9 10 108 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/21d8b39e3f641ac04e2d5068965d47f0.jpg e74a5b3b99e9e265169472d395088696 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/4fffeecf907ebcd95cc4ddff7f17cd86.pdf b8fb22da842049380c4ceefac844937f PDF Text Text INTERVIEW WITH SISTER CHARLES MIRIAM STRASSEL DATED 3/16/93 INTERVIEWER: SISTER JUDITH METZ My mother was Mary Bump, I think her father was an Englishman. She was 32 years old when she married Clarence Strassel. Her first child was born on the 30th of October probably 1907. She lost him with diarrhea which we called Summer Complaint in those days. He was only 9 months old and my mother never got over that death. She used to have his little clothes and she always cried whenever she saw them. Then three years later she had my brother Charles. She always had wanted a little girl. She was 39 when I was born, and she thought that God was very good to her. She told me that she took me and offered me to the Blessed Mother when I was baptized. I was born on June 10, 1912 at 11 o’clock in the morning and it was a Monday morning. She had her tubs out to do her wash and she said: “Clarence, put the tubs away, the baby is coming. Of course all these births were at home, so my aunt, her sister, Aunt Katie came over and helped with birth along with the country doctor who was down in Delhi. This was lower Delhi, it is now called Saylor Park and I was born in a little house 114 Meridian St. down in lower Delhi. I was named after my two grandmothers. I wish Mom would have let me have Johanna because her mother’s name was Johanna, but she called me Josephine, Catherine Josephine. She said I was always to carry that “J”, now, but I dropped the “J”, I never wrote my name that way but if you punched me out in the computer, the “J” would come up. She thought after my birth that she would lose me because they couldn’t find a formula that was agreeing with me, but finally they found a formula that agreed with me because I was very thin. She was praying very hard that she wouldn’t lose me.... anyhow, I survived. I went to St. Aloysius on the Ohio to grade school. In 1918, the time of the flu that took so many lives, it was such a terrible winter, the Ohio River froze over. The Oldenburg Sisters taught us. They took the whole school across the river, we walked across the river. Mom said: “You can’t go unless your father goes with you.” So, Dad came along and we walked across the Ohio River. She used to put pants on me that were Charlie’s so that I would keep warm. We always had a nice warm home, it was four rooms. We had no running water. It was 1939, I guess, before Mom ever got running water in the house. We had a wonderful cistern outside, the water was wonderful, very good tasting water. �2 I can remember when we were growing up that we had lamps, because there was no electricity. We had no medicines at all, so when we had a bad cold, Mom always had three barrels of wine in the cellar that she made herself. We had elderberry wine, we had grape wine, and there was another kind that we had. And if we had a bad cold, Mom would heat some wine and give it to Charlie and myself. The only medicines we had was what was thrown on the porch. But, we all survived. Dad only went to the fourth grade in school, and Mom went to the sixth grade. Mom was born in a log cabin close to the Ohio River in Northbend. Dad was born in upper Delhi. Grandpa Strassel had a big farm. The farm is where St. Atoninus is at present. I used to love to go up there and stay all night with grandma because we had to go upstairs to bed with a lamp. What impressed me was going upstairs, because we just had a four room house. Her little kitchen tablecloths were blue and white and the red and white I always liked them. They were red and white check and blue and white check. I used to love that because we didn’t have those table cloths. Grandpa would let me ride the horses bareback when he brought them to drink. Then we used to go into the barn and slide down the hay. He also had a smokehouse where they smoked their own sausage. It was a large place. Before Grandpa’s first wife died , three children were born: William Strassel, Louella Strassel and Clarence Strassel, my Dad. And then, Grandpa remarried and he had about six boys, no girls. Aunt Louella married and she had three daughters, Lillian, who became Sister Mary Donald in the Oldenburg community, and two others. Lillian entered 7 years before I did. I had been wishing that I could go with her, but I was just in grade school and I knew that I had to wait. But I really knew that I wanted to be a Sister when I was in 3rd or 4th grade. I graduated from the 8th grade at St. Aloysius in 1926. As time when on, I knew that I wanted to enter a Community, so I asked Mom if I could come to the Mount to school, because my cousin had graduated from the Academy in 1924 and I used to come up when she was here. Mom and I took a traction car to St. Joseph’s stop down here below the Mount and we walked up the steps which came out just beyond the cemetery. And so, we came up to register. For a boarder, it was $300 a year. There were also day-students. Another girl from my class came up as a day-student. She came up here by bus. There were four of us that roomed in a dormitory all four years that I was here at the Academy: Helen Kiley, Mary Sulfsted, and Mary Hesselbrock. We still are very good friends. We get together every so often. �3 WHAT DID YOUR DAD DO? My poor Dad worked on the railroad most of the time, doing the hard work. Sometimes jobs were so hard to find, he did anything he could, but he mostly worked on the railroad. During World War I, they would open the railroad cars, and people would go down there and take what they wanted out of the cars because coffee was rationed and sugar was rationed. Even though this was prohibition time, Mom used to sell her wine, and Charlie and I would deliver it. We were never caught. She was also a wonderful pie baker and she used to sell her pies also, and Charlie and I would deliver them. WHO WERE SOME OF THE SISTERS THAT YOU KNEW WHEN YOU WERE UP HERE IN THE ACADEMY? When I first came, Sister Elizabeth Seton was Directress, Sister Thomas Aquinas taught Science, and also they sent Sister Mary Leo over as a Postulant and she taught over in the Academy. Sister Mary Bernice also taught over there as a Postulant. Her sister was in the Academy, too. The second year, Sister Deodata was the “angel” that meant that she was with the girls whenever they were not in class... {here she struggled with a name... saying that this was a person with whom she had lots of fun... they were always getting into things that they weren’t supposed to}... then she remembered.... Margo (Margaret) Schmidter and I were trouble makers, I guess. At least the first year at the Academy. In the dining room we always rotated every week from one table to another. We changed our table cloths, so we could learn how to pass the dishes, we were also trained to be “ladies”. Margo Schmidter, this particular time, was sitting at the head of the table, and I was to her right. She knew I loved chocolate pudding, so instead of giving me a dish, she took the dish she had the bowl of chocolate pudding and she was filling it for me. It was getting up there to the rim of the dish, and I said:”Margo, stop now because it is going to run over.” But she kept filling it, and so I put my hand over the bowl so that she would stop, and she put it all over my hand. We had linen napkins (we always had a Sister walking up and down the dining room) so, I took the linen napkin and put it on my hand. Sister Marie Corona was the one walking up and down, and she saw this. She came over and she said: “Don’t eat it, don’t eat a bite out of that dish until I get Sister Marie Damien.” So, Margo began to cry... she could cry at the drop of a hat...So Sister Marie Damien came and gave us a talk. She said to me that I would get 50 in deportment, and I did that month. My mother wanted to know what that meant, so I told her the story. Margo Schmidter was a dear person. �4 Mom and Dad had it hard, but the first year, Mom paid for me. But, I thought if I asked the Sisters if I couldn’t work my way through so she wouldn’t have to do it. The Sisters let me. I used to come down before meals and help put the food on the table, and bring the pans in, because we washed dishes, just like the Sisters did at the table and then we would take the pans out and empty them. And then, on Saturdays I’d come down and we would take all the sugar out of the sugar bowls and wash them, also the salt and peppers, then we would refill them. We would crumb the tables after all the meals. So it wasn’t hard work at all. But anyhow I wanted to do that because it was too hard on Mom and Dad. We had a marvelous time and it was very good. One day, eight bells rang in the Academy and that meant that everybody had to go to the study hall. Sister Elizabeth Seton came in, and the desk was on a platform...the study hall was where the Rose Room is. She said, “close every door... close every window..(I was about two desks from her) and she said that Sister Deodata (who at this particular time was “angel”) had said : “I just heard a girl calling up from the first floor to the fourth floor, ‘Is Deo up there?’ She said, “ Do you know what that means? That means God. “ And she said: “That Sister, that’s all she has is her name”... and she went on and went on... And so, when I got the habit ... we did it different that year... we went in dressed as Postulants and then we got the bundle of the habit and we went out to the Novitiate and dressed and came back in. And then, they called out the names, and then on our way out we got the Constitutions. Well, I got out there and I took the bundle of the habit. The next morning, which was Easter Sunday, 1931 when I was dressing, I looked at the habit before I put it on and I thought this is all I have, no more, just this. And so, I recalled what Sister Elizabeth Seton had said that day. We had a girl in our class, her name was Hildegard Durr... once we got called in study hall for this too...she was steaming her hair and that was out of order too. But with it all, we had lots and lots of fun. In 1929 we had the hundredth anniversary of the Community. And all the girls had to go to one end of the hall on the fourth floor to give up our rooms to the Sisters who would come in for the 3-day celebration: one day was for the religious, and then one was for the public, and the other for the priests, I guess. �5 Mom always liked the Sisters of Charity because they were always out-going, and I liked that too. The Oldenburg Sisters were more reserved. I thought that if I went to Oldenburg, I would miss the Mount. Now I didn’t know Oldenburg itself, so I thought, I am going to the Mount, because I couldn’t miss Oldenburg because I didn’t know it. I graduated June 5, 1930. We always gave a class play. We had a Miss Cook who was the dramatic teacher, and the name of the play was Pharaoh’s Daughter. She picked me to play the part of Pharaoh’s daughter. I had 10 pages (I could memorize like anything in those days). She gave me 10 legal size sheets that I had to memorize. So, we practiced, and practiced and practiced. The play went OK, I found Moses in the basket. My dear little mother was there for it. After it was over, we went out to bow and all, and Mom came up and gave me a bouquet of flowers...that cost her money, and I said “Mom, you didn’t have to do that” and I kissed her. But she was always so proud of me. I was raised on much love, and I think that means so much to a person later in life. I went to S. Thomas Aquinas before I left school and I told her that I would like to enter and so she arranged for Mother Irenea to meet me in the parlor. So, I saw Mother Irenea and I told that I wanted to come in September. I knew that if I stayed home longer than September, I wouldn’t have been able to come I don’t think. Then she gave me the papers and I filled them out and I sent them back. It was only about a week later when I got papers that I was accepted. So, we did a lot of things together (Mom and I) and she got somebody to make my clothes... a dear friend down there so that I didn’t have to bring all these bolts of things because we were poor and I didn’t have to bring $100 either. Sister Thomas Aquinas had in her mind that I should take all this Science things, and I hated Chemistry and Biology I could have done without that too. But, she felt that I was fit for this and so she insisted that I take it in the Academy. And she insisted that if I wanted to be a Sister of Charity I had to take Chemistry. So I took it. And when I entered, I had to take it too. She had in mind, I guess, medical technology or something like that. I was told to be here at 3:00 o’clock in the afternoon on September 6. Now, September 6 was a Saturday, she had to teach school. So I guess that was the reason for it. So I told my Mom that I would have to be up there at 3 o’clock. I don’t even remember who brought me. I know that Mom came with me. Dad didn’t want me to come although he loved me very much. �6 So, September 6th I came in and I asked to see Sister Thomas Aquinas. They put us in the parlor and she told me that she would take me over to get dressed. There was green carpet out there in front of the chapel and no one could ever go over that green carpet so that was quite a thing for me. She took me in the back of the chapel and told me to make my offering now. So, I made my offering of my life. Then she took me upstairs to get dressed and then I went back down ( I have all these pictures of that) and I was very happy. So then we sat there for a little while and then Mom left. SO YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE THAT ENTERED THAT DAY? Yes. Somebody came in on the 7th . Julienne came before me, because I am between them in priority. Mom never missed visiting Sunday. She asked me what she should call me now. I said, “Mom, call me what you have always called me, you don’t have to say Sister.” (of course, I had had my pre-novitiate in the Academy, because we couldn’t talk after the De Profundis at twenty minutes to nine, and if you talked you had to sit out in the hall. It was almost like a novitiate in those days But, I was happy. I’ve been happy all my life because I received so much love.) WHAT WAS THAT STORY YOU TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY ABOUT THE SISTER FROM THE ACADEMY WHEN SHE FOUND OUT YOU WERE ENTERING? I came up the summer before I entered. I came up to see Sister Thomas Aquinas about my clothes and about all this other stuff. Sister Elizabeth Seton was Directress, and she was down in her office when I passed, I could see her there, because the door was kind of ajar. During our conversation upstairs, Sister Thomas Aquinas asked me if I had told Sister Elizabeth Seton. I said that I had not. We were always scared of S. Elizabeth Seton... we had to get all these permissions and we were wondering what she was going to say whenever we went into her office... so I told T.A. that I would see her when I went back down because I knew that she was in the office. She told me that that was a courtesy and that I should do so. �7 So, she was still in there, so I rapped on the door and she opened the door and said: “Oh, Catherine, how are you?” I told her that I was fine and she invited me to sit down and we talked a little bit, then I said that I had come to tell her something. I told her that I was going to enter in September and she said: “Enter where?” and I told her that I was going to enter her Community. She said: “Catherine, you’re too young, you’re too immature, you’ll never stay. You won’t stay three months” I said, “Well, Sister, I don’t know the future, but I have given this lots of thought and I’m coming to stay. I realize that I don’t know what is in store for me, but I want to come and I have thought a lot about this.” So we left it at that. I GUESS YOU PROVED HER WRONG ! Yes, I’ll be in 63 years soon. I did respect her and she was quite a lady. She’s not a person that I would “fall in love” with. I admired Thomas Aquinas very much, she was a good teacher. I, myself, was drawn to T.A. One time, before I entered, we had a riding academy down here below the Mount. I kinda wanted to ride a horse. If we weren’t dressed properly, this lady, (T.A.) had us use the back stairs. And, so, I had knickers on to go riding, and when I came back from riding, who did I meet on the stairs but T.A. And, she said : “look at you”. And I said, “I’ve always wanted to ride a horse before I entered”, and so I passed it off like that.. and that’s all she said to me. I was using the right stairs anyway. (I’m going back and forth as things come to me) And then during my novitiate they sent me over to the College and I had to take all that science stuff after the canonical year. I got the habit on April 4, 1931 and by October I had lost 50 lbs. Now I didn’t know that I had lost 50 lbs, I was too busy working and I wasn’t sick. So, one night, on my stand in the novitiate, I found a glass of milk and I thought that this must have gotten in the wrong place. It was sacred silence so I couldn’t do anything about that, so I drank it. A few days after that, Sister Mary Emma called me and told me that I was to go over to Sister Mary Carlos’ office...Mary Carlos was not a nurse, she was treasurer of the Community. I had to go up to her office, up there on the second floor. The parlor to the left as you go in the front door was the Treasurer’s Office. She told me to sit down and open my mouth, and she had a spoon that she put on the top of my tongue and told me to say ahhh, and so I did. Nobody had said anything to me, I didn’t know that I had lost weight. Then she said for me to tell Sister Mary Emma to send me to (not sure about these next few words) Giles DeCourcy?? and so I went to Giles De Courcy. �8 Little Sister Mildred, God love her, she was hardly able to walk, but she was to be my companion. I told Giles DeCourcy that I was not sick, but he examined me and told me that I had an exothalmic {spelling?} thyroid and it has to come out. I asked him to write this on a piece of paper, I have to give this to the Superior. When I came back...Mother Mary Florence was Assistant Mother, so I told her and I told Sister Mary Emma. He had also told me to see Joe De Courcy, his brother. I went to Joe and he said the same thing, an exsothalmic thyroid and it had to come out. There was no room at the Good Samaritan Hospital, so I had to wait. I was given Sister Mary Agnes McCann’s room. They called my mother and she came up, she was worried sick. I was operated on, October 6, 1931 and I’ll never be colder even when I’m put in the grave than I was on that cart going up there. I had never had anything wrong with me. My mother kept saying to my father to go faster because she was afraid I would be in the Operating Room and they wouldn’t be there. I told my Mom not to come to see me the first day, but she could come after that. I was told that the operation was done fifteen minutes. She came the next day and wanted me to go home with her to get built up again. I told her that I couldn’t do that, if I leave the Community, I could not come back. I told her that I was very happy here and that the Sisters are very good to me. I asked her to let me recuperate with them. She understood, but she came every day to see me. I was only in there about 8 days, I didn’t break my Canonical Year At the end of my Canonical Year, Mother Mary Regina, elected in 1931, came into the Novitiate to tell us what we were going to be doing the second year of Novitiate ... I think that was the first time we had a second year Novitiate...this was preparing us for what we would be doing. So, Mother Regina called everybody’s name. When she called my name she told me that I would be going to the Good Samaritan, and go into training to be a nurse. I was delighted. I had been doing a lot of fasting so that I could be a nurse, because I didn’t think I was material to be a teacher. Sister Mary Emma was giving out black veils so we could go out, but she didn’t give me a black veil, so I went up to her and said that I thought Mother had said that I supposed to go in training. Then she told me that it had been changed. Then, I asked what it had been changed to. �9 And she told me that I had to ask Sister Mary Corona. So, I went over to her office and she wasn’t there, so I went over to her bedroom. When she opened the door she said: “Catherine, how are you?” So, I told her that I was fine, and I went through all this again. Then she told me that I was going to the hospital to relieve a laboratory technologist. At that time I didn’t even know that a hospital had a laboratory technologist. So I went to college and got another semester. Then, I was a Junior in good standing when I went to the hospital. Sister Ellen, God love her, she had charge of the laboratory, and she told me to just stand there and observe. Well, it took me 10 minutes to observe and to say that I didn’t want to do this. There were 100 urines there to be examined. There was the smell of paracytology {spelling??} There were cultures, Lord, it smelled terrible. I thought to myself, I can’t do this. So, standing there, I thought that if I said anything I’d probably be sent home, I guess I could try it. I tell people now that I tried it 45 years. That was a blow that almost killed me. So, I worked with Sister Ellen. She loved me to death, I didn’t know this, but she was always so very kind to me that I didn’t know she thought that much of me until Jean Clare went in after me. As soon as Ellen saw Jean Clare, she said that she would never be a Charles Miriam. Jean Clare told me this later. Now Ignatius loved Jean Clare and I don’t think she could stand me. I thought I’d be there a year, and I got into the work even though I didn’t like it, but I thought that I could try it. That following August, I didn’t come out to hear the mission list read. I went downstairs and S. Dorothy Ann was there outside of the chapel reading this list and I said, just for fun, “is my name on that list?”and I looked over her shoulder and my Lord and my God I saw my name there. No less, to go to Colorado Springs to the Glockner That was after 6 months at Good Sam, from January to August. I then thought of my mother. It was customary to go home for a day if you were from the East and you were missioned West. So, I called my mother to tell her that I had been missioned West to Colorado Springs. That poor soul didn’t know where Colorado Springs was. I told her that it was customary that I could go home for a day before I go. I asked her which day would be good for her. She said I could go home any time. I suggested the 16th of August, the day after I came out of retreat. She said, that was fine. So, the 16th of August came and my brother came up for me. At that time we weren’t even supposed to get in a car with our brothers or fathers. It was alright to go in a taxicab not knowing the man at all, alone, that was OK. So I asked Charlie where Mom was. He said that ever since I had called Mom’s had been cleaning and cooking. He said that I was going to have to eat everything I ever liked. That was another problem. So I said,”Jesus, Mary and Joseph, don’t let anybody see me get into this car alone with my brother.” �10 I had made vows by then. I made vows in 1933 and we made them for 3 years. (back to the story of her brother and the car) I sat in front with him because I thought it was crazy to sit in the back. But, see, your family were good enough for you when you were home, but it didn’t make sense. But, anyhow, I got in with Charlie and we went home. And now, before I knew about Mom cooking all that stuff, I had asked if it was alright to eat. I was told that if they had a cold drink or some cookies I was to take it. She didn’t say a thing about a meal. When I got home, Mom had been slaving . We had always eaten at the kitchen table, the four of us, but she had the dining room all set up. She had linen napkins and the four of us were there for dinner. She had everything I ever liked. And I thought to myself, Jesus is the only one that’s here, and I’m not going to hurt my mother, I’m going to eat anything and everything. And I did. So we had this beautiful meal and then they took me back at the end of the day. We left for Colorado Springs toward the last part of August, because we got there on Retreat Sunday, the first Sunday of September. We went to Cincinnati to board the train. Earlier, I had been told that I was going alone and another Sister was going to get on in Indianapolis. She had been to visit her family. She was going to Albuquerque. Well, my mother was at the depot with this care package, all kinds of food, jellies, etc. And she asked my why I had not told her that I was going {at this point Sister’s voice got very soft, almost a whisper and could not be heard clearly}. Sister Margaret Jane had given me some tips about travelling. Margaret Jane came into my life when I went to the Good Samaritan. There were 72 nuns there at that time. After night prayers she used to wait at the door of chapel and she would invite me to go take a walk on the roof. Coming from the Novitiate, here I was with all these people around me, and there was nobody there. She was very kind to me. �11 When I got on the train, I remembered that Margaret Jane told me that the busman would come to the car and take me over to the other station because we were to transfer to the Santa Fe station. So, Sister got on at Indianapolis. She told me that she was glad she was coming with me, because she knew we would have a good time. Her name was Helen Miriam, she was a cousin of one of our Sister. But, Helen Miriam didn’t stay in the Community. Margaret Jane had told me that they give plenty of food on the train, and that if I asked for only one helping there should be enough for both of us. Well, I thought I could not do that...asking for a plate for her and then ask for only one helping?... I can’t do that... We just let things go on as usual, but when the size of the helpings came Helen Miriam said that she could not eat all of that. I told her that if she couldn’t eat it, I would eat it. Mary Carlos had only given us one berth. We had one berth for both of us to get into and we had all these clothes. She had just made her first vows and she had her good habit with her. So, I said for her to get in first, then I got in. We had to drape all these things around us, veils and all these things, in one berth. Well, some time during the night, I felt something itching me in my back. Finally, she woke up. So, I got out of the berth, covered with the curtain, and realized that it was her cap and veil, the starchy thing was scratching me. She was so upset. I asked her if she had another cap and we would go into one of these vacant rooms and I would drape your veil. So, we got up early and we went into one of those rooms and I fixed her veil. Well, there was no air conditioning in those days if you opened one of the windows on the train, you got all this soot coming in on you. I had three guimps and one was not usable because we had been in the diner one night and I spilled a cup of coffee all over myself. So, that one was gone. We were a sight to be seen when we reached Colorado Springs. We were two nights and a day on this train. I didn’t know where I was going, so if it wasn’t for signs all around in the station we would never have gotten here. DID ANYBODY MEET YOU ? Oh, yes. �12 So when we were pulling in to Colorado Springs, S. Mary Harrison who was the Superior/Administrator was there. And, if there was any woman that I dearly it was her, she was a real mother. She was a lovely lady. CAN YOU SAY SOME MORE ABOUT SISTER MARY HARRISON? She was such a sweet person, she was so dear. I was there two years, and at the end of the two years I was supposed to make my perpetual vows... in 1936... Two days before I was supposed to go to Pueblo to make my retreat and perpetual vows,I had not yet gotten the letter of permission. When Mother Regina had come before, I had knelt down and asked her to make perpetual vows. I went to Sister Mary Harrison and I told her that I had not received the letter. She asked me if had mailed it, and I said I had. Then she said that I would not have to worry. Mary was always so dear, she’d take us up in the mountains to get trees for Christmas. She was always taking us out to the mountains for picnics etc. She was very kind to all the Sisters. She was very compassionate, everybody loved her. So any how I got permission so I went to Pueblo. My mother and my brother came out for the ceremony. My father did not come, he really didn’t want me to enter. He had said that he would never come to see me, but he did. The ceremony was held at the old St. Mary’s hospital in August of 1936. Sister Jane Theresa was Superior/Administrator there. There were five us that were all from the East, but they did not bring us home that year. There was Martina, Mary Canice, Mary Jude who was on mission in Santa Fe, and it was known that she was a tubercular so she had been held back. Sister Marie Genevieve was her Superior and told her that she had to go rest every afternoon. And, because she rested, she was held back. And then there was Sister Adeline who came from St. Rita’s. Each one of us said our vows as we knelt at the Communion Rail. Sister Mary Angus Barry also made that retreat. At the end of the retreat I was missioned to Trinidad. The day I got there, we had some reading and then she (Sister Mary) rang the bell and announced that the new Sisters had arrived and she proceeded to introduce us. So, she introduced Sister Helen Miriam first and said that Sister was going on to Albuquerque, and Sister Charles Miriam is staying here to help Sister Thomas and she is also going to learn X-ray. �13 I thought to myself, I haven’t taken physics, I’ll be electrocuted, I’m sure. I was helping Sister Thomas and there was also a lay person there who was excellent at her work and she taught me everything I know about X-ray. So I was both lab tech and x-ray and I took night call when needed. To me, to be holy, was not to say anything unless somebody asked me a question. Well, that didn’t last long. I had a couple of people working for me. I had to go into the x-ray room and practice what I was going to say because I was not sure just what I was doing. The x-ray unit there at that time must have been on Noah’s ark, it was horrible. Whenever I put my foot to take a picture, it would spark over. It was a real old one. In those days, we had to take the wires down and attach them to the tube, and we had three different tubes, a 100, a 30 and a 10, according to whatever you were taking, you had to change the tube and that was different for me had never had to do that at Glockner. At times, I didn’t know whether I’d be killed or the patient on the table would be killed. So, I went to Sister Alexander who was the Superior. She was a lovely lady, she was wonderful, she loved the poor. Any how I went to her and told her that we just had to get another x-ray unit. She told me that we didn’t have any money. I asked her if I could get the money, would it be OK. And she said yes. So, I went in and out of every store in Trinidad. I don’t remember this, but Sister Agnes Patricia said that I had gone to the mines and when the men came out of the mines on pay day I would get some money. Just like our earlier Sisters did to build that hospital. Well, it was about $19,000 to get a unit I collected that amount. Everybody was so good to the Nuns, they just loved the Nuns. I went in and out of every business in town, of course, every other door was a bar but that didn’t make any difference to me. I was bold in those days, I was bold enough because we needed that unit. Well, we got the unit, it was a General Electric unit and they put it in for me, and that following August, I was missioned. I had been there from 1936 to 1940 then I was missioned to Albuquerque. There are a lot of stories about Trinidad. There a number of young Jesuit priests down there and they were so good. They needed an outlet too, so they used to come up and visit and we used to have a good time. They were wonderful guys. �14 On Sundays we would go up and teach Catechism. Mary Jude went with me and Father {name not clear} would come up and pick us up, take us to Ludlow, and Mr Brunelli would then take us (this is the twin Brunelli’s father) and he used to take us up into the mountains to this little town. When we arrived we would ring the bell and have catechism lessons right in the little church there every Sunday. Then Mr.Brunelli would bring us back down and Father would collect us from there. He took some of the other Sisters to some other little town. ABOUT HOW MANY SISTERS WERE ON MISSION AT THE HOSPITAL WHEN YOU WERE THERE? About 16 or 17. We had a cook, Sister Marie Carmel was in charge of the buying, we had a Sister in the operating room, Sister Agnes Patricia, and she would take care of the maternity also. We had a Sister on the first floor and one on the second floor and one in the pharmacy, I was in the lab and x-ray. There were so many accidents, particularly from the mines. When they would come in most of them were paralyzed. We prayed and prayed, we made novena after novena for this one man, and every day we would go in and move his toes because from his waist down, he was paralyzed. That man walked out on crutches. We always felt that it was a miracle. What would happen is that they would be bent over and the coal would hit them on their backs and necks. Most of them were paralyzed and most of them died. We had good doctors, maybe 8 or 10 on the staff. One night, it wasn’t late, Sister Agnes Patricia and I were over by the main stairs and this man opened the door. He was drunk as a lord and he had this dagger of a knife in his hand and he came toward us. Agnes was a big woman and she was strong. She took her fist and got him up underneath the chin and he fell to the floor. I thought he was dead. We had a Jesuit priest who had been Master of Novices in St.Louis and was retired. He wasn’t too well. So, I went down to get him. I asked him to come quick, that I thought this man was dead. He came down and we found that the man wasn’t dead at all, he was just relaxed. �15 One evening I was going over to supper and I heard all this commotion outside. We didn’t have a paved street in front of the hospital, we just had gravel. This car passed and they threw out this person out into the gravel and went on. I called down the hall to bring a cart and I asked for some help. We went down with the cart and we carried that guy, he was only a young fellow about 19 years old. He had been in this bar and a bullet that was not meant for him had hit him. We took him back to the operating room. His mother came and he died within an hour. That was in the 30’s but it was still like Billy the Kid days. These were such good, simple people. They were good because they were in this little town and they had just coal mining. There was an international community there. They were some from the Far East there, we had all kinds of people. HOW COME THERE WAS SUCH A DIVERSITY THERE? I don’t know. Then we had little Saint Mary’s chapel where they practiced the Eastern Rite. The priest there was so good. He just walked the streets all the time and was so good to people and helped people on the way. Whenever the Bishop would come down, we always invited this priest up to the hospital to share with the other priests. He was such a good man. When I think about all this diversion stuff, that if you don’t do this you don’t belong to Rome, I can’t figure out all that stuff. The people were simple and good and they showered us with good home-made wine, with all kinds of food that they would bring in. It was just like a big family. There was Frankie Mayo {[not sure of this name} who was going with this girl. While they were courting each other, Frank would drive the truck up into the mountains to get trees about the 1st of December and “kinnikenic??” that would grow on the ground. It had red berries on it. We went up in a car while Frank took the truck. We had these great big thermoses of chili so we could have something to eat on the way. We would put the trees in the truck. We often had about 100 trees. We would chop down our own trees and yelled “lumber” when they were falling and then slide on down. Then we sat down and ate this chili and rolls. We also took thermoses of water to drink. We would get 10 or 12 bags of this “Kinnikenic” and we would start making wreathes down in the basement of the hospital. All the Sisters would come and Frankie Mayo and Kathy would come. They weren’t married yet. Every door in that hospital had a wreathe on it. �16 Sister Corolla, she came from {Kings???