4 10 108 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/8f0f987bb4b48eedb12dd632aaba6e6f.PNG a542caf60e53538cd79da73e2f091ebb https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/8a0c87accb30f6ef10acd95d9fc41b40.pdf 722d40c293da9a54fde8996d6956592a PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 1 of 32 JK: Sister Mary Carlo, we're very happy to have you here today, and thank you for agreeing to join in the oral history project. This interview is with Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro, and the interviewer is Jane Kenamore. And we are at the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Mother House in Leavenworth, Kansas. The date is June 27, 2017. Sister Mary Carlo, where were you born? [00:00:33] MCC: I was born in Casper, Wyoming. My mother and father had come over from Italy in the '20s. My mother is from the Adriatic side of Italy, up in the mountains, and my father is from southern Italy which was very, very poor. They came at different times of course. And the reason they came, my father came because it was very poor in Italy at that time, and he had had brothers who had gone, come to the United States, and they settled in Chicago. So, my father—and I think he lied about his age—came over and fought on our side in World War I. JK: He did. MCC: Yes, he did, and I think he lied about his age. But, anyway, he was short and he was a runner, and the only injury he had was a thumb that was out of joint. JK: Was he a runner as in a military runner? [00:01:42] MCC: I don't know how they did it in World War I, but they sent messages by runners apparently because he was one of the runners. And he didn't talk a whole lot about it, but he was kind of proud that he had fought on our side. And he always would dress up when they'd have parades in his VFW with uniform, you know, and a parade. So, he's very proud to have done that. My mother came over at a different time because those were the days when you had to be sponsored to come to the United States. And my mother is from a large family of 11. There were two boys, and the rest were all girls. So, the oldest girl was married in Italy, and they came over way early like in the '20s and went to Denver and bought a saloon and made lots of money in those days. And then she began to sponsor all of her sisters. And Mama was not the second one but the third one. So, the first one came over and she went to Denver, and then she decided to go up to Wyoming, Casper, Wyoming, and visit some friends. And when my mother came over, she was sponsored next, and she came over and went to Denver. And then she wanted to go up to Casper to see this sister, and she did and met my father, and I don't think she ever went back to Denver. So, that's how we all happened to be born in Casper, Wyoming. And Mother and Daddy had three children. I have two brothers, one older and one younger. I was born in 1926, and Father Dan was born in 1922, and Father Phil was born in 1930. So, I �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 2 of 32 have two brothers or I did; they died recently, but my two brothers… There were just three in the family. JK: All of you went into religious. [00:04:00] MCC: Father Phil, who is the youngest of the three of us, always knew he wanted to be a priest. We said he knew it right out of the womb. And so he told the priest at home, and so Father Phil is the only one who went to Maur Hill in Atchison, and he became a priesthood student. They had priesthood students there. But Father Dan and I, we graduated from our high school in Casper, and then we went on to college at the University of Wyoming in Laramie. And Father Dan, he wasn't a priest then, but he was a senior when I was a freshman, and, of course, freshmen are always crying. So, I would go over to Father Dan's place and cry my heart out 'cause I was homesick. But we made it through. Father Dan majored in mechanical engineering and I majored in business because those were the days when we didn't have a lot of money. We never went to Catholic school, none of us. JK: You didn't. [00:05:06] MCC: No. JK: Oh, my goodness. MCC: We didn't have the money to attend because it was tuition. So we went to grade school, high school and college all in public schools. There was only Father Phil later on that finally went to Maur Hill in Atchison. JK: Was church still the center of your life? [00:05:28] MCC: No. Not really because Mama and Daddy couldn't talk English, couldn't speak English, and so we didn't go to church and they didn't go to church. However, we had a wonderful… well, she's our godmother now, a block away and I think it was she who was… She and hers were from Ireland right off the old… right from the old sod. And I think she took Mama under her wing and eventually all of us were baptized. Mrs. Goggin made sure we were baptized. And little by little we started going to Our Lady of Perpetual Devotions and this and that and this and that, and eventually we all came in the… I was baptized, of course, in the church. Mrs. Goggin made sure that that happened, and we all were but we didn't go to church. JK: As infants? [00:06:25] MCC: As infants, yes. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 3 of 32 JK: Ok. MCC: So, that's how that happened, and it's interesting, isn't it, that we just didn't go to Catholic school though. The first time I stepped into a Catholic college was when I taught over her at the University of St. Mary. JK: Really? [00:06:43] MCC: Yes. The first time ever. I was going to Denver University to get my master's degree, because I majored in typing and shorthand and bookkeeping. That's a long time ago. Those things don't even exist now. JK: Right. MCC: And so I went to the University of Denver to get my master's degree, and I worked for the dean of graduate school. And the secretary there was a little Quaker girl, and she and I became very well-acquainted. And she knew that there were other Sisters attending the U. to get their master's and she introduced me to them. And so, these Sisters lived at St. Joseph Hospital at that time and would just come by bus or streetcar to school, and they would bring their lunch, and I would always eat with the littlest one, and her name was Sister Xavier. And so we'd eat together sitting on the steps somewhere. And then she'd always give me her Oreo cookies out of her lunch. So, I always tell people my vocation was generated by three Oreo cookies. JK: (Laughs) So, you were not a Sister at that time. [00:08:09] MCC: No, no, no. JK: You were just getting your master's degree. MCC: Yes, that's right. That's right. JK: What were your plans? [00:08:15] MCC: Then I went back and I said would teach. I taught one year in Gillette, Wyoming when it was not the big boom town that it is now. And then I got a better job at Cody, Wyoming, and I was making pretty good money. In fact, I was making 2600 dollars a year. (Laughs) JK: Wow. And when was that? [00:08:46] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 4 of 32 MCC: Oh, gosh, let's see. I graduated from the University in 1947, and then I got my master's, so that would be '48. JK: So, sometime after that. I was going to ask you if you knew anything about the JapaneseAmerican internment camp which was just outside of Cody. [00:09:07] MCC: Oh, that's right. They had them there. However, in Casper we had a Japanese family there. JK: Oh, you did? [00:09:13] MCC: Down in north Casper. And the oldest boy was Father Dan's age. And one of the girls was my age, so I went to school with them. JK: Oh, you did. MCC: High school, yes. JK: Oh, that's interesting. MCC: And I remember when we had our 50th reunion she came back. JK: She did. MCC: She was a pianist. She was wonderful. She went… I forgot where that is where you studied to be in piano. But, anyway, she was very good, excellent. But she came back on our 50th anniversary and it was just nice to see her. JK: Yes. Now, did she ever talk about her time in the internment camp? [00:09:55] MCC: No, and I didn't ask her. JK: Right. It's not something you would ask. MCC: We didn't talk about those things. JK: Right. So, your original career goals were to go… MCC: Was to teach. JK: …to teach. [00:10:10] MCC: That's right. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 5 of 32 MCC: And I taught, I think, for 27 years and didn't like any of it. JK: Oh, no. MCC: This is what happened. I did teach for 27 years as a Sister… JK: As a Sister. [00:10:25] MCC: …in Butte, in Topeka, and I can't remember where else. Anyway, one time… my two brothers and I are very close. So, one time when they were together they thought that I wasn't happy and for some reason maybe… well, maybe it was because, you know, you try to get the students to type correctly and make corrections, and they never did. They didn't think that was important. They didn't think hyphenation was important. They didn't think that proofreading was important. I think I was getting a little discouraged. And I guess I showed that in my voice or they heard that in my voice. So, they called me up one day. It was after Easter. And they said we think that you should go to the mother general and ask her if you can have a sabbatical. I didn't know what a sabbatical was in those days. But I went and I said I just think I need to get away, maybe to learn more theology. That's what I asked for. So, she said, "Where would you like to go?" And I said, "I understand there's something out in San Francisco, a Jesuit place out there." Well, she said, "we'll see." And so it was all set. She said that I could finally go there and get some theology. And I was all packed and ready to go and the phone rang, and she said, the mother general said, "We think you should go to Denver, because that's closer to home, and your mother is still living." So, you do what you're told. So, I went to Denver, and I took theology at the seminary. I went out to the seminary and took theology classes. It was very difficult for me because I had never been in a Catholic school. So, I'd be on the phone talking to Father Dan most of the time. But, anyway, he encouraged me. And so then I went on retreat, and I met our Sister who was on retreat too, and I asked her at that time if I could be transferred from the teaching ministry to the hospital ministry. And she said yes. And so I did. And so I was sent... And I remember that so well. I went down to St. Joseph and I got there and in six weeks I was having major surgery. I'd never been sick in my life before, never been in a hospital before. And it was on the gynecology floor. And when I was recuperating I would walk around and visit all the other ladies that were recuperating. And I found out I was very much like my father who could get a lamppost to talk. JK: (Laughs) �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 6 of 32 MCC: So, after a year, after I recuperated from my surgery and everything I finally decided to… Here's what I said. I'm divorcing all of my machines. I don't want any more of that in my life— typing or shorthand or anything—and I want to go into pastoral ministry. JK: Oh, ok. Let's back up and talk a little more about your teaching career since you spent 27 years doing this. So, did you start out in grade school? [00:14:02] MCC: No. No. JK: No, you didn't. MCC: I taught in the high school. I taught in Gillette when it was just a little dot on the… Right now it's a booming town with all the minerals up there. From my typing room you could look down the street and there was nothing there. JK: Really. MCC: Yes, it was just nothing. JK: Yes. MCC: And so I started going out with a young man who was the principal of the grade school. JK: This was before you were a Sister. [00:14:34] MCC: It was before I was a Sister. And at the EBFW every Friday night they had dancing. And so we would go every Friday night. There's nothing else to do. JK: Right. MCC: So, we'd do that. And so, then I went home for, I can't remember, after that year, I think. And it happened that that young man came to Casper, and I invited him to dinner at our home. And we had dinner and when he left my older brother, Father Dan, said, "Keep looking." (Laughter) MCC: So, I did. JK: So, you did. MCC: That's when I went to Denver and started working on my master's degree. JK: Ok, and so it was there that you met… �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 7 of 32 MCC: The Sisters. JK: … the Sister with the Oreo cookies. [00:15:32] MCC: That's right. That's right. JK: Ok, ok. And then when did you join? [00:15:37] MCC: Ok. So, when Sister Xavier, the one that shared her cookies with me, came back that summer, they found out they needed a business teacher at the college. It wasn't a university yet. It was a college. And so they called me up. And she said, "Would you like to come?" And I didn't want to because Kansas was halfway across the world for me in those days. And I said, "I just don't know." She said, "Why don't you come for an interview?" And so it was around Easter time. So, I remember walking up the lane with my little tin suitcase, and I went to visit with Sister; Sister Mary Paul was the vice president at the time. There was a president, but he was a… Dr. Murphy was the president, but she ran the school; it was a college. And all the Sisters taught there, and it was only Sisters. So, we were talking and she said, "Let's talk about money." And I said, "All right." She said, "How much were you making at your last place?" And I said, "I think I was getting 2400 a year." And remember this is way back. JK: Right, I understand, yes. [00:16:57] MCC: And so she said, "What about 2600?" And since I really didn't want to go there I kind of wrinkled up my nose, I guess. And I said, "Well…" And she said, "Three thousand?" I said, "I'll take it." JK: (Laughs) MCC: That was a hundred dollars a month. So, I went home and I told Mom and Dad and they were very pleased. And so that year I went. And then I taught. And there were about five of us lay teachers and they had a place for us to stay, and it was at the end of the building. We all had our own room and everything. So, we had a good time. We made our own order. We were the Order of Perpetual Recreation. JK: (Laughs) MCC: And the Sisters were so good to us. Every one of us had a feast day, and my name was Sister Mary Candelabra. And when we had a feast day Sister would send up a nice cake, 'cause the lay teachers all sat in one dining room, and we had a lot of fun together. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 8 of 32 So, then that was when I got used to the Sisters and working with them and everything, and after that, then, I didn't know whether I had a vocation or not. And there was a priest on campus, Father Dennis Mary, (phonetic) a Dominican, and I used to go every month and talk to him. And I'd say, "Do you think I have a vocation? How does one know if you have it?" I felt like I did but I didn't know how. And so I went every month and finally he said, "In May, Sister, what you have to do is decide once and for all. It's like going swimming. If you stick your big toe in you'll never get in. What you have to do is just hold your nose and jump in." So, after that talk, that's what I did. I jumped in. So, then I went home and told Mom and Daddy. It was May. I told Mom and Daddy that I wanted to go to the convent. JK: What was their reaction? [00:19:17] MCC: They were happy. JK: Oh, ok. Good. MCC: They were both happy. Daddy said to me, "So you want to be a "mornica," (phonetic) which is Italian for Sister. And I said, "Yes, Daddy." "Be a good one." So, I was to come here, I think, about August the 15th or something like that. And didn't my father up and die on July 24th, 1953, and that's why I have his name. Carlo was his name. JK: Oh, really? MCC: Yes. And so I chose that. No, we had to submit three names that we'd like, and I submitted Mama's name and then Daddy's name second. And then when you were getting your constitution, a little black book with a little small envelope in it, and you were to in silence go to the big chapel and open up the little envelope. And I opened it up and it was Sister Mary Carlo. JK: Oh, nice. MCC: And I thought that's a good way to remember my Daddy. So I always kept the name. When the Sisters went back to their baptismal name, and mine was Rose, I never did. JK: Mary Carlo is a beautiful name. [00:20:35] MCC: It is. It is. And so that's how I got my name, and that's how I entered in… JK: And then when you entered then you went back into teaching, right? [00:20:47] MCC: Yes, I did. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 9 of 32 JK: And, so, did you continue to teach at… MCC: I taught at the college. JK: …at St Mary? [00:20:52] MCC: I taught at the college. It was a college, not a university yet. And some of our Sisters sent me off to school, Notre Dame. I went to Notre Dame once and went someplace else another time. I can't remember. But I never had a desire to get a PhD. In those days you just didn't. JK: They were rare. MCC: That's right. And, so, I taught at the college and I really did like it a lot, and I liked being around the Sisters. No, this was when I was not in the Sisterhood yet. We were the Order of Perpetual Recreation, remember. (Laughter) MCC: But then when I went home and then I came back and that, and then my father died just in July and I entered in August. And then I was—what should I do? Because my brothers were in the seminary, and they couldn't be with Mama. Am I going to leave my mother all alone? It was very difficult. But this Father Dennis Mary (phonetic) that I had been in counseling with said, "Do whatever your mother says." And Mama said, "You have to go." JK: Really. MCC: She said, "You have your whole life ahead of you and I have to be alone," and she did for 40 years. JK: Wow. She was a very strong woman. MCC: She was. JK: And a very unselfish woman. [00:22:31] MCC: But our community has been very, very good to us. And when Mama got older I asked if I could go home and take care of her, and I did. I did for almost eight years which was wonderful to be able to do that and wonderful of our community to allow me to do that. JK: It really was. MCC: It was. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 10 of 32 JK: Did you also do some work in…? [00:23:01] MCC: That's when I started my caring ministry, because my brother, Father Dan, at that time was pastor at our church which was just two blocks from our home, Our Lady of Fatima. I looked for a job, but nobody would hire a nun. So, he said, "I'll tell you what we'll do if it's ok with your community. You work for our church here, Our Lady of Fatima. You work for our church, and I'll pay you a salary and you start this caring ministry and go out and visit." So, that's what I did. It was just wonderful. And I realized then, you know, that I just really enjoyed people and talking to them. So I started it. And what I did is I made a list of all the things that you could sign up for. You could go visit at the hospital or send cards to the hospital or make cards to send to the hospital. Or you could take communion to the hospital or to the people that are home bound. You could cook for people that come back from the hospital who couldn't cook. You could give somebody a ride to go to church who didn't have a ride. You could write letters. You could do… I had a whole 8 ½ by 11, no, by 14 page. JK: Of things that you could do. [00:24:29] MCC: Oh, all these things, and we called it the caring ministry. And people signed up for it. The first time, the first year, there were 20 people, and when I left later to come home there are120. JK: Really. MCC: And they did everything, and they loved it. They loved it. JK: What was your favorite part of the caring ministry? [00:24:52] MCC: First of all just directing it, making sure everybody… And then every year they signed up. I didn't want them to think that once that they started doing something they had to do it for the rest of their life. So, I'm a good typist, which is out-of-date now, but I typed up a list every year and they signed up for what they wanted every year so that I knew that what they signed up for they wanted to do. So, then, I did that. I forgot how many… Well, Mama died. That was it. Mama finally died. Not finally, but, you know. JK: I know. MCC: Mama died and then a Sister Sue, who was the mother general at the time, said I think you should go home. "Come home," she said, because the mother general always makes a visit to every house where a Sister is every year in her term. So, it was that time, and she came. I cooked a nice breakfast for her. I remember that. And then she said, "We think you need to come home." �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 11 of 32 And my brothers agreed. We think you should go back there. And so that's when I finally, not finally, but I was called home, and I came and I'm not sorry. So, I came back and I was at the Mother House for 20 years and I loved every minute of it, yes. JK: And what did you do here? [00:26:16] MCC: Then when I came here I said, well, let's start a caring ministry among the Sisters. So, I did. And they signed up for it. But after a while it kind of dwindled out. The Sisters weren't as persevering as the people were. But that was ok. It was time to close that chapter. Also, at that time when I first came back I realized there's a military base here. Then one day we had no chaplain at our place, and we had to go out every morning for Mass if we wanted it. So, we went to this church, Immaculate Conception, and there were five of us Sisters and we all in the, you know, square hat, all in habit and everything. And when we came out I got a tap on the shoulder and this lady said, "I want to tell you what my little girl said." And so she said, "Mommy, there are five saints back there." JK: (Laughs) MCC: She said, "If they would like to write some questions and ask about Sisters, would you be willing to answer them?" JK: "Oh," I said, "Yes." "You know," I said, "I'd be even happy to come in your home sometime and talk to you about it." "Oh," she said, "that's fine. Let me talk to my husband." So, she talked to her husband and called me up, and she said, "Could you come for Sunday brunch? And we've invited two other families over. One family has two children, a boy and girl, and the other one has five boys and a girl." I said, "That’s ok, 'cause I have brothers and I can answer questions about priests too." And so we ran over there and that was the beginning of our friendship and that's the one who… They were just married out of West Point, and so we went on base and answered their questions and then we became good friends because they ended up having one boy and eight girls. And now… JK: My gosh. MCC: That's the young man. This young man is very, very generous. They were very good Catholics, but he was very generous. And if there were other officers on the base who wanted to have a date night he'd babysit their children. JK: Really? [00:29:03] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 12 of 32 MCC: Yes. Now, what kind of a person was that? JK: A good person. MCC: That's my Brigadier General now. JK: Really? And what is his name? [00:29:12] MCC: David Francis. JK: David Francis. MCC: They spent a lot of time here at the Mother House. I'd have them over for supper. We'd go out on a picnic. We'd put a penny on the railroad track. We just had a lot of fun. And Jody, the wife, was very… wanted her children to do for others, so they made pillows for all the Sisters in Ross Hall. JK: Oh, how nice. MCC: When we had the old Ross Hall. And we brought them out. And then the oldest boy, who was just in fifth grade at that time, had a magic show. So, we brought the magic show over. JK: That's cute. MCC: And the Sisters loved it. And, of course, they were thrilled to death. And then they got older and they got older. So, it was just last year. No, one time they came for dinner, just the two, the couple, and that's when I said to him, "David," I said, "I'm going to make a prediction. One of these days, I don't know when, you're going to be a four-star general." No, then I found out there were five-star generals so I changed the prediction. I said, "You're going to be a five-star general." And I had to find out what the five stars… who they were. But I did and I wrote them down. But, anyway, that's when one of their daughters decided to go to Benedictine school in Atchison. And so she would call me up and she'd come down and bring some friends and we'd have a lot of fun. So, one day… And, see, I followed this family. They went from Leavenworth to Hawaii, to Erie, Pennsylvania, down at Rutgers, then to Korea and then back. So, now he is a Brigadier General down there. JK: That's amazing. MCC: And every time he gets commissioned higher they send me an invitation and I write back and I say, "I would have come, but the Sisters wouldn't loan me their visas." �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 13 of 32 JK: (Laughs). MCC: And so on Mother's Day, just this year, they called me from Korea. They were down in… JK: Oh, really. MCC: They called me from Korea and they said, "We're calling you to wish you a happy Mother's Day because you've always been a mother to our children. But we want you to know now that we are going to be grandparents." And I said, "Oh, good, then I'm going to be a grandmother." [31:56] JK: (Laughs) MCC: So, anyway, one time when David came with his daughter and we were sitting in this room having lunch or supper or whatever it was, and at the very end David said to me, "Sister, you've always prayed for us, and I want you to have this." And that's when he handed me the gold star. JK: How nice. [00:32:19] MCC: No, it's a silver star. JK: Right. MCC: And he pinned it on my… I think. So, I wrote a letter to all the Sisters and I said, "Now," I said, "you have to call me General Colibraro, but you don't have to salute." JK: (Laughs) MCC: Oh, we've had fun on that. But he's only now at a Brigadier General, and he's down at Rutgers now, commissioned. He's back from Seoul. He's only like 52 years old. JK: Is that right? [00:32:52] MCC: Yes. He's going to really go up high, I think. JK: Yes. MCC: But, anyway, that's that stuff. JK: So, do Brigadier Generals wear a star? One star? [00:33:01] MCC: One star. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 14 of 32 JK: Ok. MCC: And so do I. (Laughs) JK: Right, and so do you. Right. (Laughter) MCC: That family has brought me more joy… JK: Oh, I can imagine. MCC: …than any others. I've love many of the people that I still keep in touch with. But every time David would get a promotion they have to come here to Leavenworth. I guess they get information they need to know. And he'd always call me up and say, "I'll be there about 8:30 in the morning out in front. I won't be here long, but could you just come?" And I'd be out there waiting, and then he'd say, "I have to leave now." They're sending a plane for him. JK: (Laughs) MCC: So, we really had a nice relationship. JK: Oh, it sounds like it. Yes. [00:33:19] MCC: It was just very nice. JK: Let's see. When you joined Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth that was prior to Vatican II, wasn't it? [00:34:08] MCC: Uh-huh. JK: Yes. And so while you were in the community Vatican II happened, so you've experienced the old ways and the new ways. Can you tell about some of the changes that you liked? [00:34:21] MCC: Oh, whatever the community said was ok with me. When we changed to no veils, however, the community always said that those who want to could wear their veil. I chose what I wanted and that was to wear my veil. When we went to something else, you could wear slacks, you know, or you don't have to wear slacks. I chose not to. And so the community has been very gracious and open to what we want �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 15 of 32 as Sisters, and so we make the decision. So that's why I made this decision—I still wear my veil and my, what we call, nun boots. (Laughter) MCC: And I'm very happy. JK: And why do you like to wear the veil? [00:35:15] MCC: It's how I came, and I want them to learn to recognize me when I get out there. (Laughter) MCC: But several things have happened. And people would say… I would go out to the lunch. I had a very, very good Lutheran friend—her husband was a Lutheran minister—and we were very good friends, and we'd go out to different places. And one time, and this is just kind of an incidental, but one time we were at IHOP and when they brought the tickets I said, "Where is mine?" And she gave Virginia hers but I didn't get one. She said, "That man over there paid for yours." JK: Oh, my goodness. MCC: And I said, "Oh, well, ok." So that was kind of surprising. But, anyway, afterwards I ran over to him and I said, "Thank you, sir. You didn't need to that." And he said, "I wanted to. You've given your whole life to God." So, I thought, well, I didn't do it for that. JK: For a free lunch. [00:36:33] MCC: No, no, right. (Laughter) MCC: And then when I would go home I had to go through Denver, and I'd have to walk through DIA. And, I don't know, three or four times, because I went home often in those days—I was younger—and a man would stop me, mostly men, not women necessarily, but men just stopped me, and he said, "Sister, thank you for wearing your habit." And thank you for doing this. "I appreciate your keeping the veil," or something. But I didn't do it for that reason. But people did notice. And, I don't know, I didn't like the idea of having to take care of my hair. (Laughter) JK: That's a point. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 16 of 32 MCC: But that was minor, you know. JK: Yes. You were involved with the AIDS epidemic. [00:37:26] MCC: Oh, yes. JK: When did you become involved with that? [00:37:30] MCC: When I was in Denver working at the hospital. One time I went to visit this young man, and I always sit on the bed. I used to sit on the bed when I visit. And I went in and I said… He was a Catholic. It was marked on the sheet Catholic, 'cause we're a Catholic hospital in Denver, and he was marked as a Catholic, so I went into visit him. He had a sarcoma, yes, the purple where…. JK: Kaposi sarcoma. [00:38:07] MCC: Kaposi, yes. And then I said, "What's wrong? Why are you here?" And then he says, "Well, they don't know. They're contacting," what is it, "the CDC in Atlanta, and they'll find out what I've got." Well, it came back. What is it called, sarcoma…? JK: K-A-P-O-S-I... MCC: That's right, sarcoma. JK: …apostrophe S. [00:38:34] MCC: And then I said, "What is that?" And he said, "I don't know, but I probably won't make it." And here he was a Catholic. And so I went down and notified Father to come anoint him 'cause, you know, if he's going to die. Well, then I found out he refused the anointing, and when I went into his room and he told me that I started to cry, 'cause I thought, ooh. But, anyway, he called me back into his room. He said, "Sister," he said, "I can take it. I'm ready. If that's what the Lord wants I can go." And I just didn't know what to say. I just never had experienced that before. I didn't have a lot of training before I went into pastoral work but I did later on. But I just sort of winged it. And so I said, "I'll be here for you. If you need me, call me." And he never did. He died without being anointed. And that bothered me a lot. However, since then I realized the Lord makes the decisions and He knows what goes on in people's hearts, and I didn't have to worry. Later on, up on that same floor, because they were all private rooms, a lady came to visit. This was on the other unit, but it was up on the tenth floor where there were all private rooms. And �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 17 of 32 she said, I'm his mother… no his grandmother."I'm his grandmother." And it's May. "And here's 120 dollars, and I want you to go home and visit your mother for Mother's Day. JK: Oh, my goodness. [00:40:20] MCC: That was his grandmother. So, you see, when you have your grandmother rooting for you you don't have to worry. So, I tried to let that go that I didn't fail him. But after that then I was more prepared for the AIDS patients, and you had to gown up because they didn't realize then that, though they didn't have all the answers—I'll put it that way—and you had to gown up. You had to put something on your head and your shoes. You had to wear the gown. You had to wear gloves. You'd just make sure you couldn't touch any of their fluids or anything like that. But I went in. You know that was my… and I met some wonderful, wonderful young men. They all died. JK: Yes. MCC: All of those in that day and age died. And now they have medicine that they can take, but in those days they all died. And one summer when one of our Sisters who's from Montana who worked with the AIDS patients came home told about what she did with them. She'd take them here, do this or do that. And then when she finished she asked if there are any questions, and I got up and said, "Sister, you're lucky. All of yours have lived. All the ones that I met early on in those days died." Yes, they did. And when I worked at the hospital if ever I had a patient who died I always wrote a letter to the family, and I wrote a letter to this one young man, and the family wrote back and they said he wanted to be a writer, and he was writing a book and here are two copies for you. JK: Oh, how nice. [00:42:00] MCC: And another one wrote back, the ones from Maine wrote back and said, "You were so good to our son. We want to pay your way to come see us in Maine." And they sent the money, and I went and I met them. They're from York, Maine which is a resort town up there. And a lot of them were gay up there. And they knew it. But the father was the chief of police and so at Christmastime they invited all of the people that had AIDS to their home and, yes… which was wonderful, wasn't it? JK: Yes. MCC: And when their son finally died, 'cause she was a nurse, and he nursed him, they bought a room in the hospital and called it his room and named it. And then his partner was in San Francisco, and he died a year later almost to the day. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 18 of 32 JK: Really. MCC: So, those were hard days for families and for the people that have it, but I met some wonderful, wonderful people. One was a university professor from the University of Wyoming. And one was also a husband of a good friend of mine that we used to visit real often, but he would every once in a while take a trip to Las Vegas and then… yes, see, so. JK: Yes. MCC: And she kind of whispered it to me. She said, "Really, he died of AIDS." JK: I'm sorry, what was that? [00:43:47] MCC: The wife said to me when he died, "He really died of AIDS." JK: Really. MCC: But, anyway, that was my connection with AIDS patients. I still write to the families to this day. I do, yes. JK: Oh, that's good. How many years were you involved with it actually? [00:44:10] MCC: I worked in the hospital 11 years, and it was the happiest years of my religious life. JK: Oh, that's good. MCC: 'Cause I met so many people. I became a grandmother. This young lady came to the hospital and she had an anencephalic baby. And so none of us knew what that was at the time, but I used to go visit this little child in the intensive care nursery every day, every day, every day, and I'd bring him a rose. So, when he died… They usually died the first day or within 24 hours, but this one went on and on. And I used to go every day and bring him a rose. And I would keep track of it, so when he finally died I typed everything up in a booklet and handed it to the mother and, of course, she was thrilled and invited me to the funeral in their back yard. And so I've been friends with Patty for I don't know how many years now, and we still keep in touch. And this Christmas when she wrote me she said, "Merry Christmas. A babe brought us together, and now we celebrate the Babe." I'm sorry but… JK: No, I know. It's affecting all of us. (Laughs) MCC: But you know what I do in Ross Hall now? �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 19 of 32 JK: What? [00:45:40] MCC: I have a chair by the window. Both of my brothers have died, one last year and one just this year, and they were eight years apart, but they were close. We lived together sometimes. And I sit in my window, my chair by the window, with my two brothers' pictures there, and it brings me great peace. But I also thank God, for all the wonderful people that he's brought in my life. And I cried then too. (Laughter) MCC: But anyway, yes. JK: What else did you do at St. Joseph's Hospital? [00:46:25] MCC: One time, I don't know how it all came about, but I said, "Oh, my gosh, you know, I've been with a lot of deaths at the hospital." I kept track. There were about 265 all together. JK: Oh, my goodness. MCC: And that was the time when Elisabeth Kubler-Ross came out with her, you know, at first you're angry and then you're this and then you're this and finally… JK: Right. Right, right. Yes. MCC: And so I read her book and I realized that I had examples for every one of those steps. And so I started giving talks on… and then I could illustrate them. This person that came in... Like one time there was an AIDS patient on the fourth floor. It was in the wing, and he had brought a cake for his friend. But when he got there the friend had died. JK: Oh, how awful. [00:47:15] MCC: And I remember him taking that cake and throwing it in a garbage can and going to the elevator and poking… He was angry, you know. JK: Right. MCC: But examples like that that were true. Then I started giving talks around Denver in the hospital first to some of the doctors that I thought maybe would benefit by it or they asked me to talk. Let me put it that way. And little by little then somebody would ask me to go here or go here. One time they invited me up to Vail and I got to ride on the whatever… JK: Oh, did you? �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 20 of 32 MCC: And then I gave a talk, you know. And I remember sitting out there on the edge of a cliff and looking out at all the mountains and everything in one… yes. And we were involved with a Jewish wedding at that time, but that's beside the point. But, yes, I've had a lot of wonderful experiences, and that's why sometimes when I think about them I do have to cry. They're beautiful. JK: You said you gave talks, and I know that you were involved in hospice which is not new but it has become more known in the past 20, 25 years. [00:48:45] MCC: In those days if you were in hospice you knew you were going to die, so you didn't make any bones about it. And I remember going to visit someone that was in the hospice and you had to gown all up of course. But I was used to doing that in the hospital so I did that and made some very nice friends and always wrote to their families, and so I have friends all over from some of that. But I did keep track of all of my deaths so that I could use the examples to help other people. And I remember I had never been around a death before even though my father died. He just had a massive heart attack and that was it. But I remember the first time in the hospital that I hadn't experienced a death. So, Sister Marilyn, who was a Benedictine from up here, was chaplain down there. So, one day she said to me, "This man is a Catholic man, and he's on his last breath. Would you like to come and see what I do?" And I said, "Oh, yes, I'll be happy to. So, we went in and I remember she prayed for him and she said some Hail Marys for him and some other things and just was quiet and everything. And then he did die. And then after the family left and everything, Sister said me, "Should we go into the dining room and just kind of process this and see?" So, we went in and Sister said, "How do you feel?" And I said, "I think I'm going to throw up." JK: Oh, gosh. (Laughs) [00:50:56] MCC: That's how I felt, 'cause I had never experienced a death. JK: Right. MCC: And it was good experience because then when I was home with Mama that helped a lot. JK: What do you say about people who support physician-assisted suicide? [00:50:53] MCC: See, I'm against that. But it's a person's own right to do that, and so I'm not against it, but God makes the decision. And I think that suffering is very redemptive. That's what Jesus did on the cross. He suffered. So, whatever suffering you go through is redemptive if you offer it up. Now, some Catholics and non-Catholics don't maybe appreciate that or know about it. And that's ok, because in my mind God loves every person he ever created, and he's not going to send to �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 21 of 32 hell somebody who just because at the last moment made a different decision. So, it's ok. If you want to do that ok. Now, I don't know if I'm right or wrong on that, but that's how I feel about it. JK: That's kind of the way I feel too. [00:52:01] MCC: Because God knows, and this is what I say about suicides. God knows what went on in that heart and what suffering, inner suffering they've gone through that maybe they weren't able to verbalize. And so who am I to judge? JK: Right. MCC: And so when there's a suicide, God knows. And He knows and He loves us, and so I don't know what God does but I think He'd love them always. Does that make sense? JK: It makes perfect sense. [00:52:44] MCC: Ok. JK: It does. MCC: That's the gospel according to Carlo. (Laughter) JK: It makes a lot of sense. Did you initiate the prayer ministry at Ross Hall? [00:52:59] MCC: I don't have a prayer ministry at Ross. I did that when I was at the Mother House. JK: Oh, when you were at the Mother House. MCC: Yes. I noticed that on those slips. I didn't do it at Ross Hall, because when I came here I want everybody praying for me. JK: (Laughs) MCC: In fact, I'll have to tell you this. You know my older brother, Father Dan, made a lot of money and he's given scholarships to the university, endowed and scholarships and to different colleges and everything. And then when my brother was in the nursing home before he died in March everything was paid for by Father Dan's money. And then I said to the CPA, 'cause I taught Father Dan everything he knew about that. So, I called the CPA and said, "You know, I'm in a nursing home." (Laughter) �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 22 of 32 MCC: So, we found out just yesterday that we are getting a good amount of money… JK: Oh, good. MCC: …for my care here in the nursing home, because it's a new one. It's just been opened. It's beautiful. It's just lovely, and so I was just very… Yesterday I got the letter. JK: Oh, good. MCC: And I sent it Sister, and she's very excited because there's a lot of money coming. JK: Good. MCC: You know, we went back and how many years have I been…? And I don't mean to tout anything, but, you know, it paid for Father Phil, and I kept saying, "Why isn't it paying for me?" JK: Yes, right. MCC: I couldn't talk to the CPA so I said to her, "You talk to him." I gave her the number and she talked to him. And he said, "Ok. Make out a list of what you think it would cost if…" Ok. We're getting it. JK: Very good. [00:54:55] MCC: So, I figure, gosh, I taught him how to do bookkeeping, this brother of mine that didn't know what he was doing. He did fine with the bookkeeping, and every time I'd go home if his trial balance didn't mount (phonetic) I'd help him find it. But then when they started splitting stocks and doing all that he lost me, because I didn't study that. And so my younger brother who was living there at the time with him, he said, if you pardon the expression, he said, "We had to take the damn red book to Leo." (Laughter) MCC: But Leo straightened it all out. I figure he had it and he had always said that in his… Father Dan always said in his will I want to make sure that Father Phil and Sister are well taken care of, and so we are. JK: Oh, that's good. MCC: Very well taken care of. JK: So, you've lived in a community now for how many years? [00:56:00] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 23 of 32 MCC: Let's see. I think it's 65 next… I entered in '53 and that's when they started counting, so you figure it out. (Laughs) I need my machine. I think it's either 64… yes, I think it's 64 years. JK: Yes, that would be when it… MCC: But I came late. I was 27 when I entered. JK: Right. MCC: Because I had taught all those years. JK: Because you had taught before, right. And what has living in the community meant to you? [00:56:33] MCC: My community, our community, has been so good to us. I've never been refused a request—never. They provide for it even without my asking for it. JK: Oh, how nice. MCC: So, I've been very happy here. And, as I said, now in Ross Hall all I do is count my blessings. And this beautiful room that I have, it's on the inner court but I don't face the wall or the outside, and I like it because it's very conducive to prayer and contemplation, and it's beautiful. And they had these big, overstuffed chairs and my feet wouldn't touch the rug (phonetic) so they brought me a good straight-back chair. And then I have a reading machine. Thank God for that. JK: Oh, good. MCC: One of the Sisters, no, a woman at the university, her mother had macular degeneration, and so it's on loan from her. I've had it for a year-and-a-half. So, that's how I say my prayers. I put my book under… My brothers bought me a Breviary, a real Breviary that the priests say. So, I say my prayers on the machine in the morning and at night, and if I get a letter I put that under there. And when I got the letter from the CPA it was… (Laughs) JK: Oh, that's good. Right. MCC: Call Sister immediately. (Laughs) So thank God for that. So, see the blessings there are. Oh, yes. So, I do enjoy Ross Hall. JK: Does Kansas City have a radio station where they read Time magazine, The New York Times and all that kind of stuff? [00:58:23] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 24 of 32 MCC: I'm sure they might, but I have those, I don't know, books for the blind and things like that. You know I don't use those anymore. They sent me mystery books. JK: Oh, did they? MCC: Yes, at the beginning. We went through this great process of what do you like and all that, so I got mystery books. There's a knock on your door every whip-stitch and I'm forgetting who killed who. So, I thought no more mysteries. And so they sent me another one, which was very good—I enjoyed that—about dogs. There's a different story every day about dogs and that you could put it on silent for just a minute and then you would start it again. But you could go on with the dogs that way. And so more are coming in, and if I feel like I can use them I do it. But, you know, I enjoy more just sitting in my window looking out. JK: My mother had macular degeneration, and in St. Louis there is an order called Our Lady of the Snows, I think. [00:59:33] MCC: Probably, yes, uh-huh. JK: And so they have this service that you can sign up for and it's also very easy. It's just an onoff button. MCC: Oh, that's wonderful. JK: Yes, it is wonderful. And so they read the newspaper. I guess they read books. But mostly it's newspapers and magazines. MCC: Well, now, just this last weekend two friends came. He had written a book, and I did my best to advertise it for him in the churches and in the libraries, and I sent out letters and all kinds of things. And we didn't have an overwhelming response. But he's very pleased. And so today I got the… our communications person was there. She took a picture, because he donated a gorgeous tile plaque of Our Lady of Guadalupe. JK: Oh my goodness. MCC: And right after lunch today I went with Sister Lucy, our superior, and we decided where to put it. And it's so heavy that they're going to put a… I forgot. There's a word that they have to put it in. And they'll find the stud and everything, but it's going to be hung tomorrow. JK: Oh, great. MCC: It's beautiful. It's a tile. Yes, it's beautiful. But, anyway, that was very, very nice. And I'm glad that weekend is over 'cause I did a lot of work. And I had wanted more people to attend, but Pierre, who wrote the book said, "Sister, I would have been satisfied with 15." �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 25 of 32 JK: Oh, good. That's good. So, the community has changed so much over the years and one way it's changed is that people have left and not as many people are joining. What do you think is the future of the SCL? [01:01:28] MCC: Now it's my chance to tell you about Sister Rejane. When I was in the Mother House they called over from the vocation office and they said there are three young women here who want to enter as candidates. Would you be willing to take one of them and not mentor her, but just be a companion? Take her down to the dining room, and, you know, when you walk in there are 300 Sisters sitting there. And so, I said, "Oh, sure. I'd be glad to." Sister Rejane came over, and she came over every Thursday, every Thursday, every Thursday, every Thursday without fail. At the end of the year we were very good friends. And then she went to Denver and she emailed me, and those were the days when at least I could do a little email. And so then she came back to teach at the school. It's diagonally across the street. And she'd come over to see me every Thursday. But now, and this is what's interesting, and this answers your question, I think. Rejane is in Wisconsin, Racine, Wisconsin, working on a farm which has been what she's always wanted to do. And she sent me… well, there's a picture of her in one of our magazines with her arms around an alpaca and smiling. She's just so happy. And she calls me every Sunday night, so I have the picture on my desk. It's in here some place. And so then when she came to see me she brought me a little alpaca made with the actual fur of the alpaca. JK: Oh, how cute. [01:03:10] MCC: I think I have it in there somewhere. JK: Here it is. MCC: Yes, it is. And they have one white alpaca, and he's very unusual. His name is Leo, but this one's name, well, the real alpaca in the picture is Gaylord. So, I named this Pietro. That's Peter in Italian, Peter, and it's standing up there, and look how happy she is. Now that's the answer. Ted Dunn in that LWCR magazine that they put out periodically, the last article in the latest issue he interviewed a number of different orders where the Sisters were all young all over the country and found out what do the Sisters want. Are they happy with the…? He found out a lot of the younger Sisters were angry because when they entered, you know, the old people were angry too. And they didn't like that. And what did they want then he asked. We want to do what we feel the Lord is calling us to do as His mission, and that's exactly what Rejane is doing up in Racine, Wisconsin. JK: That's wonderful. [01:04:26] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 26 of 32 MCC: And her parents have been up there and her family. She has a brother and his family has been up there, but look how happy she is. JK: Yes. MCC: How can you not… And then we have another Sister Melissa. She came to see me. She entered quite a while ago, so she's a little older than Rejane, but she came and I hadn't seen her for a long, long time. You know what she's doing? She's in New York working with trafficked women. JK: Oh, my goodness. MCC: Now, that's where our community is going now. And the help that they're getting is through the confederation of Sisters of Charity because they meet together. And when all these young Sisters get together... Someone asked Rejane how could you find out about that? She said, "One of the Sisters in the federation told me that…" See. JK: Interesting, right. [01:05:21] MCC: And so that's how our community is going to go on by the young Sisters doing these various unusual things. Like Sister Vicki is building that down in Leavenworth where the poor people can come and get food. JK: Oh, food pantry. MCC: Yes, that's right. See, they're doing things that people... that they feel in the heart, their heart, that the Lord is asking them to do. JK: Right. [01:05:47] MCC: Not sit around and pray like we used to do. And that's where it's going. And so, if it dies out, if our community dies out, we'll have the confederation. Young Sisters get together and they can help one another and spread the word. JK: Right. MCC: Isn't that beautiful? JK: So, they have their community… MCC: Yes, that's right. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 27 of 32 JK: …even though they might be geographically separated. [01:06:11] MCC: That's right. That's exactly right. And now Rejane is coming home on the 9th of July, 'cause that's when our big meeting starts here when they decide and all that kind of thing. And she'll come in and see me and I'll hug her and cry and cry when she leaves, but that's ok. JK: So, you wanted to tell about some of the things that you brought. [01:06:33] MCC: All right. You know that book right there is the book that I tried to help my friend sell. Over the weekend he was here. And this is true. I didn't know this part of his life, because we knew him in Casper. He was very helpful to Mama in helping her... When I went home to take care of her my brother bought us a microwave, but there's no room in our small kitchen which is our home right here. You see that. There's a picture of our home. See how tiny it is and the front and the back. JK: That's so cute. MCC: And it's just really tiny. But he came in and built a shelf for us and fixed the TV. Mama had the TV over here so she didn't use this half of the room. He came in, put up wire and put the TV over here, opened up… So, he's just done a wonderful… our family in every way. He's very artistic. But this is the story of his life. And he had been at this boy's ranch in New Mexico when the priest was abusing the boys. JK: Oh, that's awful. MCC: But he didn't know it at the time. JK: It's called Secrets of the Blue Door. [01:07:46] MCC: And the blue door is where the boys… Nobody, nobody but this priest would go through that door and the boys that he allowed to. And little by little Pierre kept track, and that was his saving grace. He wrote it down, everything. And then one of the boys ran away and froze that night, and Pierre had to go out and find him and he dug a grave and buried the boy. So, Pierre started keeping track of everything that went on. And he finally realized that the boys were being abused. So, even on the QT he would… He was on the staff there. He'd take the boys fishing and they'd go for a walk. And he'd ask little questions and pretty soon things began to appear that were not good. And so this is the story that we never knew of Pierre. And he wrote it and I tried to help him sell his book. JK: And this is Pierre Nichols. [01:08:58] MCC: Nichols. And he was here just over the weekend. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 28 of 32 JK: Oh, he was? MCC: Yes. Yes. And I had sent pictures and posters out and sent letters to 52 people. You can get it on Amazon.com. But it's wonderful. But it ended up good because three of the boys when they grew to be men found Pierre's name on the internet, and they called him up. And they said, "Can we come see you?" He was thrilled to have them come. They said would you help us testify? We're going to sue the State of New Mexico, and he said yes. So, he did. He had a seven-hour deposition in front of all these lawyers and his saving grace was he had documented every single thing that happened. And my brother, Father Phil, is in the book sort of. When this one boy died in the snow when Pierre left the rancho, the boys house way down in New Mexico, and he went up to Wyoming and he met my brother. And he didn't know my brother but my brother said, "Have you eaten anything?" And he said, "No." So, he said, "Come on. Let's go to the Village Inn." And he told him about the boy that died. Father Phil went out and he bought a piece of granite, a nice stone, and had the boy's name and everything put in it. And then Pierre went back to New Mexico and buried the boy and built a fence around it. And so, the boys did sue, and they did win because they were men at that time. They were like 30 and 40 years old. And Pierre didn't get anything, but he said I didn't want anything. So, that's the Secret of the Blue Door and that's Pierre, and that's the young… well, he's not young anymore. He's in his seventies. And I didn't know that part of his life. And it's hard, isn't it? And a lot of people didn't want to read it because who wants to talk about that? JK: I know. MCC: But this happens and it's still happening in many instances. So, that's what I did over the weekend. JK: Ok, and then you told the story of the… MCC: That's my general. JK: That's your Brigadier General star. [01:11:37] MCC: Oh, I didn't tell you about this. When I worked at the hospital, I was on the 10th floor which is all private rooms, but I was also on the 9th floor which is Urology. And there was a young man who was a doctor and he was just an ace in everything he did, just right on target. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 29 of 32 My mother had her kidney removed. I went to him one day and I said, "Doctor, my Mama is going to have a kidney… would you come and talk to me about it? What do I expect…?" He said, "I'll meet you in the doctor's office." So, we came to the doctor's office and for almost an hour he wrote down all the things. If it were cancer, if it was this, you'd use (phonetic) this. So, we became kind of friends. And then I left the hospital to come here, and so I would write to him, and I'd say, "Oh, gosh, our campus is beautiful," and it is, isn't it? Beautiful I said. And then I'd talk about something else. So, one day he said, "How about I come and do a picture book on your Mother House?" JK: Oh, how nice. [01:12:43] MCC: So, he came and he did a picture book on all… yes. If you want to look at it... He wouldn't publish it until every Sister okayed her picture, and one of the complaints was Sister Mary Carlo's picture is in it too often. JK: (Laughs) MCC: But I was the one that showed him around, you know. Some of these Sisters have died, but this is the book. And it's on the internet now, so, if you know how to get it. It's Dr. William Pelander. Turn to the very end. FD: What year did it come out? [01:13:19] MCC: It says back here. I think it's '56. See, that was the doctor at that time. He is a little bit older now. Does it say here when it came out? Oh, here it does in the front. Oh, here. See, that's his name. William Pelander, M.D. FD: 2010, so pretty recently. MCC: It is, yes, it is. And so I was visiting at that time so I took him to the V.A. and I took him to the river. I took him to wherever I went and there's a picture of me when I took… you know, I visit the little black lady down here at the apartments right on this street, and he came with me. There's a picture of me giving her communion, although you can just see her and my hand in community. Like I said, he wouldn't publish any picture until the Sisters okayed it. And the first complaint was we all look so old. (Laughter) MCC: I said, "We are old." JK: (Laughs) �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 30 of 32 MCC: Well, anyway, God love him. He went back to Denver. He's from Denver. And he, what do you call it, brush-stroked all those pictures. JK: Did he really? (Laughs) [01:14:34] MCC: He did. He did. You can't see our wrinkles real good. He did. It was months. JK: That's hilarious. MCC: And then finally it came out and it got the ok. Isn't that something? We were so old. JK: That's very funny. MCC: But anyway, that was important. That was an important thing in my… when I met Dr. Pelander. Then after Mama had her surgery and the kidney came out, my brother looked after her because he was at the church there. And then so I'd say, "How's Mama doing?" And then I'd catch doctor and I'd say… we'd be joking and laughing about something and I'd say, "Can I ask you something about Mama?" Doctor mode. JK: Oh, funny. MCC: He went right into doctor mode. And so that was a nice relationship that we had. And this is not me. This is Sister Katherine (phonetic) (inaudible) and she was… That was her right in front of the Blessed Sacraments. That's where she prayed in the big chapel. But that's the Mother House book. JK: Thank you. [01:15:41] MCC: And every time people would come, my guests or anything, I'd put it out, and so when you go to the library check it out. It's Sister Mary Carlo, Sister Mary Carlo, Sister Mary Carlo. (Laughter) MCC: Anyway, I thought, well, I'll bring that because that's part of my show and tell. And the little vases that Pierre made. Pierre is a grand master three times in New Mexico in making pottery, beautiful gourds this big. He studied that Indian Mimbres and he learned. This little thing, guess how much. This is a gourd. How much do you think this would sell for? I asked him when he was here. JK: I don't know. [01:16:30] MCC: Sixty-five dollars. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 31 of 32 JK: Really? MCC: Yes, really. 'Cause you'd have to go in, you'd have to dry it. You have to (inaudible). And he has to wear a mask. JK: Oh, my gosh. MCC: But he builds great big ones. And so he won grand master, not master. That's one step. But he's grand master three times. So, he stopped that. Now he's writing books. (Laughs) JK: Well, thank you so much. We appreciate this so much. MCC: I'm glad I brought out my show and tell because… JK: I'm so glad you did. MCC: Thank you. Thank you for listening, both of you. FD: It was a great story, great life. JK: It was really wonderful. MCC: Ok. That's fine. JK: Thank you so much. MCC: I enjoyed doing it too. And I hope it wasn't too long. JK: No. FD: No, we have plenty of time. MCC: Ok. All right. JK: This is perfect. [01:17:21] MCC: All right, thank you. FD: Thank you very much. JK: Thank you. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Carlo Colibraro Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 27, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 13, 2017 Page 32 of 32 MCC: All right. Thank you very much. ### � https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/226d2e95839dc23e9786a0862a4aafae.mp3 501fa6f8de712ebcf352d3ede49ad873 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Colibraro, S. Mary Carlo Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kenamore, Jane Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MPEG Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:07:10 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Colibraro, S. Mary Carlo, Oral History, 6/27/2017 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Family; Italy; Teaching; AIDS Ministry; Pastoral Ministry Description An account of the resource Sister Mary Carlo speaks quite a bit about her family history as both parents were immigrants from Italy. She also talks about how she encountered the SCLs and joined the Community. She discusses her 27 years teaching but how it was the creation of the Caring Ministry and her work with AIDS patients in the 1980's which were really meaningful. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Colibraro, S. Mary Carlo; Kenamore, Jane Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/27/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Colibraro, S. Mary Carlo; Kenamore, Jane Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1926-2017 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Education Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/35463252038943ca2a4531d6977fc458.PNG 09e1ec28fd69a75dd62f621027604071 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/af4815eef8b8903abfc9fe9352436bf3.pdf ed9a084e8c32c85842c249c7bae48e3e PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Rose Dolores Hoffelmeyer Transcribed January 18, 2021 RDH: Today is a national holiday, and so I'm taking advantage of this feast of Saint Rose of Lima in order to send this tape message to you. Sister Regina returns to the states tomorrow for meetings with the council and also for a visit with her family. And since she's going to San Diego to visit her brother who is sick, she offered to take something back to Bernice. And I thought, "Well, what can I send?" I've sent ceramics, I've given things that are golden, and --I don't know what else-- and things of silver. And so I thought, well, maybe she would just like to have a conversation with me, although it's going to be one-sided. I hope that I don't bore you too much. What I thought I might do is share with you a little bit of the place in which I work and am working right now, and some of the activities of the sisters with whom I work. And because last year was such a hectic year in so many ways and really historical for our community here, especially the community here in Santa Julia, and I just finished typing a long report of the year, a history of the year for the community. I thought maybe you too would like to hear some of what went on here. It's all past history now, and so I feel a little bit more free to talk about some of the things that happened. [00:01:34] I'm living and working here in Piura, which is the third largest city in Peru. Although it's a little over half a million people, the city itself and the barrios that surround it, this seems like nothing in comparison with Lima, for instance, which is the grandest city or the biggest city in Peru, and has some 18 million people in it today--in it and the barrios that surround it. But nevertheless, Piura, although it is a pretty good sized city, retains much of the flavor and the feel of a smaller city. Much of its population has come in the last 10-15 years, when many of the people from the Sierra have come to the coast looking for a better life. Unfortunately, they don't find much of a better life, but at least it's warmer and they can still subsist. Although, in this terrible economic crisis, it's very difficult for them. Many of them live in the surrounding area, as some of you saw in the television program that Francis told me about. Many of them live in straw huts or huts made of woven mats of straw. And this is the first stage, they invade a section of the terrain around the city and lay claim to the land. Sometimes they're driven off by the police, but that's more common in Lima than it has been here. If they can maintain their time there, I think it's for a year and are not driven off then they can lay claim legitimately to the land. And they begin to improve their house little by little as they can. [00:03:38] One of the places that I work, it's in a pueblo joven, or in a barrio in the northern part of the city—on the way out of the city—the last one on the route to Chulacanas. I passed it many times before when I was working in Chalaco, and of course never entered, but this area is one of the sections that has grown up in the last 17 years. Many our family members or close relations that have come close together, they go in and and set up their little houses, and then little by little �they improve them. One of the families that I've come to know quite well and that maybe may have a couple of daughters that will eventually enter the community and are working with me as catechists right now, this family had been living in Callao, which is the port city of Lima, had apparently had a pretty nice house, and the man had permanent work. But because his mother was alone and had responsibilities for a granddaughter, when the mother had died and the father kind of disappeared, this family opted to leave everything they had there in Lima and come back to this part of the country. They're living there in this little house, which is still constructed of many different things. Part of it is a brick. [00:05:32] The reason I stopped the tape for a minute is that the garbage truck was passing by. And you could probably hear the clanging of the bell as it approached and knew it would be very distracting, if nothing else. As it got closer to the house, as I was saying, this family lives in this house constructed of cartons, of boxes of refrigerators or whatever, of brick. It has pieces of tela that serve to divide the different rooms. And this is a better house than many of the people have to live in. They're improving their situation a little bit. The man has worked. He is a kind of traveling salesman. I don't know exactly what he is selling, but I know that he accosted me one day when I was in the Mercado as he was entering the stores taking orders for something or other. And so this family has improved their house little by little and added portions on to it. Many of them started out with just one little room in one little shack, and that's how they grow. What impresses me of this family is their interest in getting an education for their children. I think that's pretty true of many of their families. It's discouraging for us, because we know that many of them, even though they get a better education, would not be able to get better jobs. But when I was in the house most recently, one of the curtains was open between the little sala, or sitting room that you enter, and the next room, and I could see that they have a bookcase with at least part of a set of encyclopedias and some dictionaries and other things. They help their children. They have three who have graduated from high school now, the boy is studying in a tecnico, and the oldest girl really would like to enter the community. Was talking with us yesterday about it. And the second girl who just finished her high school last year, had earlier asked me if it would be possible to have some kind of experience with us. She has visited in the house before, and we're sending her this Wednesday for a three month experience in the center of formation in Chulacanas. Hopefully, she too will make her decision for whatever state of life that she wants to follow. This course in Chulacanas is geared to help them know more about the three states of mind and to improve their sense of dignity as women in the church. [00:08:52] It was interesting for me last week when I went to visit the the priest who is in charge of this pueblos jovenes in the northern part of the city. And his parish is in one of the wealthier sections of the city called Miraflores. He really discounts the Catholics of that section, even though they come to mass, have the children baptized and so on. But aside from that, they really don't make any contribution to the church and don't have any desire to work in the programs of the church. And he has a great belief great interest in the people of the pueblos jovenes, but he's really �divided because he has his parish. He's also a chaplain of the huge hospital of the state. He also has one to at least four or five of these pueblos jovenes, and then he goes out into Campo with his catechists to sections to help teach the people who are living farther out. So, and he's not a young man. So, he's really divided. Yesterday he was telling the people at mass in Los Meninos that from now on, he would not be able to say mass every Sunday there. He would have to divide his time between there and Primavera, because the priest who had been helping him, the Jesuits who'd been helping him, had been moved from the city. And so he would try to offer mass at Los Merinos every other Sunday, except for those weeks when he had to give his time to marriage encounter programs. Or if, for instance, when the bishop is planning to come soon to visit his parish, he won't be able to come. And it turned out it will probably be another month before he visits Los Meninos. But when I was visiting with him, and I had a real sense of his confidence in the people in the barrios, what he was saying to me is, those people really have nothing but their faith, that they really cling to their faith, and they do more in spreading the word of God than these people here around my parish ever think of doing. And I can't count on these people for hardly anything. Sad, isn't it, but it's a testimony. He said, they have everything they want. And they don't have much interest in, in the people who don't have anything. [00:10:49] The Archdiocese of Piura y Tumbes is located here in the northern part of Peru, and has a population of close to one million in total. About two years ago, the Archbishop finally got an auxiliary bishop to help him with the work, especially in the area of Tumbes. And Monsignor Augusto lives there in Tumbes and is in charge mostly of the work there. The people in Piura, as in many parts of Latin America, although they're about 98% nominally Roman Catholic, suffer a great lack of faith formation and education in their faith. Of course, this is due in large part to the scarcity of priests and religious serving their needs. I read some time ago that about 60% of the religious working in Peru still are foreigners, and remember, I told you in Chulacanas that was very evident. There were about 14 different countries represented there. In this area, there's a great scarcity of priests. There are about 37 priests serving a population of, as I said, about a million people. And many of those priests are, are concentrated in in the cities. There are about 11 or 12 parishes here in Piura itself, in the city of Piura, and also a seminary, and although there are only about three priests who actually give their time almost completely to the work there, there are others who who are engaged in doubled ministries, teaching in the seminary, maybe acting as officials of the Caritas, which is the food distribution program that's International, but also have large parishes to take care of. Because of the lack of priests and religious to help the people, to instruct the people, and because of the terrible economic situation that has existed here in the country for some years now, the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the evangelical groups are trying to take advantage of the absence of the clergy and religious and are coming in and just bombarding the people, often giving large sums of earth, large amounts of food, attracting them with programs, setting up mini factories or helping the people in various ways, all of which is very good. But it's also almost a means of buying them away from the traditional church. And because many of the people have faith that is rooted in knowledge, and because of �their great need, real need for food and for clothing, etc., many of them have turned to these sects and other religions that have come into that the territory. [00:15:15] There are many Catholics who want to help to combat this, as you know, I've been working with what is called an evangelization program. Evangelizacion Dos Mil, or Year 2000. But the people have been crying for help, information of their own faith, because they themselves often don't have sufficient knowledge to answer the questions of the Catholic faithful, were really incisive, bombarded by the Protestants that are coming in. So one of the things that I'm doing is working with a program that the Archbishop has mandated for the Catholics who really want to improve their knowledge of the faith. It's an interparochial program, to give instruction in the Bible and in the realities of the faith or the doctrines of the faith. We just started it about two weeks ago. And we're hoping that each year, we'll be able to add other courses. We have an outline that goes for three years. I think that will really be necessary, or I hope that it will be necessary, to repeat these two introductory courses that we're giving this year, this August, from August to December, that we'll be able to give these courses another time next year, so that the people who have heard about them now, and who want to enter them, will be able to start the program at that time. I don't think it will be too late. And since the first two courses this year are introductory, and we'll continue with the introductory courses for the New Testament, and also for other doctrines in the faith next year, I think if we repeat those four courses a number of times then we'll have a really strong base of Catholics who can help their parishes. And always the major problem in realizing a program like this is lack of money. Although we don't need much of it, we do need to pay the priest who are giving extra time in this program and help to pay for the electricity that we use at nights because, often enough, we have to depend upon a motor or a generator, because the light or electricity in the city is so unreliable. And the gasoline is very expensive. We want to buy Bibles, and the new catechisms. I have trouble lots of times going back and forth from English to Spanish. But we want to buy some of those books and sell them at minimal price to the people, so that they will have them in their hands when the priests are teaching them. And also so that they can use them as points of reference later on. [00:18:45] So, one of the things that we're doing is applying to programs in Germany and in some of the places in the States to help us to gain some funding. I'm going to use some of the money that Mary Ancilla sent this past December, and that I still have on hand to help buy some of those books. Eventually I'll be able to pay back most of that money. Although, depending on how much they cost, because the people who are coming often are people who either have retired from their work, or maybe are unemployed looking for work, but want to give their time and helping the church, or they're mothers of families who go out to evangelize on weekends. And they certainly don't have money, because they can hardly put food on their tables. So, you might want to keep that in your prayers, this program in your prayers if you would, so that we can do all that we can for Catholics who can help their fellow Catholics, and from there, help the church to stay strong among its people. [00:20:09] �Here in the house, I live with an interesting group of people. It's sometimes hard for us to gather together because of the diversity of the programs that we're engaged in. Janet and Ruth work in a program that is archdiocesan, Pastoral de Salud, it's an office that has been formed and is meant to help the people be trained in the basic principles of health. Janet had her year of sabbatical about three, four years ago, got an additional degree--she is a nurse--got an additional degree in international health, and so has contacts with international health programs and came back knowing very well that you can't practice the 20th or 21st century medicine of the United States here in Peru. She's a great advocate of natural medicine, and she has organized promontories de salud, or promoters of health, in almost all the parishes here in Piura, and in many of the parishes in the Archdiocese. She also is in charge of programs that work with the food kitchens in many of the smaller caserios, and some of the areas here in Piura itself. What else does she do? Also, this program is gaining some funding to help what they call small working programs. [00:22:06] One of the things that she and Ruth are really excited about is that a group of women in one of the really poor areas were able to find us here in Piura and have been trying, wanted desperately to have a panaderio, or bakery, so they could make bread for the area and sell it for as cheap as they could. And they got the money from the state so that they could buy an horno, oven, and fermentation, whatever you call it. It's a big container. And they bought--one of the women here in Piura that has a fabrico, or a factory, that works in metal helped them in making the stands, and tables, and things that they needed, and charged them cost value really for what they did. And she also helped him a lot transporting things in her truck. And so that program is off and running now. There are about 12 women who work in it, and they're now in the process of taking