} I don’t know what nationality she was. She had charge of the chapel. She would simply bank the trees behind the altar and all around. Our chapel always looked beautiful Father Bob Derouen, a Jesuit, was born and raised in Trinidad. As a young kid, heused to come up and serve Father Garcia’s Mass. When we get together with Father Derouen we always had a lot of fun because we knew him as a kid. One time I wanted to get some red peonies for the feast of the Sacred Heart. And so, a couple of ladies who were good friends of ours suggested that we go to the cemetery. So we went down to the cemetery and we took one or two off of each grave and we had lovely peonies for the altar for the Lord. END OF TAPE #1 TAPE #2 When I was in Albuquerque, I always thought that it was nice to do things together, so we would put on a Christmas Play. All the nuns would come and they would just love this. It was good for the kids and they still talk about this when I go down there to Albuquerque. I think if I hadn’t entered I would probably go into dramatics because when I was in the Academy we had a lady who taught dramatics, Miss Cook, I often wonder what happened to her. Once, for our class play, she selected Pharaoh’s Daughter {see reference on page 5} While in Albuquerque, I had a bad asthmatic girl who came from Peoria, Illinois who came to work with me in this school and become a medical technologist. She finished and then married a pathologist from Lovelace Clinic. { here there is an aside about the Doctors who formed Lovelace Clinic especially a Doctor McKinnon.} Together, we had a nice relationship and we had a lot of fun together. But, they were real gentlemen. �17 Even today there were a number of people (maybe about 10) who worked with me in the schools and some of the regular students are still in Albuquerque. Some of them are just now retiring. There was one student in particular, Frances Harlan who came there. When she came to register, she was so much older than I was, I thought she was old enough to be my mother. She had been in the service and all and so I thought about taking her or not. So I did, and Frances Harlan always kept up with me. She would send me a little bit of money now and then. And then, the last five or six years she used to send me a check. She would want to know how much the plane fare would be so she would send me a check and I would go down there and stay a couple of weeks. She would get the others all together and we would go out to lunch together. This went on for the last five or six years, I guess. She passed away August of last year, but I got to see her last year. I went down and I went out twice to see her. She was 90 years old last July. One day I did ask her why she had always kept up with me. And she said that I had changed her life. She had never married. After she died she was cremated and her ashes were sent to Flint, Michigan where she was from. She had become a very dear friend. Once I noticed that she never went to receive Holy Communion and I asked her about, and she said: “Well, Sister, I don’t want to be a hypocrite, I just can’t go along with all the Holy Father does” I told her that I thought that all of us have something that we don’t agree with. But Jesus wants us to come to him. HOW MANY STUDENTS DID YOU HAVE FOR EACH SCHOOL? I would only accept 2 or 3 students in X-ray school each year and the same with the lab because in the lab we had pretty close quarters there so I only took about 3 or 4. There were a number of them from the University of Kansas. One of the students was Marguerite Block. I haven’t been able to find her again. Some of these people that I thought a lot of, I would always try to trace them down. In 1954 I was missioned to Kenton of all places. I went there on a train and I told the Conductor that he would have to call that place out when we get there because I have no idea where I am going. Sister Theodore was Superior/Administrator there and she met me at the train. It was a 75 bed hospital, and we had mostly injuries from the road and also from agricultural accidents. I had the lab, x-ray and blood bank there. I found it hard to get acclimated to that little place, because I was used to everything going so fast. �18 Sister Agnes Patricia had the Operating Room, Sister Gertrudis was there at the time. There was a nice little chapel. The people were just lovely, just humble people and good people. It was not a Catholic place. However, we did have across the street the Immaculate Conception parish, and our Sisters were there. Formerly, they had their own convent, but now they lived with us at the hospital. Sister Francis Solano was the Principal of the school; Ruth Beris (John Claire) came there out of the Novitiate; Patrice Vales came. I always said that I helped raise John and Patrice. HOW MANY SISTERS WORKED IN THE HOSPITAL? About 6, I guess, we had two floors and we had a pharmacy, the operating room, and the lab and x-ray. It couldn’t have been more than 6 Sisters. Sister Mary Lambert had the kitchen. Every year they had this big fiesta thing in August. After each one of them, Mary Lambert would start to prepare her noodles and freeze them. The big dish there was chicken and noodles. And we had this “fiesta”, you wouldn’t believe... the line to get this food was four blocks long. When I first got there I asked what Sister Theodore wanted me to do... and she said to just keep the line moving. There were tables out there where they ate. You wouldn’t believe the number of people that came to this big fundraiser for the hospital. Sister Mary Stephanie made so many things for that and she always came there to work in the summer-time preparing for this. She was the light of life there. Every other word you had to laugh at her. She was a wonderful person she certainly knew how to live life. I was there only one year. One day we all went to the Community Room for the opening of the mission letter. Agnes Patricia’s name was called out first, and then she called mine. I was dumbstruck, I had only been there for one year. Agnes was going to Albuquerque, and I was going to Corwin where we had just gotten there. Celestia went there the same year that I did, in 1955, and we had 12 Sisters there. Sister Helen Eugene was the Superior, Mary Joachim was there. You never saw such a lab (this was at the old Corwin). That was an experience that can never be taken away, it was a hard experience. Later, Sister Grace Marie was sent there. I was there 3 ½ years. At one time you had a 200 bed hospital, and then overnight (it seems) you had a 400 bed hospital. We didn’t know our way around the place. It was a very good learning experience this transition. It was for me and I know it was for the others. �19 I believe in life that each experience that you have today prepares you for tomorrow. We brought all these different groups of people to show them around. Grace Marie was just a devil, but I liked her, you couldn’t help but like Grace Marie. Nobody in the Community could have made that transition like she she did. The problem of making the two staffs of St. Mary and what was Corwin blend, they were at swords point all the time. I guess that part of it was competition. Grace Marie had a wonderful personality and one that drew people. In those days you still had to go down to her office to ask for some toothpaste. I thought that was the craziest thing. They hadn’t started putting stuff out in the cupboard yet. She was good to the nuns. Whenever she could she always had a big party for the Sisters. {an aside} every once in a while I would find a bottle of beer on my bed at night. Course, she knew we were both German. She was very personable. The convent was a residence facing Lake Avenue. We had a nice group of Sisters there. More came every year. We had the Community Room in the basement. There was a Sister named Sister Mary Lawrence , she later left the Community. She was from Nebraska. She had the x-ray department in St. Mary’s, then came over to Corwin and she had the x-ray department there. She was a very nice person. I really would like to get in touch with her. I had the lab, a very big lab, and also I had the morgue on my floor. There was one time, that I just couldn’t go in there, the person had been decapitated, and I felt that I didn’t need to see that. We had a pathologist there and I could get along with him pretty well. Later they brought another pathologist in. He was Jewish and he brought his own supervisor of the lab and so I thought I would not be there. After 3 ½ years I was missioned. But before that time, though, one Christmas, I was on this committee for fixing the Community Room. Sister Mary Lawrence was on the committee too, and she was very artistic. Sister Mary Joachim was on it, and myself. We thought we would use the theme “O Little Town of Bethlehem”. So, we got these past-board boxes and S. Mary Lawrence cut them out as houses and she made them so that the top could come off, we covered them with contact paper. We had all these houses different. So, we had at one end, the little town of Bethlehem. All our little presents, like towels and other things that we used to get went inside of the houses and we had each Sister’s name on the door of the house. �20 Sister Mary Joachim was very good at things like this, she covered the walls. We had a thousand stars hanging from the ceiling... we cut out a thousand stars.... Along the three walls we hung brown paper and Joachim painted palm trees on this paper. After we got all finished we had a three dimensional thing. Then we got little animals, we had a light behind red paper so it would look like a fire, then we had a little water for the animals. Before the Sisters came in, we dropped some dry ice in there so that the thing would bubble up. In those days, you first went to get the Superior when it was all ready. She just couldn’t get over how this was. We used to take great pride in fixing our Community Room. So, I suggested that the Sisters sing “O Little Town of Bethlehem” as they came in.... there were about 20 Sisters there at that time... This whole thing is something that I will never forget. Then, I was sent back to Trinidad. Gertrude Ann took my place in Pueblo. I had lasted 3 ½ years, but she lasted on 6 months. She and I get together once in a while and talk about that. She said she didn’t know how I stood it for 3 ½ years. In Trinidad they were having difficulty, but I just went back to my old place, which I just loved. I was there from 1958 to 1964. That was the time that Margaret Lois had been with the Benedictine Sisters and her time was up with them. She was a person whom, I think, was very misunderstood. She was sent home at that time {at this point the chronology gets a little confusing} {she speaks of S. Margaret Lois...???Sister Carol Marie Boggs???} At that time, too, Sister Agnes Patricia was there, Sister Jeanne Roach, S. Lucia Mao, S. Bernard Marie was the Administrator. S. Cornelius had been Administrator for a little while, then Bernard Marie (she was wonderful). A few thoughts here about Sister Remy (not sure of this name) who was very sick there she would never let herself be at ease. All these changes in the habit bothered her because she had such a long neck. When we took away the guimpe and had just a little collar, she just had a fit because her long neck showed. I’m glad that she wasn’t around when we did the rest of it because the changes were just terrible for her. We never had any money, so what was in the pancakes on Shrove Tuesday we (Sister Jeanne Roach and I) would keep and we would save it till summer time when it would be so hot. There was a coke machine in the back by the emergency room and we would just love to go get a coke and sit there and just love it. �21 I remember that is where I was when President Kennedy was killed. I also remember that that was when I volunteered for Peru. But, I wasn’t chosen and I was so disappointed. I just couldn’t understand what criteria they used to choose people. When Sister Rose Adelaide’s name came out I was very surprised. She was a perfectionist and I didn’t think that we would send anybody to South America who is a perfectionist. Amadea was also in Trinidad at that time. She had the pharmacy. In 1963 I had a slipped disc in my back. I went to Albuquerque for that surgery and I was there about 3 months. I had somebody in the lab while I was away. Carmella Riggio, sister of our Sister Rosalie Riggio was there for a long time. When I came back from my surgery, S.Mary Clare was there as Superior. She told me that Mother Mary Omer was in Santa Fe and she wanted to talk to me. Mother Mary Omer told me that Sister Margaret Lois was now in charge of the lab in Trinidad and I was to do just what she wanted me to do. I never had any trouble with Margaret Lois, she and I got along. Then I knew that I would be missioned in August. I was missioned to Dayton. To send a person who just had a back operation to Dayton, to the x-ray department and then to tell you not to lift. Well, there was no one around to do the lifting. We had 150 people a day and we had 3 machines to do this in. I was sent there to upgrade the x-ray school. It was in very poor condition when I went there. Sister Regina Marie had been there and she still was there when I arrived. I’m telling you, to try to get the school together and the department was no fun. The radiologists didn’t appreciate me, because I had all this experience and they didn’t want anybody to interfere with them. What they wanted was to lease these departments (lab and x-ray). So anyhow, I was there 6 years and I got the school running . There was a girl there who helped me, Jeannie Littleton, she was a technologist there. I just contacted her in Dayton lately and she is coming down here to see me. I haven’t seen her for over 20 years. I was in Dayton from 1964 to 1970 and I felt that I had been sent to do the school. At that time, Amadea invited me to go to Trinidad to take a government job with senior citizens. I said that I had no idea what to do with senior citizens. At that time, I was 58 and growing closer to being a senior citizen myself �22 Mr. Ford was the Administrator in Dayton. S. Anna had been put out to get a man in there. And they got this man, Mr. Ford. Anna was sent to Mt.Clemens. After Anna left, Sister Marie Therese was there. She was coordinator of the Sisters. Romana called me one day because Regina Marie had been missioned back here to the Mount, she had been in x-ray when I went there. Mother Romana just raked me over the coals and told me that I was not to say anything about Sister Regina, never to do that to a Sister, and I hadn’t. One day, the phone rang, and it was for me. It was Mr. Ford who said that he would like to see me in his office. So I went down. He said that he had had a call from someone this morning, no less than the Mother General. She wanted to know if the school would be hurt if I were sent to Trinidad. He also told me that I was not to discuss this with anybody and he wanted me back at 8:30 in the morning to give my decision. So I thought about it and I felt that this Doctor wants to get me out... but this is my hospital, and I’m not going to go until I’m ready. So I went down at 8:30 and I told him that “yes” I thought the school would be hurt if I left right now, because there is no one to take my place. END OF SIDE 1 OF TAPE #2 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// SIDE 2 OF TAPE #2 Sister Agnes Patricia used to take care of the OB patients. One day I went up to get blood from somebody, a door opened as I was going down the hall, and this man walked out. He was stark naked except he had his hat on and a tie. He was suffering from the DT’s. I yelled for Leonella and she came and got him back in the room. .... all these funny things happened... One night I was up to do a blood count, x-ray or something and Agnes Patricia asked if I would mind helping her. She had a patient who was ready to deliver. So, I went up and I told her to tell me what to do. This woman kept saying “20...20...20” I asked what did she mean... I was told that this was her 20th child.... these stories always stuck in my mind. Sister Agnes Patricia was an excellent nurse and often had to deliver babies by herself, there were no doctors around. �23 Mother Regina made a visit one day and she was told by this Sister who was an anesthetist, that she had seen S. Agnes Patricia walking down the hall eating an apple. And, of course, she got crushed by Mother Regina... we weren’t allowed to let people know that ate. Some days we would go for 48 hours and not get any sleep. We were happy though, and everybody gelled into a real community. Those were happy days. I lived with S. Leonella while she was Superior there. She was an excellent nurse. One day, this accident was brought in, it was a whole wedding party. They were from Aguilar, a little town next to Trinidad, about 15 or 20 miles up the road, but they wanted to be married at Holy Trinity. Father Sebastiani was waiting for the wedding party down there and he called up to find out where they were. There were one or two killed in this accident. The bride just had a few scratches on her, I don’t remember about the groom, whether he lived or not. But that was a bad situation. One night three men were brought in, they were all Italian. They were shooting each other over a nickel. All three died that night. We called the priest. And while I had one on the operating table, I knew that there three bullets, but I could only find one hole. He had been shot right up the rectum. We had an awful lot of accidents. WERE YOU THERE WHEN THEY WERE HAVING SO MUCH TROUBLE WITH THAT ONE DOCTOR. I was there when he was in medical school... Dr. Donnelly, he worked with two other doctors, Doctor Newburn was one, he was a pathologist. Donnelly was a good guy. He was very good to people. I didn’t know him when all of that mess was going on. One day, after I had left Trinidad, I went back for a visit and I went to see him. You would have thought his mother had walked in. I had such a good relationship with him. I was there when he was married to a nurse who was from Denver. I liked her a lot. So, I knew him in a different light. Later we had two, father and son, Doctors Espys, who were both Doctors. They did not stay long, the father died and young Espy went up to Denver to work. �24 DID YOU HAVE A LOT OF NON-PAYING CASES THERE, THAT MADE IT HARD TO SUPPORT THE HOSPITAL? I didn’t know much about the financial affairs. When I was down in South Texas, a busload of us went up to Austin to the Capital and we asked for a package for the indigent people who were in health care. Four or five buses went up that time... and we got it. But, to know more about the business office in Trinidad, you would have to speak to Sister Mary Frances Dempsey who worked in that office at one time. In 1940, I was missioned to Albuquerque and I felt like I was going to the guillotine because I had heard so many things about these pathologists and radiologists and I had both lab and x-ray there. When I got there, there was a fracture room that I had to take care of. I was there from 1940 to 1954, so I was there through World War II. Talk about getting from the flame to the fire. We had the only emergency room open 24 hours a day. So many accidents happened on Highway 66 that goes east and west. I often asked why we had not built the hospital out there on this highway to save time. The pathologists and radiologists were Canadian and we always were short of help. It seemed that we always had money for something, but we never seemed to have money to get help. I took most of the night calls. My mother came out to see me in 1941. She hadn’t been feeling well. My cousins brought her out and they went on to California. I met her in Albuquerque and she was there about three weeks with me. One Saturday morning, she had a coronary and stroke at the same time, and she died a week after that. That was the way she wanted it, she wanted to be with me. The Sisters and everybody were wonderful to me. When your mother dies, it’s part of you that goes. I had been supposed to make the Albuquerque retreat and she died on the 25th of July and we came back on the train because we weren’t flying in those days. It took us two days and a night to bring the body home. Sister Margaret Jane was Superior and she came with me. The funeral was on the 30th. I had to get back down to Albuquerque, but I had a whole house to clear out. Dad was no help to me, Charlie was no help to me. Sister Helen Agnes went down with me. Mother Regina told me that I could go to my mother’s funeral...but I never thought that �25 I wasn’t going to my mother’s funeral. I had to be back down in Albuquerque for the 6th of August. I just didn’t know what to do with Mom’s stuff, she had so many wonderful things. I just didn’t have anybody to talk to. I had been in the Community 10 years, yet, I just didn’t feel that I could talk to anybody about it. But I did pack her dishes and I brought them up here. And, I was told to put them outside of that auditorium down there, and I’ve never seen them since. They were antiques and I wanted to go up to what used to be the library, where the stairs going up to the third floor, to see if they are there. But I never did. For the rest, I just called the St. Vincent de Paul and they took all into their store in Cincinnati. I felt that that was the only thing I could do. My mother is buried in the cemetery in Cleves where Dad is buried there, and grandma and grandpa are buried there. Mom’s two brothers were buried there. Sister Maria Fidelis took me there not too long ago. While I was at St. Joe’s in Albuquerque, a Father Fitzgerald, a Holy Ghost Father, got permission from Rome to establish this place for priests who drank and who had other problems... Villa Coeli. He also organized a Community while I was in New Mexico. He was a diabetic so he would come in to the hospital and he wouldn’t let anybody touch him except myself to draw blood. He had very small veins. He thought when he was establishing this, that he could do it all spiritually with not anything medical, but he found out that he couldn’t do this. A Doctor Roe went up there to help him. The idea was that they were going to have a clinic. They were going to take care of the medical part of the priests’ problems. But that didn’t work out. They really needed a doctor and sometimes a hospital. I just can’t imagine what is in the news today saying that this a place for bad priests. They are not bad priests, they are human priests. Many of them have been rehabilitated. The Community of Sisters who were there helping, didn’t have anything to eat. Some of them were nurses. So, to help out, we employed them so that they could have something to eat. They were considered part of St. Joe’s staff while they were waiting for the clinic to be finished. When these Sisters first started, they didn’t have a habit or anything, they would come in as nurses and work just like any other nurse would and be paid like anybody else would. They had to have some money coming in some place. One of the Sisters is named after me, Miriam Charles. She was in charge of the clinic in Santa Fe for a while. When they first came, only about three or four, they went to a Benedictine Convent to make their Novitiate. Now, they wear a wine colored habit and a white veil. Mother Bernadette, was made their Mother General, went through Seton School of Nursing in Colorado Springs. Later she got cancer, she died She died at St. Joe’s �26 Before she died, I wrote her a letter. And I still have the letter she wrote to me. I might give it to them someday. Mother Mary Joseph is presently Mother General. In the early 50’s I started a school of medical technology, and x-ray technology there. They were the first of those schools in the state of New Mexico. I have the original papers and other newspaper clippings. I’ll give them to the Archives. We also had the first blood bank in the state of New Mexico. The military came in trucks and busses and I would take their blood. The only way that you could keep a blood bank full was to put it on the radio. And sometimes the line was from the second floor down to the first floor of the old St. Joe’s hospital. Sometimes I’d be taking blood until 2:00 o’clock in the morning. But, we had to do that in order to keep the bank supplied. Some of the little hospitals in some of the little towns in New Mexico would call me, and I would call the police and I would send them the blood. Then there was a plane, it was called Citizens of Something that some times took blood to these small places. I started the first school of Medical Technologists in the state of New Mexico and the first organization of x-ray technology. These were state organizations. After I had been in the Community 16 years, I was allowed to go to the American Society of Medical Technologists Convention and X-ray Technologists Convention, too. What I learned there I would bring back and start it right away. Like, we went from rabbits in the pregnancy tests to frogs which you could find out about the pregnancy within a half hour. Now, they have all these different kinds of tests. In 1939 I came back here (Cincinnati) and I took Genetics courses and I went back to Trinidad. Somebody gave me a crookedneck white rabbit and a mate to go with it (the other one wasn’t crookedneck) so I wanted to know how many of their offrspring would be crookednecks because it was a deformity. I used to raise these rabbits, and they would come fast. The men in Trinidad would make me these boxes to keep these rabbits in. Father Ryan, who was a Jesuit, came out from the New York province because he wasn’t too well, and they gave him the job to help the poor. So, I would give him all these rabbits to give out for meat, because rabbit is good. �27 We always had an annual State Fair and I used to always have a booth, whether it was to advertise my school, or whether the students would go out and type blood for nothing, giving people a little card saying what their blood type was. One day, I walked around to see other booths and in one of them this man had ducks. You had to throw nickels on saucers and if you got a nickel on a saucer, you got a duck. Deep down in my heart I didn’t think that I should throw those nickels on that saucer because I didn’t think it looked too religious. So I stood there and just watched. Then, this man came over to me and asked me if I would like a duck and I said that I would love one. So, I took this duck home. This was in Albuquerque. I took this duck to the lab and I put it in a box. Later I got a galvanized tub and the men made me a screen to put over it so that the duck couldn’t get out. This little duck made a lot of noise. One student suggested that if we had another duck, that one duck wouldn’t make so much noise. She offered to go to the fair and bring me another duck, so she brought me another duck. They didn’t make any noise but they grew, and they grew, and they grew, so I couldn’t keep them in the lab anymore so I took them outside, but I had a problem of keeping them together. So, I thought I would take them up on the roof of the hospital. The roof of the hospital was gravel and tar. So they grew and they grew and they grew. None of them ever flew off, though. Whenever people would come to work at seven o’clock in the morning, you could hear these ducks...they made so much noise even though there were just two. Sister Mary Jude was Superior at this time. I got a telephone call one day and it was her asking me to come to her office right now. When I got down there, she asked me if I had ducks on the roof, and I admitted that I had. She told me that I had to get rid of them. So I suggested that I could have a duck dinner for the Sisters. She agreed. I asked for some money, because, we had 25 Sisters and I didn’t think two ducks would go around. So she said I could have the money. Agnes Patricia and I went down town and got more duck. So I knew that we couldn’t bother the big kitchen so we had our big dinner at Regina Hall. I got a duck stamp to stamp each napkin, and I got duck planters as prizes, and I had a duck movie and I asked the Doctors to give me their decoys. I took the silver paper that we get in x-ray and I had these decoys going from the door into the dining room. The nuns had so much fun when we had this meal on January 6. So year after year on January 6 we had a duck dinner as long as I was there. Everything was just ducky. �28 One day, I was called to x-ray a dead body that had just been dug up for a murder investigation. This body, a young man, had been buried for three weeks, and the odor was terrible, they took a sheet and dipped in formaldehyde and threw it over the body. I had to be in there because it was my department but the doctors did the preparation, and I took the picture and we saw where the bullet was. This was another thing which I never forgot. We had to do all sorts of things, whether we knew how to do them or not. For instance some of the times the doctors would have to give some anesthetic and they would have us “drop that ether”. I had never dropped ether before and I told the doctor that I didn’t know anything about this and I didn’t want to kill this person. But we were told to drop just a bit for the person to go out so that they could fix a bone. After my mother died, I knelt by my bed one night and prayed: “Mom, I don’t think that I can do this much longer”. I was called maybe four or five times a night all the time. Then I would work all day. The following August, I was missioned to St. Mary’s, Pueblo. But, the doctors, when they heard I was going, they all went to the Superior and told her that I couldn’t go because I did an enormous amount of work there. Four or five days after that I was told to stay. I stayed until 1954. Somebody told me that Sister Eugene Marie had said that I was the best technologist in the Community. Once, a group of us, S. Eugene Marie, Regina Marie, Carol Marie, Jean Hickey, and myself went a whole month to meet with these nationally known men who had done work with the RH factor. We went to Buffalo, New York City, New Jersey, there were five places that we went to as a group. We stayed about a week at each place. They were just wonderful to us. It was good to learn about how they came to find this and all about it. It meant a lot to us. END OF SIDE2 OF TAPE #2 �29 BEGINNING OF TAPE #3 I got a call from S. Amadea who said she needed me to come back to Trinidad. The government wanted to hire somebody for Senior Citizens. I said that I didn’t think I knew anything about Senior Citizens, but she assured me that I could do it. (May 1970)—So, I went to Trinidad . This was 150 miles that I had to serve in all these little towns. So, I thought, I’ll take a town one by one. So I went to Walsenburg which was the biggest place. I got in touch with the person who was working for the government in that area and asked that person to call a meeting of Senior Citizens to see if anybody was interested in things to be done for senior citizens. I think there were 12 people who came to the meeting. I asked them what they needed here. They said that they needed a place to come and socialize and play bingo or play cards or whatever. So, we decided that group of women would do the cooking for the dinner and that we begin by charging only fifty cents and then have bingo. I remember that we had 50 people there. I brought the prizes, like practical stuff like paper towels, sugar, flour, things that they could use in their homes. They had a wonderful time. We had a meeting after the bingo to see if there was anything that the people wanted to say. So, we started once a week. Every Tuesday we had this social time, and they just loved it. So, then, I took on Aguilar which was maybe 15 or 20 miles away from Walsenburg, so that was smaller. I called this meeting and I think I had 2 or 3 people who came. We talked and they thought that they wanted that same thing. So, we got that started. We did that on another day. I went to all these things now. Some of them had to be in the evening. Then I branched up 28 miles up into Gardener. This was in the mountains west of Walsenburg. Gardener was almost a skeleton city at this time. There were a lot of elderly people there. They even had a little church there and they had a priest who would stay there. I went there and asked them what they needed. They said that they needed a grocery store because one went bankrupt and the other one was burned down. There was a skeleton building there that had never been finished. So, because I worked for the government, I could go to Pueblo and get all of this stuff to finish this building for free. So, I would go up in a truck where I could get this stuff, and luckily four hippies came in to live there. They were nice fellows. I made a deal with them. I said that I would give them food if they would help me build this building. I would get all the stuff for them. �30 They would tell me what they needed. I would write this down and go off in my truck. I would bring a load down and the guys would work diligently, and I gave them food. So, this went on and the building was finished. I started a grocery store there. I used to go around to all the discount places, even if I could just get things down five cents for the poor people, they were satisfied with that. I stocked this store and I had to get somebody else to run it, because I was busy setting up all these other places. I got a respectful person, Josephine, who lived in Walsenburg to run it. She only lived about 28 miles away and she could do that. The store would be open just so many hours. WHERE DID YOU GET THE MERCHANDISE? DID YOU BRING IT IN? I did. And I only had a little Gremlin. When I started this, I called Assunta and I said that I needed a car. I didn’t drive at this time, so Frankie Mayo taught me to drive. When I went to this place to get this car, they had just got this lettuce green Gremlin with a white stripe around it. Of course, I didn’t know that this was a sports car, but it was a car. I learned to drive it, it was good on gas, it had a rack on top. I would get milk and bread, some meat, staple foods. Sometimes I would bring a cake or whatever. I would ask them what they needed. There were a number of these places in Trinidad, these discount places and I would buy this stuff with my money... the government’s money... and I would get whatever they needed. This went on as long as I was there, but nobody else would do this after I left. After that I went to Sopras toward the mountains near the Purgatory River. I went there and did the same thing. They wanted to socialize, so I set that up for them. Then I went East which was 75 miles from Trinidad. There were two towns to which I went there and set up this socializing thing. I went to everyone of these things, some of this had to be at night. Then there was another little town by the mountains which they call “the breasts” because there are two peaks there and there is a little town there, so I set things up there. DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING IN TRINIDAD ITSELF? Trinidad had its own. They were kind of “up-ish” people but I tried to work with them, and I became good friends of theirs. �31 So, after two years, I thought that we should have something big. So, I asked the Bishop of Pueblo if he would come down and have a Mass at the stadium. I had arranged buses to go to all of these places and bring these people in for the Mass. I had one person from every place to bring up an offertory procession what was indicative of their little place. Some of them brought up a piece of coal, whatever. I invited the Trinidad group to be the hospitality people. This was held in the stadium and it was full. The mariachi people did the music. It was a real Spanish celebration and it went over big. The presider was Bishop Buswell. The mariachis came down from Pueblo to do the music and everything went very well. This was the big culmination of setting up the whole project. The stadium was packed. At this point I thought that I was just babysitting here. The Executive Council wanted to know who was going to take my place. But I didn’t think that that was my responsibility. I then applied to go to South America BEFORE YOU START WITH SOUTH AMERICA, MAY I ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS? YOU WERE LIVING WITH S. AMADEA ALLTHIS TIME, COULD YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT HER? Well, she was more heart than prudence. For instance, if you ever rode in a car with Ami, you prayed like the dickens that she wouldn’t be hit. She would go like a snail. She would pick up every hitchhiker. I tried to warn her that all were not good. But just she just said that God would take care of her. Whenever she met a poor person on the street who asked her for some money, she would give them $50 or something. I told her that I thought the money ought to go where it would be used right. She said that he had promised to give it back to her. Of course I was sure that he wouldn’t give it back to her... and he didn’t give it back to her. But, Ami was so good, if she didn’t go to heaven in a hanging basket, I don’t have a chance. She contracted a circulatory disease that is hereditary. Her sister had it and died, her sister Dorothy had it and died after Ami did. Ami, in the cold weather her poor little hands would become all blue. She couldn’t really take care of herself. She and I lived together and Jean Therese lived there with us, Florence, Ami and myself. Towards the end she couldn’t even dress herself and Florence was so good to her. Still, she drove this car and I was scared to death that she would be killed in it. But, everybody knew Ami and they would just get out of our way when they saw her coming. She was one of the sweetest people. She was always affirmative with the people with whom she worked. And the people that she met and gave things to, she never thought bad of anybody. �32 One day I was looking for a place to set up a used clothing store. The place I found was on the main street of Trinidad. I went to the owner and asked him how much he wanted for rent and he said $150 a month. Well, I didn’t have a cent, but I said I would take it believing that God would come through. The senior citizens would make various things, I would take them in and give them the money back. People brought all kinds of nice things, shoes, dresses, etc. We got old mannequins from the stores etc. Nobody ever said no to us. It became a real nice store. I had to get somebody to help me run it, because I was doing so many things and out on the road. At the end of the first month, I asked the lady, Mrs. Ortega, how much money did we have. She said that we had $300 and therefore, I felt that we had enough to pay our rent. This project went on until I left Trinidad for good. Theophane took it over I think. A word about Theophane... she was just like Amadea... she would give money to anyone who asked for it. At one time, she didn’t have a job and she called me from Pueblo and asked me if she could help me in Trinidad. I invited her to come down and I knew that she could do something there. Betty Davis didn’t have anything to do either and I invited her down also. I gave them different places to go and take care of that would relieve me a bit. Sometimes I would be traveling at 12:30 at night coming home from those far eastern parishes. I never was afraid, I just locked the car door. HOW LONG WERE YOU THERE THAT TIME...IN TRINIDAD? Two years... in two years I set up seven centers, a used clothing store and a grocery store. By that time I was just babysitting. That is when I asked to go to South America in August of 1972. In June of 1972 I drove my car from Trinidad to the Motherhouse. I expected to go to Ecuador in September. But, we had our first Congress that year so I stayed for that. While I was in Cincinnati, I stayed at St. William’s and they gave me the goingaway service there. Father Bob Strassel was there and he had the service and all the missionaries who happened to be in Cincinnati at the time participated. After the Congress, I went down to New Orleans waiting for the ship to go out because I was booked to go on the GULF BANKER, which is a cargo ship (freighter). Sister Stephanie drove me from St. William’s with all this stuff that I was taking. I had sent down all the equipment and things from St. Williams to New Orleans on the Greyhound bus and they kept that there in their warehouse until I arrived and was ready to board ship �33 The day before I was to board I was called. I got a truck and two men and we went down to the warehouse where the men put everything into the truck and we took it down to where we were to board. I boarded the next day. We never have to pay anything if they don’t put it down in the hold of the ship. They had an extra cabin, and they filled my room from floor to ceiling. So none of it had to go in the hold. The ship only had room for 13 passengers. One particular couple had a gentleman who was ill with a terminal disease and she was taking him on this voyage clear around the western side of South America. She was so distraught with this, so she used to come in our cabin and cry. There is always two to a cabin and I had a nice young lady there. They give you the service on these freighters like you would have in a hotel. They change your bed every day, they would have fruit on a table in the center of the room. And every place that they stopped to leave cargo, we were given enough time to go to the surrounding places and visit. They would post eight hours before the ship would leave so we had plenty of time. When we got to Columbia, it was so hot there that I thought I would just collapse. So we went to a place to eat our meal where I had a real cold beer, and it never tasted better to me in my life than it was with that meal. We went to Calle which was two hours away in Columbia. We never knew where we were going to stop, so I feel like I have been in every port in Columbia. DID YOU GO THROUGH THE CANAL? We went through the Canal and that was another lovely experience. It takes 8 hours to go through, and we went through half by day and half by night (darkness). It is just marvelous to see how that water comes in from that lake and raises that heavy ship to the lock.... there’s three locks. There was one lane going south and another going north... we would wave to the people on the other ships going north as we were going south. We stopped at Cristobal where we could get all kinds of drinks that were tax free and every that one buys is tax free, so I got a beautiful tablecloth for one of my cousins, a linen tablecloth for nearly nothing. At one stop we went up and found a church and went to Mass there. For me it was the first time traveling that way and I was all eyes and ears. It was a beautiful experience. If anybody can get a freighter and go through the canal it is well worthwhile. �34 HOW LONG WAS THE VOYAGE FROM NEW ORLEANS TO WHERE YOU WERE GOING? Well, you could never have an appointment at the other end, because you have to stop at all these places where they have cargo; you have to go with the tides in the ports, some have strikes etc. Well, we were supposed to leave New Orleans and in 10 days we would be in Ecuador. But, I never had that happen to me. Once I was aboard ship for a whole month. The cost was very reasonable. I only paid about $375 to go down. The first time it took me about 17 or 18 days. I kept in touch with the place where I was going, so that the Sisters could meet me when I arrived. I was scheduled to go to El Puyo with Dominican nuns who had a clinic there. They were supposed to meet me. Well, I had all this stuff and had to be very careful to stay with all the boxes, I got off and then I followed the boxes The Sisters were waiting with a jeep there. HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR MISSION? I corresponded with different relief efforts, and this was a relief that was stationed in Santa Barbara. I even went to Santa Barbara to see these people. They place you but they don’t give you any money to carry on. They knew about this place that needed a medical technologist to start a laboratory. DID YOU SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT YOU WANTED TO BE IN A PLACE WHERE THERE WERE OTHER SISTERS? No, but as I was a Sister they kind of placed me there. These were not Ecuadorian Sisters, they were American... Dominican Sisters. Two of them were there, one was a nurse and the other taught school. The monastery of Dominicans that was in Guayaquil is the place where the ship took us. The priests had a monastery there and when the Sisters came down from the mountains, they would have a place to stay. We only stayed there overnight. The next day we hade a 10 hour ride in this jeep to where we were going, El Puyo. �35 DID YOU SPEAK SPANISH? Buenos dias, buenos tardes, buenos noches.... that’s all. I managed to get along very well. DID THE PEOPLE AT EL PUYO SPEAK SPANISH OR ENGLISH? They spoke Spanish and some Indian... it was the outer part of the jungle. It was way up in the mountains...beautiful. The river ran along at about a 15 ft drop and all along the river there was only room for one car, then they had places a few miles apart where you had to go to pass another car. I was so frightened, I couldn’t look down. I thought that if I ever got there I would not leave until I would be going home. At El Puyo there was a clinic and a little house that we lived in...all cement. We had individual rooms and we had a little chapel. I tried to set up a little laboratory where I could. The Indians would come in from the jungle to deliver their babies and they would come in for other things, too. So I would do the blood work for them or any other special tests. DID THEY HAVE EQUIPMENT THERE OR DID YOU BRING ALL THAT OUT? I brought it with me. I went there realizing that they were about 50 years behind us so I took the stuff down that I would need. So it worked out pretty well. I was there a whole year. In December I wrote to Stephanie in Peru that I would be coming over for Christmas because she was alone. She had a room in this school building which was cement and she probably did social service work with the poor. Before I left her on January 4, we had an earthquake. The other Sister had gone home to spend Christmas and so I had a room. I had a little aluminum bed. During the earthquake, the bed was going from wall to wall. We opened the door and stood in the doorway the best place to be during the earthquake. It lasted, it seemed like an hour, but it was only a few minutes. When it ended, we went back to bed. I stayed with her until after Christmas == AN ASIDE== Before I first went to Peru, on December 12, while the Dominican Sister and I were eating a little supper and there was a rap on the door and she went to the door and I heard Stephanie’s voice. She had come to get me. We left about 4 o’clock in the morning to take the bus to go to Guayaquil where we would take a plane to Peru.== �36 I met a younger priest who was a native Ecuadorian who asked me if I would go down to his clinic which was down close to the ocean. At that clinic we had 150 people a day. This was at (Milagro) where I was closer to Guayaquil, only 45 minutes away. There was another Dominican Sister, Sister Rosario who was a nurse who came there to work. Sister Jean Patrice came to visit us there. This priest, I thought at first when I first met him, that he was a very, very good guy. But, as time went on, the only time that he was there at his parish was on weekends when he said Mass. Otherwise, he went to the University of Guayaquil and he stayed there in the Dominican house. He was learning to be a lawyer. He had a terrible temper. One night, when Rosario had been cooking, we were at the table, and he said to her that she should really learn to speak Spanish and she answered him that at least she was speaking it and he was not speaking English. He slapped her and he left the table. From that time on I watched my p’s and q’s with him. We only stayed there a year. At every place that I went, it just killed me to see, every day, these little white coffins go through the streets. Children never had a chance from birth to 3 years old. Custom was very important to the people, and these children would not get any solid food until they were 3 years old. Their little bodies were not strong enough to even live. So, I would teach them in the laboratory that when they had potatoes to eat, mash some up and put a little green from the wheat and give them to the children. Also taught them how to mash a little bit of banana and let the children eat it. After 6 months they ought to have solid food in their stomach. It was just terrible to see all these little ones die from malnourishment. The mothers meant well, but this was what their mothers did and they thought that this was what they were supposed to do. That was a big thing for me. I had an awful time dealing with that. What is needed is to have somebody go down there and teach them. Then I was invited to Guayaquil. �37 This was a huge clinic on the side of the big church, named San Francisco. The Spanish Fathers had this and there was a Sister who was a Franciscan from Peoria, Illinois who was in charge of this clinic. So I went down there and asked her about setting up a little laboratory there and she was very nice to me. Sister Corita was her name. When I had been in Milagro, there was a young lady who had graduated from the University of Guayaquil in medical technology but had no place to practice her skills. She came from Milagro and worked with me for several months and she stayed on when I left. Guayaquil is the biggest city in Ecuador. While I was there I met a priest who was a member of the Fathers of St. James from Boston. These priests were in Ecuador, Peru and Columbia and other countries. This priest, Father John Moriarity was in a little town called Duran. His parish was named Santa Mary Anita. One day as he and I were talking I asked him if he would like a clinic in his parish, and he said yes. So, when I finished at San Francisco in Guayaquil, I went across the river to Duran and set up a clinic there. I suggested that Father talk to the doctors, but he insisted that I do it all. I had to prepare a list of what I had and gave that to a doctor in a notebook so he would know what we had at the clinic. The Doctor would write out a prescription and then the people would come to the clinic to fill the prescription. We used to have between 75 and 100 people a day. I couldn’t open the clinic until 2:00 o’clock in the afternoon because there were about 700 kids in the school and they were in the way. So, I waited until school was out to open the clinic. One day a month, Sister Corita would receive these huge boxes of used glasses from the Lions in Minneapolis and we would sort them out, men’s, women’s, children’s. And for a whole day, once a month we had “glass day”. At 7 o’clock in the morning they were lined up no less than a hundred. For only a few sucres they could get a pair of glasses. They would just try them on “trial and error” until something would help them. �38 Another thing that Father would do once or twice a year, he would line up these Boston doctors who could do facial or plastic surgery. You have no idea how many children had harelips in Ecuador. These doctors would come down and go to one of the hospitals and the would teach the Ecuadorian doctors how to perform these surgeries. These American doctors would stay 4 or 5 days to do this and are still doing this. I thought that was great. Father Moriarity had a big celebration for my Golden Jubilee in Ecuador and he also came here for my celebration. He had the Archbishop come to celebrate the jubilee Mass in Ecuador and there many people there to celebrate. The doctors from the United States were there and took some beautiful pictures. I have this picture that they took in the church for the celebration. Everybody and his brother came to this celebration. In 1980, I started thinking that it was time for me to go home, so I wrote to Barbara Padilla. She came down for 12 weeks and decided that that was what she wanted. So, she replaced me, but this past year they asked her not to come back, so she is working someplace else. In the Fall of 1980, Sister Margaret Ebbing, the Regional, asked me if I would go work with the East Coast Migrant Health Project. So I was signed to go to Immokalee, Florida to work with the migrants. In the summer time I went to Southern Jersey. I did that for 2 years. Down in Florida they were all illegals from Mexico and they didn’t want to be sent back so I would have to go out and get them and bring them to the clinic. It was like finding a needle in a haystack. They wouldn’t give their right name and so it was just terrible just trying to find them. In Jersey was just the opposite. There it was wonderful, the land owners had nice places for them to live. We were told that we were there to change their life... and we tried. We were getting federal money for these clinic. But, in Florida, the people lived in rough sewage. They had mattresses to lay on in cars or on the ground and those things were filthy. �39 I had met a young guy in another town and I asked him if he would come with me and write this up and publish it. I told him that I would take him to three places. At about this time, the first 1500 Haitians came over. These Haitians spoke Creole and were from a very refined culture. I often asked myself why the state didn’t do something about this. Why couldn’t Public Health go around and see this. The young man wrote this up and published this in this paper. Then, Public Health said why didn’t I go over to them with the complaint. But I was thinking they should be out there looking for these things. I got a slap on the wrist from Margaret Ebbing. But, I thought to myself that they wanted us to change the life of these people and we worked at it. I began to wonder why I was using my energy on this, but I stayed on for 2 years, then I resigned. As to Jersey, I loved it. There was a wonderful group of people to work with it was great. I still go up there and visit with them. I had to drive 1200 miles every six months from Florida to Jersey. It took me two days and a half to drive up. I’d just get on Route 95 and then down to 75. I never was afraid. Another reason was that we had a fuzzy dog and I used to sit it up on a box in the car and from the back, people would think that I had a dog, but, of course, if they came around the side, they would know that it was fake. When I was in Jersey I stayed with the Sisters of St. Joseph of Mercy. After I resigned from the work in Florida and Jersey... in 1982... I felt called to refugees. A little inner voice told me that the refugees would be next in my life. I spoke to Helen Flaherty and told her that I felt called to go down and work with the refugees in South Texas. I didn’t know what I would be doing, but I wanted to go down to see what I could do. I told her that if I found a niche I wouldn’t come back, and if I didn’t find a place I would come back. Her answer was: “God speed, Charles” Sister Alma had a week off over at the College, so she drove down with me. When I got down there I saw all of these people coming over the boarder with only the clothes on their back. �40 To feed them became my great concern. I asked myself where we would get the food to feed these people. So I decided to go around to see what I could do. I went to the dairy (Hygea Dairy), I met with the head honcho, I told him who I was and what I wanted to do, and would he help me. He said that he could give me so much ice cream every week, he could give me a lot of cottage cheese and some drinks, like orange juice. I told him thanks and that I would be back on whatever days he wanted me to come to collect this. He told me Tuesday and Thursday. That was the first place I had gone and I got into a loving relationship with the dairy from the President on down. I ended having so much food that sometimes I would have to make two or three trips.... just from the dairy! All of this took place in Harlingen, Texas. From then on, I went down to where the trucks brought in all these vegetables from the farms... a processing place. The first guy I met, I introduced myself. He told me that he was a good Baptist, but he had a guy in there that was supposed to be a good Catholic so he told me to go in and talk to him. So I went in and talked to him about what I wanted to do. He told me that he could give me “seconds”. I asked him what were “seconds”... he said, like a carrot, if its not straight it can’t be sold, sometimes potatoes, sometimes other vegetables. So I asked him what day he would want me to come down.... ABRUPT END TO TAPE #3 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Metz, Sister Judith, SC Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Strassel, Charles Miriam, SC Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Trinidad (Colo.) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 4 Hours 31 Minutes 45 Seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Charles Miriam Strassel, SC Interviewed by Sister Judith Metz, SC March 16, 1993 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic hospitals -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Charles Miriam Strassel by Sister Judith Metz. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Strassel, Charles Miriam, SC; Metz, Sister Judith, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/16/1993 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource "Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf" Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Charles Miriam Strassel, SC Interviewed by Sister Judith Metz, SC March 16, 1993 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1912-1993 Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/89cf9c9c9e784f0ad4fc0a96b38e00c2.jpg 465489867d7eba778d2383545718ca31 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/72ecaed52cb3afe3a1ae15c3163741ba.mp3 0c106bae067317378b1c76c950e2dcb2 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/20a6392e75533da22f392f7f2a7546f7.pdf bd0c6482566d93604619fa81ecc1a97b PDF Text Text Sister DePaul Sandoval in her room at St. Mary's in the Motherhouse interviewed by S. Victoria Marie Forde - July 26, 2007 Sister DePaul Sandoval, 94, in her room at St. Mary's in the Motherhouse interviewed by S. Victoria Marie Forde - July 26, 2007 Sister, what was your life like before entering the Sisters of Charity? Very busy. I was from a family of 12; 3 had died before I was born. We lived on a ranch in Colorado and we all pitched in to help. Our life was very busy; we all had our duties. I was one of five girls. There were four boys, and they needed more help out doors with hay, and with the garden. And my brothers used to train horses, and when one brother finished training them, when he thought it was safe enough for someone else to ride them, he would let me ride them. That was very exciting for me. I loved the outdoors. I worked in the garden with my mother, and I helped her with the cows and calves. In the evening I'd get on my horse and go find the cows wherever they happened to be. They were very stubborn and decided to start eating when I would find them, so I'd be very angry, and by the time I got home it was dark. I loved that work because it was all outdoors. How many acres? Oh, I don't know. It was a very large ranch. There was a mountain this side, and a mountain on the other side. My brother used to have to go up and feed the cattle in the winter and the summer and check on them, and the roads weren't very safe. After my father and sisters died, my nephew was left in charge of the ranch. He sold the mountain and the land down the plain. Then he piped in water from the mountain; that way there was enough water for the summer because it could get very dry. So he piped in water from the springs, and it is much easier now. My nephew and his son run the ranch. Do they still have horses and cows? They still have horses and cows and a lot of work. This past winter was pretty difficult because of the snow, and they were trapped. The county made a road, but they made it one way. If they met someone coming, they would have to move back up. So they're still working out there. They have charge of their property, and they have a meeting, but I'm out of it. I'm not in it at all; I signed over my part to the family when I left. Tell me about when you left. How did you know the Sisters of Charity? I always knew from when I was very young that I wanted to be a Sister. My sister used to get literature from Miraculous Medal Association and holy cards with a picture of St. Vincent DePaul, and I looked at St. Vincent DePaul and I looked at St. Vincent de Paul and I just loved him, with the children. I thought, "Well, that's going to be my choice." I was sent to the Sisters of Mercy high school because they had a boarding school. Where? in Raton? Yes, Raton. I was there four years; I graduated from St. Patrick's Academy. I enjoyed it very much. It was during the Depression, and there wasn't much money around, so we used to pitch in and help the Sisters doing janitorial work and taking care of the younger children. There was one brought in about two months old, and the Sisters took care of her until she graduated from high school. We had all kinds of children small girls and boys. There were some who came from the East with tuberculosis for the clean air and I used to help them go up the stairs, because they were short of breath. I loved to work with those people. There was a lady there from Dayton who had tuberculosis and she was kind of confined to an area in the parlor. She used to play the piano beautifully. While the Sisters were saying their prayers, I let her play my music pieces while I read a book. She later died in New Mexico. It kept us very busy. We'd rather have a janitor. We had a security man who worked between the Novitiate and the Motherhouse. The Sisters entered there; they went East. They were not amalgamated. They entered in Raton; from Raton they didn't have the potential of getting their instructions that they needed, so they put them to work right away. I liked the Mercies, but I was not attracted to their way of life; they were too scattered. They were in different places, �having to teach in different places, and I didn't think there was enough time for religious life—being together and praying together. I still had in my mind that picture of St. Vincent DePaul. I never forgot it. My Sister used to tease me about it "that little old man." I had devotion to St. Vincent. When I finished high school, I went to Trinidad Junior College for one year, and I used to pray my "office" every day and kind of looked at the Sisters of Charity, but I couldn't make up my mind—but I knew 1 wanted to be a Sister if nothing else. What were you studying? I was studying history and languages—a few things, psychology. We walked a lot. One student had a car -there were about 28 students. The boy with the car put all the boys on the fenders wherever he would go; the rest of us walked. It was during the Depression. I felt attracted to the children of the ministers because they behaved better than the others. I used to go to their homes. I felt close to them—from different churches. My Dad was the same way. To him there were no nationalities, no religions. People were people; he loved them all. I followed that pattern because he just loved everybody. He had friends of every nationality, everywhere. Were you bilingual? Yes, I spoke Spanish and English. After I went one year of junior college, my brother died. We couldn't hire workers. I helped as much as I could with the cattle. In the mornings we would gather them and get them out to the pasture. So I stayed home that year and the following year. During the Depression gas was hard to get, and the cars were in terrible condition. We had to push them half the way. One day we stopped, my sister and I—we went to Trinidad with my brother (the one who had died from brain cancer), and as we were going past Holy Trinity Convent (my sister had gone to Holy Trinity for one year in Trinidad), my sister said, "Let's stop by and see Sister Cornelius," and I said, "Oh, I bet she's busy." Well, she opened the door, and she was so gracious and so polite and so sweet to us. She took us up to the parlor and listened to us. My sister, of course, knowing her, was telling her, "My sister is teaching catechism to kids." While I was driving the cattle, I would see these children who were going to the public school—a rural school, and I said to myself, "Those children have not received their First Holy Communion. They haven't had any chance to get any instructions. I think I'll start a class." So I started a class on Sunday. I would gather about eight children from the neighborhood. I had enough sense to ask Father if I could do it, and he said, "Yes, bring them in once a month and I'll check them out, test them." (That was Fr Sylvestiani. a native of Trinidad.) So I was thinking more and more of becoming a Sister, but my brother had died, and I didn't feel like I could leave right then. Being the time of the Depression. It was hard to get what you needed. Getting back to the conversation with Sister Cornelius, when my sister told about my teaching catechism out there at the ranch, she said, "Oh, there should be a Sister," and I said, "I'm going to be one." She said, "Are you going to be a Sister of Mercy?" I said, "No, I'm going to be a Sister of Charity." When she said, "What makes you say that?" "Well, I always wanted to be a Sister of Charity." She said, "Would you like to meet our Mother General? She's downstairs in the dining room." I couldn't believe it - that she would leave the dining room with the Mother General down there. So we went down to the dining room. Mother Mary Regina and Sister Mary Carlos came up the steps to the office and met with my sister and me. She said, "Would you like to go in February?" Well," I said, "I think that's too soon. "I think I'll wait till later." She said, "Well, you can come in September." She accepted me right away— no questions or any tests. She said, "Sister Maria George will send you an application. It will be very simple"— just fill in my name. It was at the very time that Sister Blandina's book came out. My dad had been taught by S. Justina and maybe by S. Blandina - I'm not sure about that, but S. Justina was very good to him. He was very much a part of the Charities. Would you tell us something about your father and S. Blandina and Justina? The book came out in 1932, but this is before then. S. Justina was very good to him - gave him a primary book - for first grade -just starting out, and she turned to the back where it had the alphabet, and some of the bigger boys said, "Well you're so smart, you're already finished with the book." So he got up to get his cap and go home, so Sister just took him and was very kind to him, very gentle. �She said, "Don't pay any attention to them." So she took care of those boys, and they never bothered him again. He really made headways; he was a very brilliant man; he worked very hard. He was living with his aunt and step mother, but I think he spent most of his time with Cecilia Adamson. My aunt, Celia Adamson, was the one who took care of Sister Fidelis. And her daughter was the one who slept in the kitchen on a mattress, and Willie, that she spoke about, was my cousin; she spoke of William Adamson. [See Sister Fidelis Goes to Trinidad, privately published.] They took very good care of S. Fidelis when she arrived. They were there waiting for her. Willie would take her to church. The first time she went to Mass, she stayed to say some prayers after Mass. Willie told her, "The people won't leave until you do." Willie really was her right hand man, and then Willie was the right hand man for S. Blandina. They thought he was one of the vigilantes that followed Billy the Kid. Billy would have only been thirteen years old, hardly the leader of a gang. There was William Cornelius and there was another William, but they were all called "the Kid." I don't know too much about the time when S. Blandina was in Trinidad except for what is in the book. The time S. Fidelis was there, my cousins just kept her under their wings. Whatever they had, they shared with her, and I don't see how that poor Sister. . . She had just made her vows, just 20 years old. They were saints because the worst thing, I would think, was that the Indians could be coming, or they could be attacked by the outlaws. They had a lot of respect for the religious, but it was good to have someone in the house, particularly at night. It took months before Fidelis heard from the Sisters who had gone on to Santa Fe. The other Sister spoke Spanish. It really wasn't necessary because Willie and my aunt - I'm sure they spoke English. They were fur traders. I guess that's the end of that story, but when the Sisters came back, I guess S. Fidelis got relieved but I just want to feel sorry for her. One thing I'll ways wonder, how did Felipe Baca know the Sisters of Charity, and he said he would give this land to the Sisters of Charity who teach in the school, the Sisters of Charity from Cincinnati. How did he know that? That's very puzzling to me. [Oct. 30, 2007 - Sister said that she found out that Felipe Baca's daughter Mercedes had been a Sister of Charity but had died after a few years and was buried in Cincinnati. (Entered 1878-Died 1881). She and her niece had just visited her grave in old St. Joseph's Cemetery.] He did give the land for the school? Yes, Felipe Baca did give land. It just came up a year ago that there was a condition that every Baca would be tuition-free. Unfortunately, the last year the Jesuits were there, there was one Baca, and she was told she had to pay tuition just like everyone else, and that was a big hurt, for they had been there for many years, and the school was there, and it had grown. It was sad that that one girl applied at Holy Trinity; that was the last year it was open. [Closed May 2000]. So that was recently then? Yes, that was recently. What do you know abut the Jesuits coming to Trinidad? The Jesuits were not the first ones; there were Franciscans. Those early priests were criticized for what they did, and it was unfortunate because they were the only ones who understood the people and went -sometimes maybe in a bar - to talk to the people. They had to do things that the people didn't expect priests to be doing - like working and hammering and building and maybe socializing a little. I imagined they needed some socializing; so they went into a bar for a beer. But that was held against them, and I always felt bad about that. It was the same in New Mexico where the Jesuits were staying. They were criticized. So they left and the Jesuits came? I think there was one Franciscan left Fr. (Monaco?) He built the church and my father held the box that they put in the cornerstone. S. Mary Joseph told me it was made by two students (my nephew was one of them). It was made of solid wood; it was a very beautiful thin. The windows and everything are exactly the same as they used to be. The church is very beautiful. The question was asked, "Why don't you modernize it like we did to [Motherhouse] Chapel?" I love the Chapel because I can still see where I knelt when we made our vows and where I sat when we received the �habit right in the sanctuary. We received them there and then we went to our rooms to put them on. Getting back to the entrance story-After you talked to Mother and S. Mary Carlos and then you said you were going to enter in September - and so what happened? I think you finished telling us about Blandina and Justina and Fidelis right? They sent me a list of all that I would need. It was during the Depression and it was hard to get everything. My sister was a seamstress, so she made some things. There were two girls who were going to enter but changed their minds, so Sister Cornelius has some things. There was another girl who entered with me but she was not acquainted with the Sisters; she only stayed a month. S. Marietta Scanlon who had been in Trinidad for a long time, a good friend of S. Cornelius, had been missioned to Springfield, Ohio. She had to use a ticket on August 17, so S. Cornelius wrote to me and asked me if I could go early—it was quite a few days early. So I was all ready, had my trunk packed. You say she wrote to you. Wasn't she right there in Trinidad? Yes, she wrote to me; we were out on the ranch. We got to Trinidad on the 16th. Was your mother still living then? My mother was living, but she died that year after I left. My brother had died the year before, my grandfather the year before - three deaths in the family in a short time. But my family was very cooperative; never once did they say no. Where do you come among your sisters? Were you the youngest? I'm the youngest of the girls. There were two younger boys after me. I'm the only survivor of the family. The last four died when I