turns on a three shift basis. Some of them prepare the batter. Others come back after it's raised and form the bread and get it baked, and the others come in to do the selling and merchandising. That's been a successful program. One of the other programs is the taller, or the workshop, that makes those silver articles that I have sent to Bernice and Francis, and they have had success too. They now have a contract with somebody in Argentina who buys the silver products and sells them abroad. So that's off and running and is giving employment to eight or 10 men there. [00:24:19] ..like in two different areas where the men make brooms and sell them in the cities, have contracts with some of the different cities around about. So they will buy them for the people who clean the streets, and that's also a working project. To the east of us, near Sullana, where there is a lot of fruit grown, they have set up a workshop or a factory to make marmalade of different fruits. And I see that it's being sold in various stores here in the city. And I think their hope is to export it to other areas too. So these are very important projects, because although they each one only gets work to about eight or 10 persons, it's an incentive for other people to try and to set up some of their other programs too, and to see that it is possible for a group of people to come together and do something to help themselves and help the people around them. One of the �projects that was not successful, and the group had great hope for, was a carpintero, or a carpenter shop for young men in one of the barrios here in Piura. And they started out again with about eight or 10 young men, and they were able to help them by the first wood that they would need, and then they got funding from one of the state programs to construct the house or the brick building in which they would work, and to put the techo on, the roof on. And they worked through all that. They had a professional carpenter hired to to teach these eight or 10 young men the profession. But unfortunately, little by little they lost interest. One of the things that they started out to make as their principal project was to make coffins, wooden coffins. Because the high mortality rate, there's always a demand for these coffins. But they didn't have a good method of publicizing their work, and they had a whole succession of problems. The man who was hired to teach them got discouraged with them and quit his job. And then they got another carpenter, and he worked for a while with them, then he got discouraged with them, and then they had to get somebody else. And then there was a robbery, and some of the tools were stolen. And anyhow, it was kind of a disaster. There are only two of the young men left, and they're in another taller learning from two men who have set up their own taller. But Ruth was really discouraged with this project. [00:27:49] Because of the nature of their programs in this office of salud, the two of them, Ruth and Janet have to do a lot of follow up work. And they visit all of these groups of women and men who are promoters of health throughout the diocese once a month. So that takes a lot of time in itself. They also visit the talleres and try to give spirit and life to them. They helped organize retreats. That's what they're doing today in Tumbes, which is a good six to eight hour trip away from here. They'll return about the middle of the night to Piura, and hopefully they'll be able to get some rest. One of the things that I have said to them is they often work weekends and days like today which are very honest, that they don't really take their time off during the week following, and I think they're going to burn themselves out. [00:28:55] And as I've said, I work with the office of evangelization, helping to give some guidance to the Peruvians who were left in charge when our sister Elena Mack, who was the director of the program left last year when she was elected to our council in the United States. And so although I don't know much about the courses that they offer, I've only made two of them. They respect my advice, and I help with some of the planning and I have to hold down the prices because we don't have much money to operate on. Before Sister left, they had received a good sized grant from the German bishops for this program, and we have used up the first part of that money and have not yet received the second quarter. [00:30:02] These programs really have given life and spirit to many of the people, and it's these people in many of the parishes who are now asking for the courses to deepen their faith. Courses in the Bible, courses in doctrine, and things like that. But I think that the two programs work hand in hand, and so I feel good about that. The other Sisters and then also Peruvians, sister Trini, who is �a very good friend of mine, and who worked with me in Chalaco earlier, is a full time student in a school to train teachers, that kind of a normal school here in Peru. She's in her second part of her third year. It's been great joy for me to see her growth and to see how she has really taken a liking for her studies. Although they're really demanding, too. She also helps a little bit with catechesis, and on the weekends, she goes with me to Los Meninos sometimes, and she also works on Saturdays for an hour and a half or so in a program for young people in the parish of Santa Rosa. [00:31:28] Mabel is a young woman who is in her second year of vows and works as the person in charge of the catechetical program for First Communion in Santa Rosa and in the two barrios that are attached to it here in Santa Julio and also in Nueva Esperanza this year, she also opted to teach about nine hours a week, something like that, in one of the secondary schools. It's a great contrast for her because this school, whose name is Mater Admirabilis and has a large statue that those of us who went to convent of the Sacred Heart know very well. This school is in a rather rich section of the town. And the girls who are in it are pretty spoiled, and really hadn't had much training in their religion. The woman that Mabel succeeded as teacher there, teacher of religion, I think was teaching more psychology and I don't know what else but not very much religion or her version of religion, more than the real thing. So Mabel has had a pretty tough time there this year. Of course, the students have resisted her demands that they put in some time. And she's trying to get them interested in helping out in their parishes. And of course, they haven't ever had that kind of an experience. Pretty soon she's going to have a retreat for them. And she asked the Office of Evangelization to help her with that, so it will be interesting to see if that has any real results. [00:33:26] This year, we also have living with us right now, a novice who is in her year of experience. She is a technical nurse, not an RN, and was a little bit older when she entered the community. And she's also going to be working with Janet and Ruth for pastoral salud. So she just came the end of July, and will be with us until December. Hopefully she will make her vows in March. When I returned last year, one of the first things that Janet told me about was that she accepted in January, I think it was, to be secretary general of Caritas. The Archbishop had asked her to take charge of it because there were apparently a good many corrupt activities going on within that organization, and he wanted to do some housecleaning. First of all he wanted to make sure that some of the accusations he was hearing were true. So she accepted the charge. That led to various difficult situations for her. One of the things that happened to her was that on the 23rd of May, before I came back, she was picked up by the Police and taken for an interrogation, by the National Police of Peru. The charge was that she was involved in siphoning off some of the [inaudible] from a truck that was bringing them from Caritas in Lima to Caritas Peru that several of the bags of wheat had disappeared. Well, she, of course was not responsible, but they questioned her for two hours and denied her the presence of lawyer during that time, so it was a very scary experience for her. And that wasn't the end of it, of course. They brought suit against �her in the court of law. And that hung over her head, because it was constantly put off the trial, or the hearings were constantly put off. The lawyers that she was able to get didn't seem to afford her much help. Finally, our superior here, she went to see the bishop again, and one of the things that he said was that she needed to know that for sure the people who take positions of authority are always going to have to suffer. Well, she did have to suffer a lot and we suffered with her, the anxieties of that program. One of the things she said was that she'd never noted until then how many times the Bible makes references to the state to justice until that period of time, and that so many of her times of prayer, when she was using the Bible, she came across these references. [00:36:57] As you will know, the Sendero Luminoso or radical communist group, they have been trying to take over the country. They're very active and very violent in many parts of the country. Things have quieted down substantially since the capture of Abimael Guzman last September. But until that time, there was a lot of activity, increasing activity here in the Piura area. Right before I came back, the ex alcalde and a professor of Piura was murdered as he was leaving his classes one night. And this caused a great deal of consternation, there have been a number of police who were killed also. In July of last year, we ourselves here in the house began to notice that we seem to be under observance too. There is a football field or a soccer field across from us, and frequently, there seem to be people on the platform there, observing us at night, or as we walked to mass or came back. We felt like we were being observed by some people, some young people who were on the corners. So we always try to go two and two. About the middle of that month, or the 20th or thereabouts, we received some pamphlets or flyers inside of our gateway one morning urging us to observe the declared strike of the Sendero Luminoso for the 24th 25th, I think it was, of July. We, of course, didn't intend to do that. And many other people were not observing it either. [00:39:04] On the morning of the 25th, it was a Saturday morning, several of us were still in bed, gratefully, about 630 in the morning. But we were awakened very rapidly with the explosion of a handmade or a house made bomb at our gateway. Janet and Ruth we're having breakfast in the dining room and were protected from flying grass because of the walls that separated them. But often enough, some of them would have been emerging to go buy bread or something in the morning. The bomb, although it was a small one, was strong enough to blow out the windows in the two rooms that faced the plant in the first floor, and some of those where the door that opens onto the chapel area up above. One of the sisters called the other house on a walkie talkie. We don't have a telephone here in Santa Julio, and Regina brought back walkie talkie so that we can communicate between the two houses. And the sisters there called for the police to come. But afterwards we, at least I, really laughed about what we were doing. Almost immediately, Janet and I grabbed brooms and and Ruth to start cleaning up. We said it was such a typical North American attitude. We started cleaning up the glass and sweeping and cleaning in general. And the people who had gathered outside the wall in the gateway said, "Madres, don't clean that up, �the police will want to see how it was and they will they'll want to investigate all the parts of it." [00:41:03] We were all very grateful that nobody was hurt. And although it was a cause of tension for us in the next couple of months, because we didn't know if there would be another attack of some kind. And we took extra precautions when we were going out to try not to be out at night. And certainly if we, because we have to go to mass in Santa Rosa, which is about four or five blocks away, and come back together because it often is dark by the time we get back. We never knew exactly why the attack was directed against us, but I think most of us thought and still think that it was because Janet was still in charge of Caritas and that this program does a lot to help the poor. And Sendero has always tried to disrupt programs that try that serve the poor because they want to cause greater animosity or greater discomfort among the poor so that they will join them in their rebellion. Some other people thought that perhaps it was because Susanna, who was living with us at this time, was teaching in one that was teaching in a college, or a High School close by here in Santa Julio, and that the Sendero didn't like the influence that she was having with the young people because they were also struggling to try to gain their attention, to gain them as supporters of their cause. But whatever may have been the cause, it was it was certainly a cause of tension for all of us in the months that succeeded. And some kind of funny things happened. One night we were in the [inaudible], praying together, it was again a Saturday night, and we were sharing the scriptures. And somewhere in the vicinity in the street, somebody set off a discharge. It may have been like a firecracker which they use often enough for celebrations. Or it may have been somebody shooting a gun, who knows, but all of us dived for safety in one way or the other. [00:43:25] Nothing much more happened as far as we were concerned until September. As you all know, on September the 12th this Guzman was arrested by the police and so the President of the Republic had called for a national day of thanksgiving on the 24th of September, which is also the feast of Our Lady of Mercy. And had asked that Peruvians put out the Peruvian flag to demonstrate that it is the only flag that has a right to fly in Peru. So I bought material and we had made up a flag of the country. And that morning I put it on a standard flying from the balcony of the second story. Meanwhile, we'd planned to go to Ayabaca for a kind of past time and the sisters had planned that before I came back, but I had a bad cold and so I decided to stay at home because Ayabaca's a very cold area and I didn't want to travel for eight nine hours and then be in the cold and come back worse. So I was going to be here by myself and Maria was visiting from Chalaco at the time and she stayed with me, and the night of the 24th we went to mass in Nuevo Esperanza and when we returned to our surprise and horror we found some other pamphlets of Sendero inside of our gate. So she called Regina on the walkie talkie, and Regina called the police. And because she didn't have a car at the time, the other Sister was out in the barrios, working still with prayer groups. She asked the police to come by the house and pick us up so �that we wouldn't stay here overnight. But we waited and waited and nobody came, so finally she came in a taxi cab. We'd called a second time to say the police had not come. [00:45:33] Gratefully, nothing materialized from that warning. They were unhappy with us, of course, that we were participating or upholding the state, what they called the ancient regime. Kind of sounds like the French Revolution, doesn't it. Shortly after that, the group that works against terrorism, a place that was specially formed to work against terrorism, picked up a number of leaders of Sendero here in Piura and in the northern part of the country, including three from the barrios directly around us from Santa Julio and Nuevo Esperanza, one of whom was a professor and one of whom was a person who worked in an office where he had access to a mimeograph. And with that, really, things quieted down a great deal. Piura has had almost no activities of Sendero, although some of the outlying districts including some of the pueblos there close to Chalaco had seen activity of Sendero in recent months. But the police are slowly but surely doing a mop of activity. [00:46:52] One of our great concerns right now is that some of the people who are being accused of being Senderos are not guilty. In fact, one of the priests from the Archdiocese here is in the jail in one of the cities south and west of here, waiting trial accused of being a terrorist. His brother earlier had been picked up and accused. And the accusation against this priest is that... The mentality of the government, in this year is that anyone who even helps the families of those who are accused of terrorism are themselves terrorists. They call them members of the group. And they support or have help. And they picked up lawyers who have defended the rights of the people to have a fair trial. They have picked up teachers and others who have picked up collections to help families in need. This all makes for a very difficult situation, as you can imagine, because we all certainly want to see the terrorists picked up, but we also want to see justice done. The Office of peace and justice for the Archdiocese is very busy trying to help determine who seem to be innocent and trying to help to develop cases in support of them, but it's a very difficult job. Just the other day, the nephew of this Bishop of Tumbes was picked up in the headlines here in our papers and certainly in Lima, who was picked up in Lima as a terrorist. And of course, in the paper itself, it named the Bishop as his uncle... [00:49:03] ...and convicted of being a terrorist. But while he was in prison, this Bishop had denounced the government authorities for torturing him. And so it is a difficult situation in the country. I felt really badly for the bishop. They also thought maybe this publicity isn't all so bad because so many families are suffering like injustices, and at least they know that not even a bishop is immune to accusations or to calumny because of the activities of members of his family. [00:49:57] One of the things that has struck me as strange during the time of tension, and much more so now is that with all of this life goes on, almost as usual. We eat, we sleep, we work, the sun is �still shining, birds are still flying and singing. And it all makes for an atmosphere of unreality. Because we know that while everything seems to be very peaceful and quiet and going very well here, in some parts of the country, there was very great violence. Last week, there was an attack on some indigenous or Indian peoples of the Amazon area that had collaborated with the government. And Sendero killed about 58 of them, went from village to village. Now the federal forces or the state forces are in trying to capture them. And we know that there's a lot of injustice being done on both sides. One of the things that Peru is saying, in fact, de Cuellar, who was the Secretary General of the United Nations, is living back here right now, denounced Amnesty International, because they're always very quick to draw attention to injustices of the government but say almost nothing about what Sendero is doing. Janet, on the other hand, feels very strongly [inaudible] government and she suspects them of almost everything and so it makes a lot of uncertainty in the country. I'm sure that our views represent what's going on in a throughout the country. [00:52:10] Now I'd like to share with you one of the funnier story stories of the year. As I said, things go on, life continues regardless of what is going on in the political scene. And last year, in the end of September, the first part of October, Esther, who lived in Chalaco, was to be operated and was operated in the clinic of Roma, which is a private clinic here in Piura. And some of the sisters in Piura had decided to take turns staying nights with her because the clinic was understaffed. And this particular day of the first of October, Ruth left the house and went to the clinic. But as she got off the bus, she stepped into a pothole, of which there are a great many. She fell very hard, and was hardly able to get up but did so. And fortunately, there was a young man passing whom she knew. And she called him to give her some help. So first of all, she sat on a bench for a little bit. And then with his help, she walked to the clinic which was in the same block. There she asked the receptionist to go up to the second floor and to tell the persons who were staying with us there that there was a sister down below looking for them and they should come down. Julia, a novice, and Trini went downstairs and found Ruth suffering a great deal. She could hardly work and she had scraped her arm, but it was her hip that was bothering her the most. And of course she couldn't go upstairs. And so they call the other house and asked for one of the other sisters to come. So both Regina and Donna Jean went down, Donna Jean to stay with Esther and Regina to take Ruth to another clinic to see if they could find a doctor who would take care of her, examine her. [00:54:32] Regina went to look for a taxi. And you'd have to know the condition of many of the cars about right here. We all laughed one day when one of the taxistas said with horror that he had heard that they throw away cars in the United States. And that's true. The cars that they throw away up there many of them I'm sure land down here and keep on operating for some 10 years afterwards, or more. Well as Trini [inaudible], the car which they took that night was old. And it began to stop and start and didn't want to start up again, and the chauffeur got out of the car and put more gasoline, they often carry a gallon of gasoline in their trunk, put more gasoline into the car. But �still, the motor wouldn't start. Regina was really preoccupied that the clinic was going to close and so she decided to leave this car and go rapidly in another car. But she couldn't get out of the car because the door was stuck. And she was trying to push it open and was tugging at it with both hands and then the chauffeur got out. And he pulled on it from the outside. And finally she was able to get out of the car. And she got a motor taxi, like a like a rickshaw in the Orient only with a motorcycle that does a lot of work here in in the cities of Peru. And now she took one of these motor taxis to the other clinic and met the doctor as he was leaving his office and asked him if he would please wait because the sister was coming in the other car. And she explained what had happened. Well Trini and Julia also wanted to take another car, but the chauffeur kept insisting No, his car was going to start up and asking them to wait just a little bit more. And of course, it was very painful for Ruth to move in and out of cars. And so Julia, nevertheless left the car and went to look for another taxi. At the same time that she left the car, this old car started up and start moving. And Trini looked behind and here was Julia, who was a little heavy, running behind the car trying to get back into it. And I guess it was like a comedy. [00:57:07] Well, she did manage to get into the car. And when they arrived to San Miguel, they asked the chauffeur not to turn off his motor in case the medico had already left and Ruth wouldn't be able to go in. But Julia went inside, she saw Regina, and she said that the doctor had said to go to this other consultorio to have x-rays taken and that he would wait until they got back with them. So that's what they did. Fortunately, Ruth did not have any broken bones, and her hip wasn't broken but was badly bruised. And so he gave her some medicine and sent her to the house with a prescription to get a lot of rest and not to try to move out of there for several days. [00:57:57] We lost three North Americans last year, who returned to the United States. And so for the first time this year, with the entrance of two young women in August, on August 15 of this year, Peruvians outnumber the North Americans who are here in Peru. One of the sisters who went back celebrated her 60th anniversary as a religious this year. And she began to suffer problems with her back and arthritis in general with her knees. And so although she didn't want to go back, it was really better that she did so, and she's living at the Motherhouse now, but still going out somewhat. [00:58:54] One of the other sisters who went back was a younger person, younger than I, who came down just about two or three years ago and had been secretary for Mary Kathleen, before she came down. Anna had wanted to come to South America for a long time. And the community had asked her to stay on for quite a while in the United States. She was director of one of our high schools was director of Hogan when I was working as counselor. And later on she was director of one of the schools in Leavenworth. And then as I said she became Secretary for Kathleen. And that was a big sacrifice for her because she finally got permission from Mary Kevin to come down. And then when Kathleen was elected and the Sister who had served as Secretary for Mary Kevin died of cancer very shortly thereafter, Kathleen asked Anna to stay on. Well, Anna, �although she had wanted to come for so long, had a hard time adapting to the situation here in Peru. And Mary Kathleen really needed her still as secretary, and so she went back to reassume that position there. [01:00:20] And before that, maybe six months before that one of the other sisters who had been here for four or five years, also went back and is working with Spanish speaking people there in the States. The despedida, or the farewell party for Rose Celine was to be on the 23rd of January. And we had all been invited to come over to Negritos for the celebration, to say goodbye to her and to have dinner with the sisters there. As some of you know, one of the really sad things that happened for our house took place that day when four of us from Santa Julia got off the bus to go to Negritos. When we were walking to catch the other bus for that little trip, some one man came up to Trini and offered his sympathy to her. And she didn't know that her father had died early that morning, very suddenly, it appears to be a cerebral hemorrhage. And so she was shocked of course. Two the other sisters came by shortly after that with a car and Joan picked her up and took her to her family home. Maria was driving the small pickup truck from Piura. And she didn't know about her father's death until she arrived in Negritos. The rest of us went by the family home to offer sympathy, but then went on over to Negritos to, quote, celebrate. Of course, there was a pall over the celebration. And after we had dinner and had given our farewells to Rose Celine, we returned to the home of Trini. And the sisters came back two Piura that night because they, of course, hadn't brought clothing with them. I stayed on because I had planned to stay the weekend in Talara. The others returned the next day for the funeral. [01:02:48] Those are some of the highlights of the year past. And something of the environment and the situation in which I live. Hopefully it wasn't too boring for you. Bernice, I'm going to ask you, if you will, to take these two 60 minute tapes and make one 90 minute tape for Fran. And I don't know whether Mary might find it interesting to have a tape also, since she was so interested in one I did in Chalaco. And she has been very good in helping our mission since that time. I was so pleased to have the letter from Janice that she wrote there at your house. Gave me a little start I must say to find her writing a letter from your address when I hadn't heard from you for so long. Until I could open the letter I was really concerned that maybe something happened to you. But it's really glad that she took the time to write, and I'm going to drop her a note too. I love you all, and I'll be writing. Bye. � https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/e30a2180fa13e74a421ee69ab377e46c.mp3 eac12bf904b1f892e90dd71f19c17281 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hoffelmeyer, S. Rose Dolores Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:01:36 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hoffelmeyer, S. Rose Dolores, Letter from Piura, ca. 1980's Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Peru; Piura; Description An account of the resource Sister sends an audio letter home to Leavenworth from her time in Peru. She describes life in Piura, a small city, and some of the families she has met and worked with. She talks of her work with a program designed to help provide some religious education to the local Catholic community. She mentions other Sisters working in programs related to health, food kitchens, and helping locals start businesses or find employment. She also describes the challenges of working in this area. There were relatively few priests and religious for the land area and population served. Electricity was often unreliable, and there were times of political and civil unrest, notably leading to a small bomb left at the gates of their home. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hoffelmeyer, S. Rose Dolores Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1980's Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Letter Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Hoffelmeyer, S. Rose Dolores Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Early 1980's Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Education foreign mission Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/3b12f34b83dbe8741573ac651618bd3d.PNG bc2260fd0c0e1a1286c87a739b76d4df https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/3cdbba061df7ff6b4ce2a29a095a2fdf.mp3 e2b7d7b01602f7ab1f9363fe38a84ee1 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/77b332166306d8883eec884b54765a22.pdf 6b11a63f0bc22894a6dace586442f6cb PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 1 of 24 JK: This interview is with Sister Therese Bangert. JK: The interviewer is Jane Kenamore, and we are at the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Mother House in Leavenworth, Kansas. The date is June 29th, 2017. Sister Therese, can you tell us about your parents, growing up in Nebraska? And what were some of the values that your parents passed on to you? [00:00:38] TB: Before I say that if I can say that I feel grateful to have the opportunity for this interview and in reflecting and preparing for it to put 72 years of life into 20 questions is no small challenge. JK: (Laughs) TB: So, I'm going to trust that the Holy Spirit is going to guide this interview and share what's important for people to know. So, my parents, Gerald and Edna—amazing parents—a genius at not being punishing or rulesoriented but expectations that we be responsible and we were. Both graduated from Creighton University, so the Jesuit influence in my mom and dad and what that meant for us in our lives, it's indescribable, but it filtered through all our lives. My mom also gave great credit to the Ursulines who taught her in high school. So, there was never an emphasis on money although my dad worried about having enough quite often. And when there are 12 children I think that's a legitimate worry. God and faith were important and Catholic was important but there was a great respect for other faiths. JK: And how was there a great respect for other faiths? [00:02:05] TB: One time I remember. We were in the days when people would say only Catholics went to heaven, and my mother said, "Oh, don't you ever say that. That's not right." And in our community you were either Lutheran or Catholic mostly, and the Lutherans were as committed to their faith as we were to ours. So, yes, that is an example of that. JK: Thank you. TB: Now, do I talk about my siblings here and the farm? JK: Sure. I mean we can be informal about this. TB: Ok. So, from my experience siblings are the best gift that your parents give you. And those precious relationships that I had with my 11 siblings continue, just the assurance of all these people who love you when you grow up in a family where the relationships were honored and nurtured. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 2 of 24 JK: How far apart were you? [00:03:00] TB: Nineteen years for the 12 of us. I'm number three. My oldest sister was in nursing school when my youngest brother was born. JK: So, just 19 years. TB: Right. And he was two when I left home which was very hard for me. I was on the older end so I loved the younger ones and cared for them but I was never their parent. My mom and dad were always the parents. And we had the farm, the luxury of all that space and all the places to adventure. Of the responsible jobs I'd say that truly made a difference for the family if you got the eggs, if you watered the calves and then the riding the tractors and in the grain trucks and the wagons. Our dad took us along a lot. And to this day I never get enough of being outside. JK: Really. And yet you live in the city. [00:04:03] TB: And I live in the city. That's right. (Laughter) TB: And one of my favorite things today is still to go to my brother's at planting and harvest time and ride with them on the tractors and the combines and in the trucks. JK: Oh, yes. That would be fun. Did you go to school in town close to where your farm was? [00:04:24] TB: I went to a one-room country school, K through 8. It was a half a mile from our home and we walked to school and back. Then went to high school at Sacred Heart in Falls City where the Sisters of Charity taught. There were 26 in my graduating class. JK: Did you board or was it close enough to ride to? [00:04:44] TB: It was close enough to go back and forth. It was nine miles. JK: And the SCLs taught at the school. [00:04:53] TB: They taught at the school, yes, and they taught me—very, very good teachers. And my writing that I've used for years, Sister Patricia and Sister Leo Therese, who's now Sister Mary Lou Mendel, taught me those skills that I continue. The skills that are foundational for me I continue to use. But also, I learned at the country school. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 3 of 24 JK: So, was that where you were first attracted to religious life, in high school or where? [00:05:23] TB: I'd say I was not attracted to religious life. JK: Oh. TB: I liked the SCLs and I respected them, but I had a call and it was an unmistakable call. And though I wasn't pleased, God is God and I answered. My decision came totally out of that call. JK: Really. And how did you feel that call? [00:05:48] TB: How did I feel it? JK: Yes. TB: I can tell you the moment. I was riding home on the school bus from a ballgame and… A priest in our high school, Father Kallen (phonetic) said to me, "I ask this of everybody, but do you think you have a vocation?" And that was kind of the first—what do I want to say?—blip on the screen, and I said, "Well, I'm not saying I don't but I'm going to go to college first." And then he said, "If you have a vocation cherish it like a wet lily pad." And I said to him, "Am I supposed to cherish a wet lily pad?" I remember it. JK: (Laughs) TB: But that didn't leave me. And coming home on the school bus that night in the dark and with tears I heard the call and I responded. JK: And did you join the community right after…? TB: High school. JK: Right after high school? [00:06:48] TB: Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And I add that I was graced with… Once I was here I'm not saying I never struggled with the vocation, but it was not primary for me at all, any struggles, I was at peace. It was very hard leaving but I was at peace. JK: And when did you join? [00:07:11] TB: 1963. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 4 of 24 JK: Oh. So that was early. So, you couldn't go for home visits or anything of that sort. TB: That's right. That's right. JK: That must have been very difficult. [00:07:21] TB: Very difficult. JK: Were there any other siblings who went into religious life? [00:07:31] TB: No. I have no other sibling that entered religious life. JK: Oh. Ok. What do you remember about your early ministry at St. Vincent's Home in Topeka, and how did that experience affect you? [00:07:50] TB: Can I go back to Vatican II for a moment? JK: Sure. TB: Ok. JK: Oh, I'm sorry. We left that out, didn't we? TB: I was fascinated in ways with Pope John XXIII, so he became a hero of mine, and my religious name was John Paula. And I had all kinds of reasons for being John, but we had to get it on a three-by-five card so I narrowed it down to that it was for the love of John the XXIII and the zeal of St. Paul. But so the structure after Vatican II changed from all of us doing the same thing at the same time and one of the welcomed things was we went from superiors who had a lot of discretionary power to more personal responsibility for each of us. I personally resisted the habit change. The superior told us at one point that we had to change where I was. And so I did. JK: And why did you resist it? [00:08:51] TB: That interesting… Well, I resist a lot and then I get there. And so that's kind of a theme of my life. So, it was welcomed to have an ability to connect with our families and to eat with them and to go home. JK: And how soon did that come? You joined in… [00:09:11] TB: '63. I asked Mother Leo Frances in '66 if I could go home to my brother's graduation which she allowed me to do, but you just go over night. I asked to go to my parent's 25th wedding �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 5 of 24 anniversary. Again, you just go over night. But she gave me permission to do those things. But it was still pretty constrained and I kind of now have forgotten the rhythm. But I was stationed in Los Angeles for six years, from '66 to '72. So, I was far away from the center of the community, but the real difficult thing was when so many Sister friends left. JK: I'll bet. I'll bet that was really hard. Of your class, for example, how many left? [00:10:04] TB: We started with 50, although Sister Susie (phonetic) always said one person only… she just came overnight. She never did even file down her fingernails. (Laughter) TB: But we had 50. But when we celebrated our Golden Jubilee there were four of us. JK: Only four. TB: Yes, and now there are three. JK: Oh, my gosh. How did you deal with that because you were losing Sister after Sister at a certain period of time? Would that have been the early 70s then or what? [00:10:43] TB: Right, because in Los Angeles at one of the years—I can't necessarily remember which one—oh, let me see, it was '69 maybe. JK: Ok. TB: That two Sisters came that I lived with were there and on December 8th, I remember it was the Holy Day, and they came in to tell me they were leaving. Yes. I don't know. You just dealt, I guess. And an interesting thing I want to mention was that one Sister was sent to L.A. to live with us because the leaders felt she was a rebel rouser and really she was a forward thinker, and she's in the community to this day. JK: Oh, really. [00:11:24] TB: But Los Angeles, we were somewhat out of the mainstream when we were out there compared to around here. And that was quite a time. JK: Did you ever entertain any thoughts of leaving? [00:11:39] TB: I'd say not really seriously, no. I struggled with the faithfulness to stay a couple times but never really seriously, and that was a grace. JK: Thank you. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 6 of 24 TB: So, I'm willing to go to St. V's now. JK: Ok. TB: St. Vincent's. JK: What do you remember about St. Vincent's and your experience there in Topeka? [00:12:03] TB: It changed me for life. JK: Oh really. TB: Yes. Both in what the children taught me and the quality of community life those nine years. I would just say there was a depth to our community life and part of it I think was because of the intensity of working with the kids all day. JK: Was this when it was an orphanage or was this when it was a home for troubled… TB: It was the home for troubled kids. JK: …troubled kids? [00:12:28] TB: And their stories were as different as the 24 of them. But the community life those years was a depth that I've not experienced ever since. But we worked hard; we prayed deeply, and we had fun together. And it was a very special time and I still have bonds with some of those… deep bonds with those women. And I'd say the children gave me a doctorate in incarnational theology. They taught me of the pain and suffering and the potential for grace in brokenness. They entered me into a world completely foreign to me from my life on the farm. The first staffing I attended was on an 11year-old girl that her father had prostituted. A student I taught had been kicked out of three kindergartens, and he was eight years old and he couldn't read the word "me." A child who had lived in 12 foster homes—she was 14. And the list goes on. Now, remember I'm the third in a family of 12. I was used to kids doing what I asked them to do, and these kids absolutely ignored me. It was just like I was shocked. I'd tell them to do something. They just looked at me and did the opposite. And I hadn't been teased about my buck teeth since grade school, but these kids pointed it out. I said that I identified with the woman in the Gospel who was giving her two pennies and Jesus talked about those who gave out of their abundance and then she gave out of her need. And I thought, boy, in this situation I am giving out of my need. It was a challenge. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 7 of 24 JK: Do you have any happy ending stories with the kids that you've dealt with? [00:14:26] TB: Well, my Gary when I come… JK: Oh, ok. TB: …to tell you about. I keep touch with Yvonne. So, those are probably the two of the kids and Gary's brother, Michael, who has since died. JK: Good. And then you were at Topeka State Hospital for a time, and that might have been a challenging experience. What do you remember from that? [00:14:53] TB: Well, my first year at Topeka State I took Clinical Pastoral Education which is CPE. And it was a great foundation really for the rest of my life. It taught me to reflect with a group on my personal strengths and weaknesses in being a chaplain. And in that program they do not hold back on what your weaknesses are. So, it was not an easy year but a very good year in terms of teaching me about myself and the way I ministered. Then for the next 13 years I was a Catholic chaplain there. And it happened that when I finished my CPE training the priest who was to come to be the Catholic chaplain at the hospital and do the weekly Catholic service at the prison, he left. And so I asked the head priest in the region if I could have that position. They didn't have a priest for it. And he said yes. So, that's how I moved into that and it was part-time. JK: And was this a mental hospital? [00:15:57] TB: Yes. It was a mental hospital. JK: It was. Ok. That's what I was assuming but then I was sort of thinking maybe it wasn't. TB: The patients there taught me their ability to worship as a community, because every Sunday we had a communion service, their ability to care about each other and participate in that. They also taught me the heavy burden that mental illness is both for them and for their families. I can't say that enough, of what a burden. And, again, I encountered kids, most of them who were there for behavior reasons more than mental illness, and most of them had no family connections. JK: And then not long after that they opened the mental hospitals and sent everybody out. TB: That's right. JK: And what was your reaction to that? [00:16:52] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 8 of 24 TB: They went to the prisons and the jails, 'cause prisons and jails can't say no to them. So, there's a lot of quite good research that says how many of the people in our prisons and jails are mentally ill. JK: Really. TB: And I remember the sheriff in Johnson County, which is right south of where I live, the rich county—his name is Frank Denning—saying publicly, "I run the biggest mental health system in the state." JK: Oh, my gosh. TB: In his jail. So, people are trying to do more and more kind of interceding before people get to the jail. There is some push toward that in our country. This was interesting. During my time at Topeka State I met and talked with Dr. Karl Menninger. I don't know if people here know who Dr. Karl Menninger was, but he was an internationallyknown psychiatrist. And I had a personal relationship with him, in fact. JK: Oh, you did. TB: Yes. And he had great empathy for people who were imprisoned and wrote that book called something about the sin of punishment or… And he went to the prisons and talked to the prisoners. In fact, at one point in the days when the prisons were a little freer than they are now—I can't imagine them letting me do this now—but I was connected with the minimum security prison through worship, and I took three of the men from the Stop Violence group, put them in my car, took them out to visit with Dr. Karl… JK: Really. [00:18:49] TB: …at the Menninger Foundation. And I ended up being at his bedside in the days before he died. JK: Really. TB: Yes. Anyway, he had great empathy with them. JK: I haven't heard that name for a long time. You probably should spell it for the transcriber. TB: K-A-R-L, Dr. Karl, and M-E-N-N-I-N-G-E-R. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 9 of 24 JK: Thanks. You've been involved in social justice, a ministry that I really admire personally. When did you realize you wanted to take part in changing society for the better? [00:19:41] TB: As I reflect when I made my first communion at eight years old I prayed for an end to the Korean War. JK: Oh, really. TB: I don't even know how quite I was aware of that. But I remember that specifically. And as a high schooler I was aware of the mistreatment of people who were black, especially noted that some motels allowed dogs but not people who were black. That was an underlying thing. So, perhaps God's spirit in me was nudging me early on to be an advocate. And then the Sisters of Charity in the days when I was teaching school in Los Angeles and then taking care of kids at St. Vincent's. Like our Sister Eileen Sheehy, along with many other faith leaders, answered the call of Dr. King to come and join them in walking across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. I think I'm remembering that incident correctly. JK: Really. TB: And we have her picture doing that. JK: Was she injured? [00:20:50] TB: No. JK: Good. TB: He asked them to come after they had been met walking across that with the fire hoses and the dogs. So, at that point it went peacefully, I think. And I don't know specifically about the '60s and '70s, but I know Sister Marie de Paul Combo, who was my mentor and a leader among us SCLs, she was a leader to call us to live out our constitution where it said we commit to justice and charity. And she highlighted the distinction. Charity is giving to people; justice is looking at why people are poor, why people have these needs and looking at more systemic things. And Marie de encountered lots of resistance. Social justice really was a bad word throughout a lot of the community. JK: Is that right? TB: But she trudged on through it all calling us… JK: I was going to ask why was there resistance. [00:21:58] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 10 of 24 TB: I think people felt like that as a religious that wasn't our job. JK: I see. Charity was but social justice was out of the realm. TB: But she called us to boycott the grapes for the farm workers. She called us to advocate for debt relief at the turn of the century. She called us to advocate against the welfare reform that was being proposed in 1996. She had the total community make a statement against the death penalty. She just kept at it. And she tried to get us to understand the power of institutions like the World Bank. And the good of people like the United Nations. And to this day I stand on her shoulders. JK: Oh, that's wonderful. And how much older was she than you at the time? [00:22:55] TB: She's in her 90s now, and I'm 72, so she's probably 20 years older than I am. JK: Right. Ok. TB: And she came from a background that her father was a union man for the Butte mines in Butte, Montana. JK: Oh, wow. Yes. TB: But she was dogged in her not giving up when it would have been easy to give up. JK: And so you stood with her. TB: Not always, no. No. She did that. I got into that circle at some point. When the community decided to have a Social Justice Committee in the community and I was one of the beginning members of that committee. And I even forget what date that was but Sister Mary Kathleen Stefani was our leader at that time. JK: Great. So, what were your early experiences in advocating for social justice? What issues did you take up? [00:23:57] TB: So my chaplaincy at the hospital and at the prison, and that was just on Sundays, was a halftime position. So I asked the community if I could volunteer two days at the Emergency Center for the poor in Topeka. And through that I got connected to the capitol and some of the issues around poverty in the Kansas Legislature. So, I asked if I could spend those two days during the legislative session that I spent at the Emergency Center, if I could spend those at the capitol. And that happened in 1987 which was the year that we had a new governor in Kansas who said he was going to have a death penalty bill signed on his desk by March the 1st. And I have to say that I just noted to me… I was concerned because we had elderly losing care because of our budget �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 11 of 24 issues. We had farmers losing their farms because of… and we're talking about the main priority is the death penalty? It was a political wedge in those days. And in the past six or eight years the legislature had passed death penalty bills but then-Governor John Carlin always vetoed them. So, it seemed like a shoe-in to get this passed. So, I started with the death penalty issue in the Kansas Legislature. And it began to teach me the system. So, the House passed a bill to reinstate the death penalty. The senators went slower and I think that myself with another young man named Michael, who really taught me how to even find these offices, we talked to every senator and six senators changed their vote, so we had a vote that they did not reinstate the death penalty. JK: Really. [00:26:12] TB: And in some ways that was not a good introduction to legislative work because most things you worked on for years. And I remember Father John Stitz, who was a great friend of the Sisters and worked farm issues in the legislature, calling me up the night of the vote and saying, "I am so jealous, because I can't believe that you all got this in your first year." Well, one of the big things I learned is that things come back. So, the next year they're back at trying to get the death penalty reinstated. I was just shocked. After you do all that it's back the next year. Another thing in 1998 when I was working with the Kansas Catholic Conference they had a big tax bill they were working on. And the Conference—and I was the lead person in the Conference with this—advocated for a refundable earned income tax credit in the Kansas tax system, so it would add to what people get from the federal earned income tax. And it was basically for lowincome working parents. And still today that puts nearly 90 million dollars in the pockets directly of low-income working parents who file their tax returns and have earned income. [00:27:31] Then in 2004 one of the issues that we worked… We began to work the immigration issues and Kansas was one of the first states to give in-state tuition to young people who are not citizens but who graduated from high school, and they could go to any Regents university for in-state tuition. JK: Interesting. TB: Yes. People can hardly believe that. So, some of the things I learned about that was that in the legislature you have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies in advocacy and among the legislators. You never really know who your friend might be. And you might win one year and next year you're back at it. Like I'm saying, every year there is always an effort to repeal the in-state tuition and an effort to repeal the refundable income credit. JK: But they haven't passed yet. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 12 of 24 TB: They haven't passed. Just this past year again the earned income tax credit we have… JK: So, your legislature then must be somewhat liberal, much more so than I thought if they're not passing that. [00:28:42] TB: (Laughs) No, you've heard rightly. On the immigration issues we have a strong business coalition. JK: Oh, I see. TB: They're not necessarily out in front like on the in-state tuition but they'll talk about it behind the doors, and they are the people who give money to these legislators. And plus the education community has been very strong. The Regents—we've had Regent leaders who come in. And these are also people that legislators know. So it's been a miracle that, right, the in-state tuition and that we've held onto that and the earned income tax credit. And to be fair that Governor Brownback behind the scenes, he didn't want an in-state tuition repeal on his desk. JK: He didn't. TB: No, no. No. I mean he's not going to come out front about it. And he behind the scenes said we're not going to do anything to refundable earned income tax credits. But I've learned that I always need a team and I'm a good team member. Also, another thing I've learned legislators are called to do an incredible amount of listening. I mean it has to get boring because it's boring to sit there, and I don't have to do it as much as they do. So, when I give testimony I pray to the Holy Spirit to help me be creative and say something to engage them. So, I have this reputation now in the legislature as a testifier that is creative so people… I feel some pressure now that they're listening to what Sister Therese is going to say in her testimony. (Laughs) JK: Oh, that's great. (Laughs) So, you did some personal social justice work in your prison work. Can you tell us about working with the prisoners and what you learned? And then you also mentioned you have an adopted son, Gary. So, if you could tell us a little bit about that part of your life. [00:30:51] TB: Ok. JK: And social justice too. TB: I trace my prison work back to my Grandpa Bukoff (phonetic) who was on the Falls City City Council, and he took the responsibility for the jail. He said nobody else wanted it. And he said, "They aren't bad fellows." And he would take them out of the jail and have jobs for them to �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 13 of 24 do and then he would go get them Cokes and candy. So, I say my prison thing came from Grandpa Bukoff (phonetic). So, I started in the prisons in '73 when a Sister from another community invited me. And that led me to go weekly to the Mass at the Topeka prison with the priest. I forget kind of the timing of this but at one point, I say this with humility I hope, but he was a terrible homilist, and it just did not ever connect, from my point of view, with the prisoner's lives. So, I asked him if I could do the homily. And he told me I could. JK: Oh, good. TB: He was pretty forward thinking. Anyway, so I begin to preach in the prisons but nobody cared about who preached in the prisons. So, I did that for years. Then when I took the chaplaincy of the Topeka State Hospital that also included that piece to go weekly to the prison and do the Catholic service. So, I did a communion service which was the liturgy of the Word, really the same structure that we have at Eucharist. And then I would go to the Our Father, to that place, and we would have a communion service. And through the years, the 13 years, they opened a minimum security prison. I took that on every Sunday. And then when they moved the maximum security women from Lansing up here to Topeka I started doing the service there and then trained lay people to do the communion services. And a piece of my prison ministry that I'm most grateful for is that four of the lay people I prepared to do communion services are still at the prisons today ministering there and doing that. So when I left Topeka that continued which I have always felt… JK: That's good. Yes. [00:33:26] TB: I mentioned something that probably not a lot of people know that at one point in my prison ministry at the maximum security diagnostic center a prisoner lingered after the Sunday service and then he grabbed me around the neck. And my response was immediately to push back. And I got away from him and went… moving out of that room and right into a pod of all the men saying, "Officer, officer." And the guy was behind me saying, "Don't tell. Don't tell." And I said, "You've already done it. I'm going to tell." I mean I remember saying that. So, of course investigators talked to me etcetera, etcetera. And my thought was they're going to say at the prison that this little woman can't do this anymore. But, instead, they gave me an officer, so after that I always had an officer in the room with me; before I had not. [00:34:25] So, I go to pray with the prisoners because I need their witness of their faith, those who choose to come. I'm dealing with those who choose to come to a worship. Because of their humility most of them face their sins and their depth in breaking the Word. I've always dialogued with them about what the scripture means for them. Praying with them helps me. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 14 of 24 I've also learned how vulnerable the kids at St. Vincent's are and those like them to ending up in the prison system. How those with mental illness end up there. JK: Was the one that grabbed you around the neck, did he have mental illness, do you think? [00:35:16] TB: I don't know. I kind of presume he did. They told me he had been aggressive with one of the nurses too. JK: Oh, really. TB: Or at least something about women—that he didn't like us. And also how vulnerable so many are to the call of the streets, I call it, and then a system that's ready to eat them up. JK: What do you mean by that, gang activity or being homeless on the streets? [00:35:50] TB: I would mean more gang activity or maybe "gang" in quotes. That you get with your buddies and then the smart buddies don't do the things that get the most time. I mean they have those who are, I want to say, not as smart do the things that… or the young ones go and do things and they get involved in things that are way over their head. And one of the questions, if I might say, you ask about fix for prisons—what would be my take on that. I think we have to continue to work on the systemic causes of poverty. I'd like to see us reinstate the Pell Grants that allow those in prison have education. That's been taken away. And I'd like to see more societal law enforcement energy on white collar crime, 'cause I think you can send people to war on a false pretense and not have any repercussions. And it seems to me at times that kills a lot more people. Or you can cheat the poor and not pay them wages or not pay them living wages. Some of those things to me are things that need more emphasis, 'cause we talk about all the violence is the shooting and the fights and that's not all the violence. Poverty is a violence. JK: And would you include funding education well in that? [00:37:33] TB: Surely, because we know there are great discrepancies in the public schools where I am. And I would say one of the things when I moved to Wyandotte County was my horror at what people got As and Bs for. I mean it's not grades that are important. It's can somebody read? Can somebody think? And so this just passing people along, it's wrong. Yes, I would include… But it's very important that we keep the public education system strong. I can go to Gary now if you're ready for me to go to Gary. (Laughs) �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 15 of 24 JK: Yes. Tell us about Gary. [00:38:21] TB: Gary's been the biggest surprise of all God's gifts to me. Some parts of his story are his to tell. However, I was his childcare worker for him and his younger brother, Michael, when he was nine and Michael was six when I first met them and that was at St. Vincent's Home. I left after a year there but always kept some touch with the two of them. So, when Gary got out of foster care he had no one. I stayed connected and served as his CASA, Court Appointed Special Advocate, in Juvenile Court until he was discharged at 21. And one day he introduced me to a friend as his mom. Well, I kept my startle to myself but I continued our walk. And once you give me that title he was stuck with me. Although I'd say along the way he would have liked to have gotten rid of me. I tell people that his "moming" me was no honorary title that we've walked the walk. He has been one of my favorite and most influential teachers. He's taught me a hint of what it means to belong to no one. A hint of the white privilege that I live with, a hint of the financial struggles of making it on your own, a hint of the emotional challenge of living as an adult with the effects of childhood trauma. And a hint of the burden of racism and the incidents that never quit. And I proudly claim him as my son, as a wonderfully compassionate person who's very much respected in his profession as a fine dining waiter. JK: Oh, that's great. So, where does he live now? [00:40:26] TB: He lives in… well, really he lives in Scottsdale, Arizona. JK: Oh. TB: He works in Old Scottsdale but had been in Tempe for nine years and recently moved. JK: Sounds like he's done very well. TB: I don't ever want to undermine his struggle but, yes, he has. JK: You mentioned it in your bio form that you filled out so he must mean a lot to you. [00:40:59] TB: Yes, I'm his mom. And in my family kids are tops. So, yes. JK: Oh, that's great. TB: He's been a surprise gift, as I say. JK: Going back to the death penalty, why do you think it's been so difficult particularly in certain states to overcome this horrible practice? [00:41:32] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 16 of 24 TB: My experience is that people feel a loyalty to the victims and the victim's family. And most of us, including the legislators, are pretty uncomfortable with those who've lost loved ones to murder. Their pain is very raw. So, when they come and talk about it it's very raw. So, to get beyond that, what feels like loyalty to the victims, to a place of the reality of the death penalty… like Sister Helen Prejean says there are three things that get you on death row. You're poor; you killed a white person and who your lawyer is. Pope Francis recently just in the last couple months said the death penalty is a mortal sin. That's the strongest church statement we've ever had on this issue. I've been working against it since 1987. I have almost daily contact with the issue in some way, and you won't convince me that it's helpful to anybody. Although I advocate for replacing it with life in prison without parole I have to say that deep in my spirit I have concerns about life in prison without parole too. I think some people, for the safety for themselves and the community, need a structured environment for the rest of their lives. I'm not sure everyone does. And I remind people that in the Scriptures that we hear we hear from Moses who killed in a burst of emotion. We hear from Paul who killed, was a murderer. We hear from David. I pray his psalms daily, his songs (phonetic). David had the most planned, calculated, premeditated murder of Uriah and not just Uriah but his troops, of anybody and the love that came to his heart in his asking for forgiveness. My other example is when Jesus was on the cross with the two others and this one man who society thought was so terrible they should kill him recognized not only that Jesus was innocent but also that he had a Kingdom that was not of this world. And I think he brought Jesus great comfort when they're hanging there naked. And Jesus must have thought what's this all about? I think he brought Jesus great comfort in that recognition. So, those are some of the core things that keep me involved in this issue. JK: And yet there are so many people that are adamant that it should remain. [00:44:54] TB: That has changed some in past years, and there are fewer death penalties being given in the United States, but people in Europe think we're just crazy... JK: I know. TB: …that we have the death penalty yet. Yes. It's a tough issue. And really my involvement with the death penalty was one of the reasons when I came to Wyandotte County besides a friend of many or our Sisters, Marianne Slattery in the district attorney's office in Wyandotte County, said, "Therese, I think you should consider being a police chaplain." And I thought I don't want people saying that naïve Sister (I don't like the word nun) that naïve Sister doesn't know what she's talking about when she talks about what the church says about violence and the death penalty etcetera. Even though with police chaplaincy I've been to many homicide scenes I've never been convinced that more violence or the violence of the death penalty is a solution to any of this. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 17 of 24 JK: So, for the past 21 years, I believe you said, you've been a police chaplain. [00:46:03] TB: Right. JK: So, you've been on the other side. TB: Yes. JK: This is really interesting. Well, you just mentioned how you kind of got into it. What exactly do you do as a police chaplain? [00:46:20] TB: So, for about 17 years for 48 hours a month I would carry the police beeper and if they had a call during that time whether it was two o'clock in the afternoon or two o'clock in the morning they would beep you and ask you to come to the scene. So, I say is that in my life before that I always had the protection of a system around me or a structure like a hospital, even in the prison there's a structure. But you are right at the scene so there's no protection for any of that. So, you go to the scene and as one of the men who I really liked, the chaplain said, "I get a tightness in the pit of my stomach every time that beeper goes off. But I say, ok, God. I'll get myself there and you have to take over from there." And that's really… 'cause there's no playbook to tell you how to deal with the scenes. So, you go to the scene and… JK: I'm sorry. Where are you working in Kansas City? [00:47:28] TB: Kansas City, Kansas, in Wyandotte County. JK: Kansas City, Kansas. TB: And you go to the scene and the Holy Spirit is faithful, and you learn a lot about Jesus and the Holy Spirit at those scenes that you don't learn any place else. And sometimes you're just standing there with chaplain on your back. Lots of times you look for some person in the family that might be a connection for you to reach out to the family. JK: The victim's family. TB: The victim's family. JK: Ok. TB: And sometimes you can be somewhat helpful about… that the body's still laying on the ground and they have to wait 'til they take all their pictures and until the morgue comes to pick the body up and that always seems to take a long time. So, you can just say that they need to do �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 18 of 24 their investigative work, pick up the evidences so it can't be contaminated. One of the hardest things is ordinarily they don't let the victim see the body. JK: Oh, they don't. [00:48:39] TB: Not at the scene or even in the hospital and that's a really difficult thing for family members. Very difficult. And we've worked on that but it's very difficult for them. JK: What has it been like to work with the police? How do you see the police in Kansas City, Kansas? Kansas. [00:49:04] TB: Yes. I'm not naive that there are some bad police officers, but my experience is that the greatest percent of them are good. And I tell them that good police officers are holy, and I believe that deeply. Who deals with the poor in the community? It’s the police. It's a call just like my call. And recently I had a detective say to me, "Nobody leaves this job without having posttraumatic stress syndrome." One thing that I say when people tell me with the death penalty we have it to protect police. I say, "Are you aware that more police die from suicide than from homicide? What are we doing to support them in," I say, "just the bruising and the daggers in their spirit with the things that they encounter day after day?" JK: Do you spend time with them after a traumatic incident ever? [00:50:14] TB: I'm a woman so most of them don't want me to do that, if I can say that bluntly. Although around Detective Lancaster's murder which happened last May I've been able to have some conversations with detectives that I've never had before that were very important to me, and I think important to them. JK: What was the story of Detective Lancaster's murder? [00:50:43] TB: He was shot by a man named Curtis Ayers when he approached him because the Hollywood Casino had called and said we have a person that we're concerned about. And Mr. Ayers had a gun and he shot Detective Lancaster and took his car. And Detective Lancaster died at KU Hospital. So, with an incident like that I got a text that said a police officer's been shot. If you're available please go to police headquarters. And police headquarters is two blocks from my office so I vigiled with mostly the women in the detective bureau that are their support staff for that. And we thought that Detective Lancaster was doing fine and then he wasn't, and then we got word that he died. So, I have walked that walk with them and walked anniversary time. I've observed his widow saying that she agreed to the plea of life in prison without parole. So, Detective �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 19 of 24 Lancaster was murdered in May of '16. The person who pled guilty, Mr. Ayers, was sentenced in March of 2017 and that was completed. And I didn't have any police officer, and I checked with five to ten, say, oh, he should have had the death penalty. They respected her decision and one of them said to me, "It's God's place to judge not mine." Another one said, "We make mistakes. I don't think the death penalty is necessarily a good idea." And they all know all the legal procedures that happen so it stretches on and on. So, again, I learned. I learned. JK: So, you mentioned your being a woman had a bearing on working closely with the detectives. Have you been able to form close relationships with any of them and what kind of…? [00:53:09] TB: I wouldn't call them close relationships. I would say that I have very respectful relationships with a number of them. I wouldn't call them close relationships. But I've made myself available. On the day that Detective Lancaster was shot and one of the police officers who was with him, another police officer wanting to help him said, "Sister, will you come with me and offer to visit with him." So, I went in and he wasn't interested in visiting with me. One of the women up in the department said, not a woman police officer but a support staff said, "You're a woman. I'm used to that all the time." So, it's still a man's profession although there are a lot of women there, and I also respect them. JK: But no women police detectives. [00:54:02] TB: Oh, yes. There are women police detectives. JK: But not in this particular office. TB: Yes. Uh-huh. There are. JK: Oh, there are. TB: But it wasn't the woman who had been directly with the police officer, who had been with Detective Lancaster when he was shot. JK: Do you have anything else to share about your police…? Oh, you mentioned earlier where you live with the Sisters in doing your work. [00:54:49] TB: As Sisters of Charity we have an intentional house that was at 8th and Quindaro, which in Kansas City Quindaro was known as Blood Boulevard at one point because it was a high violence area. And we moved into the old rectory which was next to Our Lady of St. Rose �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 20 of 24 Church, Catholic Church at 8th and Quindaro. So, it began with five of us. When I left last year there were just two of us left. Really, I was going to be the last one left. But we intentionally lived there in the low income, high violence area to be a presence there. And we went out from there to do all our different things. Again, you learn. Just being in that neighborhood you learn a lot. And you learn the quality of the grocery stores. JK: For example. [00:55:43] TB: For example… For one thing they're more expensive. They're dirty. The quality of the food. You get the things that are dented and the things that are close to date of "Best by" if they're not "Best if used by." And you just notice those things. And then eventually those all closed and it's at least a half an hour to a grocery store. People in that neighborhood don't walk for exercise. They walk because that's how a number of them get around. The children, you don't see them outside a lot. There's a swimming pool that's on Quindaro that's four blocks down that I worked with all my years there for one thing—to get them not to close it at six o'clock and to have them open until eight o'clock at least. And then you see the kids come out and walk to the swimming pool. But lots of you say where are these kids coming from? Or when they get on their school busses but you don't see them at other times. By the time we left a lot of immigrants were integrating into that neighborhood and rebuilding the ramshackle houses. JK: Oh, were they? [00:57:10] TB: Yes. So, interesting, yes, interesting changes. JK: And when did you leave? [00:57:16] TB: Last September. September of 2016. JK: Do you live here now? [00:57:22] TB: I live in Kansas City, Kansas yet. JK: Oh, ok. You don't live here at the Mother House. TB: No. I do not. JK: You've also been active lobbying the state legislature and you've worked with the Kansas City Catholic Conference. Can you tell us about that experience and what you've learned in the process? [00:57:49] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 21 of 24 TB: I was brought onto the Catholic Conference team to advocate on poverty issues which I did for a number of years and I've forgotten how many. Then our director died of cancer, and after two years under the new director I was informed that they had restructured and they no longer would have my position. So most of us know what restructuring means. (Laughter) TB: The new director with the support of the bishops narrowed the issues we worked on to what really, at that time, were the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops priorities—abortion, gay marriage, religious freedom. JK: Oh. TB: So, as one of the Catholic legislators noted when SCLs allowed me then to lobby in their name it really left me freer. It was a gift of the spirit. So, I could go back to lobbying on the issues of poverty. And I would note that there is significant angst among some of the legislators who are Catholic about the seeming non-voice of the Conference of issues that impact people in poverty. So, I carry the water, in a sense, for the church about those issues, and I'm grateful for that role but that's a tension that's… The church has such a rich tradition of Catholic social teaching and now the words of Pope Francis about the poor. And as SCLs we had Vincent and Louise and Mother Xavier and our rich tradition, so I'm grateful to be a voice within these traditions for the Gospel Values. JK: It's fortunate that you're there, that you are the voice. [00:59:39] TB: It's a gift to be there. I've been there 30 years. And I'd like to mention here the teamwork that I've done with justice leaders of Sisters in five of the Sister communities that are located here in Kansas. So, if something comes up in the legislature I email them out and we physically met at times. And I rely on good info, at times from Catholic Charities, from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and in particular Network which is the Catholic Sisters Social Justice Lobby that was begun. I think we must be close to 50 years now. JK: The New York Times recently published an article about liberal religions working together for change. How have you found that experience? Or do you have that experience, and what types of projects have you worked on together? [01:00:44] TB: I have to say I don't like the word "liberal." JK: Ok. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 22 of 24 TB: I prefer… Now, people would probably call me liberal. I like to say I'm not Democrat or Republican. I'm for policy and advocate for what promotes the common good, because to me liberal gives a label that is not positive to some people. JK: To some people that's true. TB: Just like conservative gives a label that's not positive to some people, and really I don't like either of those labels. JK: Ok. TB: So, I would say I've done more ecumenical work than I have interfaith, and that's, I think, from being in Kansas for one thing. So, for over a decade I have planned with the United Methodist Women their day, their advocacy day that they do at the capitol. And anyway I've been part of their planning team to do that. I should say the United Methodist Women are the leaders of it but other faiths are invited. The Church World Service women are invited. But at the same time I've worked with a woman of the Jewish faith who led the efforts in Johnson County around public school funding. This past year Kansas Interfaith Action had a Muslim day at the capitol. So, those things might be increasing. I say the broader we can make the tent for the common good the better off we are. So I invite those kinds of interactions, and, again, I learn. I really don't know that much about the Muslim religion. So, those are ways that I can learn. JK: How has prayer facilitated your work? [01:02:55] TB: I say that prayer is the patchwork quilt that covers all my work. And my mother had a great devotion to the Holy Spirit. So, that seed was planted in me and I depend on the Holy Spirit in my work. I've always loved the Psalms and the Gospels and they feed me and send me. And as I've gotten older my prayer has fewer words and more silence but I still have many distractions. Community prayer with my Sisters is important to me and vital. So, yes, I say that prayer is at the center and my relationship with our God. JK: And you pray with your community and how else has your community supported you over the years? [01:03:55] TB: I would say Sister Sue Miller who was our leader for12 years and then a councilor. She was my councilor before that. She, when I was in Topeka, when I asked her if I could volunteer two days a week at the Emergency Center she said yes. When I asked her if I could change that from the Emergency Center to go to the legislature she said yes. And at one point when I shared with her my concern that you seem to get more attention in this community for being sick than you do for having courage she offered to come to the legislature with me, and she did. So, those were all significant for me. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 23 of 24 JK: Sure. Yes. TB: So, when you look at the array of things I've done I could never have done those without the community support. For one thing they clothe me, and they feed me, and they house me, and they see that I have a car that gets me back and forth to Topeka and other places. JK: And they support you emotionally I'm sure. [01:05:05] TB: Exactly, exactly. And then most recently Sister Eileen Haynes who's the councilor that I touch base with is very supportive of my advocacy work. And I would say Sister Maureen Hall who was our community leader for six years, she was my councilor when we made the move into Quindaro and she helped me when one of the leaders said, "Oh, Therese, you're going to move into this house. It has a hole in the wall," you know. And, "Do you think you could find another house in the community?" But it was Maureen who understood the importance of the connection next to the church, you know. So, we fixed the hole in the wall and then we have a lovely home which children in the neighborhood called a palace. JK: Yes. So, if St. Vincent and Louise visited you today would he recognize the SCL? Would they recognize the SCL as theirs? [01:06:12] TB: I hope Louise and Vincent would recognize us. But we live in a lot of abundance. I live in abundance. I have health insurance. We know what an issue that is for so many people. I have a car that runs. I have a home where the bills are paid without worry. But the passion and the service continue, and I'd just like to quickly share two stories from Sunday. I walked in the door on Sunday for our Jubilee celebration with Sister Judith Hayes, and she said to me, "Therese, you've made me a political radical." JK: (Laughs) TB: "I'm calling those senators," she said. "I've got Mitch McConnell's number in my phone. I have his phone number in my phone. And I have Senator John McCain. I have his number in my phone. You've made me a political radical." JK: (Laughs) TB: And then told me a couple of things she said which were right on, you know. Then later in the afternoon I ran into one of our… Sister Anne Callahan who just had her 88th birthday. And she said, "Therese, I always call when you send out those alerts, because I pray and I ask Jesus, and I say I can't ask Jesus to do something if I'm doing nothing." So, that example of the passion that's still there for the poor, for the poor, I know Louise and Vincent would recognize that. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Therese Bangert Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 7, 2017 Page 24 of 24 JK: Absolutely. TB: The abundance is a question. JK: And our last question is what do you think is the future of religious life in general and the SCLs in particular? [01:0810] TB: I think for me the question is what's the future for God's Kingdom? And I see and hear people, not Sisters, doing what I believe is the work of God's heart and hands without calling it what I call it. I think of three national, international organizations in particular and the people who staff them. Jubilee USA which works on debt relief issues for countries where they pay more on their debt and the interest on their debt than they do for healthcare and education in their countries because of unscrupulous leaders and unscrupulous hedge fund buyers who already have more money than they need, but Jubilee USA works that. I think of the Nonviolent Peace Force which came out of the inspiration of a man from the United States, and I forget where the other man was from, but they have people that are like the army except they're not armed. And they go in to negotiate in these places of violence to bring a place where people can safely come together to bring safety to like women that are going out to get firewood etcetera. But that whole concept of a nonviolent peace force to me is the work of a Kingdom. Then there's the Center for Justice and Accountability. Their primary staff recruits pro bono lawyers who go after the higher ups in the human rights abuses. So, they're the people that are looking at who murdered Archbishop Romero, who caused some of the massacres in El Salvador. They just have had a case about Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge or… I don't know if I'm saying the name right. But they're doing bold and much more courageous things than me. And I believe that those are about the Kingdom. So, I believe God's spirit is alive and well in the world. I've been gifted to be a SCL and I'm gifted to serve here, but I'm not worried about what's ahead and I don't know what's ahead but I know the Kingdom, God's Kingdom will continue to come. JK: Thank you so much. TB: Thank you. ### � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bangert, S. Therese Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kenamore, Jane Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MPEG Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:11:21 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bangert, S. Therese, Oral History, 6/29/2017 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Social Justice; Chaplain; Vatican II Description An account of the resource Sister opens her interview by speaking about her family and upbringing in Nebraska. She mentions that the teachers at her local school were SCLs, creating an early introduction to the community. Initially resistant to the idea of religious life, she clearly remembers the moment she was called to the community during a school trip. In her reflections on her early days in the community, she speaks about the modernization brought about by Vatican II and the difficulties of losing close friends as they chose to leave the community. Her initial posting at St. Vincent's home taught her about the struggles people face as a result of social injustices. She later worked at the Topeka State Hospital, trained as a chaplain, and worked in prison ministry. The trajectory of her mission work illustrated how people can become trapped in the system and drew her to be involved in the Social Justice Committee. While working in Topeka, she also became involved in political issues such as immigration and the death penalty. She also speaks of her adopted son, Gary, and the lessons he has taught her. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bangert, S. Therese; Kenamore, Jane Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/29/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Bangert, S. Therese; Kenamore, Jane Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1945-2017 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Social Service https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f15511706d1e411ff5a23a569a09a47f.PNG 86158ee3a073a90b7620693896a7f0cc https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/07676890b410950a354b78d6e009dee9.mp3 dbf993307e145c484a20edc3798dfbfe https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/5d38626402957cbdfa482147950473f7.pdf 4af89bd97827d479ba5ce03313920fe9 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 1 of 16 JK: This interview is with Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka. MMS: Yes. JK: Ok. The interviewer is Jane Kenamore. We are at the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Mother House in Leavenworth, Kansas, and the date is June 29th, 2017. MMS: The year goes by. JK: Sister Marie Madeleine, when and where were you born? [00:00:40] MMS: I was born and raised in Chapell, Nebraska which is a small town in the western part of the state, close to Denver and Cheyenne. JK: Oh, it is. Ok. MMS: Right in the corner. JK: Oh, ok. Can you tell us about your parents and the values that they passed onto you? [00:00:59] MMS: Oh, yes. My mother was a staunch Lutheran, and my father was a staunch Bohemian. (Laughs) JK: A staunch what? MMS: Bohemian. JK: Oh. MMS: Czechoslovakian. And we had a wonderful family life. They were very good. My mother was very humble. My father was a plumber, and we were poor but we never lacked for love and care. JK: And your town was a very small town, I gather. [00:01:23] MMS: 1,198. JK: Oh, my gosh, yes. So, what was it like to grow up in a small town? [00:01:32] MMS: You know, when you live in a small town you know everybody and everybody knows you and you make friends, and you do all the things kids do in school. I worked in a soda fountain at our corner drugstore and so I got to know a lot of people. Had a great life. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 2 of 16 JK: Oh, that's good. Did your town have a Catholic school? [00:01:57] MMS: We were part of a very small group of Catholics in Chapell, Nebraska at that point in time. In fact, there were very few Catholic families. And one of my good friends was Pat O'Connor who later became a Sister of Charity and her sister Margaret became a Sister of Charity. And their brother became a Passionist Father. So, they were a strong influence in my family or to me, to me. But I enjoyed living and growing with them. One of the joys of my life was on Good Friday. I was one of the only kids in school that could ask to be dismissed at 12:00 noon so I could say Stations of the Cross. JK: (Laughs) That was lucky. (Gap) JK: You started by going into nursing training. Am I right on that? [00:03:00] MMS: Yes. Yes. JK: Why did you decide to go into nursing? [00:03:03] MMS: I mentioned earlier that we were poor. And after I graduated from high school I wanted to go to college but I knew that that was impossible. And it was about that time that the Cadet Nurse Corps was started. And my mother heard it advertised one day on the radio. And I came home from school and she said, "Honey, I think you should think about going into the Cadet Nurse Corps." So, I looked at St. Joseph Hospital in Denver and made my decision to, yes, I'd go, and so I entered there in June of 1944. JK: Oh, and you actually served in the military then? [00:03:40] MMS: No, it wasn't the military really. It was a program to try to get people interested in nursing because we were in the middle of the war. And it was free tuition. It was free uniforms. It was free everything. So we were really God blessed at that point in time to have that opportunity. I hadn't had an inclination to become a nurse but the opportunity was there and I took it. JK: Oh, good. So, was that your first experience with the Sisters of Charity? [00:04:13] MMS: It really was. I knew very few Sisters in my life prior to that time. There were Sisters of St. Benedict or some group in Sidney, Nebraska, and they'd come down a couple of weeks �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 3 of 16 during the summer to give us some classes in catechism and all, but they were the only nuns I ever knew. So, I had no drawing to Catholicism as a nun. JK: Can you describe your nursing training? [00:04:44] MMS: Yes, I was fortunate. It was a three-year program, the hospital schools of nursing, and it was very good. And I so admired… I really admired the Sisters. I think that's where I came so involved with the Charities because I watched the nursing nuns, and they were really the core of hospitals at that point in time. I think the nursing nuns really built the hospital system in this country. Powerful women. JK: That's true. MMS: Yes, it is. (Gap) JK: It was a three-year program and was there anything notable in it? [00:06:01] MMS: I think we produced wonderful bedside nurses in the hospital schools of nursing. Later on when I became an educator in nursing education the country was going through the process of changing nurses from three-year programs to four-year programs with your BSN and that sort of thing. And we struggled for years to keep the schools with the three-year programs open. But it really wasn't fair to our graduates because they ended up with their RN but it took them two more years to get their BSN. So, our hospital program, St. Francis, St. Joseph, St. Vincent's all phased out during that period of time. JK: Oh, that's a good idea. MMS: Yes, it was. We had women of vision. Really Sister Eugene Teresa McCarthy was one of the leaders in moving nursing education from strictly bedside care to the hospital where they were teaching women more how to interact with people and that sort of thing. So, the hospital programs prepared us to take care of the body, and the college programs helped us to take care of the whole person. JK: Oh, yes. That's good. I'm assuming… I'll ask the question anyway. What attracted you to the SCLs and going into religious life in general? [00:07:26] MMS: Just my experience at St. Joseph's and my admiration for the Sisters that I saw working there. And they were so… They were just great women. They were generous and competent and kind and strong, prayerful. I mean they set a real pace for me. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 4 of 16 JK: Yes, good. Who were your early mentors in SCL? [00:07:50] MMS: Sister Alice Marie Schwieder was a lifelong friend. And some of my other friends, Sister Joan Allard and Sister Macrina Ryan, Mary Julie Casey, just some of the wonderful women I met along the way. They weren't all in nursing but they were wonderful Sisters. JK: Oh, good. When did you enter specifically? [00:08:15] MMS: I entered the community on February the 11th, 1947. And that was three days before the Sisters… When we entered, there were only five of us, and all the people in the novitiate were on retreat at that point in time. So, we walked from the noisy, blustery world into a world of silence, and we looked around and we wondered what we had gotten into. So, here we were. And so the retreat was over on February 15th, and some of our Sisters made their first vows then and so life went on. JK: Did most of the classes begin in September? Is that why yours was small? [00:08:55] MMS: No, no. We entered in February and most of the classes entered, the large classes entered on August 15 of each year. JK: Oh, I see. MMS: And that's when the girls were out of college and the summer schools and high school etc., etc. And at that point in time many women entered as you well know. So, the five of us were outliers. JK: Right. Yes, you were. But I guess that mid-year entry was probably small usually. MMS: It was wonderful. Oh, yes. It didn't last too much longer. You know after a few years they started to straggle in most times but not as group in February. JK: Oh, I see. MMS: So, the main entrance date for a while was August to my knowledge. And, again, you know, I'm 91. (Laughs) So, I might be off on my timing. JK: You were ideally prepared for your early ministries. What were your positions at St. Francis in Topeka, St. Vincent's or St. V's in Billings and St. Joseph's in Denver? [00:10:04] MMS: When I finished my… I made my first vows in February of 1950, I was sent to St. Francis Hospital in Topeka. And I told God I that didn't want to be in OB. I didn't want to work �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 5 of 16 nights, and I didn't want to educate anybody. So, the first thing I did was to be assigned to obstetrics. And, oh, my. We had more precipitations than the world dreams. Then I was assigned to night duty, and that was another growing experience. And the education part was something that I finally latched onto and continued in my progress. JK: Oh, good. And then you went to St. Vincent's in Billings? [00:10:50] MMS: Yes. I went to St. Vincent's, and I was director of the school of nursing, but I also was teaching on the side a few classes. And I loved working with the young women, because they would come in, and, you know, kids 18 and 19 are a little bit scatterbrained and all that sort of thing. But as the years progressed and they worked ahead in their educational programs, they matured beautifully, beautifully. It was a joy to watch that growth. JK: But you were young then, weren't you? MMS: Yes. JK: How old were you when you were director of nursing? [00:11:24] MMS: Oh, 24, 25, 26, something like that. JK: You were director of nursing. Were many people working for you? MMS: Director of the school of nursing. JK: Oh, school of nursing. MMS: School of nursing. School of nursing. JK: Ok, but even still. MMS: Well, it was a challenge. JK: Yes, I can imagine. What were some of the challenges that you ran into? [00:11:44] MMS: Finding my way around as the director. (Laughter) MMS: And working with the young women, and making sure that our educators were good educators and just life in general. But it was great. I loved my hospital life. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 6 of 16 JK: Oh, that's good. MMS: Yes. JK: Did you like Billings as well? [00:12:03] MMS: Yes, yes. Billings is a lovely town. I was there for about seven years, I think. And then I was asked to go to St. Joseph Hospital in Denver for a year and to take some courses at Regis College, I think. And at that point in time they asked me to get prepared in some of the math courses and that sort of thing. And then the next year I was assigned to go to St. Louis University, and I got my education and master's in Health Services Administration. JK: Ok. So, did you like your program at St. Louis U? [00:12:52] MMS: Yes. Yes. I really have liked just about everything I've had to do, and I just would kind of roll with the punches, you know. I guess that came from Chapell, Nebraska. (Laughter) JK: That's right. (Laughs) How did you decide to go…? Well, you were kind of heading toward hospital administration, but how did you decide to go fully into it? [00:13:20] MMS: I really didn't decide. It was kind of decided for me. At that point in time we were asked if we would consider that, and so I was asked to go to school and get my master's in hospital administration so I did that. So, it wasn't my choice. JK: Right. MMS: It was my challenge. JK: So, one of your early experiences was as assistant administrator for St. John's Hospital in Santa Monica. MMS: Yes. JK: What did you learn from this experience, and how did it prepare you for your later role? [00:14:00] MMS: Well, I was in California for 41 years and I loved every minute of it. And when I got there in 1968 as an assistant administrator to Sister Mary Eloise Paul (phonetic) I was assigned to be in charge of the Respiratory Therapy Department. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 7 of 16 And then as the years went on between '68 and '73 I started going to medical staff committee meetings and was allowed to sit in on board meetings and things like that. So, Sister was kind of helping me along to get acquainted with a broader picture. JK: She was. MMS: Yes. JK: That's great. MMS: Yes. JK: Yes. So, when did you become the director of the hospital? [00:14:45] MMS: Well, the title at that point in time, in 1973, was executive director, but it was one of the times during our lifetime in constant change. But we were looking for executive directors and CEOs and presidents, and the community was trying to get things organized so that we all would be in sync in our many hospitals across the country. So, it was kind of an evolutionary flow. But it finally ended up with being president and CEO. JK: You must have appreciated the fact that you were a Sister at that point because in the nonreligious world women, despite the fact that… well, the Women's Movement kind of began in 1969 but in 1973 women weren't in leadership positions such as you were. [00:15:39] MMS: I really didn't think about that. JK: You didn't think about it. MMS: No. JK: Interesting. MMS: I really didn't. I just didn't. (Laughs) JK: Yes, interesting. So, you were in Santa Monica. MMS: Yes. JK: So, you must have run into a lot of celebrities of one sort or another. [00:15:56] MMS: We did. We had a lot of people who supported St. John's over the years and were very good to us. Mr. Sinatra had some programs for St. Johns. And Jimmy Stewart and his wife, Gloria, were on our board of directors for a period of time. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 8 of 16 JK: Oh, really? MMS: Yes. And Irene Dunne, and most of the people listening to this won't even know who I'm talking about because they're so long ago, but Irene Dunne was one of the people who really helped St. John's get started. She helped our Sister Mary David especially to get St. John's moving and raise money for St. John's etc. We've been blessed with good friends and many, many wonderful lay people. We've had so many wonderful lay people on our boards and in our foundations over the years, so it was an exciting time to be with people. JK: It must have been. MMS: Yes, it was. And I really enjoyed getting to know them and working with them. JK: So, what was Frank Sinatra like? [00:16:56] MMS: Around us he was very nice. (Laughter) MMS: I guess he has another history. JK: I think so, yes. MMS: I remember particularly R.J. Wagner who was very good to St. John's too, and he had just become acquainted with St. John's, oh, many, many years ago. JK: Is that Robert Wagner? [00:17:20] MMS: R.J. Wagner, Robert Wagner, uh-huh. One morning he called… They called me to come down to the Emergency Room that he was down there and his mother was a patient, and his mother died right in front of us. JK: Oh, no. MMS: And poor old R.J. was shaken but her eyes were wide open. So, I closed her eyes and I said a prayer with him and then we kind of helped him to… He had never been faced (phonetic) with something like that really. He was pretty busy in his career and that sort of thing. It seemed to help him. So, years later he wrote a book and of course the book contained many of his activities as a younger person. He was a real ladies man etc., etc. And one day one of the people who worked with me at Seton Center was reading his book and my name was in it. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 9 of 16 JK: Oh really? [00:18:16] MMS: She poked her husband and she said, "Bill, Bill. Look at this. Sister's name is in here." And so R.J. put the incident of closing his mother's eyes into his book. So, I think something touched him. JK: Yes, obviously. MMS: I think the Holy Spirit. JK: Right. And who were some of the other people you mentioned? [00:18:37] MMS: Oh, I don't know. There were so many that were so good to us and most of them really weren't high powered, but Mr. Campion... People who worked in big business in California were good to St. John's. Conrad Hilton, I mentioned before, Baron Hilton. Some of the people in the city who were prominent were always very good to St. John's and assisted us on boards and in the foundation. JK: That's good. So, in 1994, I think, the Northridge earthquake took place. MMS: Sure did. JK: So, can you describe the earthquake and its affect on the hospital? [00:19:20] MMS: Ok. Well, I wasn't home the morning of the earthquake. I was back here in Leavenworth for a board meeting. And my COO called that morning and said, "Sister, this is a terrible earthquake. You'd better come home." So, I finally got home about six o'clock in the evening. And I drove from the airport back to the hospital. And I drove around the hospital and it was severely damaged. Our entire north wing was severely damaged. They had to evacuate the nursery. We had babies in intensive units. They evacuated all the people into our main wing for security purposes. The elevators weren't working so the men had to carry patients from the fifth floor downstairs into another wing of the hospital. So, people were truly heroic and so thoughtful and so good. And they just all stood up and were counted. It's amazing how brave we can be when we're called to do that. So, anyhow, the hospital, as I said, was severely damaged. And the inspectors from California came down right away, and they said that you have to close the hospital… JK: The whole hospital. MMS: …and rehab this facility. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 10 of 16 JK: So, during that period of time we had to let all of our employees go. JK: Oh, really. JK: So, we had over 600 people, and we gave them all their benefits and all their payment and that sort of thing. And that was in about May, I think, or maybe earlier, that all of our employees were going. And the only facility that remained open during that time was the John Wayne Cancer Institute which was housed in the building across the street. And so they were able to carry on their clinics and their activity during this time. But those were the John Wayne employees that were there and all of ours were gone. JK: Where did you send your patients? [00:21:24] MMS: Where did we send them? We had to have them evacuated to… Many went to Cedars. Many went to UCLA. Many went to Daniel Freeman. It was a whole day of evacuating the patients from the hospital. The ambulances were lined up. And it was well-organized. I must say that, you know. We were God blessed that everything went as well as it did. And nobody was killed or injured at St. John's during that time. JK: That's good. MMS: Yes. It was very good. So, during the summer… I'll just continue for a minute. JK: Please. MMS: During the summer our COO and our personnel director and our finance person and the leadership team of St. John's were working, and we were getting ready to reopen as the hospital was being prepared to close down and to raze the north wing. So, we finally were stabilized and were able to reopen the hospital in September of 1974, and on that day 69 percent of the people who came back were the people we had to let go. JK: Oh, that's great. MMS: Yes. They wanted to come home. I'm rambling. (Laughs) JK: So, you had to do a lot of fundraising, right? [00:22:48] MMS: Yes, we did. Yes we did. JK: And in a short time. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 11 of 16 MMS: Yes. Well, you know there was a period of time when people were looking at St. John's about whether we should… should we rebuild or should we move in to ambulatory care or should we do this or should we do that. And the people, our board of directors and the people who had supported us for so many years, were so anxious for us to rebuild and carry on. So Sister Mary Kathleen Stefani was our community director at that point in time, and she came out for a board meeting and she heard the passion and the desire to really rebuild and so she authorized our rebuilding and getting started to see what we could do. So, at that point in time our foundation's total effort was in raising over 100 million dollars because our first estimate of rebuilding was 150 million. Eventually, over the years, as the building went on and the raising went on the total cost of the project was around 500 million, but the 100 million got us off and started. JK: That got you back in business. MMS: It got us back in business. Yes, indeed. So, we had the architects and the building committees and the construction types and… JK: And you did all that in nine months? [00:24:07] MMS: No, not nine months. But just so many people were there to help us, you know. And the building committee evolved over that period of time, 'cause we had to get the architects, and we had to get the construction types and that sort of thing. But we had very bright guys on our committees there, the building committee, etc. etc. And they were entrepreneurs, and they were architects and construction types and that sort of thing. And they helped us to develop the vision that we had for St. John's of the future which was to be, at that point in time, a smaller hospital. At our first point in time our greatest number of patients was 551. Then over time we got down to 350 at the time of the earthquake. And when we reopened the hospital we had 300 beds. JK: And you don't need as many beds with the new… MMS: We were going through that period of time when people were looking at ambulatory care and outpatient clinics and things like that. JK: Right, right. But to get a… MMS: The medical staff was really a support in all that because we had wonderful obstetricians and cardiologists and surgeons etc. The medical staff was outstanding. Still are today. Even though there's so much transition in healthcare and so many people have to go here or to go there because the grass looked greener, our sole supporters were still there, and they just held St. John's together and helped us to grow back to become very healthy. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 12 of 16 JK: That's fantastic. One of your awards, one of many, I'm sure, cited the following: You "ensured St. John's was able to sustain a potentially devastating nine-month closure after the 1994 Northridge earthquake, and, moreover, pioneered the situation into an opportunity to build for tomorrow and improve healthcare delivery through the west side." You already answered the question about the staff. You had to let them go and I'm sure there was… but 60… MMS: 69 percent. JK: 69 percent returned, so that's phenomenal. [00:26:37] MMS: On the first day. JK: Yes. And what were some of the renovations that you did that brought the hospital into the 21st Century? [00:26:46] MMS: We had long since looked at ambulatory care and we were working with doctors in getting the offices tied in closer to St. John's. And we strengthened our orthopedic program. We strengthened our cardiology program, our cardiac surgery program, our obstetrics program, and internal medicine. We had a plethora of doctors who were truly experts. We used to tease that we were the crown jewel of the hospitals. And at that point in time Sister Marianna Bauder was at St. Joseph's in Denver and they thought they were the crown jewel. So we called St. Joseph's St. John's East and she called St. John's St. Joseph's West. So there we were. JK: (Laughs) Can you think of anything specifically that you added that was particularly forward-looking? [00:27:49] MMS: I think it was my spirit that I was not ever going to stuff up (phonetic). I mean we worked diligently to keep things moving and as people would become depressed, you know, you go through periods of up and down and that sort of thing, but we had to keep it going so we did. JK: Good. Good. MMS: It was God. (Laughter) MMS: Yes, truly. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 13 of 16 JK: That's good. So, you're back here now. It must have been sad to leave Santa Monica after being there for so many years. [00:28:23] MMS: Well, you know, there's a time when you know it's time to go. JK: Right. MMS: And when I decided it was time to move on I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I saw an ad in a paper about home nursing, and I worked with a Sister of St. Joseph in Kansas City. (Gap) MMS: It was the director of a program. Sister Loretta Marie, who was a lifelong friend, invited me to come live with her. So, I thought, well, I'll live with her and work in the home nursing. And I tried that for a while but I was uncomfortable. I didn't like going into people's homes, and I felt very uncomfortable in that work. So, Sister said, "Why don't you come work at Seton?" And I didn't know what I wanted to do at that point in time. So, she said, "I'll put you to work in the pantry." So, now I'm working in the pantry backup room. We set up all the commodity bags, and we set up the cosmetic bags, the hygiene bags. And so I'm really blessed. I'm a happy camper. JK: Oh, good. MMS: You know I work about four or five hours a day. JK: Perfect. [00:29:48] MMS: And I like what I'm doing. And I love the people we're taking care of. And I love the staff that's working with us. They're multi-national, and they're just wonderful people—truly blessed. Sometimes you go out in the parlor and you'll meet somebody sitting there, and you know they don't have two nickels to rub together. "How's everything going?" "I'm blessed." JK: That's good. It must be really gratifying to be working among the people who need that so desperately. [00:30:22] MMS: Yes, yes. I'm happy. Yes. And we do a good, good work. JK: Oh good. MMS: We served over 1800 families at Christmastime last year. JK: Do you really? �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 14 of 16 MMS: And we give them food, and we give them toys, and we give them clothing, and our volunteers are just extraordinary. They're just extraordinary. They're so helpful in everything we do. JK: So, do you give them clothing throughout the year or only at Christmas? [00:30:50] MMS: No, we have a thrift shop. It's open four days a week. And they can come in, you know, and some can come in and buy clothes for 50 cents or a dollar or two dollars or what have you. And sometimes we'll get some very wonderful clothing, and they're able to come in and buy nice things and leave the place looking like a million dollars. JK: Oh, yes. That's good. Do you think you'll ever retire? [00:31:19] MMS: Oh, I'm probably retired right now. (Laughter) JK: No, you're not. MMS: Well, I'm as close to that, I think, as I'll get. Retirement just means doing what you can with what you've got and so that's where I am. JK: And so when you joined the SCL I'm sure you didn't have any idea that you'd be heading up a large hospital. [00:31:45] MMS: I used to stand in the hallway at St. John's and say, "My God, what is somebody from Chapell, Nebraska, U.S.A. doing at St. John's in Santa Monica?" I truly did. JK: I'm sure you did. What were your career expectations when you joined the SCL? [00:32:06] MMS: I'm not sure. I don't know. At the time that I entered the community young women could be nurses or secretaries or what else? JK: Teachers. MMS: Teachers, exactly. And today they can go to the moon. So, with the declining numbers of young women they're providing service in different ways than we did at that point in time. JK: So, in a way, there are benefits. In many ways there are benefits of the new culture. [00:32:45] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 15 of 16 MMS: Absolutely. They have many opportunities. Sometimes those people having multiple opportunities and do exciting or extraordinary things. They kind of forget there's a God in charge, you know, and so you see people kind of drifting. And my hope and prayer is that when the time comes they'll come back. And I believe that especially with nieces and nephews. JK: Oh, really, yes. Yes. How has the SCL community helped you to accomplish all that you have in your life? [00:33:26] MMS: Their support, their prayers, their willingness to let me serve, their guidance. I have a wonderful community. JK: You do. That's true. Do you think you would ever have accomplished all you have working as a woman alone? [00:33:45] MMS: I don't know. I don't know. I think if that would have been my choice I would have done the best I could. So, God provides. JK: So, how did the SCLs contribute to your love of life? [00:33:59] MMS: Contribute to what? JK: To your love of life? MMS: They love life. They all love life. They're just such good people. Yes. They're prayerful, good, inspirational role models. JK: And how have you contributed to the community over the years? [00:34:24] MMS: Oh, I think I've had a spirit that's been good. Yes. I think I had a spirit. I think I still do. JK: I'm sure you still do. So many of the women that we've interviewed, well, all of them actually, seem to have that spirit. [00:34:41] MMS: Yes. You know we're going through great transitions at this point in time—what's going to happen to religious communities and where are we going etc., etc. And it's up to God, 'cause I won't be around to see where it goes, but I sure want to have the spirit to let them go. Is that it? JK: I think that's it. Yes, I think that's it. MMS: All right. JK: We didn't cover this. Why do you think fewer people enter the order today? [00:35:20] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Marie Madeleine Shonka Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 29, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 25, 2017 Page 16 of 16 MMS: The reason I said before. They have so many opportunities today, others. But they end up serving one way or another. JK: Right. Yes. MMS: So, the options are great and numerous and exciting. JK: And also in the community as well. MMS: Oh, yes. Isn't that wonderful? You know when Sisters left the teaching they were able to go into social work, and they were able to go into religious work or whatever, counseling, mentoring and that sort of thing. And so all of us have benefitted by the changes that have come along. Been a lot of battles along the way about I don't like this; I don't like that, but you know eventually we all get into the game and we roll with whatever direction we're going. JK: We didn't talk about Vatican II and the affect it had on the community and actually on you personally. [00:36:14] MMS: '68 was a … Well, I've been in religious life more in post-Vatican that I was in preVatican, and so at the time I was really kind of… I didn't know what to think. I didn't know what to think but I… As the community was making changes and we were doing things differently we adapted you know. I don't think I fought it. I think sometimes I didn't like it, but I don't think I fought it, the changes and all. So, I think I've been able to move ahead. JK: Was that true for all of your friends in the community? [00:36:55] MMS: No. We had a time in our community when sometimes if you weren't dressed as a nun you weren't really too accepted. I mean, you know, they didn't like the changes in dress or the changes in some things. But eventually God gave us all the grace to get over that and to continue on being great women. So, that's the name of the game. JK: That's true. All right. Do you have anything else you'd like to talk about? [00:37:24] MMS: No. I'm finished. I probably talked too much already. JK: No, you haven't. MMS: You'll have a hard time screening this one. (Laughter) MMS: Thank you. ### � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shonka, S. Marie Madeline Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kenamore, Jane Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MPEG Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 37:40:00 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Shonka, S. Marie Madeline, Oral History, 6/29/2017 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Cadet Nurse Corps; Nursing; Health Ministry; Northridge Earthquake, California Description An account of the resource She begins with a description of her childhood in Nebraska. She belonged to one of very few Catholic families in a small town. Because her family did not have a lot of money, when it came time to get an education, she took advantage of the Cadet Nurse Corps program. She describes meeting SCLs for the first time at her training hospital. Her admiration for their spirit and work ethic drew her to the community. Initially reluctant to be an educator, she tells of becoming the Director of the school of nursing at St. Vincent's and how she grew to love her role there. Eventually, she studied for her Masters in Health Administration and became the Executive Director of St. John's hospital in Santa Monica. She describes the great support for the hospital from the local community and the aftermath of the Northridge Earthquake. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shonka, S. Marie Madeline; Kenamore, Jane Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/29/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Shonka, S. Marie Madeline; Kenamore, Jane Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1925-2017 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b90c4684cdf1a87030d199f21238f375.PNG 46a41d0b311df2ec8f9e0abc5ace94c9 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/d411e2019c112e9662b727ac925d29db.mp3 ea2611fc68b75bb96856f7f3fc4d8bfe https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/4ffdc043e100847e35d5cc77e6eecfd8.pdf 8dbd9716db7db931c18662eb6e26ca26 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 1 of 17 JK: This interview is with Sister Margaret Hogan. The interviewer is Jane Kenamore. We're at the Sisters of Charity Mother House in Leavenworth, Kansas, and the date is June 26, 2017. Sister Margaret, where were you born and raised? [00:00:20] MH: I was born in Butte, Montana… JK: Oh, you were born in Butte. Ok. MH: …on December 10th, 1936, 12/10/36. JK: What was it like to grow up in Butte? [00:00:36] MH: One of the Sisters who grew up in Butte also, the other night we were saying what it privilege it was for us to have that Butte background, because it is one of great simplicity, but the people there are survivors and hardworking people, and we did learn the value of family, faith, and we learned how to work. JK: I'll get to the faith and work in a minute, but first can you tell us about your family, your parents and your siblings? [00:01:16] MH: My dad was a worker, was a laborer, worked in the mines for his entire life and provided well for our family and worked hard. My mother was a stay-at-home mom. And I often think of this in this day and age. I don't ever remember coming home from school, from grade school through high school, without having my mother there in the house. And I remember her saying when we were older, she said, "There were times when I wished my name was Mudd because with the five of you coming in the door and the first thing you'd be hollering, 'Mom, where are you?'" She just might be upstairs or folding laundry or doing something else. So, she was a wonderful woman as my dad was. They both worked together well and raised five children, three boys and two girls. And our faith life was very important to us. We were part of the Immaculate Conception Parish, and Mom and Dad lived there their entire married life, and they were both buried from there. And for me that's still my sacred spot. I know last December I celebrated my 80th birthday, and people kept on saying, "What do you want to do to celebrate? This is a significant birthday." And I just wanted it to be a quiet day. And, in the meantime, my nephew and his wife sent me a picture that had been photographed by one of her brothers, and it was of the church in the parish where I grew up. And I remember all day long, that was a very quiet day where I could sit and be grateful for my past and with a great deal of prayer for the future. And that church is still, for me, it's… JK: And it still is in existence? [00:03:38] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 2 of 17 MH: Oh, yes it is, and it's a magnificent structure. It was built many years ago. Probably I was at first grade, I think, maybe one of the first communion classes from there. But it still is just a very special place in my life and in the life of my family. JK: A couple of other Sisters grew up in Butte also, and I don't know if they were in the same parish as you, but they said the church was truly the center of their lives. MH: Yes. JK: They did everything. They socialized. They went to church. Everything was connected. Was it that way in your life? [00:04:26] MH: Oh, very much so. Very much so. I think that's one of the questions you asked about is significant Sisters in my life. And I think the Sister who was a BVM… Our school was taught by the Sisters of Charity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the first eight grades. And they were very special people in my life. And when I was in high school I always belonged to their, what they called a sodality at that point. JK: And what was that? [00:04:55] MH: The Sisters were always a part of that. It was just coming together for socially and just a supportive group of people. And Sister Mary Maxine was my seventh grade teacher, and she is the one that I kept in touch with for many years, and then I kind of fell out of keeping in touch with her. And then one year when I was teaching in Topeka, Kansas I received a letter from her, and she must have found my address. And so we kept in touch for many years. She died just a couple years ago. And I was always sorry I didn't get back to her Mother House to see her because she was a real strong person in my life, a very quiet person, but very affirming and very supportive as was Sister Mary Seraphim who was the principal at our high school. And she was that quiet, elegant woman who was always there for me in high school years as well as in community years. Throughout my time in religious life she was always present and always there to talk to and sometimes challenged me in many ways. JK: Oh, really. How did she do that? [00:06:18] MH: Just to be my best self. JK: Ok. MH: Yes. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 3 of 17 JK: And Sister Mary Maxine—what would you say she gave to you? [00:06:26] MH: I would say presence, just being there and affirming me for who I was. Both of those women, I think, did the same thing for me. JK: Did you have contact with them when you were making your decision to become an SCL? [00:06:46] MH: You know my decision just flowed from the inner being. I was very fond of both communities and I always thought about entering the BVMs but never did because I never did finalize it. After I graduated from high school I was still young because I was a December birthday. So I decided to work and see where it all went. And nothing, you know, not that I had anything against the BVMs but it seemed like… I went down to see Sister Mary Seraphim one night and said I wanted to enter the community, and she said, "Well, all right, Margie, I'll send all your information to Dubuque." And I said, "No. I think I want to send it to Leavenworth." So, I said, "If you get everything ready then I'll be there in August." You know at that time we had to do our aprons and our long underwear and our slips and all those things, and she was able to do all the background and I showed up. And here I am 63 years later. JK: That's wonderful. What were your expectations of living in a religious community? [00:08:11] MH: You know I did not have expectations. I think the Lord has blessed me with being open to what is today. I just knew that I wanted to be of service in a different way. I had a wonderful year working after high school, but I just always felt there was something more and as I prayed not for a vocation or anything else… But, anyway, this—it just seemed to happen. JK: And what was your first mission? [00:08:48] MH: Blessed Sacrament in Kansas City, Missouri. JK: And what did you do? [00:08:52] MH: I was a teacher of third grade. And I followed that class, third grade, fourth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade for a couple of years. JK: Wow. And how many students did you have in the class? Was it a large class? [00:09:09] MH: Oh, there were times where there wasn't room in the classroom for a teacher's desk. JK: Oh, my gosh. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 4 of 17 MH: So, it was in those days when you had a full classroom, like 40 or 50 students. JK: How did you manage those students? [00:09:27] MH: I love teaching, and I found it a wonderful opportunity to help other people, to reach into other people's lives. And, you know, in those days it was fortunate to live with other Sisters who were crackerjack teachers. So, you always had assistance if you needed further assistance as to how to handle a class or how to teach a class. And those were the good old days where you had many people who were available. JK: Do you remember any one in particular who gave you the most help or gave you a good bit of help? [00:10:09] MH: Probably not so much in those days. It was just generally all of the Sisters who lived in that community, 'cause we had studied together and we had classes on Saturday that were always helpful. So, it was just lots of good help. JK: Oh, that's good. What did you like most about being an elementary school teacher? [00:10:44] MH: I was really blessed with good principals who taught me a great deal. Probably my last years in teaching were very… I still remember… Sister Lynn Casey was my principal in Topeka. And Lynn really taught me to believe in myself as a good teacher. She affirmed my gifts very strongly and challenged me to be my best self as far as teaching was concerned. And I remember one day sitting teaching, in fact, it was a religion class, and I remember sitting on a bench in front of… doing something. I thought I no longer have to work to prove myself. I am a good teacher. And that was a wonderful feeling for me because, I think, in the past I always thought I had to compete with this person or some other person to work to be your best self, 'cause I worked with some really good teachers. JK: What were the greatest challenges? [00:12:08] MH: Just to keep up with… (Laughs) Junior high students are not easy to keep up with, but I love that age level. And I think if they're with you, they're with you, and if they're against you, they're against you. And I always felt really… And I still love to work with junior high kids in our Religious Ed. programs. I always welcome that opportunity. JK: Did you teach all the subjects in junior high? [00:12:43] MH: For some years and then towards the end of my time in teaching in school I predominantly taught English and Literature or Religion, one of the others. Once I decided to move into looking into counseling in the elementary grades, because the longer I was in school the more I realized �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 5 of 17 there was a need for counseling in the elementary schools. And we didn't have any counselors at that time. JK: It wasn't a common thing… MH: No. JK: …back then. [00:13:21] MH: No. So, then I did part-time in the junior high teaching subject matter and then part-time working in counseling with the little people, and that was a great balance for me. It was kind of fun to be able to work with big kids as well as little kids. And I love teaching, and I think everything that I have done since then in my work, because I do a lot of work in parish ministry and retreat work and spiritual direction, but I have to say that the groundwork is teaching. And everything that I've done from that time on kind of has flowed from that experience. JK: What were the issues that you ran into in counseling? Where were you teaching when you went into counseling? [00:14:20] MH: Most Pure Heart in Topeka. JK: Oh, ok. And what were the issues that the children were dealing with? [00:14:28] MH: I think at that point just helping people to believe in themselves in their own personal dignity and self-concept always and then to work with parents on being consistent in how they handle children and teachers as well. Sometimes what a child would do on Monday may not begin to bother a teacher until Friday when they were tired. So, just to kind of work in that area of understanding why we do what we do and how we do it. JK: That's interesting. Did you ever have a teacher and a student together or a parent and a student together? [00:15:21] MH: Sometimes, yes. JK: Was that effective? [00:15:25] MH: Usually. I mean, yes. That's why you brought them together to help it be effective. Yes. JK: How long were you in counseling then? [00:15:40] MH: I have a degree in counseling in 1977, I think. So, I did the counseling in the school for probably three years, and then I did some counseling when I moved back to Montana in the junior high. But most of my work was in religion when I was at North Central in Butte. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 6 of 17 JK: Oh, ok. Let's back up. Not too long after you joined the SCLs Vatican II instituted many changes in religious practices and in life in general. Which changes did you welcome? [00:16:39] MH: You know I was very fortunate to be in parishes where Vatican II was brought in carefully, and we had the opportunity to study and to become a part of that process. So, for me it was not a negative experience at all. It was a learning experience. It was always growth-filled. And I had the opportunity to be a part of it, to be a part of the liturgical growth in our church. And I worked with some wonderful priests and Sisters and also made myself available to all the ongoing education that was happening at that time. So, it wasn't a negative experience for me. JK: No, no. Which changes did you welcome? What were some of the specific changes that meant the most? [00:17:42] MH: Oh, the changes in the liturgy especially. JK: In the liturgy. MH: Yes. JK: Like what, for instance? [00:17:46] MH: The Mass in English. The opportunity for lay people to be involved in liturgical planning, carrying out the ministries in the liturgy, the greater emphasis on the sacraments, especially the Sacrament of the Sick. Of course, I do a lot of work with hospital visiting and hospice work, and I feel like that sacrament is just so important in our life and sometimes we don't give it the attention that it needs to be given. JK: So, how was it less important prior to Vatican II? [00:18:27] MH: I think we saw the Sacrament of the Sick only given when you're really close to death. JK: Oh, I see. MH: And the Sacrament of the Sick now is given… You know I find people in our parish now, for instance, and in the past that if they're going into have surgery they invite their family and their close friends to come and celebrate that sacrament with them, and it gives them the courage and the health to move forward with a greater strength. JK: But some of these changes were difficult for some people to accept. What changes were more difficult to accept for some people, not for you? [00:19:19] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 7 of 17 MH: Well, I'm sure the changes in the liturgy were very difficult for some people. I know for my mom it was the greatest thing where she could take a hat off. I could just see her throwing it into the back of the car and she never had to put it on again. JK: (Laughs) That's right. Because everybody wore hats. [00:19:46] MH: Everybody wore hats, but my mother was very happy to take the hat off. JK: So, what were some other changes like that? [00:19:55] MH: I'd have to think a little bit harder. That was a humorous one that I can think of. JK: Right. That's good. That's good. So, your mom was happy with at least the hat change. (Laughs) [00:20:18] MH: My mother was… she loved everything about the church and the changes were welcome to her as well as to my dad. JK: So, she was probably a flexible person to begin with. [00:20:31] MH: Oh, yes. And people loved her and she loved them. And there was no judgment in her. JK: Oh, that's good. In the 1980s you moved into parish ministry. Where were you assigned, and what did you do? [00:20:53] MH: I'm still in parish ministry, and I moved to… I was in Butte from 1980 to 1983. And then 1983 I moved to the parish where I work now. JK: Oh, my goodness. MH: I work in a parish and I do home visiting. I do hospital visiting. I do spiritual direction. I do a little bit of everything. And the first year I came there the priest that I came with was a classmate of mine from… and we both moved in the same year in 1983. And so I worked with Father Ray Gilmore for 16 years, and then he left to take a new assignment, and then eventually died very quickly. And then Father Jack Darragh came, and he was in Hamilton for 12 years, and I worked with him for those 12 years. And, of course, if somebody's been there a long time you end up… They had not had a Sister before, so a lot of what was happening were things that I had developed. And then Father Darragh was there for 12 years and retired. And we have a priest there now, Father Jim Connor, who is there now. And I'm still there. JK: And you're still there. [00:22:24] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 8 of 17 MH: Yes. And I'm also a spiritual director and I've had the opportunity of being trained in Jesuit spirituality at Creighton University. So my master's is in Christian Spirituality with a retreat emphasis. So, several years after I was there, the parish, diocesan parish, but staffed by Jesuits, who were starting the spiritual exercises in everyday life, and they asked me if I would be willing to mentor some of their spiritual directors. So, I've been doing that for more than 20 years also. And I kind of have a day once a month that I either go into Missoula for the mentoring and on the days that I don't do that, on the Wednesdays that I don't do that, I work in our food pantry, which is also a wonderful opportunity 'cause I work with people who do a marvelous job, and they're all volunteer men and women. So, it's my outreach day. JK: Oh, that's good. MH: Yes. JK: Are there any other SCLs working in the same area as you? [00:23:48] MH: No. JK: No. So you're by yourself. MH: Sister Mary Jo Quinn lives in Missoula which is 44 miles from where I live, so we do get together often. And then there are Sisters in Helena and Butte. You know I've had some wonderful community experiences, and I know some of the questions come after that, but I have to say it now in case you don't ask it. When I had the opportunity to go to Hamilton I knew I would be living by myself which is not the most appealing thing in the world. But I could not have done it if I did not have such good community experiences and especially in Topeka and Butte and Kansas City. I really have a lot of affirmation and I have a lot of support. And I make great effort to keep in touch with our Sisters who live in the area as well as friends that are here in Kansas. So, I don't feel like I'm separated from community. JK: That's good. MH: Yes. JK: And then you have other connections in town, not Sisters but surely people that you have worked with for a long time. [00:25:09] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 9 of 17 MH: The lay people are just… I guess that's why I'm (inaudible) 33 years. They're marvelous people. And I think that's another thing the Vatican Council did for us. The lay people are able to do their part in the church. And we have a parish where they really do their part. JK: That's great. MH: Yes. JK: What have you enjoyed most about parish ministry? [00:25:37] MH: Oh, I think for me working with people and seeing their generosity not only in parish work but on hospital boards which I'm on. I've been on two of our hospital boards of the community. And seeing the generosity of those men and women who gather every month on a hospital board is just a profound experience. JK: What other specific experiences have you noted that have been really rewarding in parish ministry? [00:26:26] MH: Again, the Sacrament of the Sick has been extremely important to me, to be with people in their hospice days. We're seeing how much they hunger and thirst for that, even people who have been away from the church for a long time. The grace of that sacrament has touched me deeply. JK: Oh, that's good. Now, you work with the priests. Do they also…? [00:27:04] MH: They better. (Laughter) JK: Or is it mainly your job to visit the sick? [00:27:12] MH: I try to bring them into it. The first two were really… that was their gift, especially the second one. He's retired now, but he does hospital ministry better than anybody I've ever worked with. JK: Oh, really. MH: And if you called him at four o'clock in the morning he'd be there at 4:05. The present priest I think tries really hard and he does, but not as genuinely as I'd like to see it happen. (Laughter) JK: We won't tell anyone, especially him. [00:27:54] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 10 of 17 MH: You don't have to put that on that board. No, he's very good, but because I'm usually the first one at the hospital… But I make a real effort to be sure to include him in anything because we can't do that. But I can certainly see that this is the time where this person really needs that sacrament. So, no matter what time of the day it is, I do call and it's in God's hands once I've tried to… JK: If he's not able to come can you…? [00:28:40] MH: No. JK: You can't. MH: No. The Sacrament of the Sick is reserved to the priest. JK: Oh, not even in an emergency. [00:28:51] MH: Not even in an emergency. JK: Oh. Ok. So, that's one thing Vatican II forgot to do, right? [00:28:59] MH: You know I often think the more I've done this kind of work it's like it would be nice to be able to do that because there are times when… And Father's really good if I tell him somebody's there the present priest is someone… I'd say, Jim, so-and-so is in the hospital and I think this is really important that they have the Sacrament of the Sick. He will honor that, and I think just because I… I usually find myself going to our hospital every day, and because when you're there that long you know some of these people over the years. And I've been there since 1983, so. JK: Despite living a distance from the community you're very much a part of the community. How has it helped you over the years, especially in the years that you really have been living mostly separately from the community? [00:30:11] MH: I'm living in a dwelling that isn't part of a house, but I'd have to say I bet I have more community spirit than some living in houses with several people. That's a judgment on my part, I know. (Laughter) MH: I really do keep in touch with people and I welcome people to come. I live in a beautiful place, and I have access to some very nice places where people can come and retreat or relax or renew, whatever you want to call it. And the people are very generous in offering hospitality. So, I think it's been a two-way street for us. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 11 of 17 JK: That's good. So, you have friends in your area that offer hospitality to the Sisters? [00:31:11] MH: Yes. JK: Oh. That's nice. MH: It has been very nice and some very nice places as well. JK: Oh, really. That's even better. How is prayer reflected on the community and on yourself as well? [00:31:20] MH: You can't be a spiritual director if you're not willing to enter into the process yourself, so prayer is extremely important to me. Eucharist is extremely important to me, and there's seldom a day that I don't celebrate Eucharist in the parish. And I miss it when we don't have… you know if Father's away or something of that nature. But prayer is my life. JK: And what have you learned from living alone geographically? [00:32:19] MH: I know. I think the importance of being in touch. People can choose to live alone as a getaway. People can choose to live alone and yet not be lonely. And I think there are times where you have to… I don't feel that loneliness because I think I'm connected with other people, and I certainly avail myself to be with them. Whenever I've done some work with our deacons in their formation program and one of our Sisters worked… we both were a part of it, so that was a fun experience to go through those five years of preparation. But each month I met not only with the deacons and their wives but also with the Sister that was part of the process. And that was nice. JK: That's good. Can you give some specific examples of working with them? [00:33:31] MH: With the deacons? JK: Yes. MH: Oh, they were a tremendous group. We are so blessed in our diocese to have these last 20 men and women, and the women of course had to go through… not had. I mean they had to but they profited so much from the opportunities. And it's sort of like after being an eighth grade teacher for so long, I always feel so excited when I look up in the sanctuary at a big Chrism Mass or something and one of the deacons who was ordained from that group is one of the deacons at the Mass. I feel a certain sense of pride in them because I'm partially responsible. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 12 of 17 JK: That's right. Now, were the deacons some of whom can be, I mean, married right? [00:34:28] MH: Oh, yes. They're all married. JK: Was that a change with Vatican II or did that exist before? [00:34:34] MH: These are the (inaudible). I don't know how to explain it to you exactly. But before ordination to priesthood they go through a deacon, but these are not permanent. These are permanent deacons now, and they were already married before they… JK: Right. But they're going to be deacons forever. MH: Yes. JK: They're not going on into the priesthood. [00:35:00] MH: No. Oh, no. JK: That's what I understood. MH: No, no. JK: So, did the church always accept married deacons then? [00:35:12] MH: No. JK: They were going to be deacons permanently, not going into the priesthood. [00:35:17] MH: I don't know about the word "always" there, but we have had deacon formation in our diocese for a long time. JK: That has existed. I see. Ok, thank you. MH: But this group was a special group. JK: Oh good. MH: They were wonderful. JK: What have been the joys of being an SCL over your entire adult life? Would you have ever done anything differently? [00:35:47] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 13 of 17 MH: You know I've been blessed with the choice but I think it was up to God. Some doors closed and other doors opened, you know. My plans were never to go from being a teacher to a counselor to a spiritual director to an assistant in a parish. But God's been there and that's why. I never had any definite plans. I'm sure if I didn't follow that first call that my life would be different but I don't know how because I didn't choose another path. JK: What have you gained from being in the community even though geographically you're somewhat distanced from it? [00:36:38] MH: Oh, I've had a rich support and affirmation of who I am. I've been very well educated. I know that when I moved back to Montana one of the things that came to me as I was praying about this was I've had years of enrichment professionally, psychologically, but there was something within me that was calling me back to my rootedness in my faith life and I went back. My mom and dad were still alive and they weren't in illness so I didn't go back to take care of them, but it was wonderful being around them for those three years and just being present in their life. And I had a brother that lived in St. Louis, and so I used to see him more often when I was in this part of the country, but he died a couple of years ago. So I have three brothers. I have one brother now living and one sister living and her family and my brother's family. So, I still have lots of folks in Butte. JK: Oh, that's good. Have there been any challenges in living in the community? [00:38:08] MH: I've lived in some really good community experiences. They weren't always easy. We always had to think things… You know we lived in a… when you were going to be losing teachers in school and we had to go through discernment as to how to do this. They weren't always easy days but they were good days. JK: Thank you. In the 1950s, '40s and '50s, religious orders were huge. And today there are not as many women entering the orders. What do you think caused this change? [00:38:57] MH: Life. I don't know. I guess I don't worry about it so much. Of course I was part of a big group of people and there are still 11 or 12 of us in the community alive. Not all well but alive. And it's hard to say. You know when I read your question it's hard to diagnose that and to see where we are and what we're going to do about that. I think there's a need for a lot of creativity, and I think that's what our meetings this next week are about, to kind of look and see where we are and where we're going. But it's hard to know at this point. JK: Do you have any creative thoughts about it? [00:40:02] MH: I keep working at it. I'm in a study group with some really wonderful women, and we all are constantly trying to think creatively and future-oriented. But, again, I have to be grateful for the today. And I didn't know in 1955 that when I entered the community that we would be down �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 14 of 17 to the fewer numbers that we are today. But I guess there's always hope and there's always life, and we have some really good leadership and I trust their leadership. Those that have gone before us worked really hard and those that are with us today are still working really hard. JK: Yes, they are. (Laughs) MH: Yes. JK: No one retires as I can tell. What is the future of SCL as you see it? [00:41:23] MH: That's what I mean. I think you just have that hope that we know but we don't know. It's not clear. JK: Right. MH: And I think it's always there's a little bit of grieving of what we have to let go of and yet a little bit of hope for what is to come. But I'm sure Mother Xavier felt that same thing. JK: She probably did. MH: Yes. JK: She probably did. Do you have anything you'd like to add that we haven't talked about? [00:42:03] MH: I don't know. I just think that I have been well-nourished through family and friends, community, faith, the community that I serve now in the church, the opportunities that are mine to ministry. And I have so many opportunities. And I just pray for the grace to be able to respond to these opportunities. JK: Thank you so much. Frank, did you have any…? [00:42:37] FD: Actually I do have a question. JK: Ok. FD: You were talking about the Sacrament of the Sick, and was that… Sometimes we have sick members in our family, and I guess I'd be reluctant to use it because I'd think that they would think that, oh… I mean if it was before an operation they might think, oh… [00:43:00] MH: I'm going to die. FD: Right. Why are they doing this? They look at it as last rites. I'd be afraid to… �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 15 of 17 MH: See, we used to call it that. We've learned that lesson, I mean, in our formation so well, so that we're reluctant. I remember a young woman and it wasn't too long ago. It was just last year in fact. She had a slight stroke and she was in the hospital. And she was afraid of the stroke and her husband was afraid. And I remember Father came in, and the family really wanted her to have the Sacrament of the Sick, especially her husband because he understood it. But I remember the fear on her face, 'cause her only experience of that sacrament was when her mother was dying. And she just had this… and I said, "No, Nance. No. It's ok. This is to help give you strength and healing, not that you're going to die. You're ok." But that is a fear, but we taught that. FD: That's the Sacrament of Extreme Unction, right? [00:44:22] MH: Actually that's changed a lot. Now it's called the Sacrament of the Sick. FD: Ok. It used to be called… MH: And so we used to call... the last rites. And if you noticed when you said can't you do that, the priest, because a lot of times that was so administered and that's when they also made a confession. See. JK: Oh, I see. MH: So, you gave the last rites. And people confessed their sins and then they had the Blessing of the Oils. When I see people who are going to surgery and they say, "Father, is it ok if we have the Sacrament of the Sick after Wednesday morning Mass because my prayer group will be here, and they have their family and their prayer group and it's such a healing experience. FD: Are you saying that you should have it before surgery or after? [00:45:20] MH: Yes, before. FD: Ok. MH: Yes. To give you the strength and the healing already. FD: Yes, I see. MH: I know for me it was really important. I had a slight stroke two years ago, and, thank God, I'm doing well, but it was scary. But it was so important to have that Sacrament of the Sick for me. And when Father came as soon as he heard I was in the hospital and he said, "Do you want the Sacrament of the Sick?" And I said, "Please." I can use any strength I can get right now. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 16 of 17 FD: Can you give that more than once? [00:46:07] MH: Yes, over and over again. Somebody will say to me, "I had that sacrament last month." And I say, "It's ok. Have it again." (Laughter) MH: The more strength we can get the better off we are. No, but we did… It was that last rites, and you were reluctant to call until you knew they just had ten more breaths left. FD: That's what happened to my father. [00:46:37] MH: No, I encourage people. This is a good time for you to have this sacrament before you're going in for your chemotherapy treatment. JK: Thank you. MH: If you have any other questions… I'm sorry if I rambled a lot. JK: No, you didn't ramble at all. MH: I did try to… JK: No. MH: I did try to read those questions but I thought I'm not a high school teacher. I have one experience with that. (Laughter) JK: I must have read that one experience in your mission card (phonetic). [00:47:14] MH: I had to laugh though. I taught junior high and I really loved that age level. And I was going to teach at North Central. I don't know if you've met Sister Anita Sullivan. She was another wonderful principal who I would like to mention. She was so good. But, anyway, they called me. I was directing a 30-day retreat in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. And Nits (phonetic) said, "Margie, I just have one question to ask you." She said they really do need a religion teacher, a theology teacher, for one sophomore class at the high school which is only a few blocks from where our junior high was. And she said, "Would you be willing to teach that class if we can arrange your schedule so that you can get there and back?" And I thought about it. And I thought, if not, why not? Why not me? So, I said yes to that. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Margaret Hogan Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 26, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, August 2, 2017 Page 17 of 17 They were sophomores, and the other teacher, one of our Sisters, was not a very good disciplinarian. A wonderful person and they loved her. I mean they loved her. She used to play with the guitar in her hand and everything. I don't play guitar. And I expected sophomores to listen to me. And so I taught that whole year. But I'm telling you, I used to be in agony going up and down, 'cause I'd leave these wonderful junior high kids who loved theology and they loved religion and I'd go down to these kids. But you know you'd see them on the street and they'd say, "Hi, Sister Margaret." And on St. Patrick's Day they'd be out there at the parade hollering "Hi, Sister." But I said at the end of that year you're going to have to pay me big bucks if you want me to ever do that again or else I'll have to be full-time on that staff so that I can bring discipline to it. JK: So, what year was that? [00:49:26] MH: It would have been 1981. JK: Ok. So, it was after the '60s. MH: Yes. JK: There were a lot of changes that came about with kids. (Laughs) [00:49:39] MH: I'm telling you. But these kids, they will remind you that you taught me as a sophomore. And I thought, oh, dear God, don't remember. I remember asking the principal of the high school, I said, "Why don't you come and sit in my class? I want you to be there. I want you to see what I have to put up with." But it was a learning experience. I would not choose to teach sophomores ever again. JK: (Laughs) Ok. Thank you. MH: Thank you very much. I hope I didn't take your whole time. ### � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hogan, S. Margaret Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kenamore, Jane Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MPEG Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 37:40:00 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hogan, S. Margaret, Oral History, 6/26/2017 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth; Teaching; Parish Ministry; Vatican II Description An account of the resource She tells stories about growing up in Butte, Montana. She discusses her career in teaching in depth as well as her later parish work. She also speaks about her impressions of the changes from Vatican II. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hogan, S. Margaret; Kenamore, Jane Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/26/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Hogan, S. Margaret; Kenamore, Jane Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1936-2017 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Audios Education Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/e7d423746b612934b6aa582f39932577.PNG 9895188b913e1d60f14980bd7099b7ff https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/d348782f0051d1a23f181dbdeee554c7.mp3 a5d25f8c889aa6d2509bfbd7cdc120c0 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f143babda00908c8121b6097b57d12bb.pdf 87d7bce1fd042e19e1202c7079825691 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 1 of 19 JK: This interview is with Sister Mary Denise Sternizke. The interviewer is Jane Kenamore, and we are at the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Mother House in Leavenworth, Kansas. The date is June 28th, 2017. Sister Mary Denise, I love that name, by the way. It's beautiful. Sister Mary Denise, when and where were you born? [00:00:26] MDS: I was born in 1922 in Sedalia, Missouri. JK: Oh, ok. Can you tell us about your parents and how they influenced you over the years? [00:39:00] MDS: My dad, Leo Sternizke, worked in the offices of the MKT or Katy Railroad, and I think my mother must have been doing secretarial work or something, but that's where they met. And my dad was an ardent Catholic. Mother is a convert, but she was a good convert. I mean she really converted. And after one year, because when the Katy offices moved we moved too. So, we moved to Boonville, Missouri, were there for about eight years. And then they moved the offices to Parsons, Kansas, so we moved to Parsons, Kansas, and that's where I lived for the eight years before I entered the Sisters of Charity. JK: And did you enter the Sisters of Charity right out of high school? [00:01:36] MDS: Yes, I did. JK: You did. MDS: Yes. JK: And what attracted you to religious life? [00:01:42] MDS: I think my vocation to religious life started three days after I was born. My father took me to be baptized. He wasn't taking any chances. He's going to have his daughter baptized right away, and in those days you didn't have a big ceremony. I mean it was just the sponsors. And when the sponsors had left my dad picked me up, took me over the Blessed Mother's alter and offered me to her. JK: Really. MDS: That was a pretty big thing. I never knew that until the day I said, "Dad, I want to be a Sister." And then he told me that. JK: Oh, my goodness. That is very interesting. [00:02:27] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 2 of 19 MDS: And I know that he was the happiest person on earth at that point. My mother didn't take it quite so (laughs)… quite so calmly, but, you know, it evolved and got better and better, our relationship and finally she was actually happy that I did that. JK: Oh, good. Good. How long did it take your mom to accept your entering the SCL community? [00:02:59] MDS: Well, she came up with me to visit, to see the place and see if that's what I really wanted, and she was very good about it. And, you know, as the community evolved ,that is, in changing habits and all that, she liked that and there was a lot more freedom and getting to go visit them. So, by the time we had gotten pretty close to the end of our lives, why, she was very happy that I had done it. JK: Oh, good. That's good. Like many other new members of the community you spent your early years teaching in grade school and elementary school. MDS: Yes. JK: So, first you taught in the lower grades, is that right? [00:03:53] MDS: Yes, I did. I started out in the third. Then I had first and second, and then went onto to the sixth to eighth (phonetic) group. JK: And how many years were involved in that? [00:04:06] MDS: It was about six years, you know. JK: Oh, ok. Ok. And, let's see, you went to Denver? [00:04:16] MDS: Those are all correct. My elementary… there was Denver, and St. Mary's is right but not Topeka and Billings. JK: Oh, ok. MDS: Those were high school. JK: Oh, those were high school. Ok. How were your experiences…? Since you had never taught before how did you deal with this? [00:04:36] MDS: Teaching was not my choice. I wanted medical technology. JK: Oh, you did. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 3 of 19 MDS: I did very much. But in the community you do what the community needs, you know. And I had never been around children of that age. I mean I had no particular rapport with them. All I had was one brother and he was just three years younger, and we didn't babysit in those days. And I can say I did not like teaching in the elementary. I mean I just didn't feel comfortable with people that age. It was a whole different story when I got with teenagers. JK: Oh, was it? [00:05:22] MDS: Oh, yes. Loved them; loved them. JK: Oh, good. So, then you did go on and teach in high school, and where did you teach there? [00:05:33] MDS: I taught in all of our high schools except about three. My longest stretch was in Topeka, but I also taught in all three of the Kansas Cities—Missouri, Kansas, and North Kansas City— and Falls City, Nebraska, Billings, Montana, Denver. JK: Where was your favorite place to teach? [00:06:01] MDS: I think St. Pius X in North Kansas City. JK: Oh, really? MDS: I think so. JK: And what did you like about that? [00:06:07] MDS: The students were students for one thing. I mean it was very academically oriented. And there was no such thing as any problem with discipline. Their parents were behind them and they were good students. In my sophomore class the top 20, if you can believe it, academically were boys except for one girl. JK: Really. MDS: That's unusual. I mean girls at those ages usually outshine the boys. JK: Right. What were you teaching at that time? [00:06:48] MDS: Different levels of mathematics—one, two, three and four—and chemistry. JK: Upper math… MDS: Yes. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 4 of 19 JK: …was more boy oriented at that time. MDS: That's what they say, but, you know, in one school where I had too large a class for a fourth year math we had four rows of boys and one whole row of girls. JK: Did you? MDS: Yes. When they're good they're very good. JK: That's good. So, you were saying earlier that teaching math has changed drastically over the years. Can you tell a little bit about that? [00:07:32] MDS: Can I just lump the math and chemistry together because the same things have happened. In the span of time that I was teaching those courses the subject matter and the method of teaching changed radically, probably more in chemistry than in math. But people don't realize that mathematics research is going on at a great rate at the same time. It starts at the universities and then trickles down. And the people teaching are going to have to change with it and that means continual education. And I was very lucky in math. The community sent me to Notre Dame as soon as I got my bachelor's degree and I spent the summers there, taught in the winters. And I got my master's in mathematics in the summer of 1955, I think it was, and then continued teaching in the high schools. And as far as chemistry is concerned it changed even more radically and it required even more preparation on the part of teachers. And the thing was that the college chemistry teachers were saying that high school students are not prepared for college chemistry. So, that meant the high school chemistry had to be revised and really revised from being descriptive chemistry to theoretical chemistry, and that's harder for both the teacher and the student. JK: And can you define descriptive chemistry and theoretical? [00:09:25] MDS: Kind of. If I said to you today we will study sulfur. Sulfur is yellow. Things like that that describe the element, not so much what they do. And then the theoretical part was based almost, not entirely, but more on energy and energy changes and it was more difficult. And so the teachers really had to go back to school, and we would be getting things in the summertime. Well, my master's degree from Notre Dame gave me a big head start on the mathematics, although I did take some other courses later. But the National Science Foundation came to the rescue and offered a large number of summer fellowships in the sciences. And what you had to do is to apply for one and if you got it then you had a free ride for that summer to study. I had �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 5 of 19 one in physics at Seattle U. I had one in chemistry at St. Louis University. I had one in math at Brown University and another one at Notre Dame one time. JK: Oh, my gosh. MDS: So, by that time I had a much better science background although I still took some work later on. And teachers just had to do that if they were going to present the material that was in text books. JK: Right. And when was this big change? I mean I'm sure it was over several years but when was the…? [00:11:11] MDS: Yes it did. It evolved. It evolved. JK: What was that time period? [00:11:15] MDS: I got my master's degree in '55, 1955. The years following that, and it wasn't just one year, I mean. It was a continual thing. And every summer or before the summer the National Science Foundation would print a booklet of what was being offered, and then you could pick out what you needed and apply for that, and if you got it, that was it. You went. JK: That's great. That was kind of post-Sputnik, so there was a lot of emphasis on science and math during that period. [00:11:54] MDS: Yes, yes, because it was changing so much, I think. JK: So, overall, did you teach in a girl's school too? [00:12:06] MDS: No. JK: So you always… MDS: One year when I taught, when we still had an academy here, and that was all girls, I taught one chemistry class there. JK: Oh, just one. [00:12:17] MDS: Yes. Because I was studying at the same time. JK: Oh, ok. So, that wasn't a very sizable experience but how did the girls in the all girls environment do as opposed to the girls in the co-ed environment? [00:12:38] MDS: Well, I think people think they're supposed to… �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 6 of 19 JK: Right. MDS: …because the boys seem to take dominance in those subjects. But one of my challenges, and one that I was really dedicated to, was to get more girls into the field, to really like and want to go on in mathematics. And it was a real reward for me to get someone who was scared to death to take a math course to get over that. I even met that at the college. They had one math course required and there were people who left it to their senior year hoping it would evaporate or something. And that was a great reward for me to be able to get them over that hump of feeling that way. And I understood it because when I was in high school my lowest grades were in math until my senior year. JK: Oh, really. [00:13:45] MDS: I just kept taking it to keep my dad happy because he's the one that really taught me to think. And if it hadn't been for that I might never have made the master's degree in mathematics. But I never could just get the answer. I had to know why. And that really helped me. So, I could transfer that to other girls, you know, to try to make them see that they could be just as good in math as boys. And we really came out with some good ones. JK: Oh, that's good. And what about your love of chemistry? Where did you pick that up? [00:14:23] MDS: That's what I really wanted to major in. I just fell in love in chemistry even before I took it. (Laughs) And when I did, why, it was just what I wanted. JK: Which high school and college did you go to? [00:14:42] MDS: St. Mary. JK: You went to St. Mary here. MDS: What is the University of St. Mary now was St. Mary College is where I got my bachelor's degree. JK: And where did you go to high school? [00:14:53] MDS: In Parsons, Kansas. JK: Oh, ok. Ok. So, you must have had good teachers along the way. MDS: Pardon. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 7 of 19 JK: You must have had good teachers along the way. [00:15:06] MDS: I did have some very good teachers. JK: And were they Sisters or not? [00:15:10] MDS: No. I was in a public high school. JK: Oh, you were in public high school. MDS: Uh-huh. JK: Ok. MDS: And we did have good teachers, and we did have good discipline. JK: Oh, that's good. Yes. MDS: But I always had an attraction for foreign language. I just didn't have room to get it into the schedule, you know. So, I was happy when I was able to take German here, and that was because I was looking at medical technology. German would have been a requirement. JK: Did you ever consider being a doctor as opposed to…? MDS: Oh, yes. I did. That's what I really wanted to do. My mother convinced me that no one would ever have any faith in a woman doctor. JK: Oh. That's sad. MDS: So, we dropped that and went to med tech. That was… (Laughs) JK: Oh, ok. But it was true in those days. [00:16:05] MDS: In those days she was right. She would be surprised if she knew what there were today. JK: Right. Right. You also taught German. MDS: Yes. JK: And, as we discussed before the interview you're reviewing it now on your iPad. [00:16:28] MDS: I'm reviewing, yes. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 8 of 19 JK: You also said you had four chances to speak it. Can you tell about learning it and the chances you had to speak it? [00:16:40] MDS: It wasn't so much a chance to speak as to teach. What was available at the time I taught German you could get the tapes that went with the textbook. And so the students got native speakers on those. JK: Oh, that's good. MDS: And that was a big help because I hadn't had much conversation, and so I could concentrate on the other part and then use the tapes for conversation. JK: So, can you tell me about studying German on your iPad? [00:17:26] MDS: About what? JK: About studying German on your iPad. Do they have…? MDS: Oh, it isn't German. It's Russian I have on the iPad. JK: Oh, it's Russian. MDS: My German, I just brought along a text book to review with, but I found out that I know almost as much now as I knew then. I think it just sort of soaked in during the years. So, I enjoy both. JK: And have you picked up the Russian alphabet? [00:17:57] MDS: Yes. The Russian alphabet isn't as much an obstacle as people think it is. It looks terrible but actually it isn't that bad. I mean you could learn that pretty quickly. There are some things about the Russian language that are even easier than some others. For instance, there are no definite or indefinite articles. I mean no "a," "an," or "the." JK: Really. MDS: You just say, "John doctor." I mean you say, "Ivan doctor." And then you just fill in Ivan is a doctor. So, there are several things that are easier. There are some that are harder. Every noun has six endings. That's kind of hard. JK: That is. MDS: Yes, six endings depending upon the case. Therefore, you never worry about word order. You can use any word order because if that ending means its stated case and so, you know. But �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 9 of 19 that is kind of an obstacle to learn six endings. And then there are only two conjugations of verbs. The first one's easy; the second one's messy. It has a lot of, what's the word I want, where you change the rules a little bit. I can't think of it. JK: Flexibility. MDS: What? JK: Flexibility? [00:19:36] MDS: No, not flexibility. Exceptions. JK: Oh exceptions. Oh, ok. MDS: Like English has lots of them, you know. JK: Right. MDS: That second conjugation has lots of exceptions. JK: Oh, does it? Irregular. MDS: Yes. JK: Irregular verbs. Yes. In the '70s you served on the SCL Personnel Board… MDS: Yes. JK: …as its secondary education representative. [00:20:07] MDS: Yes. JK: What did you do in that role? [00:20:10] MDS: The Personnel Board was sort of an experiment where the people in each section, like secondary ed., elementary ed., voted on a representative. But the thing I found I didn't really… We didn't have just what we were supposed to be doing definitely laid out, and it was because it was an experiment, and so I felt a little at ease (verbatim) not knowing just what I was supposed to be doing. And then because it was a voted thing. There were people who would rather have had somebody else, and that always made it a little difficult. But we got through it. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 10 of 19 JK: Oh, I see. Have you ever served as a chapter representative? [00:21:07] MDS: Yes, I did. JK: Oh, you did. MDS: One year we had a two-year session of the chapter and I did serve on that one. It was a good experience. JK: What kind of issues did you face? Do you remember? [00:21:23] MDS: We worked on problems of the community and where we were headed. We had different groups and I chose to work on the spirituality one. There was one on governance. I don't remember what the third one was. But it was for the future of the community, where we wanted to go and how we were going to get there. (Laughs) JK: When did you do that about? [00:21:52] MDS: Oh, goodness. I know I was in Topeka at that time so it must have been quite a little while ago. Let's just leave it at that. JK: Ok. Ok. So, it was prior to the time… Were there still a lot of young women entering the community? [00:22:24] MDS: Quite a few, yes. Quite a few. JK: Yes. So, you had other issues. In 1979 you went into school administration. You became principal of Sacred Heart in Fall City, Nebraska. How was your experience as principal and did you miss teaching or were you teaching also? [00:22:39] MDS: Well, I was doing both. (Laughter) MDS: It was a small high school, very small. JK: Ok. MDS: So, yes, I usually taught what you would consider a half schedule. And the principalship wasn't too much of a job because it was a very small school. They didn't have everything, you know, that big schools have. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 11 of 19 But administration is not my favorite thing. It's all right if I'm not the top man on the totem pole but… Now, in Topeka that was a larger high school, and we had kind of an administrative board. And each one of us, the four of us, I think… The principal was a priest, and then we had one who took care of activities. I had curriculum, so I did the master schedule and all the scheduling, and I loved doing that. That was mathematical, you know. (Laughs) And then I taught there also and some really good students in Topeka. JK: Oh, really. MDS: Uh-huh. JK: Do you have any memories of particular students or particular classes? [00:24:04] MDS: What's that? JK: I said do you have any memories of certain students or classes? [00:24:09] MDS: Oh, yes. Yes, I do. And, believe it or not, since I've been back here retired, I've had several come to visit me. JK: Oh, you have. MDS: Yes, from way back. JK: Really. MDS: From Topeka and from North Kansas City. JK: Oh, that's great. MDS: And then one from Hogan High School which is in Kansas City. That's rewarding. Teachers don't have day-to-day rewards, you know, and it's so nice when students come back and say your fourth year math class got me through Creighton or whatever it was. Things like that. JK: Oh, that's very nice. You live here now, don't you? MDS: I do. I live in Ross Hall. JK: Yes. Can you describe your experience teaching at St. Mary's? [00:25:03] MDS: At the college? �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 12 of 19 JK: Yes. MDS: You know there's not an awful lot of difference between a college freshman and a high school senior. That isn't that I had all freshman, but I really didn't feel like it was that much different. There was difference in scheduling. We had night courses. Things like that. But on the whole I didn't really find it… Well, there was this difference. In high school you have more time in the classroom and less time preparing. In college it's just the reverse. You spend more time preparing and less time in the classroom. JK: Right. MDS: So, that was a difference but not a hard one to do. If the class was there to be taught you put in the time getting ready for it, so your day turned out about the same. JK: Which did you enjoy more, college or high school? [00:26:07] MDS: I think high school. JK: Really. MDS: I think I did. But I had more time in high school than I had at the college too. So, I don't know. I think the kids that age I really liked. I really, really felt at home with them. JK: Why? What did you like about them? Because a lot of people are not so fond of teenagers. [00:26:38] MDS: Here's one example from… This one was at St. Pius X in North Kansas City. On April Fools' Day, or before it, the kids had planned that at a certain signal in this one class they were going to all put on dark glasses. Someone tipped me off, and so I put my dark glasses in my pocket. We were still in the habit then. And I recognized the signal and so I turned around while they put on theirs and then I turned around and faced them with my dark glasses. JK: (Laughs) MDS: And they were the kind of people that you could enjoy. They were just really good students and I could enjoy them. And other little things like that came up and I could just enjoy them. JK: That's wonderful. You're probably—I think you are—the most senior Sister that we're interviewing this week. MDS: I think I am. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 13 of 19 JK: I think you are. By the way you don't look 95. MDS: Well, that's nice. JK: No, you look like you're in your seventies. MDS: Well, people have told me that but… JK: So, you joined in 1940. MDS: I did. JK: So, that's a long time ago. And you've seen a lot of changes in training ministries… MDS: Oh, my. JK: …community culture and changes brought about by Vatican II. What are some of the changes that you've experienced before and after Vatican II brought on by Vatican II? [00:28:24] MDS: When they first started, when the changes first started, I wasn't one to get out in the front lines on any of those things. For instance, like the change in the habit. I would have been happy just to stay like we were. But it was moving along, and it was kind of a tension time in our community because there were those who wanted to and then there were ones who didn't want to change. And then just gradually some of our other customs were mitigated. You know, we were in bed at nine o'clock and things like that. So many of those little rules were changed, and I thought for the good. JK: The old rule was that everybody went to bed at nine o'clock. MDS: Pardon me. JK: The old rule was that everyone went to bed at nine o'clock. [00:29:18] MDS: They did in the schools anyway—the ones that taught. And we had 60-some odd grade schools at that time and nine high schools, so that would be a lot of people who went to bed at nine o'clock. JK: Yes. I wonder how they got all their work done. MDS: In fact, I had to get special permission the year before I took my orals at Notre Dame to stay up 'til 9:15 so that I could review. (Laughs) JK: Oh, my heavens. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 14 of 19 MDS: And, you know, those things like that just gradually disappeared, and, in my opinion, the Sisters are happier now than I've ever seen them. JK: I can imagine. What were some of the other changes that were welcome to you? [00:30:04] MDS: Being able to go home to see your parents. I only lived… Parsons, Kansas isn't that far from here, and I didn't get to go home for 11 years. I was in 11 years before… Well, see, that all gradually changed. And I got to go lots of times after that. JK: Right. I can understand why some parents were reluctant to send their daughters off. MDS: Yes. Right. (Laughs) JK: They'll never see them again practically. [00:30:47] MDS: Yes, that's right. That didn't mean I didn't see them. They could come visit me. JK: Oh, they could come visit you. MDS: They could visit me. I just couldn't go back to my own home. And, as I say, we only lived 130 miles, so. JK: That's awful. Did any of the changes require some adjustment for you? [00:31:09] MDS: Oh, I think so. Yes. But they came gradually. So, I'll tell you one of the biggest adjustments for me was the music in church. And now, of course, I think it's great. I mean there is so much better music now. But some of the first attempts I thought were pretty bad. I love classical music and so what they were turning up with… I almost walked out one day. (Laughter) MDS: But gradually that got better. The good musicians got in on it and the church music hymns got a lot better. Now I think they're wonderful. JK: Oh, good. Good. So, you're involved in a prayer ministry now. Can you tell us about that? [00:32:05] MDS: I don't know really what you mean by that because it wasn't a ministry in the sense of going out and working with other people. It was just my own spiritual life. JK: Right. Right. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 15 of 19 MDS: I had time, you know with... But for one thing I broke my ankle, no, my leg once while I was in Topeka, I think. Well, wherever I was and I had to come to the Mother House to recuperate because our house halls were too narrow for a wheel chair. No, I believe it was when I was in Grand Junction, Colorado. That's when it was. And I had time then to pray and to think, and I think my own spiritual life developed at that time. And there were some people that I did influence. If you talk about a ministry I didn't really set it up as a prayer ministry but there were some people that I was close to that we had conversations about prayer and different types of prayer and so on. But some people have that prayer ministry as really their job, you know. JK: Right. So, it's an individual thing for you. [00:33:33] MDS: That's right and the few people that I influenced by the fact that they were my friends. JK: Well, the SCL community does so much active work but prayer plays a role also. So, can you say a little bit about how prayer reflects on the community and on yourself? [00:34:00] MDS: How prayer reflects on the community. JK: Yes. MDS: I think our community has always been very prayerful. But I think one of the things that was important to me, because I was at a point in my earlier life when I was very dissatisfied with my own prayer life, and we had just very limited books that we could use and then gradually it got so that we could choose our own, you know, and things like that. And that was a big step forward for me. But finally over a period of, maybe, six years, more than that, I got into what's called Centering Prayer. And that was really worked out by three Trappist priests. They saw a more contemplative type of prayer being… There were people that really desired that type of prayer, and they were running off to India and Japan and China to find those things, and these three Trappists said we have that in our own. We just have to find a way to make it available to people and not just religious, to all, anybody who wanted it. So, they worked out this little plan with four steps to it. And then they started experimenting with it, and I happened to make a retreat here by one of the ones on that group, and he just threw it out as an experiment. But it resonated with me. It was kind of what I was looking for. And he didn't call it Centering Prayer then. It was just this method. But, you know, that in 35 years that it's been going it is now in 50 countries. In other words, it has just taken hold like everything. And it's for everybody—Catholic, Protestant, anybody that wants to, you know. It's not limited to any race or religion or anything. So, it has just spread like wildfire. �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 16 of 19 And so they have an organization. They call it Contemplative Outreach. And they have headquarters in most cities, and it's just grown and I've grown with it. JK: Well. That's interesting. MDS: I mean it has really been what I needed. JK: Have other people taken it up here? MDS: Oh, yes. (Laughs) JK: Oh, really. MDS: Oh, yes. If it has spread to 50 countries there have to be a lot of people there. But in our own it's… One of our Sisters was head of the group in Denver. And if you could see their publication you would see where it is. Father Thomas Keating is sort of the head one there and he has written numerous books. I mean there's plenty that people could read on it. But it has spread very, very rapidly. JK: That's interesting. When did you retire? [00:37:31] MDS: Let's see. Oh, I retired from the college after 12 years, and then I still wasn't ready just to sit down. So, I looked around and one day our table up where I was living… I was living in Mead Hall. We had a group of six Sisters living together there, and that was another new thing— to get away from this large community living and into smaller groups. A lot of people really wanted that. And there was a list of some openings at the Marillac Clinic in Grand Junction, Colorado. And I looked at the four and I knew three were not in my realm of being able to do. So, one of them was bookkeeper. I had never taken a business course but numbers, you know. JK: Right. MDS: I thought I surely could add, subtract, multiply and divide. So, I interviewed for it and took it. So, I spent 16 years in Grand Junction, Colorado working at the Marian Clinic… Marillac Clinic for people who had no insurance or very little insurance. And besides doing bookkeeping I did a lot of other things too. And I loved those 16 years. I wouldn't give those up for anything and it's from there then that I retired. JK: And when was that? [00:39:17] MDS: Oh, let's see. Let's see. I've been here two years, so the 16 years before the two years I was here. JK: Oh, ok. Ok. So, you retired a couple of years ago then. [00: 39:39] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 17 of 19 MDS: Yes. JK: Yes. MDS: I didn't work full-time at Marillac in Grand Junction. I really worked a half schedule. JK: Oh, ok. Well, that's good. MDS: Because I was getting on, but that was a wonderful. Loved Grand Junction. The people are wonderful there. And it was just a very good experience. JK: How did you feel about retiring and coming back here? [00:40:06] MDS: By the time that I did retire and came back here I was ready to because I knew that I needed more help to live and medical help and I knew it was time. I hated to leave Grand Junction but I really knew I needed to. And, of course, this is a wonderful place. Ross Hall wasn't finished when I came but I've grown with it, so. (Laughs) JK: Oh, good, good. So, it hasn't… MDS: So, I'm very happy. JK: It hasn't been too difficult a transition. [00:40:50] MDS: No, it really hasn't, not as hard as it's been for some people, I think. The Sister I was living with in Grand Junction, it's very hard for her. She had been there for a long time and had lots of friends. And it was very hard for her. JK: Yes. Since you were working in healthcare as a bookkeeper, but, nonetheless, you were surrounded by others working in healthcare… MDS: Yes. JK: …what do you think of what's going on in Washington right now with the healthcare legislation? You're rolling your eyes. (Laugh) [00:41:27] MDS: That's all I can do. I almost stopped listening to it. I just get so upset. It isn't worth it. (Laughs) I can't imagine how the American people put that man in office, but they did. JK: Hard to realize. Hard to understand. [00:41:50] �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 18 of 19 MDS: It is. I'm sure some of them regret it. (Inaudible) to. But I don't know where we're headed in healthcare or… But if that bill of his goes through all kinds of poor people are going to lose their healthcare. Medicaid is going to go down the road. JK: Yes. And so people will die. MDS: That's right. JK: Because of (inaudible). [00:42:16] MDS: At Marillac Clinic we had Medicaid for our dental. The rest of it was all medical, and we had a wonderful program for mental health where a person could see a medical provider and a mental health provider on the same visit. And those were all poor people. Travel wasn't easy for them, you know. So, that was a great boon for them. Today they have, the clinic has, competed for a grant of some kind. I don't understand all the details. But anyway, they got it. They've received it. And right now they have doubled the number of people they were seeing before. It's flourishing. JK: Oh, good. MDS: That makes me happy. JK: Well, it's a short-term benefit anyway. [00:43:10] MDS: Yes. JK: Yes. MDS: So, that was an important part of my life, those 16 years in Grand Junction. JK: It must have been. Would you like to add anything to what we've talked about? [00:43:30] MDS: I don't know. I think you pretty well covered it. JK: Oh, I have one more question. MDS: All right. JK: What do you see as the future of SCL? MDS: Of…? �Sisters of Charity, Leavenworth, Kansas Transcription of Sister Mary Denise Sternizke Interviewed by Jane Kenamore, June 28, 2017 Transcribed by Jessie Lehman, September 4, 2017 Page 19 of 19 JK: SCL, the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth. [00:43:44] MDS: Well, we're surely not getting a lot of new members but neither are most of the other communities. It's because lay people can do a lot more things, I think, than they used to. They didn't have to join a religious community to do them. And I don't know what the future of SCL is except that the spirit is so wonderful. When I came home I thought I would find Sisters sitting in rocking chairs waiting to die. That is not the case. I mean these people are just doing all kinds of things in Leavenworth and in Kansas City. They're active. It was just a wonderful revelation. I can't see how something like that is going to die out. JK: Oh, thank you. That's a wonderful perception. [00:44:30] MDS: I think some way or other God's going to find us a way to continue, but I don't know how. JK: Others have said the same thing. In one way or another things will… the community will continue. ### � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sternitzke, S. Mary Denise Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kenamore, Jane Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MPEG Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 45:06:00 Location The location of the interview Digital Sisters Files Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sternitzke, S. Mary Denise, Oral History, 6/28/2017 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth, Teaching, School Administration, College Teaching Description An account of the resource She speaks warmly of her family. Her father was overjoyed when she joined the Community. Her mother had reservations, but grew to be very proud of her daughter's call to religious life. Initially, Sister taught in elementary schools and struggled with this age group. As she speaks of her transition to high school students, you can hear her voice change. She loved working with these students and inspiring them to overcome their fear of math and science. Her stories illustrate a lifelong commitment to educating herself. As math and science research progressed, she did graduate work in mathematics, chemistry, and physics in order to better teach these subjects. She talks about her love of languages. She studied German earlier in life, and in retirement, she was tackling Russian on her iPad. Other topics include her transition to school administration, college teaching, and Leadership positions as Secondary Education Representative on the Personnel Board and a Chapter representative. Sister also spends a good deal of time speaking about her relationship to prayer throughout her life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sternitzke, S. Mary Denise; Kenamore, Jane Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/28/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sternitzke, S. Mary Denise Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1922-2017 Education Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b88a36c5eb0616a19e39126f2a053a8a.jpg 8f5602e440d44dbd6a4d9f64230002ee https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/0bc38dd63fccc16c798a1b4e2f7c2eef.mp3 bdb2a51baeafe7aaeb2eff280aa49639 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/4d22f663d300ad15dea8d39993d301cd.pdf a9f454f11ebacdfa15fba1a6a55cbb63 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Linda Giuli, SC Wednesday January 8, 2018 10:12AM • 30:14 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is September 10th, 2018. The interviewee is Sister. Linda Giuli. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. I am interviewing Sr. Linda in Boyle Hall in the archives Reading Room; and it's about 1:00pm. Sr. Linda, can you state your full name and your religious name? Sr. Linda Giuli 00:30 My full name is Sr. Linda Giuli. I was baptized Madeline Linda because Linda is not a saint, and the priest who baptized me suggested to my mother that Madeline was a good name. So it's Madeline Linda. My religious name was Sr. Mary Therese. Angelica Bullock 00:58 And how old are you currently? Sr. Linda Giuli 01:01 I am 76 years old. Angelica Bullock 01:03 And when did you enter the Sisters of Charity? Sr. Linda Giuli 01:07 September 8th, 1961, at age 18. Angelica Bullock 01:14 Let's talk about your family life. Where were you born? Sr. Linda Giuli 01:20 I was born in Westchester Square Hospital in the Bronx. I grew up in the Bronx. I even remember my address was 3029 Barnes Avenue. I was there till I was about nine years old. Angelica Bullock 01:38 And where did you grow up after the age of nine? Sr. Linda Giuli 01:43 My mother and I moved to... upper in the Bronx. We went from Barnes Avenue up to Wakefield. So I grew up in the north Bronx in Wakefield, went to school, St. Francis of Rome was our parish and went to grammar school there and then to St. Barnabas High School. -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 02:11 And can you tell me a little bit about your parents and your siblings, if you had any? I have no siblings. I was perfect my mother said, so she didn't need to have any more children. The one that she had was perfect. My mother had a very hard pregnancy with me. She told me that story. And because of that, my father was called to the army and they gave him a deferment. So after I was born in June, he didn't have to go to the army till October. And because of that, it was World War II, my father did not get sent overseas; he was lucky. He spent his army years in California. And my father happened to have very wonderfully talented hands. He could do anything. And he was assigned to make prosthetic limbs for the soldiers. And when he came home, I was three years old. And what did your father do after? Sr. Linda Giuli 03:34 After, my father had a hard time finding work. He had several jobs he worked as a maintenance man. He worked for a man in Mamaroneck who had an estate. That's the man who gave him the piano that came in through our living room window and two years later went out our living room window. My father played the violin and the accordion, the sisters taught him to do that. My father grew up in Colorado, so I'm not sure what sisters taught him, but he was taught music by the sisters. My father eventually got a job with New York City Housing and he became an architect and a builder for New York City Housing. In fact, he designed and built the building that Sr. Carol DeAngelo grew up in, Evenwald Housing, was the name of the group of buildings, Evenwald in the north Bronx. Angelica Bullock 05:04 And what about your mother? What did she do? Sr. Linda Giuli 05:09 Well, my mother was a housewife, a homemaker until I was about 10. And then she had various jobs and then eventually became the Assistant Manager of John Wanamaker's in Cross County in Yonkers. John Wanamaker was a very famous department store. Angelica Bullock 05:37 And what inspired her to start working when you were 10? Because she didn't want to leave me alone in the house, until I guess she thought I was more responsible. You know, my mother had a history of fashion when she was younger. She worked as a draper and for a designer house for clothes, women's clothes. And so she always had her hand somehow in fashion in the kind of work that she had. Did you have any pets growing up? Sr. Linda Giuli 06:17 I had a dog. I loved my dog; my dog loved me. He ate all the food that I didn't want. Angelica Bullock 06:28 What was your dog's name? Skupper. S-k-u-p-p-e-r. Skupper had that name because they didn't call them Skipper. My Uncle John was in the Navy and he found this little pup. And he smuggled this little doggie onto the ship. And the guys took care of him, and he put him in his duffel bag. And when he brought him home, my Aunt Eleanor did not want the dog. So my father said, "Oh, we'll take him." So he became our dog. Around what age did you receive the dog? -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Linda Giuli 07:11 Well, I guess around 5 or so. I'm not exactly sure but I just remember having the dog in my house. I might have even been younger than that, because I remember he used to come, my mother used to insist that I have a nap and I didn't like to nap. She'd put me in my in my crib, I can remember that. And he would come and put his little snout in between the, what do they call the parts of the crib that are ... Angelica Bullock 07:52 ...the opening section? Yeah, he used to put his snout in there and I used to play with him and he used to play back, Then my mother would come in and she tell him "Out you, get out!" And he'd get out. And then I could go to sleep. I wouldn't sleep with him in there. And how long did you have Skupper for? Until I moved, till I was 9. Do you remember anything in particular, anything special about your childhood? Sr. Linda Giuli 08:27 Well, I went to public school. Immaculate Conception, Gun Hill Road was my Parish, but the school wasn't built yet. They were still building it and collecting money from people for it. So I went to public school for kindergarten and I was left back in kindergarten, because they told my mother I was slow. So I was in kindergarten for two years. I remember my first teacher was Mrs. Davis. And then the second one was Mrs. Roses and her son, William Roses sat at my table and I liked him. I liked William. We were buddies. Angelica Bullock 09:13 Can you explain what that means that you were left back in kindergarten? Sr. Linda Giuli 09:20 I guess they meant retarded or something. But it took a long time for me to learn how to read. I finally went to Immaculate Conception School when it opened, and I think that was second grade. But I couldn't receive my First Holy Communion because I couldn't memorize the Catechism and I couldn't read. So I received my first communion in the third grade. I was the tallest kid in on the line. I was last online because I was the tallest and my mother made my dress because they didn't have First Communion dresses in my size. I had that dress, I loved that dress; I thought it was beautiful. And what she did too was she made different color slips. So through the white eyelit the blue or the pink that she made, yellow. And then I had matching socks. I remember that as a kid. Angelica Bullock 10:35 What influenced you to join the Sisters of Charity. Why did you decide to join? Sr. Linda Giuli 10:42 I guess I decided to join because I felt the call. And I know it's hard to believe but I was a pretty serious kid and I thought about it a lot. And I got to know my sponsor at St. Barnabas and I talked to her a little bit, talked to her a lot, actually. And it was hard in a way because my mother was alone. If I would go to the convent, my mother would be alone. But I still thought it was the right thing to do. -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 11:34 When you joined, what did your family say? Sr. Linda Giuli 11:37 Oh, I couldn't repeat it. This microphone would explode. They were I think, at the beginning, they were pretty shocked. Angelica Bullock 11:54 Why? Sr. Linda Giuli 11:56 My family were not, were good people. My uncles, my aunts, they were very good people but they were not, I'm going to use the word religious, they were not church-going people for the most part. But they were good people and they were very surprised; they were shocked. In fact, one of my uncles, my Uncle Joe, who I really loved a lot, he came in, he grabbed me one time we were together at his house. And and he said, "Are you sure you know what you're doing?" Angelica Bullock 12:43 What did you say? Sr. Linda Giuli 12:44 I told them that yeah, I thought I knew what I was doing. I had boyfriends. I lived a very normal life. I went out