was in Trinidad before I came here. One was a Franciscan Sister. A Franciscan? Yes, she was too old for the Charities, so she found a priest for spiritual assistance from Colorado Springs and she was a saint, they just loved her. She died at the same time that the other three died. How old was she that she was too old for the Charities? She was thirty or something. She just made the registration [of the Franciscans] by the skin of her teeth. They told her just come to Denver. She was there for a few months—I guess as a postulant; then they sent her to Lafayette, Indiana. They had a Motherhouse there. I don't think they're connected there any more because they went to Mt. St. Francis. In Colorado Springs? Yes. So then she went back there Yes, and that's where she died. She was there many years. They loved her. What was her name? Sister Mary Carlotta— after my Dad. And I made twenty-seven retreats at Mt. St. Francis. Together we made twenty-one. I still love that place. Can we go back to where you came on the train when you were entering? I was sick. You were sick? �They had a Pullman, and I had to stay in bed all day. You and Sister? Marietta and Sophia. We arrived, and the Sisters were walking up and down the Avenue waiting for us at three in the morning, and they took us first to the sewing room and ironed our capes. Then they took us to the bathhouse to get cleaned up. We had to open the windows on the train and all the Kansas dust came in. Where was the bathhouse? It was behind the Chapel, and you had to go through the sunporch, and we had to put our nightgown on under our habit. We got cleaned up and they put us to bed. We didn't sleep good at all. After a while they brought us down to where people were working at the mangle. You couldn't stop the mangle - they had to keep going, so those people were relieved, and then we ate with them. And I was surprised! Of all things there was a big bowl of ice cream - homemade ice cream. I didn't think I was ever going to see ice cream again, or candy or any of those things. I was surprised at all that we had - and I loved them all even when I was away out West. So you stayed here [at Mt. St. Joseph] while you were a postulant and a novice? Yes, a postulant and through my canonical [year]. They made me teach when I was a postulant. I went to St. Williams then I loved it. I taught third grade at St. Williams—I gained some prestige. You entered in what year? 1933 So you stayed at St. Williams and taught for a while? A whole year. I was there when my mother died. I couldn't go home because traveling was very difficult - it took three days, it was too long. I didn't see my family for five years. Then I finally went West to Pueblo. That's after you made vows? I had made my first vows before I went to Pueblo in 1936. All that time you were canonical - and all that? I made my perpetual vows in 1939. So you were traveling back and forth between the West and the East? Yes, for vows we did. St. Francis in Pueblo is where you were teaching? Yes, I was teaching. We are going to talk about the vows now. S. Gabrielle gave us our instructions the first summer, and we received the postulant habit the fifteenth of August and the novice habit on the second of July. That was the last time we had a Reception. Was that the brown habits? No, it was black—flannel two inches thick, and it was so hot—oh, so hot. We had a cape and an apron and a �white gimp. Is that when they gave it to you, and you went someplace else and put it on? That was the only time - I may be wrong - but I know they had it right in the sanctuary. And we received our names. And when we went to ask Mother and petitioned for our vows, she asked us what name we wanted. Very few got what they wanted. Anyway, when she said what name did I want, I said Sister DePaul and that's because she herself, when she [Mother Regina] was in China, Sister DePaul Walsh died [in Cincinnati], and when she came home, she said, (Mother Regina was very close to me), "I think that Sister DePaul died to accommodate you." And I thought about that, and I always wanted DePaul in some way. But she thought, "Well, that's the only thing" - so I took the best I could get, and I didn't change it. My friend [St. Vincent DePaul] - sitting there on the windowsill—I used to get roses and fix 'em up and put them there. It's a beautiful statue with the children. Yes, the children, that's what appealed to me. That's why I liked being at St. Patrick's Academy where there were orphans and different ones that came in. I got so attached to them. And I loved children. I loved teaching little children, and I did get up to junior high, and then after I taught for several years I said I wanted to go back to first grade. I wanted to do some things that I hadn't done in a while. Someone said "I thought she would have lost her mind." But I would have stayed in first grade all my life if they would have let me do it. So they came there to learn—I don't know how they do it now, but they would sit there with their hands folded, looking at you, especially at St. Francis. There was one little boy who wouldn't leave the class after registration, and he just sat there. So his brother asked if this was going to be his room, and after the third time, I said, "Yes. Doesn't he want it to be?" He couldn't believe it was true. Rita Mary helped me with all the altar decorations, so I fixed it up and 1 always tried to make it as pretty as I could. This was in Pueblo? No, St. Francis [Xavier} in Albuquerque. I taught there for eleven and a half years. You lived at the [St. Vincent ] Academy? Yes, but then St. Francis got a convent. What years were you there? Do you remember? I don't remember that. That's all right. I was just wondering if I was in high school while you were there. Yes you were there and your two sisters. Did you open any missions? Did you go to any missions when they were just starting? Yes, St. Francis. The school was already there. We started the community You remember any Community Customs - before Vatican II? I had gone to boarding school, and we washed our dishes at the table. The only difference was washed our own in the pantry. I had a lot of practice at St. Patrick's because they were very poor, and we did the torial work with the dishes and with the little ones and so many things. I was so happy. I would tell Sophia, "It's so ;ty her," and she'd say, "I hate to tell you what I think of it." I have the second letter that I sent home. have it? Yes, it's very faded. I have it some place; I was showing it to someone. If I come across it, I will show you. I .just raving about the place. I was so happy, and I spoke about Sister Blandina, and I said she's a very sweet Sister. �is when you met Sister Blandina in the infirmary? Tell us about that. When I told the Sisters that my dad had been taught by S. Justina and S. Blandina, they said, "Well, S. Blandina in the infirmary." [Unclear] Then I got the job of bringing trays to the Sisters in this area - the infirmary. They about eleven Sisters who were bedridden. (The others had to stay in the mission until they got worse.) And one of them was Sister Blandina, and I was assigned to Sister Blandina. I had brought her tray to her, and she was talking in Spannish to me. She remembered Spanish people. And I took her tray one time and put it on what I thought was a nice beautiful table with beautiful flowers, and a chair around it, and she said, "I want to tell you something. It isn't …ty to put the tray on the commode." I didn't know what a commode was. I didn't put them on the commode again, get some good laughs. And we talked about some people in Trinidad. And before I left, I got her interested in the Adamsons. ---------------- tape 1 ends here. Continued on tape 2----------------------Continuation of Sister De Paul - Tape 2 Today is Nov. 13, 2007, and I, Sister Victoria Marie Forde, am in Sister De Paul Sandoval's room [in St. Mary's, Mt. St. Joseph]. She is kind enough to retape part of her oral history interview because the tape, we did it on [a minicassette] wasn't of good sound quality. Sister De Paul, you told us that you were one of the first ones who started the community at St. Francis in Albuquerque. Do you want to tell us some details about that? Father was building a church, a new church, and so the old church was left for classrooms, so we could use it for a convent. So we turned, converted some of the rooms upstairs into the convent. The eighth grade classroom was the community room, and they left the blackboards because they probably had needed them to study at night. And it was not a very nice looking place because the windows were big. We didn't have drapes or curtains that would fit them, and we had blackboards to get rid of because we didn't want them there. S, Catherine Roberta [McCullough] and myself took them down when S. Elizabeth Regina went for a meeting. We asked her if we could do it, and she said, "Do anything you want; I'll be out of town." So we pulled the. . . We got some tools and S. Catherine Roberta wanted to start it, and I said, "No, you don't know how to use tools. You're from Cincinnati." So the doorbell rang, and I went to answer it, and when I came back, she had already taken down some of the blackboards. We spent a very cold winter there. The wind would blow and the sand came in and the windows, the wood was so thin. And we didn't have enough, we didn't have blankets. Then a few ladies found out we didn't have blankets, so they bought us one blanket each. And we didn't have, we couldn't heat upstairs. So most of the time we'd go to bed early so we wouldn't catch colds, and the wind would blow into, through the drafty windows. So we managed very well for a while. We didn't have much money to start to get much furniture, so we found old chairs and removed, I knew how to remove the varnish from the chairs with varnish remover and how to paint them and we managed to furnish the rooms, and some desks, they were not varnished, so we varnished them too. And Sister Adele Baca lived with us, she was one of our Sisters, and her family had a store, a family store, so she ordered the groceries from there, and I'm sure they doubled the order whatever she ordered plus a bag of black jelly beans for Sister Adele. So we managed. We got apples from. . . . Sister Isabella gave us some of the commodities and school supplies that they used to get, and she gave us some apples and some cheese. They used to get a lot of apples and cheese so we had cheese sandwiches and apples cut up with grapefruit juice and nutmeg for dessert. And the place was very cold and drafty, but the people were very wonderful. They came forth with whatever they could do o help us. There was a very wonderful carpenter who made a beautiful china chest to put our dishes and they tried to plaster the parts of the paper that were falling down, so I used the paint right out from the bucket. And then the next morning I came in and it was cracked, worse than it was before, so we removed them and started again. All this time S. Catherine Roberta and S. Raymond [Glutz] would help along, and we cleaned up the place as much as we could. And we managed to live there very well for a couple of years. Little by little we started getting things. And then we got furniture for the chapel. S. Rita Patrick had a friend in Detroit who donated a hundred dollars and we had some money to build the prie-dieus and we used the chairs that we had the chairs that we had varnished, not very well. And the altar was we took the paint off of it, and that beautiful wood, that beautiful wood, Father Mazza, [S. J.], was at St. Mary's, and he came and he wanted to fix the chapel. He removed the paint [on the altar] and put horsehide with tacks, beautiful tacks, and we had money to buy new curtains for behind the altar, and it was beautiful because it had windows above. It was the operating room from the Santa Fe Hospital, and now St. Francis convent. First it was a school, but it was sold to the parish of St. Francis. First it was a hospital? Yes, it was a hospital. First it was a hospital, the Santa Fe Railroad people, the Santa Fe Hospital. So first it was the Santa Fe Railroad Hospital in Albuquerque, and then they sold it to the parish. Yes, to the parish, and the parish converted it into a school, and we had a school, and for a long time we went there. We went back and forth �from St. Vincent Academy, and then Father decided to build a new church, they'd have room, and we would have a convent [top floor of the school]. Sister De Paul, you told us that you had a long teaching career that you loved, but when you were in Trinidad, something happened, that the Sisters didn't go back to teaching one year? Sisters were not given. . . . In the spring Sister used to give us a paper with intent if we wanted to come back or not. So the Sisters, three of us did not get this paper of intent, and the lay teachers had theirs, and we wondered why. So when I asked Sister, Sister James Ellen, she wouldn't answer. She just walked away. So I never knew why we were terminated. Who were the three? Sister Joseph Elizabeth Pino, Roberta Marie, and myself. Sister Roberta had been terminated the year before. Well then, what did you do, once you were terminated? Once I was terminated, I didn't know what to do. I just prayed. And within a couple of days, the lady who ran the adult learning center for the junior college called me and asked if I would help them with the storefront which was just across the street. And with the school for the people who were poor, the mentally handicapped, for some of them, and then for those who were of different nationalities. We got some students from the college who during that time were Iranians and people from Iraq and from around Trinidad. So we had some students from the college, and I taught there for eight years, junior college. I was paid and I was glad to have that money to help the homeless. They came at night and rang the doorbell, and it was a very severe winter, and they looked like snowmen when they came to the door, and it didn't take long before the Northern Railroad knew about it, so they referred some of the people, the transients. So they asked if we could put them in the hotel, the old hotels that were not being used much anymore. And the Colombian Hotel had an elevator so anyone who was crippled, was handicapped, we put them there. They charged only about. . . . The Colombian charged seven dollars; the others charged only six or five dollars a night. You were using the money that you got from teaching? Yes, I was using the money that I got. What were you teaching? I was teaching the adults from Iraq and Libya English with their dictionary and our dictionary to converse. I was also teaching the children from the rehab center, the mentally handicapped and also the Spanish adults how to read in English. And so I had that job for eight years and I was very glad to have that job to help the transients mostly; it was a very severe winter. They would come to the door and they would look like snowmen. So what did you do after the eight years? After [a few] years they moved the storefront to the junior college for about three years. It was the same school, but a different location, and they provided transportation. One of the teachers gave me a ride early and coming back, we had rotation, the rehab bus would give me a ride home. In addition to that I found time to, in two afternoons, to visit the jail. I asked the sheriff if he would allow me to go in because I was going to take books from the college. Many of the students . . . were in jail. And I took them their homework, so I asked him if it would be all right if I'd go there at least once a week regularly. So he said he was very happy because they hadn't had anyone from the Catholic church since Father Weber and Father Vifquain [SJ.]. How come the students were in jail? They broke in or something. What did you do after that? In between I did things. I also took Holy Communion to the homebound. I found out, I asked Father if I could take Communion to this couple, and he said he had a list for me. Since I couldn't drive; I walked all the time. In all kinds of weather. I didn't mind; I was glad to do it. I was well and healthy and happy. Just what I always wanted to do but never was able to do because I loved teaching. I never thought of getting out of teaching. So I walked up and down the hills, taking Holy Communion to the homebound. What about visiting other people of other faiths? You had told me before that you used to visit. I went around, Father gave me a shoebox full of a list of the parishioners, and Father said, "Do you want to go around and see people if they are still going to church?" So I went up and down the streets in the afternoon, and I found the first street, I thought I'd never get out of Portland because there were so many children who had never made their First �Holy Communion, so many children who weren't baptized, and adults who wished to get their marriage straightened out, so it took a long time get out of Portland. I don't know why but that was the street that took the most time, but I enjoyed it. It was a very wonderful winter, and I love to walk and I walked almost to the foot of Fisher's Peak sometime, and I found some people who hadn't been receiving Holy Communion or were not able to go to church, so I was able to go to them to take them Holy Communion there in their home. And later on, little by little Father had more peopleand I had four volunteers [for driving]. That made it wonderful. Father said, "Don't take Communion every week, every other week," so I was glad to have those volunteers for the places that were far away or if the weather was bad, and those people were very wonderful. Time went very fast because I was so busy that before I knew it, I was told to come to the Mount when Sister Isabella broke her hip. And there was no one else to be there in the convent except Sisters of other communities, and they would stay.. . . And S. Isabella won the Mother Seton Award [Sister De Paul added later that S. Isabella invited many Sisters for an afternoon reception, and some from Albuquerque and S. Zita Burke stayed overnight. S. Barbara Counts arrived in the morning and pitched in and bought balloons and scrubbed placemats and helped tremendously to get the place ready.] And we had always. . . . From the time the Sisters had arrived in Trinidad, I'm sure whatever they had in the line of food, we shared the food with anyone who knocked at the door. So after that we used to have what you call lunch packs, brown bags, and we'd give them a sandwich or two and fruit and a can of pop and some cookies. We always had cookies. Our cook was always making cookies. In a little brown bag, to the transients who knocked, to whoever knocked at our side door always got a bag, no matter how busy we were or how little we had, but whatever we had, all those years that was the tradition of the Charities. S. Isabella asked the Franciscans to keep the tradition of the Sisters of Charity and continue giving brown bags to the transients. This is after you leave, Sister Isabella asked them to please keep up the tradition. --if they were going to keep the tradition, and they changed all the locks, and they didn't. And they changed the name of the convent. They changed the name of the convent to Our Lady of the Angels. This happened in one year, and the people were so confused. They had no idea when they called, and they answered, "Our Lady of the Angels." Sister, how did you experience the Vatican Council? What did you think about the Community's response or your response? I think we adjusted to it beautifully. I don't think there was any question about anything that you couldn't do and there was a freedom that those who wanted to change the habit or keep the habit, and they never questioned anything. There was a freedom in the Community where everyone accepted it when they understood it, and everyone continued in our own way, maybe in a different style in different ways, but it was the same thing, evangelizing and we're still visiting the jails, I imagine, and I know the lay people in Trinidad are taking care of the jail, they're taking care of the soup kitchen, and the jail, and they're taking care of all those things that we were doing. Things done by very good people. And my nephew John, very active in the parish, and he tells me what they're doing, and it makes me feel good that this is still being continued. What about the important meetings of the Community? How did you experience them? the special Chapters, . . . or the Gathering, the Congress? You know, we had the Gathering last summer? Well, I remember there were some Gatherings I didn't come. I realized the expense, and my Sisters were not well enough, and I never knew what would happen, so I stayed home, my two sisters and my brother, so I stayed home to take care of them. So I didn't get too much; I got papers to read, and I found it difficult to understand some of the terms, and after, I looked them up in the dictionary. But when we had that Gathering, not last summer, I don't remember what summer it was, we had the people out on the lawn, that really impressed me, when they blew those [ram's] horns, and we went down to "Gather Your People." It made me feel that whether you want to or not, it gathered you together like a magnet, and I think that there was more unity after that than we ever had before. The first Gathering in the Community we had questions, but in that [one] was not questions about what we were going to change, what we were going to do, but we were all one. It was just like a magnet, and we want to continue serving God in our own way; of course if extraordinary, we had to get permission. But like going to the jail, I didn't feel like I had to get permission. The jailer said when I asked, "Oh, please," he said. "We haven't had a Catholic priest, person come into the jail since Father Vifquain and Father Weber died. We get all these ministers who confuse things and who cause trouble." What sustained you in Community over the years? What sustains you now? Well, the grace of God. I know that I've always felt I was where I should be. I got rattled sometimes if I was on a mission where the poor weren't there, like when I went to the Shrine [of the Little Flower, Detroit], but I always had a taste for the poor, and I found out it was the same and given the fact that I could give them firsthand information about �what it was like to have been out West, the sacrifices people made in order to get their religion. It was a blessing in disguise. Right now what sustains you? Well, the fact that we are united and so, working with each other and the charitableness of everyone. There are different ways. We aren't all of the same; thank God for that. We aren't made of the same mold; we're all different. That makes for variety. And our prayer lives. We have our own little. .. . We don't pray together as much; some are not well enough to be with us in prayer, but when we want a Mass that is lively, we can go to the Motherhouse. But the Mass here in the [Mother Margaret] chapel is just right. Father has it at the same time every day, so we won't get confused. He is just ideal for us. His homily is little bit maybe, but sometimes just a sentence, but never more than three minutes long. He's considering those people who have to run out [She laughs], or who are already asleep, because they do sleep sometimes, He is so gentle, he is ideal for people like us, he is an answer by God, because when they're sleeping, he taps gently them to wake them up [for Communion], . . . Not in church, I'm not asleep, but I am sleeping more than I used to. It's the medication that you take. You're talking about Father Joe Bruening. Yes, he's the perfect one for us. And then you have Father Lou Lipps [S.J.] too. Yes, he's very good too. We are very fortunate. . . . We don't have to worry about losing anything that we've acquired in the past. We have it here. It's a different shape and form maybe, like the bell ringing and have to respond to it. It's you at your own pace, but it's just ideal. It's hard to describe the pattern that they have here that everyone fits into, and that's a real gift, to be able to do that, to be able to keep the community going at their own pace, No one's going to say walk faster or. . . . You go at your own pace. If you want to die without anyone watching you--like S. Isabella, I don't know what happened to her--you can; but if you want them to help--and it's wonderful to have them, I want them, you can have them. But if you want them more or whatever you want, no one is going to question that. Another thing that people remark, that I hear so often from others, is how friendly the Sisters are. And they go in the dining room, and they hear them laughing and talking at the table, laughing. You can tell they're not. . . . It's just the reward, I guess, for what we've done or haven't done. God in His goodness has given us this place. That's a beautiful answer. Now the last question: how do you think God is calling you to be with God today? Like is it with suffering? What is God asking of you today? He's asking me to pray hard, as hard as I can, for all those who are out of the Church, that I know who are out of the Church, and not responding to God's grace. Later Sister De Paul asked that this next section about a relative be omitted.] And you, your suffering? God is asking? I suffer because I don't know everything [about relatives]. They don't tell me everything. But I mean even physically. Oh, no. You don't have much? No, I don't have pain, I can say that. I'm forgetful, I'm aware of that, I'm very forgetful, and my vision is not as good as it used to be. I still say my Office because I have a large print book, and I still say my rosary. So God isn't asking a lot of suffering from you? Mostly prayer. Right now I am suffering because I have so much junk. [She laughs.] I know what I have; I know I should move, I know it, but. . . . You don't look like you have much. It doesn't look like much to me. But look at those drawers. Just one little dresser. Well, if I can get that done, and get moved. They have told me, a person in charge of everything, not Pat Saul, a layperson. Whoever. Well, anyway, they told me they have a room for me upstairs. Anyway, there's a nice parlor outside of it for my family. You can enjoy that. While my family are here in the car, we go here and they go there. When they come here [to my room], they feel at home. So I went up there , and I looked in the room, and I opened the door and I didn't see a toilet anywhere, so I pulled a door open, and I saw the attic. Oooo. They were going to put walls �around the toilet and the sink, but it was too close to the attic. Then I looked at the width of it, and it reminded me of a coffin, and it was on the way away from everybody. I'd be miserable. I do want to be around people. I may not be able to come to the table, but I like to be around people. . . . So, Sister, what is God asking of you today? Let's go to that question. He's asking me to pray, and to pray as much as I'm able to pray, in my own words, from a book, whatever, and also to offer suffering-and I don't have much physical suffering, so I haven't suffered much, but anxiety and worrying about my family sometimes and worrying about people who are going to be suffering from the lack of heat in their homes or money that their gas is going up to four dollars a gallon. Then they won't be able to get to places that they want to get to, especially when they're sick and have to get to the doctor or something. So that's part of your suffering. I'm praying that things get better, and I do watch the news and read the papers, just enough to know what's going on. I see, but not what it should be. Do you want to wrap it up? [Sister is getting tired.] Yes. Thank you very much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sandoval, Sister De Paul, SC Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Trinidad (Colo.); Albuquerque (N.M.) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35 Minutes 24 Seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister De Paul Sandoval, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC July 26, 2007 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister De Paul Sandoval by Sister Victoria Marie Forde. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sandoval, Sister De Paul, SC; Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/26/2007 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource "Audio/mp3 Application/pdf" Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister De Paul Sandoval, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC July 26, 2007 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1913-2007 Education Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/8c471fdfa991bd6f5a126d7ebdc945ab.jpg 597f41407b2f2bd2939da11fa4d8d113 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/826f2c158707513c842b130ce4217761.mp3 76a9da6cdddddf2d3c41798aa241345f https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/12c0254e7c9a754d59dc3436d27e6439.pdf 62d65f841f68bc4ed86df97ed4f7320a PDF Text Text Interviewer: Sister Anita Constance, SC Interviewee: Sister Eleanor Maria Pettit, SC Date: 1993 Editor: Sister Noreen Neary, SC Date edited: November 18, 2020 Sr. Eleanor Maria: The thing with Hasbrouck Heights was that it was an accident that Corpus Christi School opened. Now, I don't know if that's funny or not, but in 1928 there were two Father Clarks and a Father Martin. The Father Clarks were brothers. One was in Ridgefield, one was in Hasbrouck Heights. The Ridgefield one and Father Martin, who was in East Orange, both were opening schools and Mother Grata had promised them sisters. But the man [Father Andrew Clark] in Hasbrouck Heights was a little annoyed when he knew they were getting them and he wasn't. He had no school at all. But he went up to Convent and Mother - she told the story - she was busy and she couldn't see him. So she sent word down thinking it was Father John Clark, his brother, that not to worry, he would have his sisters. And she lived up to it. And now, as I look back, I think it was pretty hard. But on the other hand, the Lord was with us, I guess. [Sister Anna Raphael Bradley], who had been in Hoboken for 35 years, brand new superior, and [Sister Mary Avelline Carrigan] and I were novices and they sent the three of us to Hasbrouck Heights. And when we got there, there was no school. There was a Lyceum building and there was an auditorium in there and two cloakrooms, one on either side of the entrance. So Anna Raphael taught the sixth grade in the auditorium. I taught first and second in one of the cloakrooms and Avelline had third and fourth in the other cloakroom. Sr. Anita: It's typical of Sisters of Charity doing with what you have, making do with what you had. Sr. Eleanor Maria: That's right. But it was hard. And we really didn't have a convent. We were renovating a little house, which was in the spot where the school there is. Sr. Anita: Where did you live then? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Well, we stayed ... There were bedrooms in this little house on the upper side, but they were partly furnished. We stayed in the convent, we had in the rectory. And until, maybe it was a week or so before. And my famSr. Anita: Did you eat with the priest or did you have to eat separately? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Housekeepers had us separately. And my mother ... We lived in Newark and my mother used to come over to us. My sister came over, did the wash for us. And it was really very, very hard. We had to get up and have the wash out before we went to school. It was awfully hard, but I don't think we appre- ... Avelline, poor little Avelline, Lord have mercy on her, at Christmas time she �couldn't take it anymore. So she was changed to Roxbury, Massachusetts. Anna Raphael left in June, she was changed to Roxbury, Massachusetts, became Avelline's superior there. And I don't know why I was there for three years, but I was there for three years. Sr. Anita: Well, I guess they thought you were good at what you were doing. Sr. Eleanor Maria: I don't know. I don't know. Well, I had had the first grade in the boys’ house [Saint Joseph School for Boys in Convent Station, NJ], which became the Juniorate after. Sr. Anita: Oh, yeah. Sr. Eleanor Maria: That was the last year they had that open, [Sister Anne Gertrude Coleman] and Mary [inaudible] and I were Sr. Anita: Went to Hasbrouck Heights then… Sr. Eleanor Maria: Novice. We were only novices. Sr. Anita: Were you a novice the three years you were there? Sr. Eleanor Maria: No. I entered in [1927], we got the habit in July ‘27. And then in September, we went down to the boys’ house. And the following September that we went to, 1928, we went to Hasbrouck Heights. Sr. Anita: As a novice. Sr. Eleanor Maria: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sr. Anita: And then you taught as a novice, made your vows and went back. Sr. Eleanor Maria: Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then I was already there for three years, and then I went to [Mount Carmel School in Ridgewood, NJ]. But it was hard. But as you look back now… �Sr. Anita: What was hard about it? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Hmm? Sr. Anita: What was hard about it? Sr. Eleanor Maria: My Lord, we had to teach school, work, do our housekeeping, everything. We had nothing. And we had finally had it ready for sister came after, it was only two months. Because she left when Anna Raphael did, that came and cooked for us after. My mother couldn't come over and live with us, but she came over. Sr. Anita: Because you were working from scratch, right? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Yeah. Oh yeah, we had nothing. But we had no chapel, but he was putting a little chapel in the house, which was a God-send. And we had problems there. Sr. Anita: That's all right, only I hear it. Sr. Eleanor Maria: Oh. I think he was a little unfortunate. He used to have his problems. And sometimes he'd be very kind to us and another time he would be ... he'd come in and shut the heat off on us. And we had to be in school at 8:30. Some mornings we didn't have Mass until eight o'clock and we'd have to get over to school. And then I used to leave at 11:30 to ... We fixed the dinner the night before, some of the things. And then I came over at 11:30 and cooked what had to be cooked and really had a dinner at night. But it was, now as I look back, I'm glad it happened, because it certainly gave you something that ... I think it did, it made you a little stronger, I guess. Sr. Anita: Like a fortitude of forbearance. Sr. Eleanor Maria: Yeah. Right. But you didn't think of it that way at that time, we were too young. Well, I was 22 when I entered. I wasn't a baby and I had worked, for which I'm grateful. But then after the three years, things went on normally. But it wasn't easy. And I think the people in Bergen County at that time weren't too happy to have a Catholic school. They weren't ready for it then. �Sr. Anita: Oh, really? Was it one of the first ones in the area? Sr. Eleanor Maria: I think so. I think it was. There was no Teterboro, no nothing, anything there. It was all farmland, all farmland. Even Ridgewood, when I went to Ridgewood. We taught Sunday school in Glen Rock and Paramus and in Midland Park up that way. There were no schools there at all, and that was 1930, 27, 20, 30. In early 30s. Sr. Anita: If you were to say, like your experience in Hasbrouck Heights, how would you look at it as really a typical experience of the Sisters of Charity life? How do you think that that would be so typical of what Sisters of Charity would get into or would be their kind of a ministry or experience? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Well, I think it was a good thing, a good ministry. And I think once they realized what it was, it was ... I'm grateful I had it, to be honest with you. And that was just the first couple of- And then Avelline and I were friends from the novitiate. And when she left, I was uptight. Then after that [Sister Margaret Francis McAllister] came, and after that [Sister Therese Concilio Carlin] came. And in those three years we had the two superiors, [Sister Stella Maris McGaughey] was our superior after Anna. And she was a poor little sister, she was a beautiful [inaudible] years after. Sr. Anita: So this was like the pioneer days of the community. Sr. Eleanor Maria: I guess. Well, I think, look, she was a lot older than that. But I'm sure a lot of the sisters had a harder time then. Yeah. But I always felt it was kind of accidental that it opened, but God permitted it and He wanted it because that's one of the nicest places we have today. Sr. Anita: But I guess that priest would have prayed, “Providence can provide, Providence did provide, Providence will provide.” Sr. Eleanor Maria: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. Sr. Anita: He certainly must've felt he pulled a good one when he walked out of it. Who was the Mother then? Sr. Eleanor Maria: [Mother Mary Grata Mullaney], the greatest Mother we ever had. �Sr. Anita: Was she wonderful? Sr. Eleanor Maria: God, she was the greatest one. Sr. Anita: Why was she good? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Kind and thoughtful. My father died, I went home while I was in Hasbrouck Heights. I made my vows in July and my father died June 6th. And I went home for my first visit to his funeral and we weren't allowed to do really anything in those days. But my mother said to ... I wasn't allowed to go to the cemetery. He's buried up in Connecticut. And she asked me if she thought I could get permission after November 1st, I had buried my dad, if I could go up to the visit the grave in Norfolk, Connecticut. And Stella Maris said, "Hey, write to Mother and ask her." I wrote to her and she wrote me a letter within three days saying ... My mother was planning a day trip. And she said, "You may go with your good mother." And she said, "You do not have to come back the same day." Sr. Anita: That was extraordinary in those days. Sr. Eleanor Maria: There's a Sisters’ ... The Sisters of Mercy have a con- Imagine how she investigated. The Sisters of Mercy have a convent in Torrington, Connecticut, which is right near there. And she said, "You may stay there overnight and come back the next day." My mother almost died. And my mother was the most beautiful letter writer. She wrote all her life, she never stopped writing. And she wrote to mother in gratitude. She was so ... That was unusual. Sr. Anita: And this was to visit your father's ... Sr. Eleanor Maria: Papa's grave. My whole family's buried up there. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Pettit, Sister Eleanor Maria, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Constance, Sister Anita, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:08:15 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Eleanor Maria Pettit, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Pettit, Sister Eleanor Maria, S.C.; Corpus Christi School Hasbrouck Heights, NJ; Mother M. Grata Mullaney Description An account of the resource Description of the opening of a new school in 1928 and the kindness of Mother Mary Grata Mullaney Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pettit, Sister Eleanor Maria, S.C.; Constance, Sister Anita, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1993 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Eleanor Maria Pettit, S.C. describes the opening of a new school in 1928 and the kindness of Mother Mary Grata Mullaney Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant circa 1993 Education Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/bf13f8ec9cb25e0e37ccea23be487017.jpg 6ff1209a96861c48f5c0eaf77e621268 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/3b3b3b1532187134c1e84cd52fe3e139.mp3 db6600ed99dfe1f156b024a3e0fa42b5 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/380add82bde7b08b490c629d869ce13e.pdf 8bb63abdc719bf5c70e873981b7295c7 PDF Text Text SISTER LINDA CHAVEZ – ORAL HISTORY CD # 83 [Bracketed words are additions by S. Linda upon review.] Today is June 27, 2011 and I, S. Victoria Marie Forde, am in S. Linda Chavez's room [Motherhouse] ready to begin her oral history. Victoria: Linda, your folder in the Archives is filled with articles and papers about your wonderful life and your many accomplishments and honors. Now, when you have just reached 85, besides highlights of your life, perhaps you will also share your experiences within the Community and Church during your almost 64 years in the Community. But right now let's begin at the beginning. Linda: I am a daughter of Leo and Leanor Chavez. My mother was born Leanor Perea and was a school teacher and married Leo Chavez who had been married and his wife had died. They were both in their late 20's. A year later she gave birth to twins. My twin brother, Leo, was born first, and then I came along. Victoria: Was this all in San Isidro? Linda: Mother went up from Albuquerque where she was living to visit her mother before the baby came, and to her surprise the babies came on May 31st when she was visiting in San Isidro [about fifty miles from Albuquerque]. My uncle had to go to Bernalillo to get a doctor because there is not one in San Isidro and help with the delivery. [The babies were born at Grandma's house.] She had two well babies. We didn't grow up as though we were the same age because Leo was much slower in developing than I was. So, even though he did graduate from high school, it was four or five years after I did. But he was a wonderful human being, loved people, and people loved him. [He died at age 76.] As my sister Priscilla, who was born a year later says, "I am sorry I didn't die before Leo because I don't know who will come to my funeral." At his funeral the Church was full. Victoria: Then you went to the University of New Mexico? Linda: I went to public school first. I was only four years old when I forced my mother to take me to the kindergarten because my two aunts who are just two years and three-anda-half years older than me were at Eugene Field School, and if they could go I could go. So she went with me to the kindergarten to see if the teacher would take me, and she said to my mother, "She speaks English, so I will keep her." So I was only 5 years old in the first grade so that makes me graduating a little earlier than most. Victoria: And you are bilingual? Linda: That is right. [English was spoken at home. Our maternal grandmother lived with us for four winters. She did not speak English, so we learned our Spanish from her.] When I was in sixth grade is when I moved to the [St. Vincent] Academy, and I knew nothing about Sisters. �Victoria: This is St. Vincent's Academy in Albuquerque, right? Linda: Yes, I graduated from the Academy, and then went on to UNM and I needed one semester to graduate, and that is when I told my mother and father that I wanted to go to the convent. She said, "We won't talk about it until you are 21." So I did work for my father for a year and entered in 1947, and I had those six credits to get before I got my degree. Victoria: Then once you went on a mission you had many different classes that you still kept up with? Linda: Well, I can honestly say that it is only two classes that are real close to me. The first two years I was a teacher at Corpus Christi Grade School in Dayton, and I had those youngsters for two years, so they are the class that know me best, and they had me all day long. And the next year I went to [Holy Trinity] Middletown for one ninth grade. It was the last ninth grade of the Middletown [Holy Trinity} High School. There were only twenty-four in that class, and they were very self motivated students. So they became very close to me and since then they seem to want to visit with me whenever I come East, and we get to see each other almost every year. Victoria: Maybe you could just mention your degrees. You did get quite a few degrees. Linda: Well, I got a BA degree in Education and a Master's degree in Family Life Education which is called Home Ec and a master's in Theology. Victoria: But you did go to St. Louis [University] for Spanish though? Linda: No, I went to St. Louis for Family Life Education. I went to Loyola of Chicago for my Theology. Victoria: You just took Spanish classes at St. Louis? Linda: No, I took some college grad classes in Spanish,but they are mostly Spanish Literature. I had taken Spanish in high school, and of course the family spoke both languages. While my education at St. Louis University was very good and also helpful for Theology, after starting my graduate studies in Theology, it was during the time just before and after Vatican II. I was so conscious of the fact that we tried too hard not only to prepare the students for responding to the Vatican II, but also their parents. Every year we had classes for parents in order to help them understand Vatican II. Victoria: Where are you teaching then? Linda: In Middletown and Springfield and of course [two] years in Michigan. And from there I was missioned to Albuquerque. We continued there to try to not only teach the students but also the parents [about Vatican II]. Victoria: And your theology background is from Loyola then? Linda: Yes, all Jesuits. St. Louis, Loyola, and Albuquerque was always Jesuits. So I feel like I am a Jesuit girl. I probably would have been a Jesuit, but I can't join them! Victoria: So then once Vatican II did happen, or did occur, then some changes were happening in the Community too. �Linda: Yes, and I was very pleased that I really felt called to be an ambassador for the Vatican II because many people were resistant to it. I think that was even true in the Community – that we were going too fast or moving too fast and I was asked to be on the habit committee in 1965. That was when we were not thinking of not wearing a habit but changing from the black habit and veil to a simpler dress, and for some reason they called it the Seton blue, which was not navy blue or light blue. It was just a little kind of a turquoise blue. It was a Seton blue as we called it. Even that was interesting to see the change was well received by some and not so well received by others. But soon, speaking of habit, there was a motion toward more changes in the habit. I was still on the habit committee, and we had done a study of material and everything to see whether this is important or not. For the Chapter, I think it was the Chapter of '69, I was asked to give the report on the habit committee and I remember coming to the old Novitiate room and finding S. Ellenora [Hilbers] there. She said to me, "Dearie, I hope you are going to keep us in the Seton blue." And I said, "Well, I am not sure of that," and the one reason was the habit committee had noticed that there were going to have to be much bigger changes than that, and that people in other communities were moving toward a modern dress. So she said to me, "Keep us in our Seton blue." So I went in and gave my report, and in those days you didn't stay to find out what happened so I left, and I was studying at that time in some place in San Antonio and having classes there. Victoria: So you weren't even in Cincinnati? Linda: No, I wasn't in Cincinnati, and I had flown, and summer school was over, and I had always. . . . During the Chapter we received the reply every day, and that particular day it never came, and until I got home I found out that they had voted for an option of dress. And that was like "What does that mean?" And it meant just what we said: that people could begin to move toward what they thought was comfortable. And for me it was definitely to be in a modern dress and look like the rest of women. Victoria: Why was that important? Linda: It was important to me because sometimes when I had been in Cincinnati, probably living in Middletown, I made the Cursillo, and the Cursillo is always four women or four men. And I was with a group of women, and I was so conscious of being deferred to because I was in my full black habit or blue habit or whatever habit I had on. It was a barrier to being feeling the same. And those women were beautifully spiritual and caring and wanting to please God as I was. And here I was being looked up at as if I come from another age or space. Victoria: Like on a pedestal? Linda: Right. And so that made me decide I wanted an option of dress because I didn't want that separation from the rest of the Catholic women. So I was very. . . . But one little thing I did, I was already in Albuquerque at St. Pius [High School], and my mother had an account at Kistler Collister's Victoria: Which is a department store? �Linda: Yes. So many of the sisters [I lived with] didn't want to go shopping and try on things. So I asked my mom if I could use her credit card and just take some clothes back to the convent so that the sisters who didn't want to shop for themselves could look at something and see how it would look on them or what size they needed. You know, at that time people didn't even know what their size was. So that became a very lucrative investment, and so we gradually, we were at least thirteen of us at the convent at the time, and we gradually started wearing a little more modern dress. And being a seamstress I helped people sew, and I sewed for myself, and we gradually started knowing what we wanted and what we needed. Victoria: The worst thing was trying on bathing suits. Linda: Well, that early we didn't come to the Mount to bathe [swim], so that was not a problem. It was quite a few years later that we bought a bathing suit. But I am sure nobody tried it on at the store. Today is Tuesday, June 28, 2011, and Linda Chavez is back here with me, S. Victoria Marie Forde, in a room at the Motherhouse to continue her oral history, her amazing oral history. Linda, let's talk about the variety of boards that you have been on. I counted fifteen boards--six national boards and nine local boards. Is there anything outstanding that you can think of about being on any of those boards? Is there anything that you would like to mention? Linda: Well, I think, especially as a young Sister I was really happy to have the experience of being on national boards. And I remember, I can't remember the sister's name who was very prominent in our Community [S. Mary Janet Miller], she had been an officer, and she asked me to take her place on a board which was the National Catholic Conference for Interracial Justice. That was in the 70s. It gave me an opportunity as an Hispanic sister to be present to people who are talking about the changes in respect for other nationalities in the country. Victoria: And I see that you have received many honors. The ones I see on your resume are one that you received was the S. Mary Lea Human Service Award from the College, and the 20th Annual New Mexico Conference on Aging in appreciation for dedicated services to the seniors of New Mexico. And a special achievement award, the Senior Foundation Senior Hall of Fame in Albuquerque, and also you are in the Hall of Fame at St. Pius High School. Is there anything special you want to talk about with that? Linda: I think being on the Hall of Fame in Albuquerque is the fact that we did work through S.E.T. with a number of communities of seniors. And I think that was probably the reason and having been the director of it. Victoria: Were you the only woman in that? Linda: No. I would have been the only Sister. Victoria: The only Sister in that Hall of Fame?! �We haven't talked about S.E.T. yet, but would you like to talk about S.E.T.? If you don't mind, I would rather hold off for that a little bit. In 1978 you started a Scripture group. You are such an initiator of things. Could you tell us a little bit about that – at your home in Albuquerque? Linda: Well, I just feel that one of the things we need, I need, is to share Scripture with someone. It makes it more meaningful. I think we can read and read and not apply, and I guess I learned it here. I don't know where [I learned] of having groups to get together, and I think it comes out of maybe even the movement of where they were having prayer groups, charismatic groups, you know. And I do think that sharing Scripture is so important, and so I invited a few women. And it comes out also of working with the Cursillo because the Cursillo forms groups. After the Cursillo the women are to meet with a group of women every week and discuss their life, their Christian life, and that wasn't as easy for me to do as it was if I had my own group. And I had friends, and we decided to start talking about the Scriptures and get ready for the Sunday to come. It has been a real wonderful experience to know that I am going to be reading the Scriptures with others, and it started way back in '79, and it just kept up. Victoria: And this is lay women and Sisters, right? Linda: Oh yes, a mixture. Mostly lay women at first, and then some of the Sisters did join. Victoria: And someone in that group dedicated a book to you? Linda: Well, Nancy Morrison, who is a teacher at the University of New Mexico and is a psychiatrist was one of the members of my group, and she does, when she and her partner were writing, she does dedicate the one book, I am one of the ones she dedicated it to, and I was really honored my that. Victoria: It was an excellent book too. Then your home, besides being a place for the Scripture group, is certainly a place for community building. Do you want to talk about how you gathered the Sisters of Charity and not just in Albuquerque but in New Mexico actually, isn't it, or in Texas when they were there? Linda: Well I guess being an initiator anyway, you know I gather people, and so I think it is just part of my nature. It is not that I decided that this is the thing to do, but I like to invite people, and no matter where I have been, having been the Home Economics teacher and also the buyer of food, you tend to feed people. That is one way of gathering them. So I don't remember how that. . . . I think it did come out of the Cursillo movement. We decided to start meeting, and I know especially Marie Baca [was a result of her cursillo]. . . . Victoria: She is an Associate? Linda: No, she is not an Associate. She has been in the group forever. She didn't want to meet with the Cursillo women because her husband wasn't meeting with his group. So I asked her if she wanted to join us. So she has been one of the most faithful since way back in '78. But it is nice, and it has been going on, and we meet every Tuesday night to get ready for the Sunday. �Victoria: That is still the Scripture group you are talking about? What about the Sisters of Charity? That's what I was thinking of. Linda: Well, most of the time I had been in some kind of leadership, and so you gather, and it is just the same old thing that I am an initiator, and you start saying, "Let's celebrate this Jubilee," or "Let's do this," and you know you need somebody to start it, and I am one of those starters I guess you would call it. Victoria: And I have been the recipient of some of those wonderful celebrations and delicious food. Then you do have celebrations now? You are kind of moving over, you said that you are moving over to a new place, but I have seen how many people in your little apartment still, you know, gathered, somehow you do that. Linda: Well, twenty-four last Christmas, and we all fit! We play games and it was fun. Victoria: You said there were how many when you went to Albuquerque and now there are . . . ? Linda: When I went back in '69, we were close to 72 sisters between Albuquerque and Santa Fe. But you have to understand we had two hospitals, a high school and grades schools, and now we are down to 10. Victoria: And even so you are still gathering. Linda: Yes. Victoria: Now you have a lot of volunteer work in your resume. I didn't even count how many. But right now you are still a volunteering in six places including Good Shepherd. Shall we move on to Good Shepherd, but you have to tell us how you got to the Good Shepherd. You were in S.E.T. and maybe you should tell us… Linda: No, S.E.T. has nothing to do with the Good Shepherd. Victoria: No, but I mean you were working with S.E.T. before you went to Good Shepherd ,and do you want to tell us a little bit about S.E.T. before you are finished. Linda: Well, when we were working with St. Joseph Community Health, one of the things we had was a number of clinics, and we visited the older people and nurses would take their vital signs, and they knew we were coming once a month. So that person came often. And then when St. Joseph took over the clinics and things, soon they dropped the clinics. They only had. . . Now their goal is only to take care of children from zero to five which is fine, but it dropped all of the seniors. So S.E.T., which stands for Service, Empowerment, Transformation, did try to continue for some time with St. Joseph you know to help, but they dropped the money to pay the nurses, and so we had to change it. Victoria: At first was S.E.T. of Albuquerque? It became S.E.T. of New Mexico, didn't it? Linda: It has always been S.E.T. for Health of New Mexico. Victoria: And you were the one who got all the nurses volunteering. Linda: Well, some were volunteering, and some of the S.E.T. nurses were paid for because you can't have everybody being a freelancer, but we had a lot of volunteers too. �Victoria: Do you have any idea how many nurses you had? I bet you had many. Linda: It is too far away from. . . . Victoria: So after S.E.T. closed, or you left S.E.T., then you found another job, or another volunteer position I should say. Linda: Well, I'm trying to get it chronologically in my head, but one day I was at a meeting at the Brothers of Good Shepherd because I am on the Vocation Committee for the Archdiocese, and Brother Charles had taken me around to see what they do there, and during the meeting I kept saying, "I really never have worked with the real poor, materially poor." And it was bothering m, and so after the meeting I said to Brother Charles, " I need to do something down here." Now when I say "down here," it is in a poor area of Albuquerque and we would always consider it "down there." Victoria: What is happening at the Good Shepherd place? Linda: And so he said, "I can't talk about it today because I have another meeting, but can I see you tomorrow and we will talk about it?" And he wanted to know what I have done, and so at the end of that he said, "How would you like to be our spiritual counselor?" And I said, "What do I have to do?" And he said, "Listen." Well, that is a challenge. So I said, "Well, I would like to do that, and maybe I could come on Tuesdays and Thursdays." So I go every Tuesday and Thursday from 9:00 to 12:00, and they announce that I am present and they can come to the counseling room I am in. Victoria: Can you describe a little more about the Good Shepherd ministry? Linda: They have in residence homeless men ages from fourteen to maybe fifty-five, and they help them not only to start taking care of what their life has to be, but also to keep them safe. Many of them are trying to rehabilitate from alcohol or drugs or both. They can be there six to nine months. It is a rigid program, but it is excellent because if they can succeed in that, they are open to going back into the world. I am there twice a week to see anybody. The thing that is important is it's not that the Brothers just don't want to do what I am doing, but they don't have time. There are only four or five Brothers in the whole program. They are busy with administration and all of that. So I am free to just listen, and sometimes it is an hour, an hour and a half with one person. And as Charles said, "I don't have that kind of time." It is really wonderful. Victoria: They also serve meals don't they too? Linda: At the center every day at 3:00 the public is free to come for a meal, and it can be men, women and children. They usually have approximately three hundred every day. They don't feed on Sunday. It is one of the only places they can get a meal and so they have many, many there and then they do have the ones that are in residence. Victoria: And they are also working to help feed the people. Linda: Oh, they do help feed them, and they have a number of volunteers that come in every day. Victoria: Today is June 26, 2012, and Linda Chavez is here to finish her oral history, and there might be some overlapping, but Linda has had such an interesting life that it won't �matter. So, Linda, tell us about your time teaching and watching the ordination of deacons. Linda: I don't remember the date, but it was in the 1970s, I think, that a representative from the Bishop's office called me and asked if I would be one of five women that he has chosen to be trained for the diaconate, and I said yes. And so I think three of us persevered for a year or year and a half, and we went to all the meetings with the deacons and their wives. And occasionally there was a need for someone to teach the sacraments or whatever, and it is very hard to find someone to just step in and so one of the deacons said, " Sister teaches theology at Pius [High School]; she can teach us." So very often I was the substitute for one of the teachers, and so it was kind of a crazy thing to be in the class and teaching it as well. But we persevered through all the meetings, and it was obvious that some of the men resented the five women that were there. But however, I can't say that they were against us, but they would make remarks, "Why are they here?" And so it was time for them to be ordained deacons, and we were still hanging in there. And the Bishop invited us to come to the ceremony, and Archbishop Sanchez announced that while we were ready to be, we were trained already, but he did not have the authority to ordain us. And he said, "However, I want you to come up, and I will consecrate you for service." In my mind I did that long ago. And so we went to the ordination, and it was a little sad to be in the back of the line and know that the ceremony was not really for us. And there was just a kind of a little blessing at the end. So that was the beginning and the end. What did happen during, and even after that, I helped with some of the training. I don't remember how many years that lasted, but I did. Victoria: Several years? Linda: I think so. They'd call and say, "Sister, would you teach sacraments?" or "Would you teach . . .whatever?" Victoria: You told me one time about the wives insisting on going up with their husbands. Linda: No, that was every ordination of deacons. I don't think it was special. [They walk into church with their spouses.] Victoria: Tell us about becoming vicar. Linda: When I went to Albuquerque in 1969, I had been in Lansing, and I was on the Sisters Council--we formed it, in Lansing. And I was asked to be president, and Bishop of Lansing was very pleased, but very disappointed when I told him I was leaving the diocese to return to Albuquerque. And so when I got to Albuquerque, I asked around if there was a council for religious, and there was not an active council. So I went to see [Arch]bishop Davis, and he said, "I want you to form a Sisters Council. So I contacted the different religious communities, and at that time we had a representative of every congregation on the Council, and it got �to be too big. And then we had, like Sisters of Charity of any color or kind, or Dominicans, and then it was a little smaller and it was better. Bishop Davis started that, and then he said to me, "Well, other dioceses have a vicar. I guess I'll appoint you vicar." And I said to him, "I think the women want a man." I did say that, and I think it was true because I was conscious that that was the right feeling because when we went down south to [see] a kind of a cloistered group in New Mexico, I can't remember their name right now, but the president of that little group was constantly talking only to Father Kemper who was the other vicar for religious. We were both called vicar for religious. But she was much more ready to talk to him than to me, so I think that was a wise thing that there was a man and a woman. And later on though I went to. . . . Victoria: First, Linda, he wanted you to be vicar, one vicar, but then you suggested that he have a man too. That's when Father Kemper. . . . Linda: Yes, we were working together all this time, so he was vicar, and I was vicar. It turned out to be a good idea because some congregations were used to having a man come to do all the things vicars do like getting someone ready to become a member of their congregation and to ask if they joined willingly. So that was how it started. Archbishop Davis was one of the first to have a woman vicar, but there was a Sister Clare—I can't remember what congregation—around Ohio [corrected: Michigan] area, and she was vicar. Victoria: At the same time as you were? Linda: At the same time, yes. Victoria: So you two were probably the first women vicars in the United States. Linda: That's right. Victoria: That's wonderful. Linda: And so, and there have been women vicars ever since both in Albuquerque and other places. What's the next question? Victoria: Before I go on to the next question, is there anything that happened that was outstanding while you were a vicar? Linda: Only that it was very difficult to be a full time teacher and a vicar because you only had weekends to visit anybody, and that was usually what the vicar does. And it was good that we had both because Jim could go to some because he could get off . I mean he was a pastor, but. . . . Victoria: He was a full time pastor, and you were a full time teacher. Linda: Right. Victoria: Was the archdiocese all of the State of New Mexico, or was it divided already? �Linda: It was already divided. Victoria: But it was a pretty large area. Linda: It was very large, too large. Victoria: It's really from the north to. . . . Linda: There is a , --the diocese goes up north, I think, to the border and then south to Las Cruces; Las Cruces had a bishop, and Gallup had a bishop. Victoria: Still very large. All right. Now you said you were a full time teacher, and one of the interesting things you did was the innovative teaching of spirituality and the arts? Linda: We called it Spirituality through the Arts. Victoria: This is at St. Pius High School, Albuquerque. Linda: I was the head of the department of theology, and for two summers before we started, I took S. Augusta [Zimmer] 's class at the Mount. And while Sisters of Charity had taught me music, art was not ever mentioned if you were not an artist. You didn't know anything about art. And that summer, those two summers that I took those classes, I thought, "We are so lacking. . . ." In most Catholic schools do not have money for an art teacher or a music teacher for all pupils, not just for musicians." So especially after the second year of taking her class, I decided I would have a unit of my Christian Family Living as art formation so that that family would appreciate music and art. So I had the art appreciation unit for about six or nine months, nine weeks in the course. And it was interesting how much the students appreciated it. I used to get slides and pictures from the library, and, you know, to be able to recognize a Monet or to recognize a Van Gogh or whatever. . . To this day people tell me they still remember the artists, and this is a Home Ec class you understand, but it really was my desire in teaching Home Economics it was to teach Family Life Education, and I did all the units. And the one that some of the boys appreciated was when I would bring some of my former pupils' babies would come to the class, so that the boys could learn how to hold a baby, and that was great. The art appreciation was also well taken, and I thought that was a good add-on to the course. Victoria: Especially with all the art in New Mexico! I mean from Georgia O'Keefe, the outsider, to the Hispanic and the Native American art, oh my gosh! Linda: I don't know if I concentrated on that because I was really following Sister Augusta's class because to understand what kind of art you're looking at, and who are the great artists are. I'm not putting New Mexico down, but this was trying to get it more universal. Victoria: Now, you did talk about the Brothers, the time with the Brothers. Linda: That's the last thing I've been doing. �Victoria: Yes, and that's in our first interview, but I wondered if you wanted to talk anymore about that, and especially we had kind of left off where they were feeding other people. You know, they had dinners there, and. . . . Linda: The program at the Brothers of the Good Shepherd is awesome. I was talking to Father [Joe] Bruening, and he said he had never seen anything working like that. And they have thirty –four men who are in a program of rehabilitation from either alcohol or drugs, or both. And it's a . . . . Victoria: And you said they were convicts? Linda: The reason you say they are convicts is he used the word. Victoria: Brother ? Linda: Father Bruening. He used the word, but most of the men who end up at Good Shepherd have either an addiction, and usually if you have an addiction, you're not too honest either. So some of them. . . You steal so that you get drinks, and you break into houses so that you can buy drink or whatever, so that's the kind how it's double. But they have to go through s pretty rigorous evaluation for them to get in, it's for six or nine months. And it's the best program in the state which gets the best results. Some of have been there twice. And it's interesting; sometime the first question I asked is "How did you get here?" And it's awfully interesting to find out that somebody in Pennsylvania or Philadelphia or wherever comes to the Brothers of the Good Shepherd. "Who told you about it?" "Oh, somebody said that it was a good program,"and they write and come and get in. There are about thirty-four men at any given time in the program. Now the men do all the work in the center. They plan the meals, they prepare the meals, they serve them. And at 3 o'clock every day (I think there's one day they don't serve.) the public is open to anybody on the street, man, woman, or child. Victoria: For dinner. Linda:For a meal [for the public]. The men serve it. And it's amazing when you're talking to the men privately, how impressed they are when that giving that service. Victoria: You said there one hundred served? Linda: Any given day two to three hundred people. Victoria: One meal a day. Linda: One meal, but of course they get all their meals. [Residents get three meals a day.] Victoria: Well, I've take a tour with you through the facility, and I saw how, just how loving the men were with you, hugging you and so happy to see you. Linda: Oftentimes the people have come in to see me, you know, recognize me if I'm not in the office, but around. I guess for me for a person to trust you with their life story—it's awesome. And I guess I hadn't experienced things like that before in my life, and it's just a like a privilege to be gifted that way. �Victoria: And also the Brothers have been very good to the Sisters, allowing them to have events there? Linda: Well, not at the Center, of course, but a few years ago they—I don't know what gave them the feeling that they were going to get more members, and someone said, "You're going to have to build and make your home larger." And they built a whole big section which is almost always empty because they're about –I don't know. . . if they're about six to eight people there. Victoria: Brothers. Linda: Brothers. And so whenever we have company, men coming into the city, I send them over there. Brother Gerard says he just feels good when he can offer the place to somebody else. Victoria: But the Sisters have had events there? Linda: Oh, and of course we've got a big kitchen and dining room, and we've started to go there for some events. Sister Vincentia [Roney] is over there a lot. I mean I don't know what. . . . She works with them too, so she says, "Oh, let's have it over at the Good Shepherd," because they have a great big dining room and a big kitchen, and they're very accommodating. Victoria: Well, that's nice, especially since there are no big convents to have a big meeting. Linda: That's right. Victoria: And I've seen them at your apartment, "hanging out the windows," spread out. Well, is there anything else you want to add about your life? You know, I have some other questions, but just about your own life. Linda: I'm trying to think. Victoria: Linda, it's now Sept. 4, 2012, and a lot has happened since we had the last session. Since then you've moved to the Motherhouse to live, so would you want to say anything about that? Linda: Well, it's a very easy transition, and I think we were very surprised and happy that we got such a warm welcome, walked in the dining room, and everyone stood up and clapped. Rose (Therese Wich) was very happy too, and everything is running very smoothly. And I'm very happy, I mean with the decision, and it was time to come. Victoria: We just want to finish this oral history, but I was wondering if you could give us some idea of what your dreams are or what your hopes are for the future of the Community or the Church or whatever you want to talk about. Linda: Well, I think we all want to think ahead and see what's going to happen, and I hope that I and all the Sisters can be open to the plan that God has because we don't know what is in the future, and I for one hope that I'm ready to receive whatever blessings or whatever comes next. Victoria: Thank you very much, Linda. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chavez, Sister Linda, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48 Minutes 31 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Albuquerque (N.M.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Linda Chavez, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC June 27, 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Linda Chavez by Sister Victoria Marie Forde. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chavez, Sister Linda, SC; Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/27/2011 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Linda Chavez, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC June 27, 2011 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1926-2011 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/53676e44aeecfbeee37f74c70531c4e7.jpg df4397f8e24e73d88d3e3e8919b01cca https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b4da064b12e781bbf6c244db4d6658ea.pdf 5c78eb0d3f7b244442ed4360be72d24d PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Mary Ellen Gleason, SC Sister Louis Marie Bryan, SC January 26, 1998 Sister Noreen Neary, SC October 28, 2020 Sister Mary Ellen: Sister Louis, perhaps we could talk about the educational preparation that the sisters who volunteered to serve in the Virgin Islands received. Sister Louis Marie: That is not exactly an easy question for me to answer. [I enrolled in] Saints Peter and Paul School [in Saint Thomas, Virgin Islands] in 1933 and my first encounter with the sisters was to have them prepare me for first communion with Sister Gertrude Agnes [Goode]. I was in the public schools, first and second grades. And in third grade, I went to Sts. Peter and Paul School and was educated by the Sisters of Charity from third grade to eighth grade. My experience with the sisters was that they were excellent teachers. They were excellently prepared to give me what was truly a grammar school education, not just elementary. And I know that because the reading and writing skills, particularly that they taught me, have lasted me my entire life. I remember learning how to diagram sentences and to really understand how to read and how to write, to comprehend whatever you read and to write, perfect grammar. We graduated in eighth grade and we had only from first to eighth grade in those days. And when I left Catholic school, we went to the one public high school in the Virgin Islands…in St. Thomas, the Charlotte Amalie High School. And those of us who had come up from Sts. Peter and Paul were head and shoulders above the majority of the class. That's not to say the others weren't well educated, but we seemed to have been a touch above the public school. And we had excellent teachers in the public high school, excellent. So that when we went on from there to the college, we were very well prepared. But as everyone knows, the preparation has to begin in elementary school and grammar school. So, to answer your question, my guess would be based on my experience that they were eminently well prepared. Sister Mary Ellen: I see. Then, when did you leave the Virgin Islands? Was it immediately after high school? Sister Louis Marie: You mean for entrance into the community? Or what? Sister Mary Ellen: Even before entrance… Sister Louis Marie: OK, I left the Virgin Islands in 1945. And graduated from high school in June 1945 and left the islands in August 1945. 1 �Sister Mary Ellen: I see. And then you came to the United States…I mean to study… Sister Louis Marie: I began my undergraduate education at New York University, the School of Education in Washington Square, NY, but that I had to terminate the beginning of the second semester freshman year because I had a serious eye problem which flared up and I had to withdraw from school for half a year. In September 1946 I transferred to the undergraduate college of liberal arts at Howard University in Washington, DC and studied there with a major in sociology and a minor in economics, then graduated cum laude in 1949 with an AB in Liberal Arts, Sociology. Sister Mary Ellen: OK, and then I know you entered the congregation in the 1950s, so there's a gap… Sister Louis Marie: There is… Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: So, were you out working…at that time? Or did you do more studying? Did you… Sister Louis Marie: Well, immediately on graduation from Howard University College of Liberal Arts, I returned to the Virgin Islands and worked as a child welfare worker in the Department of Social Welfare. Then I realized that I wanted to do social work, but I didn't have nearly the educational preparation to do that. I had been assigned as a child welfare worker to work with dependent or neglected or delinquent children…a mixed bag. And I loved the children, but I felt so inadequate to their needs. At the same time, the government of the Virgin Islands was just getting the extension of the public assistance program to the islands and had just established a Division of Child Welfare and they would pay for a master's degree in social work on the condition that the applicant would work a year for each thousand dollars they paid. Well, it was right down my alley because l had wanted to work at home. So I went to what was then The New York School of Social Work. It is now the Columbia University School of Social Work and it was a wonderful experience. The school was located in the Carnegie mansion at 91st Street and Fifth Avenue. Yes, it was ideal for studying. So, I thoroughly enjoyed that master's level program and, for my master's thesis, I chose to write a history of the development of public welfare in the Virgin Islands because we had been owned by Denmark for two hundred and fifty years and our... although we were an American territory and we had the American public welfare system, the overtones, the attitudes and even some of the held-over programs reflected the Scandinavian approach to social welfare. So that thesis was a joy to do. A very useful piece of work. So then, I went home on completion of that and got my job back, first in child welfare, but 2 �then pretty soon I was asked to be a Supervisor of Public Assistance. So, I was in social work on the islands and enjoying it very much when low and behold in 1955, January 3rd, the newspaper carried an announcement that the United States had extended its Fulbright Scholarship program to the Virgin Islands and people could apply. I had a master's degree. I was free and single, uncommitted and I wanted to go to Europe. So, I applied for a Fulbright Scholarship to go to Denmark to study the Scandinavian social welfare system and programs and to see what tie-ins there were related to the islands and our systems. I was awarded a Fulbright and left for a year's study in Denmark and that was exciting. It was an independent study program. I went with other Fulbright scholars who were in different fields and we all, for the first month, studied Danish language, Danish history, Danish culture and had field trips to enhance that. I lived in a student residence with a Danish speaking student, so the language experience was real for me. I was able to use it and use it fluently. And then I planned my study with the help of professional social workers over there to research the literature and to visit different program sites. So that as I read about care for the elderly, for instance, I could go to a facility that cared for the elderly and see how it was carried out. It was a fascinating experience. So I did that piece of research then after the study period ended, I toured Europe with some other students for two months or so. Then I got home and went back to Social Welfare Department and the very next year, 1957, I petitioned to enter the Sisters of Charity and was accepted. That brings me into entrance and the studying didn't stop there. Sister Mary Ellen: I know you had some very rich experiences after you had entered the Sisters of Charity where you could use a lot of this educational background you already had… Sister Louis Marie: So I entered [the Congregation] with a master's degree in social work and my first assignment was to teach in the Juniorate…which is a preparatory school for girls…and that was a little bit funny. I had to teach intermediate algebra and solid geometry because my high school transcript had showed good marks in math. But I wasn't a math major, so that was a bit of a challenge. And I did my best with a lot of help from Sister Barbara Garland who was a novice. But the algebra course was for elective students and they were very bright. I think they knew more about it than I, but we managed. After my year of novitiate I was asked to teach in the sociology department [of the College of Saint Elizabeth] and that was much more in line with what I felt able to do competently. I taught student nurses and I taught the junior professed sisters’ Saturday classes. After I made final vows, my first mission was to St. Mary's Hospital [in Passaic, NJ] to work in the Child Center. But I was out of teaching and back in natural social work. But this time it was clinical social work. And my clinical preparation had not been much because on the master’s level I was being prepared for child welfare work for the broader scope, rather than narrow clinical. There were two very fine clinics, one for child guidance, emotionally 3 �disturbed children and work with their parents as well, and the other was for retarded persons in the Bergen and Passaic County areas, diagnostic service and some counseling. Both clinics were staffed with top-notch specialists and the diagnostic work over at the retarded children's clinic was hooked right into St. Mary's Hospital so you could get a full complement of medical and clinical work along with psychological and social study. That was a most enriching experience. But I was a sort of the junior member on the team, if you will. The only religious…maybe the only Catholic even. Certainly the only Black woman…and not, as I said, trained for psychiatric social work. But then I did a lot of course work at a mental health center in New York and that was very, very helpful. So I had a rich, I'd say almost about twelve years actual training and preparation and experience in clinical work. And at the center, we worked as a team with a child psychiatrist, clinical psychologist and psychiatric social worker, so it was one of the richest experiences I could have dreamed of. Well, St. Mary's decided that we would develop an inpatient unit, so the child center would be closed in favor of inpatient and that's where I felt that, look, if I'm going to be part of this, I need to be up and running with everybody else. So I asked and received permission from the Congregation to work towards a doctor of social welfare. I applied to Smith College School of Social Work because they had a very good clinical program and my application was accepted, but then I was invited up for a personal interview and that did not go well at all. When I went up, the atmosphere was very, very cool. I didn't feel welcome at all. And the people who interviewed me, the first woman who interviewed me made it quite clear that if I were going to attend there as a student in the doctoral program, I would have to wear secular clothes. Well, that didn't sit well with me at all. I, for me, wearing the habit of Sister of Charity was important. The community wasn't requiring me to wear a habit. We were free to wear what we chose. And it was my choice to wear a habit and veil – deliberately so because I had felt from my clinical practice at St. Mary's Child Center that the habit made a difference with people with emotional problems. For some persons, the habit reassured them. They felt they knew what a nun was and that I could be trusted with their innermost secrets and pains and worries and so on. For other people, the habit was a…not a deterrent, but a stimulus. They would be angry and they would be…you know, and the anger would come forth because of whatever feelings they had about religion or habits or nuns or whatever…things as being Black, some people would react to that. Anyway, I was not about to change my choice to suit Smith. And furthermore, I wasn't sure they wanted me because they were kind of derogatory and, you know, they said if you need a wardrobe, we could give you one… Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, dear… Sister Louis Marie: Yes, so I figured, well, this I don't need. So I came back and decided I was not going to Smith because I wanted to wear my habit and so I reapplied to Columbia, my alma mater. And although it was late in the day, Columbia was into taking black students in their doctoral program because Columbia was sitting on the edge of Harlem and making a big push to include more minorities in their student body. So, I got in with no trouble. The only thing 4 �was, Columbia's program was not "clinical." I could make it in case work, but it was not as highly clinical. But it was a good program. But more important was God's handling this because when I went to Columbia, I decided to live at the International House where I had lived as a secular on the master's level and where I had loved the experience. So, I went to International House, habit and all, and found there a delightful sister, a Sister of Saint Ann, a native of India. Anyway, she was bright as anything. She already had a Ph.D. in economics, but to teach in India, she needed a Ph.D. or some education courses, so she was going to teach in Pelham…Sister Mary Benjamin was her name. She was in habit, too. And we got to be great friends and we got to be accepted at “I House” as two little nuns… “I House,” at the same time, had changed in composition from when I'd been there in the early 1950s…There were many more Africans and Asians and…it always was international…the preponderance in earlier years had been European. So now there are African Americans and everything. So, of course, we had a Black caucus going. We made a contribution there. But at school, at Columbia, the campus now was moved up from out of the Carnegie mansion and on to the Morningside Heights campus. And they had, on the master's level, a very active Black caucus, a Black students’ organization and the few Blacks of us who were on a doctoral level met with them because they needed lots of help. Many of them had been admitted without the kind of solid preparation you need…particularly communication skills, so we would tutor them and make weekend retreats with them. I, then, got an orientation that I had not had when I came to the Sisters of Charity in the 1950s. I was on this campus [the Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth] when you saw very few blacks. Very few…even in service positions. And there was one other Black sister, Lorena Tyson. And then when I went to St. Mary's Hospital…the clients who were from around there were very few Blacks. So I had not been attuned to the Black situation really. But when I went to “I House” and back to Columbia and met the Blacks there…it was the education I needed much more than a clinical education to put me in touch with the world that was. And…it was the late 1960s…and right around that time, the National Black Catholic Clergy Caucus got organized in April '68 and the National Black Catholics Conference in August '68. So, by that time, I was finding out who I am as a Black religious woman and it was a marvelous gift from God. I mean, how the pieces fit together…unbelievable. So with Afro studies, the course work was good, but the living experience was infinitely more important. And I finished the course work in two years and had a dissertation to do and I was really tired of being a student then. And my job at St. Mary's…I left because I thought I was going to have go into the inpatient psychiatric work. My job was no longer existent. And one time I visited Convent Station and [Sister Hildegarde Marie Mahoney, president of the College of Saint Elizabeth] said, "I wish you were free." I said, "Why?" She said, "Because we need somebody for the Upward Bound program." And I said, "I am free." So I came back to Convent as a Director of the Upward Bound program, succeeding Sister Lucille Anne [Egan] and I was beautifully prepared for it. And it was a thrilling and exciting experience and the program was one of the finest in the region. I mean, we were rated as the third best for many years. And it faced many challenges. We ran an all-girls program, working with "disadvantaged" minority students, mostly Black from inner-city Newark. And 5 �then, after a few years, the government decided that the programs had to be co-ed. We either would run a co-ed program of get out of the [program]. So, I prayed a lot…and was consulted and the President of the College and government agreed we could do co­ed program. So I prayed mightily. The program would be co-ed, but the college would remain single sex. So we ran it and we ran it successfully. The women in Santa Rita Hall and the men at [indecipherable]. And it got to be a great program. We lost the funding for it…I do not know why, except that many people in the field thought well, with cycle sight of our ten years that it was time for somebody else... I moved from Upward Bound to the Educational Opportunity Fund directorship then and the person who succeeded me at Upward Bound failed to get funding for the program. So, I moved to the EOF briefly... maybe about a year…and then was invited to go home to the Virgin Islands. Anyway, for my doctoral dissertation then, since I had finished the course work and had worked with Upward Bound, I got permission to do a study on what impact the Upward Bound program had on students who were coming from inner-cities north at the time of Black liberation. The study was to explore which influence would exert more influence on young people. The Black Liberation Movement – they were in the thick of it…in Newark…shattering bombs and everything during the Black Revolution – or Upward Bound. Upward Bound was an invitation to them to join the establishment, you know, to become part of the mainstream. And Black Liberation was not going that route. So, it was exciting to work with my own measuring instrument and everything. I got to study population, not just from our program, but from Princeton, Rutgers and our college segment which had been initially for women. Princeton had been initially all men. Rutgers was always co-ed, so it was good. Anyway, the study showed that more people responded to the establishment poll than the other poll. Anyhow, it was a good study. And students in the social work program in the islands have used both the master's thesis and the doctoral dissertation as research documents for some of their studies. So that's gratifying. Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, of course it is. Sister Louis Marie: Anyway, I got an invitation to go home and I was given permission to accept it. And my first invitation was to serve as a member of the parish team at Saints Peter and Paul. And I said to the pastor, a native of the Virgin Islands, "I haven't lived in a parish for the last twenty years. I don't even know what…" He said, "You don't have to know." He said, "You'd be on my team and you'll just do it." The Congregation asked for something in writing, so he sent a list of ten things. He said, "You can do any, all or none of these." And so I went home and was winging it. And that pastor got changed the next spring. Sister Mary Ellen: What were some of the things you had to do... that he had on that list to do? Sister Louis Marie: Develop a community in the western end of the island. People who lived out west were coming up to the cathedral and he thought maybe it was time to develop a new parish down there…develop some kind of community. So we used to have weekend Masses 6 �and [unintelligible], but the people really did not want that. They lived down there but they worked in town and they wanted to be part of the cathedral. Some of the other things that I did was a prison ministry. Got a group of people who wanted to go to a jail and we went every week and that, too, was a good experience. We would sing and preach the scriptures…pray with them and gosh, what are some of the other things we did? Eucharistic minister, the usual pastoral things. But it didn't go too well because it was not really a team. The pastor was a very strong man and some people…you have to be a team…you have to have a team personality. I don't think he was a team person. So I wasn't integrated into any team. But the bishop of the diocese, [Bishop Edward John Harper of the Diocese of Saint Thomas], had always been addressing having me in a diocese and he had written to the Congregation years before to ask them to let me come, since I was a social worker and they had told him no. So, when I got there and I wasn't too busy after the pastor was transferred, the bishop asked me would I serve as a family life director. He had no family life program. I said, "Sure." And through the bishop, I learned what natural family planning was. He said to me there's a conference on the [Billings Ovulation Method]. I didn't even know what the man was talking about. And would you go? I said, "Sure." So I went to New York and I ran into [Sister Mary Rosalie Curran, SC] who was teaching NFP (Natural Family Planning). And she gave me a crash course and I met big name people in the field and so that started me off on preparation to become qualified as a Natural Family Planning instructor. You had to take special training and I got trained by some of the best people and went back to my diocese. Then one thing led to another. We started a permanent program there and I was asked to show the faculty, in fact to teach them, you know, basic counseling skills that they might be called on to use and I also taught them all about humanity, so that they could be prepared to teach people that. We graduated a lot of human sexuality education for young people in our schools and in the public schools for other church groups and I mean non-denominational groups. That was a big thing then. So, family life apostolate was getting into a lot of church work that required social work skills and at the same time I served on a lot of boards and committees in the civic community, you know, as a good representative for the Church's teaching and as a native and as a woman. So then when our second bishop was appointed, [Bishop Sean O’Malley, OFM Cap.], he asked me to serve as Chancellor for the Diocese. “Now look,” I said, “I only know what a chancery is, Bishop Harper hadn't had a chancery per se. He did his work in his office at the bishop's residence. I helped, as his assistant, but with, you know…” So Bishop O'Malley said, "If I can be bishop, you can be chancellor." [unintelligible] That I was a native and a Black. I was a woman. I was religious. I was a social worker. A combination of many, many things that God had put into my life, you know. So I was placed to be of service and never quite knew... never quite had a job description for chancellor, so it ended up I did whatever the bishop called on me to do. So there then we had Hurricane Hugo. And that knocked St. Croix for a loop. And the Catholic Social Services had gotten a small grant to do a mental health program in St. Croix. And with the hurricane, it could not get started. It was impossible. So Bishop asked me to rewrite the proposal, but to restructure it so that it could be done on St. Thomas. So, I did that 7 �and then began to serve as a head of the mental health program, funded by the government but run by the church. So I did mental health work for a while, using all the background experience and preparation I had ten years ago. And then, what happened next? Next, we got a new bishop. [Bishop Elliot Griffin Thomas], a high school classmate of mine. He was in the public school and he had been at the top of his class and he said when the students came up from St. Peter and Paul, try as he could, he couldn't get further than number three in the line-up. Sister Mary Ellen: I see… Sister Louis Marie: We've been good friends all along. So, his story is fascinating, too. He was a convert from Catholicism. Anyway, Bishop Elliot Thomas is our first Black bishop and from the area and he had been unanimously elected administrator by the priests there until the Pope named him bishop. Well, as administrator, he inherited me as chancellor. I enjoyed immensely working with Bishop Thomas, but then in March 1996, the Catholic Charities of the Virgin Islands ran into some serious problems and Bishop asked me would I be interim director while they tried to get it sorted out. So, I served for a year as interim director and chancellor, and then by 1997 I knew I couldn't do both. So I asked Bishop to relieve me of being chancellor so that I could give full attention to Catholic Charities which so needed what I had to offer. I was a professional social worker, I had a doctorate in social welfare, which wasn't clinical, which is what I needed for this kind of administrative work and so he said, "yes." So, as of March 1997, I am serving as the Executive Director of Catholic Charities in the Virgin Islands. And that brings us up to date. Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, fantastic. I want thank you very, very much, Sister Louis, for sharing all these wonderful experiences. 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bryan, Sister Louis Marie Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Louis Marie Bryan, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Bryan, Sister Louis Marie, S.C.; U.S. Virgin Islands; social work; Black sisters Description An account of the resource Description of her education, her career in social work, her experiences as a Black sister Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bryan, Sister Louis Marie, S.C.; Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 26, 1998 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Louis Marie Bryan, S.C. describes her early life, education and experiences as a Black sister Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant January 26, 1998 Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Social Service https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/2c9fec846b91d21718a8c208f7378c19.jpg 06a72fe5c1f98b2310b7f6fdf40395e6 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/fefae11f535f1120223344d5de6a773a.mp3 2e43bc3240f0f092fae74cf93a260119 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/87619c9a297b9373255a010440ecdf4d.pdf 97b1bd390c7aef9029db54c1e9100dee PDF Text Text Interview with Sister Lucia Mao Interviewer: S. Pat Saul NOTE TO READER: This interview seems to have been conducted in a restaurant. The background noises are very loud and make it difficult to understand at times. The interviewer began by asking: “How did you get connected with the Charities?” Through a Franciscan priest. First I have to start with the fact that I was a convert. I was baptized in July of 1946. After that I had to leave the city and come to the South where there was no church, of course. When Spring came I saw the trees and flowers, I realized that it was time for Easter. So I thought I had better go to find a church to fulfill my Easter Duties. That’s where I met a Franciscan priest. He asked me if I would like to go to Confession. I told him then that this would only be my second confession since I was baptized. He invited me to come back in the morning and he will be having Mass here. There would be only a handful of people there. So I went. When it was time for Communion, I kept on going, but he told me to wait until I was the last one to receive Communion.....and he gave me five hosts!!! Later I asked him why he had given me five hosts. He answered that this was his last Mass, and that he was leaving and he didn’t know when another priest would be coming... he was a Chinese priest. Then he asked me what I was doing. I answered that I would be graduating in May, and I have to get a salary. So, I would like to go to nursing school. He then told me that he knew somebody in Wuchang, Sister Francis Maria. I asked what kind of sisters are they? He said that he didn’t know. You see, he was a refugee from the North also, and he was not familiar with the Sisters. �2 Interviewer: Did your whole family come with you? No, not my whole family, just my aunt. You see, my mother was dead by that time, she had been killed by the Japanese, so I lived with my aunt. So my aunt, my uncle and my little niece came to the South, just the four of us. Interviewer: Did they convert to Catholicism, too? No, I am the only one and my younger brother. We went to Catholic school but we were not Catholic. The reason why we went to Catholic school was because, during the Japanese occupation, the Catholic school was the only decent school there was around there. They decided that they would build a dispensary. My grandmother had connection with the dispensary. When we were sick, she always dragged us there to see the Sisters. The Sisters there were not even nurses, they just dispensed ordinary medicine. They also had a school. That’s where we went to school, even though we were not Catholic, but they always had a religion class first, two hours in the morning. They didn’t ask if we wanted to attend, but we went and that is where I learned about religion. Then, we asked to be baptized. They wouldn’t want to baptize me, because I was a girl—in China when girls marry you have to go with your husband, whatever religion he is--. My brother was younger and he got baptized because he was a boy. When I was 16 or 17 we had a big war going on. The Japanese, where we lived, inside the city and the National Chinese outside the city. I went to the priest and said, you have to baptize me . He asked why. I said if I get killed by one of those guns, I won’t be baptized. He said, well, you could have the Baptism of Desire. I said, I know but I’d like to have the real thing. So, he baptized me. I had no one for my Sponsor, so he went to the dispensary and asked one of the Sisters. The Sisters were not supposed to, but that was an emergency . So I got baptized there. It wasn’t even a feast day. I told Father, if I don’t get baptized and I die, I’ll come and get you! Later, Father gave me the address of Sister Francis Maria. So, I thought, I’d better go and take a look and see if I’d like to go there. If not, I should make arrangements to go to another school. So, I went just to look. I told them that I wanted to be a Sister, but first I wanted to be a nurse. I would become a nurse and then I would go to become a Sister. �3 They said that they were building a hospital at that time. They suggested that I reverse, enter first, and then become a nurse later after you become a Sister, and I agreed. I had not told my aunt or uncle. At the time that I had left, my aunt had given me enough clothes for two weeks. I didn’t tell them what I was going to do. So, I decided I wanted to enter, and I did. I entered in September. In November, the Mother General sent a word for us. The Professed Sisters, the Novices had to come to the States. But we who were Postulants did not have to go, we had a choice, stay or come. At that time there were seven of us and we talked it over. We thought that it would take about 3 years and by that time we would finish our novitiate and then we would be back home. And so we decided that we would come. When we got to Shanghai, we had to wait for Pauline and two other young ladies who were joining us. They still had to get their passports. While I was there, I wrote to my aunt and uncle and told them that I had entered instead of nursing. Then, my uncle wrote me a long letter saying that I didn’t know what I was doing, didn’t we treat you right? And he said, if you don’t like it you can come home. We thought at that time, that we wouldn’t be gone not more than three years, we didn’t think that the war wouldn’t last that long. But it lasted longer than anybody expected. You asked about my parents. They are not Catholic. But, one thing, my father did have a connection at one time. He went to Bejing and he studied with an order of priests who spoke French. So he spoke French. The priests came to our little town later, and they did not know how to speak English, I mean Chinese. When they spoke French, my father would interpret for them. When people found out that he was not even Catholic they were surprised. AT THIS POINT THE INTERVIEWER ASKED ABOUT HER FAMILY. Many...you don’t want to know, there are a lot. I had one father, three mothers (she laughs ....there’s a whole bunch of us). My first mother, she had one boy. The other mother she had one older girl that died. And then the third wife she had six boys. Right now there are only three of them left. They are really my half brothers because my mother only had me. My younger brother and I went to school. Boys went to boys’ school and girls go to girls’. He was only nine months younger than I am. He is Catholic. �4 When I went home to Taiwan, his wife saw us going to church, and she said when you are not here your brother doesn’t go to church. See, they work 6 ½ days a week, they only get a half day off on Sunday, so he doesn’t always feel like going to church. INTERVIEWER: IS IT STILL UNDER STRICT CONTROL OVER THERE NOW? Not in Taiwan. In the Peoples Republic of China, I don’t know that much about it. When I went home in 1985, the church was open, but I understand that they are not under the jurisdiction of the Pope. So, my family won’t take me to church...I didn’t want to go, but the rest of the Chinese Sisters, they go. Now I think that Rome does recognize them. In Taiwan there are no restrictions . In Taiwan I have two brothers, cousins and nieces and nephews. The reason they are there in Taiwan is because they are all military people. My cousin in the navy, my brother in the army, my older brother is with the police, so they went there. They are all having a hard time right now. INTERVIEWER: DID YOU GET YOUR NURSES TRAINING OVER HERE? Yes. Mary Pauline and I both made our final vows and most of the time we worked in Mother Margaret Hall. After we made our final vows we thought we would spend the rest of our lives there, so we couldn’t go back to China. At that time, Mother Mary Romana was in office. When we got our Mission Letters we said you made a mistake that’s not for us...she said, yes, isn’t you name Lucia? I said yes, but I’m ready to go back to Mother Margaret Hall for the rest of my life. She said, well, you’d better go look in your letter and see what is in there . We were missioned to Good Samaritan, Dayton. After we read our letters we went to see Mother individually. She said to us, it takes an American girl three years to finish nursing, but now you can take four years, five years, since you will not be going back to China for a while . We made it in three years, with a very low score. Psychiatry was the worst part. We didn’t know the language our mistakes were mostly in multiple choice, we had to know the language in order to read it. But we made it in three years and then Mary Pauline and I were missioned out like the rest of them. �5 INTERVIEWER: WERE YOU ABLE TO GO TOGETHER? No, we were separated. She went to Kenton and I went to St. Joseph Infant Home. Later, I went to Trinidad, she went to (noisy, could not understand) Her specialty was psychiatry. She was so good! She was almost as good as the doctor. INTERVIEWER: WHAT WAS YOUR SPECIALTY? I would say operating and/or emergency room. That’s where I started in Trinidad, it was a small hospital. Sister Jeanne Roach was there. She worked what seemed like 33 hours in a 24 hour day...she did everything, OR, ER, nursing service and sometimes, she even had to take charge of a floor. After she left, there was no one for OR so I went there, but I was still on night duty. I liked it there very much. I like the Emergency Room, I even like OB. I wasn’t very good with OB, but in Trinidad they had few doctors and it was not easy to get a doctor during the night. They would claim that we did not know what we were talking about. When they give me a hard time, I would say, just go back to sleep, I’ll go deliver my own baby. He would say, don’t you dare, don’t you dare! and I always managed to get them there. One doctor signed the birth certificate and the woman said she would not pay the bill, because she told the Doctor, you didn’t do anything for my baby, Sister did! Yes I like Trinidad, I was there for 7 years. We often laughed when the people who didn’t have money would pay their bill with chickens, goats. One day when I was in the emergency room and was told that I did a very good job. The man came back with 12 eggs and he said that that was not in payment, it was for me. �6 INTERVIEWER: HOW MANY SISTERS WERE IN TRINIDAD AT THAT TIME? We had three tables full...close to 30, but not all in nursing ... Jeanne and myself... whenever anyone came, they didn’t stay very long so it changed often... at times we were three nurses, an Administrator and Superior at the same time. The doctors in Trinidad practiced good medicine, very much up to date. I was there 7 years, and I liked it. I became good friends with Sister Jeanne, she worked all the time. Her Dad came to see her, but she never had time to visit with him. She was in emergency, OR, ER and every other place. So I visited with him. So after she left, her Dad still came back to visit me. Her Dad sort of adopted me. INTERVIEWER: WERE YOU IN CHINA DURING THE JAPANESE OCCUPATION? I was there for 8 years. The Japanese killed my mother. They had their own government in the South. My uncle became the mayor of that town. In China the mayor is a very big shot. He even had a bodyguard. Many of the Japanese officials came to see him. Then we saw them too. One of the Japanese soldiers had received a package from his mother with toys and other things and he would bring it to our house to give to the kids...that was OK, but when they got drunk, we all had to hide we didn’t know what they would do. Other than that they were good. In school part of the schedule was that we had to learn Japanese two hours a week. We learned a few words, like “good morning” and “good afternoon”... in between time, we were taught English. Because we were not Catholic at time, we were left alone. My grandmother became a Catholic later. My uncle did not because he did not like to kneel. In China there was only a bench to kneel on and that was hard to do. But every feastday like Christmas and Easter, my uncle would always go to church with us there was much pageantry and he liked that. He often had a big banquet delivered to the convent for the Sisters. He thought that the Catholic church saved his life otherwise he would have been shot. �7 They killed my mother, but even then I wasn’t angry. We were the enemy, and they had to do what they had to do. Every time the airplanes come, they bombed us and even then I didn’t feel angry. When my mother died I was 9. The family had to run away. See where we lived it was in the country and there were no telephones and we got the news later than others. The newspapers said that the Japanese were going to be there in like a week or so. So we had made provisions, we were going to go to a relative’s house in the mountains because where we lived it was wide open, so we were going to go. In China, a new mother was not supposed to step out of the house for a full month. So, my aunt stayed home with the baby so they couldn’t go to the mountains. My mother and I were running, but there was shooting on both sides. We were the last ones to leave. My mother got tired and she said, your aunt is still home, let’s go back home. So we went home and the Japanese came but they didn’t stay, they kept on marching on a very narrow road. But the last group stayed in the village. They didn’t stay inside a house, they were afraid that the Chinese soldiers come and get them, they stayed outside. But while it was still daylight, they came into the house and they asked my mother for money or something since she didn’t have any they hit my mother and she fell. My aunts kept telling my mother to stay down, to pretend she was dead. But she did not she put me into the bed with my sister-in-law and the baby, all three of us hid in the bed. So, they finally killed her. My mother and I were very close. Since I was her only child, I had never been away from her for even one night, I stayed with her all the time. Later when it got dark and the Japanese went outside, my aunt gave me a choice, either I would stay with her or I would go with my father. I chose to stay with her because my mother and my aunt were good friends, so I stayed with her, she took care of me all the time. A little history: when my grandfather was a young man he owned a cigarette company. (at this point she is explaining a diagram) The Bishop lived here. The Bishop had money to build a church in the city, our city. So, my grandfather needed spices for his cigarette stuff from this city, but the Bishop needed money to send to a place to build a church ( I could not understand her explanation since I could not see the diagram... I think she was explaining the relationship between the Bishop and her grandfather) And so when they came to inspect the church, they always made a call on my grandfather. The neighbors thought that my grandfather was Catholic because the hierarchy came to visit but in reality, they came to visit with him because they had had business together at one time. �8 WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU CAME OVER WITH THE OTHER SISTERS DID YOU ALL BAND TOGETHER? DID THE DIFFERENT DIALECTS MAKE A DIFFERENCE? No, it didn’t. Some of them spoke Mandarin but there is not that much difference. Sister Columba and another Sister they were from Hunan, that’s not too far . Now my dialect is all mixed up. We understood each other. We didn’t stay together much. Some tried to stay with the American Sisters. Some of the Sisters that we worked with in Mother Margaret Hall were very nice, but some were not. Sister Michael Ann was in charge of Mother Margaret Hall and she was a nurse. She once commented by saying that she didn’t know how the Chinese Sisters put up with her. We had one Sister who had an asthma attack real bad , we had to give her a shot of adrenalin. Sister Michael Ann told Columba to give her a shot. But at that time we had not had much nurses training and Columba did not know. But I had worked there before, so I went to take care of her and that protected Columba. WOULD YOU DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN? I don’t mind. Yes I would. Most people have been very, very nice to us. In Nursing School, the worst teacher we ever had was a Sister of Charity. The best instructor I ever had was a Protestant, a Baptist, she helped me a lot. There were a lot of nice people. NO, I would not mind doing it all over again. I’m glad I did it when I did it, but I don’t think I want to start over. Nobody ever pitied us...saying that we would be homesick and things. Some times I think that they didn’t think we had any feelings. When I went back in 1985, I asked my aunt what did she think would have happened if I hadn’t left. She said I would be like the rest of them, miserable. �9 DO YOU THINK THAT NATIONALIST CHINA AND MAINLAND CHINA WOULD EVER UNITE? I wish they would. Most of the people have people in both parts it was like a civil war. The Communist would like to have one people. DOES TAIWAN NOW HAVE MOSTOF THE MONEY? I think so, yes. Those people are working hard to get where they are. They are more educated and so forth. DO YOU HAVE ANY RELATIVES IN THE STATES NOW? No. I had my nephew who was here 6 years but he had to go back because he could not get a green card, so he got layed off . But he liked it here. They had one baby born here. He is an American citizen, his father got him a dual citizenship. They lived in Studio City in California when they were here. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// THE REST OF THE TAPE WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE OF THE NOISE IN THE RESTAURANT... BUT THE DISCUSSION WAS MOSTLY A FRIENDLY CHAT ABOUT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. NOTE: towards the end of the tape, Lucia reiterated some information: - she was baptized in China she was confirmed in Santa Fe she was 13 years in all in the West she was 13 years in Michigan she liked every mission � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mao, Sister Lucia, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Saul, Sister Pat, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 Hour 1 Minute 40 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Trinidad (Colo.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Lucia Mao, SC Interviewed by Sister Pat Saul, SC Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Nursing--United States--History; World War, 1939-1945 -- China Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Lucia Mao by Sister Pat Saul. No date was noted in the transcript and this recording seems to be more of an informal conversation taken while at a restaurant or public setting. Sister Lucia shares the challenges she and her family faced in China during the Japanese occupation in World War II. She also shares about her nursing education and ministry in the United States. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mao, Sister Lucia, SC; Saul, Sister Pat, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Lucia Mao, SC Interviewed by Sister Pat Saul, SC Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1928-1985 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series China Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/a52f17dd017230dd9a3162f17a1235c0.jpg 391373f895bd5ba3b3c7ca81002fc48b https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/4d0c38e80141ee88cd716ba53b489938.mp3 cc5d534a878695b19d8ad51f7f9dc2f6 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/86fc6e2bc1be20ebb94df24a22c84e93.pdf ec131ac65db36d0dd1c37e7a42d82e31 PDF Text Text Interviewer: Sister Francis Maria Cassidy, SC Interviewee: Sister Margaret Anna Fitzsimmons, SC Date: July 1, 1983 Editor: Sister Noreen Neary, SC Date edited: November 20, 2020 Sr. Francis Maria: Now you were one of our missionaries who went to Puerto Rico. And maybe you’d tell us a little something about how you came to go to Puerto Rico, and how long you were there, and any memories you have of your days there. Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, you know we had become interested in the foreign missions, more or less, Sister. And one group had already gone to Guayama, Puerto Rico. It seemed attractive. And I volunteered. And I went with [Sister Therese Alma Carro] and Sister whom we called Sister Inez, [Sister Anita Agnes Whalen]. And we came back in [1946], Sister... We're skipping a few... Everybody were all very happy and very active there. We had the eight grades, of course. I think there were maybe four missions in the country that the sisters... Sr. Francis Maria: Were you one of those sisters who went out to teach? Sr. Margaret Anna: Sister, the others were more versed in Spanish. And at first I did not go until later when I could help, not so much with the language as with other little things. Sr. Francis Maria: Well, when you went there, Sister, did you go down there to teach in the school? And did you do that? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, yes. I think that was the idea, the hope of everybody who went, Sister. We had been teaching here and we knew the school there was well-established. Really, it was not too unlike our parochial schools here and we could have every confidence. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember the grades that you taught there, Sister? Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, Sister. I had the eighth grade, Sister. It was more or less departmental to more than it is or was at home here. Teachers who, of course, taught Spanish. [Sister Maria Rosa Delgado] was one of our special teachers. �Sr. Francis Maria: Who are some of the sisters who were there with your time, do you remember any of these sisters? Sr. Margaret Anna: Sister Therese Alma went down. Sister Inez, whom she was called, and [Sister Miriam Gertrude Geis], of course, were there. And [Sister Irene Clare Gallagher], who is now and since that time. We came up in ‘46 and she went to the Virgin Islands and is still there. [Sister Teresa Agnes Gilrane] was there and Sister Gertrude something, who died a few years after coming home. She's not living now. Yes, I meant to ask Sister Miriam about that name because it has been familiar to me until yesterday or today. Sr. Francis Maria: We all forget names. Sr. Margaret Anna: We always forget our own. Sr. Francis Maria: Was the convent still on the upper floor of the school? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, yes. Sr. Francis Maria: ...the school? Sr. Margaret Anna: It was there, Sister. I think it was the third floor. We didn't mind climbing in those days. And on the convent, too, was a roof that we enjoyed. We were there always unless in the chapel or school. Sr. Francis Maria: Did you recreate on the roof? Sr. Margaret Anna: We did, Sister, yes, and it was delightful. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember any particular recreations, what you did at recreation? Sr. Margaret Anna: �Well, I think we did little singing, Sister. It wasn't difficult. The time flew. Recreation, Sister. But not too long before we came up, someone gave us a turkey live and of course we were anxious to taste it. And some little boy whom we had a lot of contact with, it seemed... Oh, he said... I guess we were talking about it. And he said, well, he could. So we had a circus on that roof. We had to resort to somebody a little bit stronger than this little lad. He was, what, I think about 12 years old. Sr. Francis Maria: To kill the turkey and prepare it for you. Now, you came up, then, in 1946. Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes. Sr. Francis Maria: And I guess for the sisters who were stationed there or missioned there it was a sad occasion... Sr. Margaret Anna: It was, yes. Sr. Francis Maria: ...to leave the mission. To leave. Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, Sister, the priests – the Redemptorists – were anxious. They felt they were in need of high school teaching. And we really didn't realize how anxious they were about it or… However, [Mother Mary Benita Kane] was in office at that time, felt and she knew that we couldn't one year after another, in addition of two staff, a high school sister. And that was the reason thatSr. Francis Maria: And then another order came in to replace you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, some from the west, Sister. The middle west. I think they are not there at all now. The school doesn't... I believe it doesn't exist. We heard that rather recently. Sr. Francis Maria: Now what about the packing up and the going and the trip home again? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, we were anxious about how we were going to get home because we couldn't travel just with our handbag home, you know, but we did come up by boat, Sister, and we enjoyed it, and we were so glad to see the fresh fruit when we got here. Although we did have plenty of bananas �down there as you know, and oranges. I think early in August that we came and we really enjoyed the trip once we got on the boat. Sr. Francis Maria: What were the last days like in Puerto Rico? Busy, I suppose? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, yes, of course we were busy, Sister, and everybody not knowing where she was going the next month or so. Sr. Francis Maria: Into the Motherhouse, did you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, we did, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Someone meet you at the boat? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, I don't think anyone from here met us, Sister. There were... That is... I don't think anyone from the Motherhouse met us, but we were met with a couple of friends. Everybody had a couple of friends or relatives who... I don't know how he managed to get the date. I think the priest, I forget who he was now. I think he took care of those things. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. In other words, you didn't have the responsibility... Sr. Margaret Anna: No, we didn't. Sr. Francis Maria: ...of arranging your transportation. Sr. Margaret Anna: No. Sr. Francis Maria: But did you come to Convent when you returned before goSr. Margaret Anna: Yes, we did come to Convent, Sister. And... �Sr. Francis Maria: You said it was August and school, of course, wouldn't be starting ’til September? So did you have a little rest? Do you remember anything about that period? Sr. Margaret Anna: Indeed, Sister, and I think that around that time up in Bergen County was opening for a residence. Sr. Francis Maria: Was it Mount Saint Andrew’s? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, yeah. My mistake. Thank you, Sister. Yeah, that was rather new, I think, then using it in that... Sr. Francis Maria: In that capacity now. Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes. And so I remember being there for several weeks during the summer. Sr. Francis Maria: Just to get your sites fixed. Sr. Margaret Anna: That’s right and keep from being too idle. Sr. Francis Maria: Yeah. Did the children know that you were going? Sr. Margaret Anna: I think they did. Oh, yes, they did, Sister, because the parents wouldn't be for the benefit of those who succeeded us getting the children mentally adjusted. Sr. Francis Maria: Make the transition easy. Sr. Margaret Anna: That's right. Yes. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember whether the children showed sorrow or regret? How did they behave? Like our own children would with sisters leaving whom they loved? �Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, I suppose they did, Sister, but I think that didn't impress us as much as other things. Sr. Francis Maria: What impressed you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, we were sorry that the mission could not continue. I think at that time the mission in Santurce had been opened several years before, so that was still... And that was down near San Juan where our sisters were. Sr. Francis Maria: So was Guayama more remote? Sr. Margaret Anna: Please, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Was Guayama more remote? Sr. Margaret Anna: Down at the southern coast, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: So if a choice had to be made of closing one, it would have been Guayama, rather than Santurce? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, well. Yes, it was, Sister. And there was the need there as the priest thought of high school teaching. Sr. Francis Maria: Did you visit the sisters down at that other mission very often? Or did they come to visit you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, yes. We didn't visit too often, Sister. Every now and then we would have to go down around San Juan to do a little shopping, and that made it helpful to get to visit them. Before we did come up, we all went over to St. Thomas and spent a delightful week. Sr. Francis Maria: In the Virgin Islands. Sr. Margaret Anna: �That's right, Sister. We used to enjoy when the sisters went down on a mission to the Virgin Islands. They usually stopped for some days, maybe a week, with us. And that was always a big treat. Sr. Francis Maria: Sure it was a big treat for them, too. What kind of contact during the years you were there did you have with the sisters up here in New Jersey? Was there correspondence back and forth? Sr. Margaret Anna: I guess I think it was personal, Sister. Whether you... Not in any formal or organized way. And I think now and then we heard from the Motherhouse. I guess I think we did write more or less regularly. Sr. Francis Maria: Who was the Sister Servant during those days? Sr. Margaret Anna: You mean up here, Sister? Sr. Francis Maria: No. I mean in Puerto Rico and in the last days, in the closing days. Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, Sister, when I went there, I succeeded [Sister Mary Anita Lane] until I left in '46. Sr. Francis Maria: So the responsibility, in a sense of closing the mission, was on your shoulders. I know that you had the help of the other sisters. How did you go about it? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, I don't think, Sister, there was any really set plan. Everybody was thoughtful and they understood conditions. Everybody did. And there was no problem at all, Sister, getting things done that had to be taken care of. Sr. Francis Maria: So you don't remember hectic days or any particular difficulties? Sr. Margaret Anna: I think not, Sister. No. Sr. Francis Maria: Well, Sister, I think that the way you've explained your last days there in Puerto Rico is probably the way that you've gone ahead with your whole life. No, no difficulties. �Sr. Margaret Anna: Right, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Nothing was the problem. Everything took care of itself in the hands of God. And after you came from Puerto Rico, Sister, what other work then were you assigned to? Sr. Margaret Anna: That year, Sister, I went to the Carmelites. Sr. Francis Maria: Englewood? Englewood? St. Cecilia's? Sr. Margaret Anna: Next to it. Sr. Francis Maria: No? Next to that in Teaneck? Sr. Margaret Anna: Mount. Carmel [School in Tenafly, New Jersey] Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, Mount Carmel in Ridgewood? No? Well, try again. Never mind, you went to a mission in Bergen County. Did you go as a teacher or as a principal or as a… Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, in those days, Sister, at least most of us did teaching, as well as trying to act as principal. Sr. Francis Maria: Trying to act as principal. I'm sure you did a beautiful job. Well, maybe a little later on... You're shaking your head no. Of course you did. You've done a very beautiful job. Well, Sister Margaret, you've been then at Saint Anne Villa since you left Marillac House. Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, that's right, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: And would you go back in your memory a little bit to the day you entered and just tell us what year that was? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, my land, Sister. The year is easy – 1919. �Sr. Francis Maria: That's all we'll ask you, Sister. But you've traveled along and I know a happy road since then. Sr. Margaret Anna: Thank God. Yes, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. Well, Sister, you've been very good with your memories. I am going to now release you from those memories to move into the present because in about two minutes your lunch will be served. And I know that you'd like to get to the dining room and have your lunch. And I thank you very much. And these are very precious memories that you've... Sr. Margaret Anna: Nice speaking with you, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: ...left with us. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Margaret Ann Fitzsimmons, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C.; Colegio de San Antonio; Guayama, Puerto Rico; Mount Carmel School, Ridgewood, NJ Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's years as teacher and superior at the Colegio de San Antonio in Guayama, Puerto Rico Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 1, 1983 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Margaret Anna Fitzsimmons describes her years as teacher and superior at the Colegio de San Antonio in Guayama, Puerto Rico Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant July 1, 1983 Education Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/19aae66e0adfe688080b1e58f215ed5c.jpg 9b672552a3c5d30058583c0fc6fcd0dc https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c3547a10359d990c7c243c9b346826ee.MP3 8b0ed527267d750672a4d06cdc5d1e95 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/1cb7244876df1db31999c2f6d19db6cf.pdf 6bc9ff6a84a8084b48b0043f15ba2ab4 PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Marie Russo, SC Sister Marie Devota Gately, SC January 28, 1996 Sister Noreen Neary, SC November 19, 2020 Sr. Marie: It’s 3:15 p.m., Saint Anne Villa in Sister's room 204, regarding Sr. Marie Devota while she was living in the Caritas community, a house of retirement for the sisters in [Jersey City, New Jersey]. Sr. Marie: You lived at Caritas in Jersey City from 1982 to 1995. Sr. Devota, would you like tell us about some of the volunteer work that you did during this time? Sr. Devota: Well, during my time there, I was involved quite a bit of volunteer work My first thought when I went there in 1982 was to give something that I could be of help to other people. So I accompanied one of the sisters from Caritas over to the Visiting Homemakers Service because she was [seeking] help for her brother. And while I was there it occurred to me that possibly they would need some volunteer work done and they were delighted. So that was the beginning of my work with the Visiting Homemakers Service. I used to go there every week for a few hours. And I would call people who previously had homemakers, just to find out how they were doing, if they needed some more help and just in what way could homemaker service be of more assistance to them. It was really very interesting work and very gratifying work, too. After I was there for a few months and enjoying the work very much, I received a call from the executive's office and asking me if I would serve on a new council that they were forming, a services advisory council of Hudson County. And I was asked if I would serve on this advisory council. I was amused at first. I remember I was telling [Sister Jo Ann Bromley] about it. She was our administrator at Caritas and we both had a good laugh about it, not thinking anything would come of it. I finally was contacted and found out that it was the executive director of homemaker services who had submitted my name to this council. Well, that was the beginning of many things. It was really very interesting work. There were about 20 on this advisory council. And actually our chief work was trying to determine who were the most eligible clients for the grants that were available. First they began on a federal basis. Then they went down from the federal to state, then to county. And we [unintelligible] who were the people in the county who are the most deserving of the, but it really went into millions to receive these grants. Our job was to discuss what was the use of the grant. Why is it this particular organization applied for the grant in the first place, what use they had for the money, and what use did it seem that they were going to make of the money? And we just got that very interesting discussion about all of these groups. And I was oftentimes felt that I could give a very unbiased opinion as to whether I felt which organization would be more deserving and make more use of the grants. Unfortunately, there were politics that entered into all these things, too. And they all felt that I was not inclined to be as suggesting any information from a political point of view. So I did the �best I could to help those that I really felt, you did ask me as a Sister of Charity, how I felt that I could be of use. And I really felt as a Sister of Charity, they appreciated my contributions and my suggestions and my advice. But they're all just very wonderful people in this group and the advisory council. They did excellent work and were very concerned about the people whom they were serving. Sr. Marie: Sr. Devota, weren't you also involved in an advisory council for transportation for the elderly and handicapped from 1984 to 1994? Sr. Devota: Yes. You see one of my problems when I got to Jersey City was to find out how I could get transportation when I needed it. I had to get to the Eye Institute in Newark, for instance, and had various places that I had to go to and transportation was a little bit of a problem. We only had the one car. And so I began calling the county offices to find out if they didn't provide any kind of transportation to take care of handicapped people. Before I knew it, I had a call from the county executives in the Office of the Handicapped, asking me if I would be willing to serve on a citizens’ committee who would determine just in what way they could serve the elderly and the handicapped with regard to transportation. That, too, became interesting. We became involved in deciding on what kind of vans they needed to provide for all the people. And there were many things entering into that. What the qualifications had to be for the drivers even. And it was really, it turned out to be something very interesting. I always used to feel that while they were talking about vans for transportation, sometimes I felt that actually they didn't need vans. Sometimes just an individual or two individuals needed transportation to get to their college classes. And I couldn't see the need of having a van transporting one or two people. I was always arguing that it would be certainly more economical and more comfortable for the people using, needing the transportation to sit in just an ordinary car. Well, at first my request really wasn't heeded very much. But after a while, they began to see that this was more economical and it would certainly contribute to the comfort of the individuals who needed the transportation. And we had to go and vans would be purchased. We had to go and inspect the vans and see how many wheelchairs could fit in. Oh, there was so much involved in this, but it was interesting, it was good. Sr. Marie: What about there was another committee, the Senior Community Independent Living Services. You called it SCILS which you started working on in 1987 until 1994. How did you get involved in this and how was this sort of ministry? Sr. Devota: Well you see, after I had been going to the homemakers volunteer service, doing my volunteer work at the Visiting Homemakers Service, I began to feel that it was getting a little bit difficult for me to walk over to the office where I did my work. And they were concerned too about my crossing the streets. So they were just about to begin the SCILS program, the Senior Community Independent Living Services. And at that time I was asked that, instead of coming over to the office to do the work, would I please just serve on this committee where we could make �decisions as to how people could live independently and not have to come out to work. And just what way could we be of help in suggesting means to give aid to the elderly people? I really found this group to be particularly interesting. We became involved not so much with the elderly people but we became very involved with the volunteers. Those who would go and assist the elderly. The people would go in and would help them with their shopping and people who would transit, provide transportation for them. Sometimes they would just go to visit them. And a couple of times a year, or two or three times a year in fact, we would have group dinners together with these volunteer people, who would explain to us what they were doing and how much they enjoyed doing volunteer work for others. It's amazing how many people are really interested in giving assistance to othesr and the pleasure they get out of it. I think if everybody were aware of the pleasure you can get out of giving to others, I think more people would be wanting to volunteer their services. Sr. Marie: From 1984 to 1991, Sister Devota, you were involved in a committee an archdiocesan committee, the foster grandparents program. Sr. Devota: Yes. Sr. Marie: Could you tell something about that? Sr. Devota: That again was an advisory council. I never knew I could ever be on so many advisory councils at one time. But that again was an advisory council and the Director of the Catholic Community Services in Jersey City asked me if I would serve on that. We would meet once a month, quite regularly. And we would just see in what way could people who would like to act as foster grandparents really help these children. In fact, when I was first invited to be on the advisory council I said, "Oh, no.” I thought I was expected to work with the little children myself and in no way did I feel prepared to do this at my age. However, that wasn't it, we were just on the advisory council for it. And the grandparents, we used to have a luncheon once or twice a year when they would tell us their experiences and the joy they received from being foster grandparents and acting as foster grandparents for these little children. The elderly people themselves got so much happiness out of it because they said, "Oh, it was so good to see the little children." They'd come in and they just run up to them, throw their arms around them. And the elderly people got more out of it than you could ever even imagine. So again I say, giving yourself to others is really very, very rewarding. You get more reward, I think we got more reward out of the things we do for other people than they actually get out of it, too. Sr. Marie: Sister Devota, would you tell us a little bit more about another ministry that you engaged in, volunteer work when you were in Caritas? �Sr. Devota: Well, one of the things I did when I began, when I first went to Caritas, was to visit the jail, the Hudson County jail. It wasn't too far away from us, it was about, I would say about the equivalent of about three blocks away from us. And I used to go there, spend most of every Friday morning. I would visit the women in the jail. It was mostly a male institution, but the women were very much in the minority. Actually, when I began my work there, we only had about 40 or 50 women. But by the time I finished and the jail moved about ten years later, it was the population of the women was up to a hundred. And it was interesting going there. I think what those women needed more than anything else was someone to listen to them. So I always gave them a willing ear and occasionally they would ask me for advice on what to do. And they really needed it. We used to read. I did provide copies of the New Testament for them and any time I had little scriptural quotations or leaflets, I always gave them rosary beads. They were just so happy to get any of these things. And each time I would go in, they would show me that they had them. I had to teach them actually how to say the Hail Mary and the Our Father. Some of them, of course, didn't even know that. They weren't all Catholics, but even whether they were Catholic or not, very often they came to me. The conditions in the jail were really sad. It used to bother me very much. Sr. Marie: Yeah? Sr. Devota: Yes, because I mean, they had become so overcrowded and actually there was one big room and they slept in bunk beds. They were just one above the other. And there were about seven little cells. There would be about 14 women in one of these big rooms. And they'd have to jump down from the top bunk and that's the way they slept. And they'd see me they would really, it was amazing how so many of them would come over to talk to me. And some of them, you'd find out that they had several children, all by different husbands. And I used to try to talk sense to them, giving their lives to these men, just letting them, helping them satisfy their own sexual desires. And I said, "Who is to pay for?" I said, "Do they help you after the child is born?" Of course not. And I would question them sometimes, I'd find out someone had five and six children, each one by a different father. This was really sad. And I tried to help them to look into the future and see the damage they were doing to themselves and to the children. And they liked me for it, believe it or not. Sr. Marie: They didn't mind? Sr. Devota: No. And I did teach them the Hail Mary and the Our Father, I think I said that before. And helped them to know what the Rosary was all about because there was quite a large Muslim population of women in the jail. And they used to encourage the women to go to them whenever a Muslim leader would go to them. And apparently they had appealing things to say, because a couple of the women went over to the Muslims and thought it was really great. But I don't feel �that the women got enough spiritual help there or enough of any kind of help, to tell you the truth. The men used to have women coming in, tutoring them and helping them prepare for their GEDs. No one came to tutor the women. I don't know why. And the men used to have Masses occasionally, but the women weren't invited because they said the reason why the women weren't invited, because it would be too much of a distraction for the men, having women at the Mass with