a lot. I worked. I was in sports. I had friends. Angelica Bullock 13:05 What did your friends think? My friends were mostly in school with me so they knew me pretty well. My friends were alright with it. My mother said to me, "If you're not happy, I want you to come home." So once that she got used to the idea and she would ask me when we had visiting days, "Are you happy?" Do you remember entering the first day? Sr. Linda Giuli 13:44 Oh, yeah, it was a beautiful day. It was sunny and warm and my Aunt Evelyn drove us up to the Mount. And she'd let me drive and I went the wrong way on a one way street. Nothing bad happened. Nothing bad happened. I guess it was nerves. But we got there okay. And it was just a beautiful sunny day. It was a Friday, because I remember what we were served for supper. It was tuna salad and sliced tomatoes and bread and I guess they were supposed to be either hard boiled or soft boiled eggs and it wasn't. When we cracked the eggs, the eggs were only half-cooked. They were slimey. And the novice at our table said, "You don't have to eat it," and I said, "Good, 'cause I'm not!'" Angelica Bullock 14:57 Do you remember what you packed to enter? -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Linda Giuli 15:02 When we got a letter of acceptance either enclosed in that letter or separate, we got a list of things that we were supposed to send in a trunk. And my sponsor and I went shopping and we got all the stuff. Certain underwears and certain soaps and certain deodorants and shoes and stockings and all that kind of stuff. Angelica Bullock 15:34 Did any of it seem weird or unknown to you or did you already know people who had joined the Sisters? Yeah, but I didn't realize what it was; I didn't get into what you brought with you. Everything was either black or white. How did you feel when you were entering? Did you feel excited or nervous? Sr. Linda Giuli 16:01 Oh, I wasn't nervous. No, I wasn't nervous and I wasn't ever homesick. I wasn't ever homesick, not the way some other people were. I didn't spend a lot of time crying or upset or no, I was okay. Kind of took things as they came. And of course, I was perfect. So in many ways, I followed the rules for the most part and when I didn't, I was lucky enough not to get caught. Angelica Bullock 16:46 What kind of rules did you have your first year? Silence-keeping, not talking and of course, I was a girl so I like to talk. You had to get used to not talking in certain times and places. It wasn't so hard it you know, you got used to it after a while. Not having any choice of food, that was hard. Not terrible but a little hard. You ate what was served. You couldn't say, "I don't like this or I don't want this. I'd like something else." That didn't happen. Getting up at 5:00, after 5:00 in the morning was the hardest; probably the hardest thing to get used to. There was what they call the rising bell. It was a loud, very loud bell, that knocked you on your feet. It was so horrible. And I just wasn't used to getting up at 5:00 o'clock. I'm still not used to getting up at 5:00 o'clock. Do you know why you had to get up so early? Sr. Linda Giuli 18:21 Yeah, because we went to the chapel to pray. And then we went to mass and then we had breakfast. And then we had prayers, then we had readings and class, that was forever. The day was very filled with activities and you had house duties, you know, different variety of things that you did or were assigned to actually. Angelica Bullock 18:53 I want to talk a little bit about you and your college years. We had school, part of what we did as postulants and novices was we had class and even when we became junior professed and moved to LeGras, we had class at the college. And when I went out on mission we had to come back on Saturdays for class. Education-wise we were all offered and given the best of education, I think opportunities, etc. Did you take classes only with Sisters? No, after I graduated from the college here, when I was in class here, some of the girls that I was in high school with were in my class. Then when I graduated from here, I was told to go on for a master's and I went to Hunter College in the city and finished two masters degrees there. But I always wanted to be a nurse. I couldn't even imagine my whole life in school. I didn't particularly care for school. And I didn't particularly like children. So both things made it a little difficult. But if I was to teach, I was to teach, it was an obedience. I wasn't going to -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �leave because of it. It was something that I was going to do in terms of an assigned ministry. But when I got a chance to make a choice I did. Sr. Linda Giuli 20:18 And you said you received two Master's degrees? Angelica Bullock 20:51 One was in elementary education and the other one was in... I'm trying to think of what that degree was; I can't remember. And how long did it take you to complete both degrees? Sr. Linda Giuli 21:06 Oh, it went quickly because I went twice a week. I was teaching in Rego Park in Queens and I'd take the Q44 bus into 59th Street and First Avenue, and I'd walk up to Hunter. I did that twice a week and on Saturday, sometimes on Saturday. So I got finished pretty fast. And it wasn't until 1977, '76 actually, when I pursued the nursing with the president who was in office at that time. Angelica Bullock 21:56 So how did you start your second career in nursing. You mentioned the president. Did she give you the okay? Sr. Linda Giuli 22:06 Yes. Yeah, I went to talk to Margaret Dowling, I went to talk to Sr. Margaret. I told her; it was difficult because Sr. Margaret had been superintendent of schools. So to tell the superintendent of schools that you hated to be in school was a little bit difficult but, she really was very good to me and she understood. But she asked me to stay in the classroom until things were settled. So I took the MCAT, which was the boards that you had to take when you apply for medical school, and I did; I passed. I had studied on my own and I passed and I got into New York Medical. Soon to find out after a year that it was not to be because the amount of work and reading was too much for me. So I switched over to the nurse practitioner program in Pace University, and I completed the program there. Angelica Bullock 23:09 Did you enjoy your time there at Pace? Sr. Linda Giuli 23:11 Absolutely, it was great. I got a great education. Angelica Bullock 23:15 And what did you do after you graduated? Sr. Linda Giuli 23:19 Oh, my first job was with the Westchester County Department of Health at the New Rochelle District Office. I lived in Mamaroneck at the time, so that was easy. And after a couple of years I went to Burikin Family Clinic in East Harlem and after that, I went to Montefiore for 22 years. And after that I went to St. Barnabas Hospital in the Bronx. That was an interesting job, I liked it very much. It was psychology and drug addiction. I took care of a lot of AIDS patients. -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 24:11 How did you feel having a new career after teaching? Did you think of your... Sr. Linda Giuli 24:20 I was glad to be out of school. I liked the work as a nurse practitioner and I worked with really, really wonderful people. Angelica Bullock 24:33 Do you think you would have stayed in the community if the President told you that you couldn't become a nurse practitioner? Sr. Linda Giuli 24:44 Of course I would have stayed. Of course, that was never an issue. Angelica Bullock 24:53 So you would have been okay with being a teacher? Sr. Linda Giuli 24:58 Sure, I would have beat up all the kids everyday and given them a lot of homework and been really mean, but I would have stayed. Angelica Bullock 25:12 Do you think at the time that it was easier to make this switch from teaching to being a nurse practitioner? Just because it was kind of that time, like during the 70s where things were changing in the church and I guess changing with the Sisters? Sr. Linda Giuli 25:30 And I was young, I mean, I was only, 33. You know, I wasn't ever adverse to change in fact, I greeted change. I mean, I never had a problem with that. I rolled with the punches pretty easily. Angelica Bullock 25:54 Why did you want to become a nurse practitioner? Sr. Linda Giuli 25:59 Always from when I was a little girl always wanted to be a nurse. Always. Angelica Bullock 26:06 Did you know why or do you just feel like you had a calling to be a nurse? Yeah, I did. Was there anyone else in your family who was a nurse or a doctor or in medicine? No, one of my younger cousins, two of my younger cousins became nurses also. When you were a nurse, did you ever see God in your work? -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Linda Giuli 26:36 Being on that level with people, I think is a spirituality in itself. And when I was working with AIDS people, drug addiction and AIDS people, that was very serious work. Very, very often their lives, you knew that their lives were going to be so shortened and ... I guess I'm just trying to think on how to say, being kind to people who are so sick with so little hope and in those days, if you had AIDS there was not much hope to survive. Being kind and understanding and caring for people with disease of that magnitude was being very, I think in the greatest definition of being religious. When I was in Rego Park which was the Brooklyn Diocese I got into involved in ITV, Instructional Television (Archdiocese of New York). And always one of the reasons why communications was my second Master's. But then again, I got changed back to New York to St. Mary's in Yonkers, so I didn't need it anymore. I'm trying to... Angelica Bullock 28:23 What did you do at ITV? Sr. Linda Giuli 28:27 I actually did television, not live; it was filmed. I prepared lesson plans for little children, first grade, in fact, I wore a pale blue habit. It was the same habit that we had in white, only it was pale blue because white was not good for television; it was too bright. It was pale blue, and I would put that on when I got to the studio, and then take it off to come home. It was interesting. Angelica Bullock 29:01 Did you like it? No, I wouldn't want to do it forever. In fact, I didn't want to be in school. I mean, I never really wanted to be in school. One of the good things that happened when I was in Rego Park, and I loved the people in Rego Park. They were many, many of the people were Cuban refugees. They came over in the Mariel boats. They were wonderful, wonderful people, and I needed to learn to speak Spanish. My Spanish wasn't good enough. So somebody put my address down as Mount St. Vincent, instead of real far, and I got a chance to study Spanish in Puerto Rico one summer, and that helped a lot. I didn't know much about TV back then, but wasn't the rise of TV as we do it now during the time you were working for ITV, in the sixties? Well, it was a new concept in education, that's for sure and the Brooklyn Diocese was wonderful in terms of the leadership they had in education. So the use of television in classroom was good. -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Giuli, Sister Linda Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 30:14:00 Location The location of the interview Mount Saint Vincent, Bronx, New York Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Giuli, Sister Linda, SC, Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Giuli, Sister Linda, SC Sisters of Charity (New York, N.Y.) Monasticism and religious life of women Nurse practitioners Description An account of the resource Sr. Linda Giuli discusses her life as a Sister of Charity of New York, growing up as the only child in an Italian family in the Bronx, and the value of her missions as a teacher and a nurse. Although as a young sister Sr. Linda taught elementary school, she was always interested in pursuing health care. She began her second career as a nurse practitioner at the age of thirty-three and continued this pursuit until her retirement. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-09-10 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Transcriber; Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Giuli, Sister Linda, SC, Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York Education Healthcare Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/00f7343e2c2e55910bf84a33cb5bc8b0.jpg 41769e07e6efa95b12516b3f81c71dc2 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/26e7b4f1f163e94d0d2153473b875ae2.mp3 3dbf2b325f62f198d34736308140fcc1 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/bcfc7129da4a20b04a1d5a516af7f9d1.pdf 3a5e53f39589cf74fe6877ba1740c9a3 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Josephine Rog, SC October 3, 2019: 9:37AM • 35:58 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is October 8, 2019. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. The interviewee is Sister Josephine Marie Rog. The interview is taking place at St. Patrick's Villa in Nanuet, New York. Okay, Sister Josephine, can you please state your full name? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:26 My full name is sister Josephine Maria Rog. I was born under the name of Marilyn Rog. Angelica Bullock 00:34 What is your current age? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:36 My current age is 79. I will be 80 in December. Angelica Bullock 00:42 Do you remember the date that you entered the Congregation? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:45 I entered on September 8, 1957. Angelica Bullock 00:51 And how old were you at the time? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:53 17. Angelica Bullock 00:55 Roughly, how many years have you been in the Congregation? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:59 62. Angelica Bullock 01:02 Okay, so first, we're going to start with a little bit of general information, specifically your family life. So can you tell me where were you born? Sr. Josephine Rog 01:12 I was born in Brooklyn, New York. -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 01:15 And is that where you grew up? Sr. Josephine Rog 01:17 Grew up basically, yes, for school, etc. But spent summers and many of the holidays in Connecticut with relatives, mainly cousins, aunts and uncles. Angelica Bullock 01:30 And could you tell us your parents name and their places of origin? Sr. Josephine Rog 01:34 My father's name is Joseph Rog. And my father was born in Connecticut and moved to New York. In his late teens, because of the father's work, he worked for the government and the United States Post Office at that time, and its side work in electronics. After the end of the war, he worked at Newark Airport, with his knowledge in electronics. Angelica Bullock 02:14 And your mother? Sr. Josephine Rog 02:16 My mother's name is Helen Rog, Helen Folcik, and she was really a housewife most of the years. She did work in food service for maybe 10 years in between that. Angelica Bullock 02:38 And do you have any siblings? Sr. Josephine Rog 02:39 I have one brother, 6 years younger. His name is Joseph Rog. Angelica Bullock 02:48 Do you have any family members in religious life? Sr. Josephine Rog 02:51 I had a grand aunt and a grand uncle. The grand aunt was a sister of the Holy Family of Nazareth, a Polish community. She spent her time between the United States and Poland. And my grand uncle was a priest. He was basically from Poland. But he also was pastor of a parish in Pennsylvania, Immaculate Conception or something similar to that. Angelica Bullock 03:26 And was your grand aunt and grand uncle, were they related to your mother or your father? Sr. Josephine Rog 03:32 The paternal side, my father. -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 03:35 Were you born into a Catholic family? Sr. Josephine Rog 03:38 Yes. Angelica Bullock 03:39 What parish did you belong to? Sr. Josephine Rog 03:41 At first when I was a baby and young child, I belonged to St. Agnes Parish, Congress Street, Brooklyn. But my life from first grade to graduation and entering the community, was St. Thomas Aquinas Church on Fourth Avenue, Brooklyn. Angelica Bullock 04:05 Okay, so now I'd like to talk a little bit about your education. What grammar school and high school did you attend? Sr. Josephine Rog 04:12 Okay, I attended the School of St. Thomas Aquinas, parish school and graduated from their eighth grade. Angelica Bullock 04:22 And what about high school? Sr. Josephine Rog 04:26 I was very fortunate to be able to get into Bishop McDonnell High School, was a blessing because I didn't have to pay tuition. Angelica Bullock 04:36 And did the Sisters of Charity teach in that school? Sr. Josephine Rog 04:39 Yes, they did. And that is where I met my first Sisters of Charity. If you would like a little story about that meeting, just the idea that I had a young cousin, who was very, very sick and dying. And she was in a Sister of Charity school in Brooklyn. I went every day so that I would relieve the mother so she could go home and cook a meal for the father. And I met Sisters of Charity in that hospital just on a passing. They struck me very deeply. They were very concerned, very loving with my cousin who was unresponsive in the bed. I believe that influence definitely had an impact on me at the time, because I was brought up in my grammar school by the Sisters of St. Joseph, Brentwood, New York. And Sisters of Charity struck me as kindly people. And then when I was in high school, I don't know why but my homeroom sister, a Sister of Charity, Sr. Agnes Carmita (Sheridan), worked very quickly. I arrived in school in September. By October she had me volunteering at St. Joseph's, Willoughby Avenue, the orphanage. Her fast working I think clinched everything. Because at St. Joseph's, I saw the sisters as -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �mothers taking care of these children, loving them, washing them, taking care, feeding them in every way. So that was my drawing card. I'm quite sure. Angelica Bullock 06:29 Okay, so now I'd like to talk a little bit more about why you joined in when you joined. So you said you joined when you were 17 years old? Sr. Josephine Rog 06:41 Yes. Angelica Bullock 06:43 And did you need permission since you are 17? How did that work? Sr. Josephine Rog 06:48 Yes, I needed permission. But I was thinking about this a long time before. In seventh grade, I told my mother not my father, that I would like to be a sister, and she objected to it. But she said, “Wait a while, you have a long time to go, you will maybe choose something else.” I always wanted the medical field and to be a doctor and my father was thrilled with that. And when he found out that I wanted to enter religious life, he was not happy. He did not scold me or punish me in any way. He wished me to go to Europe for a year and see how other people live, and that it might mature me a little bit and make me maybe not want to or maybe more so want to go into religious life. I did not wish to do that. And he accepted that not in a very happy way, but without punishing me in any way verbally or physically. And so it worked out that was able to go. Graduated high school in June and went in September to join the Sisters of Charity. Angelica Bullock 08:09 Can you tell us a little bit maybe why your parents were hesitant for you to join? Sr. Josephine Rog 08:18 Well, I think my father, as the only girl in the family and the first born, and I showed some acuity to learning, that I would be able to be an MD (doctor). I think he was kind of set on that. And he bought books and all kinds of things through my old high school. I did very, very well in biology because all that I knew before I even took the class. So I think that was his disappointment. Angelica Bullock 08:49 And can you tell me, what was the process of joining the Sisters of Charity in New York, you're 17... Sr. Josephine Rog 08:57 Right, and since my parents didn't right out any objection, they were going along with it, both of them. My mother was in some ways I know in her heart happy, but not happy for what she considered losing me. But then, of course, my Sister sponsored the Sister who sent me to work at Willoughby Avenue with the children. So quickly as I entered school, became my sponsor, and she brought me to the Mount (Mount Saint Vincent), and we were interviewed. But the mother general at the time mother, Mary Fuller, was not well enough for the interview. So I had to wait for her, to meet her. Now meeting -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �her was a strange situation because I was working at the sale, now I'm in high school a junior year not senior year in high school, and I was working at the big sale they had for the community at Grace Institute, New York. And while I was working there, one of the sisters knew that I had to petition to Mother. And my sponsor knew, she was also there. And so what they did was set up two chairs in a room that could not be opened until after the noon hour, because it was the money room, the liquor room, and that kind of thing. They put two chairs in between the boots of the money exchange and the wheel, the money wheel, and that's where I had my interview. And then shortly after that, I received my letter of acceptance so my senior year was all going to the community, basically. Angelica Bullock 10:57 Do you remember anything that happened during the interview? Do you remember any of the questions or do you remember how you felt? Were you nervous? Or... Sr. Josephine Rog 11:09 Maybe the first time that I went to the assistants, I was nervous because I didn't know what was coming, but by the time I met mother at the money wheel and the liquor booth, I did mention the money wheel and liquor booth, I was not nervous. And the question that I remember she asked me so vividly was, aren't you too young? And my answer, I could not believe it, I answered so quickly, “Oh, no mother.” With all that I had done as a camp counselor at camp, at Shoreham with the children and all that, I thought I knew everything. Little did I learn. Angelica Bullock 11:59 We talked a little bit about your family's thoughts about becoming a sister. But did your friends ever express how they felt about you becoming a sister at 17? Sr. Josephine Rog 12:10 My friends were basically other children from Catholic upbringing and most of them were delighted. They got me a little gift, a group of them pitched in and got me a beautiful, miraculous medal to wear. So no, my friends were very happy. My aunts and uncles, some of them were not happy. Some of them thought I was wasting my life, I had so much potential so they said, and they were not happy that I was doing that. Most of the world My grandparents were thrilled. Angelica Bullock 12:55 Do you want to talk a little bit about your life as a novice and your life as a postulant? Anything that comes to mind. Sr. Josephine Rog 13:04 Life in the novitiate, our life was very oriented. And very straightforward, do this this, at this time you did that at that time. I was kind of the one who followed the rule, I didn't really deviate that much, or anything that would bring anything down upon me. So I would say that it just went smoothly. I know it was very tense. during that whole time. I know that and my tension basically came that I had to do everything correct. Otherwise I would be sent out the door. And that was the last thing I wanted. I was desperate to hang-in no matter what happened. So what we had to do, I did and that's it. -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 13:51 Okay. And what specifically did you have to do? Do you remember? Just like tasks or... Sr. Josephine Rog 13:58 Yes, tasks, duties that we would be given. Silence at certain times. No running up and down the stairs that's one of the things I always got called down for is running on the stairs because I was always go, go, go, go go. And of course, prayer time we had to be on time, that kind of thing. You know, basically following the rules. When the bell rang, you went to someplace. When the bell rang again you went to someplace else. The duties were not hard. They were all physical duties that I was doing at home, scrubbing and mopping. We never had a scrub on the floor with our knees like they say some of the communities had to do you know, we use mops and pails and brooms and brushes. We didn't have any of the other problems. Our food the same thing. The food was good enough, it was it ample enough, and I didn't have any problem with that. Having to eat everything at home that was on the table no matter whether I liked it or not, even in the years I didn't like spinach I had to drink the juice. So as a result when I came, I was already ready to eat anything put on the table. I never had a problem. Even the tripe soup with little fishes in it! Angelica Bullock 15:29 Did you ever feel homesick at any point? Sr. Josephine Rog 15:33 I have to say I missed my family. I missed our customs, especially at the holiday time because we always were very strict with the Polish customs which were very beautiful and very meaningful. I missed that. But I cannot say that was a sickness that was a missing of something that we did that we are no longer doing however, in the novitiate, they had little surprises for us that made up for some of it. As far as real homesickness goes, I would feel that because I was used to going to all relatives houses all summer, I was away from my actual family, my mom and dad, my brother, and also the fact that I was camp counselor summer after summer after summer for weeks on end. As a result, I also was not with my family. So that homesickness I get over with very, very young. Angelica Bullock 16:37 You mentioned surprises that they gave you. When you were a novice? Sr. Josephine Rog 16:42 Yes. One of the the, I guess one of the things that most of us remember mostly, is the fact that it was it was a surprise. They took us down to a whole big room and it was life sized creche scene of Mary and Joseph in real clothes and the baby in real clothes, and the animals, not real, and the whole thing. And that was something that was like just a total surprise. We were told something was coming, something very nice was coming. But we never told what it was until we were ushered downstairs to the room they had set up. And it just was so beautiful. It stayed with us for me up until today that it was such a beautiful thing. And then they had a nice dinner. And we each got a little gift. I don't remember what it was. It wasn't something big, it wasn't money that's for sure; we couldn't have money. So whatever it was maybe a prayer card or I don't really remember, but we did get a little gift at the table. And then there were prayer services that were very beautiful. The Chapel was fixed up ultra-beautiful and that -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �was another beautiful surprise. We were given a free day around the holidays that we could walk anywhere we wanted, go anywhere we wanted, basically within the structure of the novitiate and, you know, be more free. Angelica Bullock 18:22 And what would you do on your free day? Do you remember? Sr. Josephine Rog 18:27 On that free day? Yes. You know, I guess most of us took a little bit extra time in the Chapel because we were not, we went to our prayers, our devotions, but we never had really much time extra. So I know I did that. I know I walked outside, which was a blessing. And when winter Christmas we're not that freezing, you can go outside and you know, could get some good fresh air, and then talk with my fellow novices, which we did not have much time to do. Angelica Bullock 19:08 And how large was your circle? Sr. Josephine Rog 19:13 Oh, we entered on September 8, '57 with 50. Angelica Bullock 19:19 50? Sr. Josephine Rog 19:20 50. 5, 0. Angelica Bullock 19:21 Wow. Sr. Josephine Rog 19:21 The next morning we woke up, one left, so we had 49 for most of the next months. Now after that, a few left one by one, I don't recall when or how many at that time. It is in the 1960s that we lost most. Angelica Bullock 19:47 And how did it feel to be joining with 50 or 49 or how many others, that's a lot of girls. Sr. Josephine Rog 19:58 That;s a lot, yes. Angelica Bullock 20:02 Did that feel more comforting to you or was that just the norm? Sr. Josephine Rog 20:06 -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �It was the normal, I knew there would be many and we did not have much time to talk with each other except at our recreation at night. And then you would be in a group and we'd be assigned group, you get your seat so that there was not much communication between them. On a free day, you know, you could talk to them and that was a joy, but we didn't have many of those. Angelica Bullock 20:32 Did you know anyone that joined the same time as you? Sr. Josephine Rog 20:37 I knew two, one was Jane Iannucelli, who was the former President, and the other was Helen, her married name Helen Fitzpatrick; she left. Helen left, after making vows and being on mission. So she was with us quite a few years. Both of us went to high school and graduated together and entered the same day. Angelica Bullock 21:05 Did they tell you beforehand that they were entering? Sr. Josephine Rog 21:09 Yes, yes. Angelica Bullock 21:12 And when did you finally have time to talk to the other sisters? Is that when you became a sister, an official sister? Sr. Josephine Rog 21:22 Yes, yes, after vows and coming on mission, we had more, you know, talking with each other. But even then we weren't allowed to visit the Convent. So it was mostly at meetings, that kind of thing. And then, of course, we became more friendly, like right now, three of us live here, who entered the same day. And so now, you know, really, and one of them I lived with at St. Agatha's for many, many years. So we are, we are friends, putting it that way. We really are. Angelica Bullock 21:59 So how does that feel to you, be with people that you have known, most of your.... Sr. Josephine Rog 22:09 Delightful! One, getting to know her much better, Evyleen Larkin and Sheila Finucane because I've lived with her so long at St. Agatha's, it's just nice not to have to give up that relationship and even at St. Agatha, we really were friends, and we shared the same TV and almost the same living quarters, because there we lived all over, all the different buildings. Angelica Bullock 22:35 So when I think about that, you've known those two sisters for 62 years, I think in the general public people would be surprised. Most people don't have friendships that long. So how do you feel about that? -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Josephine Rog 22:55 I think is a very wonderful thing. However, you have to remember at the beginning, we didn't see much of each other. But then when Sheila came to St. Agatha's, I was already there. So we got very close together. We think the same, you know, we have same goals and that kind of thing so we really hit it off right away. Sister Evyleen, I got to know her a lot better when she was in this house. But, while I was in the other house, but the two houses had a lot of connection, so I got to know her better then and now that I'm living with her, of course, I know her lot better. And it is wonderful to think of all the things we've been through together and now we're reliving to tell it for as long as we live. Angelica Bullock 23:55 When you entered at the age of 17 at that time was it uncommon for a 17 or 18-year-old to be considered an adult, or were you still viewed as a child? I say that as now. Sr. Josephine Rog 24:14 Definitely different from now. I was nine years old, I was babysitting for a newborn infant. Who would put a newborn infant in the hands of a nine year old today. Times were different. We grew up without so much extra things, bought things, we didn't have everything that the children have today. And so we grew up a little older, little harsher side. Happy, happy and wonderful. Nothing wrong with it. But I think we grew up a little bit faster. Angelica Bullock 24:50 So when you enter at 17 that was, you were... Sr. Josephine Rog 24:55 It was acceptable and most of the girls in our group were 17, 18, 19. There may be 2 who were a little bit older and that was the unusual. The older ones were the unusual ones. Angelica Bullock 25:18 How did you feel when you finally received your vows? Or, wait, I don't know the proper terminology. How did you feel? Sr. Josephine Rog 25:29 I really have to say that that was my goal. That's what I really wanted. Above and beyond everything else, it was vows when Vow Day came. For me, it was such a devotional kind of thing. I think I felt making vows in my very being as part of my own soul, because that was what I was wanting more than anything. Angelica Bullock 25:58 And for Vow Day, how does that work? Sr. Josephine Rog 26:02 -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Mother General, Mother Mary in my time, knelt, or maybe she sat on a chair, and we went up to a priedieu and knelt in front of her and said our vows to her into God. Her as the head of the community, that we were vowing our life to, and to God, who is our God. Angelica Bullock 26:26 And did every sister say the same vows? Sr. Josephine Rog 26:29 Yes, with their own name. Angelica Bullock 26:31 And during Vow Day was your family there? Sr. Josephine Rog 26:34 My mother, my father and my two grandmothers. In the novitiate, I had to get special permission to have my grandmothers come on our visit. They were so close to me, I could not have them not come on a visit. And my brother was at the age of 'forget it.' Angelica Bullock 26:54 Do you remember your family's emotions during that day. Sr. Josephine Rog 26:58 They all cried. I don't know about my father but they said my mother was sobbing. And my two grandmothers tears were coming down fully. Both of those grandmothers were born in Poland, as well as my grandfathers. That's why I was brought up so close to the Polish traditions. Angelica Bullock 27:20 So for our last couple of minutes, I'd like for us to talk about your ministries. Sr. Josephine Rog 27:26 I'm going to talk quickly. To my first mission, I was in Sacred Heart, West 51st Street, Hell's Kitchen, very tough neighborhood. Most wonderful children, street wise, language, whoo!, etc. But, heart of gold absolute heart of gold. I love those children. Taught first grade. Most of their families had a family member, mother or father or both, working down in Broadway. They were either dancers or they were theater managers or they had to do with setting-up the skits in the background and all of that for the place. They did a lot of odd jobs. But most of them were from there and they were just very wonderful children. Some were very bright and I sent them to the hospital down the road that had courses for gifted children. So that was that. Okay, from there, I went to St. Agatha Home. I was a group mother for 16 boys, at one point 18 boys, and they were mostly teenagers from 12, 13 up to 16. And that was a wonderful experience. I learned a lot from them. I learned football, I never knew about football, I learned football and just they were rough children, rough. Because they'd been with city children. And the first experience I had going into the cottage, was a boy down the stairs to the playroom and kept telling me I hate nuns. I hate nuns. So I yelled out. "Oh," I said, "David, you are so funny. Come on up and join us." I never had trouble with him again in all the years at the cottage. That was my first. - 10 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 27:26 Can you talk a little bit about the voice the boys that you were mothering like how they got to see St. Agatha Home. Sr. Josephine Rog 29:35 They were court committed. They're usually a member of their family was in jail or on drugs. Possibly, both of them had a problem. Most of them had a visitor on one Sunday a month from the city. But it was a very cold kind of visit. They sat at the table. Basically didn't talk to each other just was there, had the lunch we provided and then off went the parent. It was not a warm situation. A few had a warm situation, but very, very few. They were very responsive. They were grateful for what you did. They were mischievous. They were sexually active which was very hard. And I had a lot of night trouble. I had to get up during the night and check because they would be with each other. The were wonderful in sports. They liked anything I did for them extra. My aunt worked at Schwartz, if you ever remember a Schwartz, and she would get all the cakes that they couldn't use because they were smashed or banged or some icing taken off and she would save that for me. And the boys absolutely loved them. Angelica Bullock 30:54 How did it feel to be their mother? Right? Sr. Josephine Rog 30:58 I got the feeling that from the very, very beginning, knowing that I was the person who meant anything to them in their lifetime, whether they liked me or not, I was still there. I still provided for them. I gave them everything. I got them their food, I got people to cook it or me to cook it. It came from the kitchen or heated up, whatever but I learned that. And after we left, I got a call from one of the boys and all he could say is, "You're the only mother I knew in my life." And that got to me, really got to me. And others would say the same thing not in those words. Angelica Bullock 31:44 And how long did you work at St. Agatha Home? Sr. Josephine Rog 31:48 I worked there in different positions from 1963 to 1982. And I worked 11 years in the cottage with the boys. Or sometimes I was changed to girls, but whatever. Then I worked in the school on the grounds, public school. And then I worked, a public school closed by the way so I had to change jobs. I worked in purchasing at the home. Angelica Bullock 32:22 And did you like your time working there through all the different jobs you had? Sr. Josephine Rog 32:26 Very much, it was a wonderful place. None of us had an easy time because taking care of the children was not easy. We had long walks every day, going from the cottage down to the main building for our prayers and for our meals. We did not eat with the children. And we had to keep our own community so - 11 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �we came down to the main building. It's a long walk, sometimes very difficult in snow and cold. But nevertheless, we were young and it was wonderful for our health to do that, so it was a plus. The sisters were very good. We were very happy with each other. We had a lot of nice times when we get to meals and that kind of thing. We enjoyed each other's company. Angelica Bullock 32:59 Do you want to talk any more about ministries? Or? Sr. Josephine Rog 33:19 Well, I could say that from St. Agatha Home. I went to the rectory at New Rochelle, St. Gabriel's. Then from there, I could only stay there for a year I asked for a year to go there. I was granted it. I went to Convent of Mary the Queen in Yonkers, with our senior Sisters. And I was there until my mother needed care. So I spent about 30 years there. Angelica Bullock 33:50 And do you remember how you felt when Mary the Queen closed? Sr. Josephine Rog 33:56 Terrible. I didn't know what we were going to do with our Sisters. Even now, I just don't know. They're going to different places and it's very difficult. It's part of the times, it has to be. I know that and I understand that I'm not knocking it or blaming anybody for it. But what I do have to say I had hoped that in our later years, we could all be together and live our community together. And of course that's not working out. However, Kittay (nursing home, Bronx, N.Y.) and ALP (Assisted Living Program, Bronx, N.Y.) worked out beautifully. So I'm grateful for that. And those who are in Cabrini or St. Patrick's, there a little bit beyond that. So you know, maybe it did work out