them. So the chaplain felt that it was better not to have them. But occasionally a priest would come and talk with them too. And another thing that we did sometimes, there was a long time ago and they used to have the privilege of crocheting and knitting. However, apparently it was abused because that was taken away from them. But sometimes when a girl would be expecting a baby, she'd say to me how much she wished she could make a little baby blanket – that she knew how to crochet or knit – or make little booties or a little sweater for the baby. So I would have to go to one of the authorities in the jail and get permission to get yarn for her and get all the knitting needles or the crochet hooks or whatever she would need and get permission for her to do some crocheting. This had to be done under a certain amount of supervision, but they were really so grateful for this opportunity they would have to actually do some crocheting or knitting for the baby that was coming. I could understand why it was a dangerous thing because anything with a point on is dangerous to put in the hands of one of the inmates. But we used to read scripture too. We provided, I got them through the jail, copies of the New Testament. And sometimes we'd read a few passages out of it. A passage I would think would appeal to them and we'd discuss it. But I found it very satisfying. Sr. Marie: I was just thinking of Saint Vincent de Paul with the galley slaves, the way he worked with them. It reminds me of what something that he would do. Sr. Devota: Yes. It's really very interesting. I would have stayed there. Finally, I think it was in 1981 the jail moved. Well, they had been really working on it and trying to improve conditions there, but then they moved to, I think it was someplace in South Kearny. Yeah, but it's not there. I think there's just an empty lot there now. And they were going to make it parking lot out of it or something. Sr. Marie: I didn't even notice that. Sr. Devota: But I had wanted very often to get someone to drive me to the jail after they moved. But somehow or other that never materialized. But I think the conditions there were better than what they had left. I didn't go away from the jail, the jail went away from me. At the end of it, they really liked, when I would come over, I didn't go inside the cell, but they would come. A group of them would come over to the gate to me. And of course there were different parts that I would go into it, go into different rooms. �I'd be able to talk right with them there in the individual rooms. But this one room had all those bunk beds in it. Other places had the bunk beds, too, but they weren't fenced in, the way some of them, at the gate. Sr. Marie: And were you by yourself when you went into those other rooms? Sr. Devota: Oh yes, but the guard didn't like me to go right inside the cell, unless there was somebody present there. They kind of fear of that. But I never had any problems with the women. They were always very nice. The Lord always takes care of us. Sr. Marie: Yeah, it was like you had your guardian angel protecting you or something. Sr. Devota: I got friendly with all the authorities in the jail, too. Sr. Marie: Did you really? Sr. Devota: Yes. Sr. Marie: You were influencing systems there too. Besides your work in the councils, you were working for the good of the women there by knowing the officials themselves. Sr. Devota: Oh, yes. Well, of course I had been into counseling before I retired. In fact, I was in counseling quite a few years. But then I made use of the counseling again in the parish, in [Saint Joseph School in Jersey City]. Sr. Marie: Oh, would you tell us about that, what did you do in the school? Sr. Devota: What I did, the principal, Sister Joan McKee, would give me a list of names of some of the students, all in different grades. And I would go over to the school once a week and meet these children on an individual basis. And we would just discuss whatever their problems were or whatever they needed. And some actually range from kindergarten up to the eighth grade. �So, that was a good experience. But there was such a different level, the whole range. I had just maybe a couple from, not from every grade of course, but I had quite a few who came to me at about a half hour intervals or whatever. Sr. Marie: Sr. Devota, you were also involved in the parish itself, besides being involved in the school. Would you tell us about the work that you did in the parish? Sr. Devota: Well, before I went to Caritas community, I had been a Eucharistic minister already, had been through that training and so forth. So when I went to Saint Joseph's parish, this parish in which Caritas community is located, I was Eucharistic minister the whole time that I was there. And that was really a privilege. Then once a week on Monday nights a group of the women used to get together. In fact, they used to come over to the convent and we would have the 15 decades of the Rosary every Monday night. And a couple of the sisters and I always participated in that and that was rewarding. And, too, they had the annual carnival that we had in the fall of every year. And sometimes I would go out during the carnival and help sell chances or do something like that, just to try and make myself useful. Sr. Marie: If I remember correctly, you were involved, quite involved in the life of the parish in any activity they had. Sr. Devota: Well, I always liked it. I felt I liked to be part of the parish. But sometimes my other activities, for instance, the Human Services Advisory Council, we used to have meetings beside our evening meetings. We used to have meetings on Monday, it used to be mostly committee meetings on Monday afternoon. I had joined the senior citizens in the parish, but this interfered with some of the other meetings I had in the Human Services Advisory Council. So I really couldn't continue that for too long, although I went on some of the activities that they had. One thing that they had, and this was a parish activity. I just thought of it. The PATH [Port Authority Trans-Hudson transit system], the trains there that run at Journal Square Port Authority, they wanted to build something right there at the square in the PATH terminal, which ran into our parish. There were people living over there and the railroad, when the trains went right underneath. There was this area of the parish, it was called The Island. And whatever the Port Authority wanted to build, I don't really know exactly what it was, but I knew it was going to be very, very noisy. And people objected very much to it because they just felt that the noise involved, they weren't going to stay in the parish and they did not want to move. So they organized a trip to Trenton and asked for a group of us to go to Trenton to fight this. And, of course, I was one of the ones who went to Trenton. And as a result, the Port Authority gave up the idea of building whatever they wanted to build that was going to be so noisy and have such a negative influence on the people in the parish. I was glad of that. And I made some nice acquaintances the day we went there. Sr. Marie: �So, it sounds as if you not only were involved on councils and in the parish, you were involved in really helping to change the life of the whole community and of a lot of people in Hudson County. Sr. Devota: I don't know how much I changed their lives, but… Sr. Marie: Well… Sr. Devota: I was involved in some way in a few things. Sr. Marie: And it sounds as if you went out to the poor, as we do as Sisters of Charity. So, thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for your time. Sr. Devota: You're very welcome and… Sr. Marie: And for giving us the example. Sr. Devota: Very happy to be able to share it because I feel that these are privileges that the Lord gave me, that I didn't have to sit idle and just twiddle my thumbs after I had retired. Sr. Marie: After your retirement, right. Sr. Devota: But I'm very grateful for all I was able to do. And it didn't seem like a lot at the time, but now as I look back, I'm glad I was able to do what I did. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gately, Sister Marie Devota, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:22:29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Marie Devota Gately, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Gately, Sister Marie Devota, S.C.; Caritas Community; Jersey City, NJ; St. Joseph Parish and School, Jersey City, NJ Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's varied volunteer activities during her retirement in Caritas Community in Jersey City, NJ Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gately, Sister Marie Devota, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 28, 1996 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Marie Devota describes her varied volunteer activities during her retirement in Caritas Community in Jersey City, NJ Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant January 28, 1996 Education Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/ab3bfa6a795cf57b2f0a8943b8de3f09.jpg 78541ef1ff902668b4eff699fca44331 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/54afeeeb5cd4523e834d6d7cff11c649.pdf 01159b120c19b5777008a46ecb68cb32 PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Mary Ellen Gleason, SC Sister Mary Ellen Verdon, SC January 12, 1988 Sister Noreen Neary, SC October 23, 2020 Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: In the early 1960s, as a response to Pope John XXIII’s appeal for missionaries to the Third World countries, you volunteered to serve in our first mission in Bolivia. Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: That's right. Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: There were three other sisters: Sister Mary Frederick [Holbrow], Sister Anne James [Connolly] and Sister Grace Lavina [Reilly], who comprised the first group. Let's begin with you. How did you prepare yourself, educationally, to meet the needs of the people you were called to serve? Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: Well, I speak for my own self, but this really does apply to all of us. We really didn't know where Bolivia was. First we had to find a map and find where it was. Then it was a matter of finding out about what Bolivia was. What it meant. And I went to the library. That was the easiest way to get some idea of who was in Bolivia…what was in Bolivia. What was it all about? The next piece was that I did not speak Spanish. And I had a background in French and Latin, but I had no Spanish. However, I wasn't too sure of how to go about this and then I find out that none of us spoke Spanish and therefore we were told that arrangements were made for us to go to a language school in Lima, Peru. So, what we did, we got some tapes. We had some books, we even played Scrabble and this was Sister Mary Frederick, Lord have mercy on her, this was her great idea. We would play Scrabble in Spanish. It was torture for most of us. But, in fact, we played Scrabble every afternoon on the boat going down to Bolivia. And somewhere along the line, I found an egg timer. And Sister Mary Frederick said we had to play for ten minutes. So I used to turn the egg timer. But then we finally got to Peru only to find out that the language school was only for men. We couldn't go. This was 1963. And when we went on to Bolivia, we had…arrangements had been made for us to live with Spanish-speaking sisters while the house we were going to live in, the convent, was being fixed...being built. And when we got to Coroico, the sisters that we were to live with were petrified of us, didn't know what to make of us. We were gringos and they were very a pretty strict community. And it almost took a Papal Mandate that they eat with us, they recreate with us, they do everything with us. And one of them became our teacher. The Franciscans supplied the books and then we had class. And that went on for a couple of 1 �months. And little by little, we learned the language and I carried a dictionary, myself, for almost two years. It became a joke about me and my little dictionary. But it was the only way to learn the language. You had to be willing to make mistakes and the people laughed, then that was all right. But I would say, after two years, I felt very fluent and it didn't matter. I was able to...I was comfortable in English or in Spanish. But the preparation, to answer your beginning question, really was nothing. It was...nobody knew what to do. But we survived. Does that answer your question? Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: Almost. You had a background in nursing...and you had spent several years at the Hospital of St. Raphael [in New Haven, Connecticut] before you went to Bolivia. Now, was it possible for you to take time while you were at St. Raphael's to learn special techniques that perhaps only a doctor would do so that you could better serve the people in Bolivia? Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: You're very right. Sister Louise Anthony [Geronemo], Lord have mercy on her, was very, very supportive of my going to Bolivia. Arrangements were made for me to work in the emergency room. And I worked there for a couple of months. Dr. Mark Russell was the senior resident and he was just so enamored with my going to Bolivia. He taught me so many things. He taught me how to sew people. He taught me how to do in-depth examinations. He taught me many, many things which I don't even want to talk about on public taping, but it was three wonderful months. Wonderful months. And when I finished there, before I went to Bolivia, he gave me a machete. It was about two and a half feet long when he gave it to me. And when I left Bolivia, it was about six inches long. It got an awful lot of use in those years. Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: Am I right in thinking that you even had some experience in learning procedures in dentistry, like how to extract teeth? Or is that something you taught yourself? Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: No, no, no…what happened was that when we went to Bolivia, there was a dentist from [Saint Joseph’s Hospital in Paterson, New Jersey]. He volunteered to come down for two weeks. He came in our first year there and he brought all his own equipment. And, at that time, I was very young and I…and the world was mine and I could do everything, so he spent a great deal of time and…he worked all day long. He taught me how to pull teeth and in the evening, he'd come down and he'd have classes and he'd…which tooth got which instrument and all this stuff and he left his complete set of instruments…taught me how to give the anesthesia…taught me all these other things…and in the two weeks that he was there, he pulled over 700 teeth. And in the time that I was there, I pulled a couple of thousand teeth. 2 �Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: What about the delivering of babies. Did you ever do that in Bolivia? Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: Yes, I did deliver babies, but not for long because Sister Malwina Anne [Sister Evelyn Lebiedz] came and she's a midwife. And that's her specialty and she did wonderful things with setting up classes and doing that kind of stuff. Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: What about the other three sisters? Do you know if they did anything in particular to get ready to go to Bolivia other than maybe trying to do something about learning Spanish? Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: Well, we all were in the same boat where Spanish was concerned. Sister Mary Frederick may have had a couple of more words than the rest of us, but none of us spoke Spanish. I would think Mary Frederick and Anne James most likely gathered catechetical things to use. Sister Grace, I know, made some arrangements with Saint Joseph's [Hospital] to supply us with stuff…because that's where she was missioned. But beyond that, no. Not that I know of. It was getting our things ready. It was trying to learn about the country. And there really wasn't that much time. Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: About how long after you were accepted to go to Bolivia did you actually leave? Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: I would say it could be no more than maybe four months. Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: So that was really a very short time... Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: Before we conclude our conversation today, is there anything else you would like to say about your eleven years’ experience in Bolivia? Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: Well, as you well know, I can go on for hours and hours and hours, but in an attempt to keep it to the theme of why we're here today, the educational opportunities of the Sisters to prepare them for their work, I don't think it's fair to present the Bolivian experience relative to education without introducing later changes. Because, as was said in the beginning, I went there in 1963, when women couldn't even go to the language school. By 1965, two years later, that was all changed. Maryknoll had a language school in Cochabamba [Bolivia]. There was language school with Monsignor lllich in Cuernavaca [Mexico], and this was not just language, this was society. This was teachings about the society, both spiritually, physically, economically, anyway you want to talk about it. And these all happened starting about 1965 where men and women went to language school. But also other changes happened then. From a sense of helping us be able to help people, was the Vatican Council. And granted, in 3 �Latin America, we didn't have visions of communities like you have in this country, but there were still some areas that Vatican II just broke down the walls completely. And this ability to learn from each other, to share, to grow…one of the Franciscans had a catechetical group, and he needed ideas of how to do this or that, we found ways to communicate with other people that were doing this. Like, then we had diocesan meetings. One meeting three/four days and maybe one day was a retreat day, but the other days…what are you doing about this, how could we do it better? And if somebody was really good, they presented, they talked, and they spoke. So, as time went by very rapidly, things changed very rapidly. I just wanted to get that piece in. Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: Thank you very much. 4 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Verdon, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Mary Ellen Verdon, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Verdon, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C.; Caranavi, Bolivia; Hospital of Saint Raphael, New Haven, CT; missioner; nurse; Saint Joseph Hospital, Paterson, NJ Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's preparation to become a nurse/missioner in Bolivia Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Verdon, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C.; Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 12, 1998 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Mary Ellen Verdon, S.C. describes her preparation to become a nurse/missioner in Bolivia Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant January 12, 1998 foreign mission Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f5b4074a66a4baf116981d2746774065.jpg 69cf7465c097cce7242e640553e6bbed https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/167f3d14cf8723c590df43c1d34b1e3e.mp3 663d459c2ad8160dd444be143cff0864 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/54feb333b47dc9ec5a3fc1c908cdfbb4.pdf 1bba31cae3e2d4f66eb9a81f8ea8d3a3 PDF Text Text TAPE #110 SISTER MARY EMMA McKINLEY INTERVIEWED BY: Sister Sally Duffy on August 19, 1978 Born March 28, 1893 in Cleveland, Ohio I had a very happy home-life. My dear mother and father created a home of happiness. We were nine children, I am the second youngest. When I spoke of entering the Community, my father was much disturbed. He wanted me to stay with them, but gradually, he changed his mind and gave his consent. He wasn’t happy to have me enter. I had a sister who had entered nine years ahead of me. When I entered I was two weeks short of 19 years old. WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO ENTER RELIGIOUS LIFE? I had had a craving to be a Sister for several years. I did have a little struggle to know where to go. Our Pastor wanted me to go to the Saint Joseph Sisters. He said: “You can lead as great a holy life here in Cleveland as you can in Cincinnati.” But, that didn’t satisfy me. So, I kept to my decision, and, thank God, I entered the Sisters of Charity. I entered on March 15, 1912. WHAT HAD BEEN YOUR CONTACT WITH THE CHARITIES? I had had the Sisters of Charity up to the sixth grade, then we moved to another parish and I had the Sisters of St. Joseph, so perhaps that was the cause for the little conflict. �WAS THERE ANYTHING SPECIFICALLY THAT DREW YOU TO THE SISTERS OF CHARITY? All I can say is the goodness and mercy of God that He directed me here. I have thanked Him many times for my religious vocation and especially to the Sisters of Charity. WAS THERE ANYONE IN PARTICULAR WHO INFLUENCED YOUR DECISION? No, I can’t say so. WHO WAS YOUR NOVICE MISTRESS? Sister Mary Teresa Troy was our Novice Mistress, and Sister Hyacinth Sullivan gave us our spiritual instructions. WHAT WAS YOUR NOVITIATE LIKE? It was what one would expect in religious life. It was not too easy, and yet, I loved every minute of it. We had regular instructions, prayers, domestic duties, many friends among the Novices and Postulants, a very kind Mistress. So, my Novitiate was very happy. YOU WERE NOVICE MISTRESS YOURSELF FOR MANY YEARS, IS THAT CORRECT? Yes, I was Novice Mistress from 1927 to 1933 then for one year I was with the Postulants only. �WAS THERE MUCH DIFFERENCE FROM YOUR OWN NOVITIATE AND YOUR POSTULANCY? No, I often say to my former Novices now, “How hard it must have been for you, but I went through the same thing and I could only give you what I, myself, had.” WAS THERE A CERTAIN STRUCTURE IN YOUR NOVITIATE? Very definitely. WHAT WAS THAT STRUCTURE LIKE? We were made acquainted with the Constitutions and our Praiseworthy Customs both of which are very beautiful. We had them read once a month so that we really got to know them. WHAT WAS THE SPIRIT LIKE AT THE TIME OF YOUR NOVITIATE? I think there was a deep spirit of prayer. We got along beautifully together, and yet, I don’t remember ever having any close, dear friends, but I still love my Novitiate friends. There are seven of them still living. �HOW MANY PEOPLE ENTERED THE COMMUNITY WITH YOU? Sister Agatha Eppley and I were the only two to enter on the same day. In the years gone by, girls entered on the day of their choice. We had planned to come on the feast of St. Joseph because I had a special devotion to St. Joseph, but my sister, Sister Agnes Joseph, was a school teacher and she couldn’t very well leave her classroom in the middle of the week to come down to Cincinnati with me. So, we entered the Friday before St. Joseph’s day, on the 15th of March. HAS THE SPIRIT OF THE COMMUNITY CHANGED OVER THE YEARS FOR YOU? No. For me, it has not, and I think for most of the older Sisters it has not... and even the middle aged Sisters. I think that the very young members have not had sufficient training in the Spirit to really know and love what it is. HOW MIGHT YOU SUGGEST THAT THE YOUNGER SISTERS BE TRAINED IN ORDER TO SHARE IN THE SAME SPIRIT THAT YOU SHARE? First of all, pray to the Holy Spirit asking Him to direct their spirit and give them the spirit of a true religious. I think we have always had a very beautiful family spirit in our Community. �ARE YOU FEARFUL THAT WE MAY LOSE THIS SPIRIT? I say, I don’t worry about the Community because I feel confident that the Sacred Heart is going to take care of our Community. Our Sisters have always been very devoted to the Sacred Heart, the Blessed Mother, and St. Joseph. And, yet, I am deeply concerned because I do feel that a much more worldly spirit has crept in. I can’t say that I blame anyone. I think that it is the spirit of the world creeping into religious life. HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE COMMUNITY? I finished my 66th year last month. AS YOU LOOK BACK ON THOSE 66 YEARS AS A SISTER OF CHARITY, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THEM? WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN LIKE FOR YOU? They have been a fulfillment of my hopes. I have been very happy, very happy. DID YOU HAVE DIFFICULT TIMES, OR PAINFUL TIMES? Well, we all have our daily little worries about our duties and whether we are doing right or wrong. But, for the most part, I have had no real worries in the Community. �WHAT HAS IT MEANT FOR YOU TO BE A RELIGIOUS WOMAN FOR 66 YEARS? It has much meaning. I look back over the years and think only how wonderfully merciful God has been to me. I feel that my life has been one continued chain of blessings both spiritual and temporal. I especially look over those years as mirrors of total commitment and complete satisfaction. The only regret I have is that I am not far better than I am today, that I have not made better use of all the wonderful spiritual and temporal lessons God has bestowed upon me. WHAT IS YOUR IDEA OF COMMUNITY...WHAT DOES COMMUNITY MEAN TO YOU? I think that Community should be first of all dedication to the cause of God, it should be lived in common with the Sisters in a spirit of love and helpfulness. Our convents should be, and I hope are, homes of peace and happiness. I am very sorry to hear now of so many Sister living outside of the convents, in apartments, living privately. I don’t think that is community life. Community means working together. All of this must certainly have an effect on the prayer life of the Sisters. We need one another. �SO I HEAR YOU SAYING THAT COMMUNITY IS VERY MUCH THE PRAYER PART AND SUPPORT OF EACH OTHER. Not only in the prayer life, yes. Our prayer life must come first, but also, in our life as Sisters, real Sisters living together, loving one another, helping one another wherever we can. I am so often just overwhelmed with the kindness I see most of our Sisters showing to other Sisters, especially those who need help. HAS THE PRAYER LIFE OF THE SISTER OF CHARITY CHANGED DURING THE 66 YEARS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE COMMUNITY? Well, that is a lot of personal questions and I can’t answer except for myself. I would say, for myself, no, it has not changed. In fact, if anything, it has increased and beautified. My community life means more to me today than ever. SAINT VINCENT HAD THE IDEA THAT FOR A SISTER OF CHARITY THE STREETS ARE HER CLOISTER. HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THIS IDEA? We do not have a cloister in the strict of the word, but by saying that the streets is our cloister means that even though we are mingling with the world at all times, meeting with people of all stations, we must be ready to help everybody and at the same time, live the life of a cloister in our own lives. This is the real spirit of recollection. I must admit that it is not easy to do this. It takes much practice, much hard work, much prayer, and a closeness to God. �KNOWING THE CHANGES SINCE VATICAN II AND ALL THE CHANGES IN THE COMMUNITY SINCE VATICAN II, DO YOU FEEL THAT THESE CHANGES HAVE MOVED US CLOSER TO THE PEOPLE, OR HAVE THEY MOVED US AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE? Well, I think taking off the religious habit has removed us from the people. I know, many Sisters say they can reach the people better in worldly clothes. But, I cannot agree with them. I have heard so many, many times, oh so many times, “Sister, it is so good to see you in a habit.” So, I really feel that the habit has a big part to play in our life as witnesses to the world. Then, too, our work among the sick, the poor, the lowly, little children, and people of all ranks, must draw others closer to God. I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN NOVICE DIRECTOR AND ALSO POSTULANT DIRECTOR, WHAT OTHER APOSTOLIC MINISTRIES WERE YOU INVOLVED IN? Well, for twenty of those years, I was local Superior in several schools; I taught in the elementary grades, most of the time I taught the 8th grade. SO, MOST OF YOUR COMMUNITY LIFE WAS SPENT TEACHING? Yes. �WHERE WERE SOME OF THE PLACES THAT YOU WERE ON MISSION? Do you want to know all of them? SURE! St. Joseph’s, Dayton for 9 years; then, I went to St. Leo’s, Detroit, for 3 years; than down to Memphis, Tennessee in 1925; in 1927 I returned to the Motherhouse to take charge of the Novitiate and in 1933, the Postulate. In 1934 I was at St. Dominic’s School, it was a brand new school, just opened. There I had to teach 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. From there I went to Holy Angels, Sidney and to St. Luke’s, Detroit. In 1943, I was back in Dayton, but this time, at Sacred Heart School. Then I was one year at St. Elizabeth, Norwood. In 1950, I went to St. Joseph’s, Springfield, from there to Saint Savior, Rossmoyne for 6 years. Then I went to Annunciation School in Clifton for another 6 years. In 1966, I returned to the Motherhouse. I became a resident at Mother Margaret Hall in October of 1975, and I have been there ever since. Mother Margaret Hall is all that anyone could wish for in the way of a nursing home. Along with hospital care, we have real family life. There are over 200 hundred Sisters in Mother Margaret Hall at the present time. �WHEN YOU ARE OUT ON YOUR MISSION EXPERIENCES, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU WERE A TEACHER MOST OF THE TIME. WERE YOU INVOLVED IN ANY OTHER TYPES OF WORK DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE TEACHING? Yes, I had charge of the servers, I guess that’s about all. WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR MOST MEMORABLE EVENT AS A SISTER OF CHARITY, WHAT STANDS OUT THE MOST IN YOUR MEMORY OF ALL YOUR YEARS OF BEING A SISTER OF CHARITY? One thing is the day we had permission to make perpetual vows. We made these in December of 1927. Up to that time, we had made vows for one year and renewed them each year. Mother Irenea requested Rome that we might make perpetual vows and all those Sisters who were in the Community long enough made perpetual vows. From that time on, it has been the custom for Sisters to make perpetual vows after their years of temporary profession which was usually from 5 to 6 years. WHO WERE SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IMPORTANT IN YOUR LIFE DURING YOUR 66 YEARS, AND HOW WERE THEY IMPORTANT TO YOU? A great many people...my Superiors, my own friends, the pupils among those whom I taught... I guess that’s about it. �WHAT WAS IT THAT THEY DID TO MAKE THEM IMPORTANT TO YOU? Mostly their lives, they were persons of integrity, they had a love for the Community, and for God, and in general were really friends, helpful friends. A FEW MINUTES AGO, YOU READ TO ME A LIST OF ALL THE MISSIONS THAT YOU SERVED ON... THEY WERE QUITE NUMEROUS. WHICH WAS YOUR FAVORITE MISSION? I really can’t say. I liked every mission I was on. Some were easier than others but that didn’t matter. There was a spirit in the house and the joy of my vocation that made them all more or less the same. WERE YOU ON ANY MISSIONS WHERE THE SISTERS OF CHARITY ARE NO LONGER SERVING? Sacred Heart, Dayton is no longer on our list; St. Joseph, Springfield has only one Sister; St. Luke’s, Detroit no Sisters. DO YOU HAVE ANY PARTICULAR COMMUNITY STORY THAT YOU COULD SHARE WITH US? I think I’ve told you enough. �DID YOU SAVE ANY OF YOUR NOVITIATE NOTES? I don’t think I have them in writing, but I know that I have them in my heart because they were made so vivid to us that they made a deep impression. I thank God, along with my comrades, I think that we have kept them in our hearts all these years. YOU KNOW THAT I’M A NOVICE RIGHT NOW. WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST TO ME, THINGS THAT WOULD REALLY HELP ME, OR BENEFIT ME IN MY RELIGIOUS LIFE? WHAT KIND OF ADVICE COULD YOU GIVE TO ME? Well, that’s a big order. First of all, be serious about your vocation, realizing that after the gift of Faith, it is the greatest gift that God has given you. Be faithful to your prayers, your prayer life, the sacraments. What I would like to say is live a real community life, but I realize that on some conditions today, that is very hard. I think that a lot of people who are coming to religious life today are just as sincere, just as fervent as Sisters ever were. I think that they want the spirit of sacrifice, and I’m afraid that they are not getting it. The world has entered into the Community far too much. There is very little restraint on a young Sister of the present day. We have to have structure, we need Superiors to guide us, we need our companions, good faithful, holy souls to help us along the way. But it is all worth the trials, it is well worth all the difficulties you may encounter, and I only hope that our young people today will enter religious life with a strong determination to leave the world, and devote themselves to �Christ and His work. We must expect sacrifice. Christ has given us the best example. Is there anything He did not sacrifice for all of us? Be strong-hearted, determined to follow the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and beg Him every day to draw you closer to His sacred heart and to His blessed mother. WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN TO PULL THE COMMUNITY AWAY FROM THIS SPIRIT OF WORLDLINESS THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT? I would like to see the new members of the Community spend their first days, months, and even a couple of years, at the Motherhouse. The Motherhouse of Mount Saint Joseph is truly our house of prayer. It is the home of the spirit of the Sisters of Charity and we all need that as a foundation before we are able to go out on our own. Strike your roots deep in religion. Don’t be looking out for anything that is easy. If we give ourselves to God, He will put us where we are needed, He will give us what we need to do the work He wants us to do, and surely we will be happy. �WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD DURING THOSE 66 YEARS? My relationship with God has been that of a child for my heavenly Father, trusting in the Sacred Heart and His Blessed Mother, and devotion to the Holy Spirit. Also, we are to go back to following the spirit of Mother Seton. We hear so much about the charism of Mother Seton. One of her charisms was devotion to the Blessed Sacrament. Formerly, it was a rule for all Sisters to spend one half hour adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, daily. Some have drifted away from this. We need Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, please go back to the habit of spending this time with Him. I know that if you were to read the Constitutions and Praiseworthy Customs as we knew them, as we still know them, you might think some were absurd, perhaps some little requirements were unnecessary. But for the most part every one played its own part in forming our character and educating us in the life of a religious and strengthening us against the temptations and the desires of the world. END OF TAPED INTERVIEW � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed McKinley, Sister Mary Emma, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Duffy, Sister Sally, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 37 Minutes 39 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Mary Emma McKinley, SC Interviewed by Sister Sally Duffy, SC August 19, 1978 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Mary Emma McKinley by Sister Sally Duffy. The interview was conducted soon after Sister Sally entered the Community in 1977 and her subject, Sister Mary Emma, had previously served as a Mistress of Novices from 1927 to 1934. The discussion centers on the stark changes to formation and religious life in the United States during the twentieth century. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McKinley, Sister Mary Emma, SC; Duffy, Sister Sally, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/19/1978 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Mary Emma McKinley, SC Interviewed by Sister Sally Duffy, SC August 19, 1978 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1912-1978 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Religious Formation Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati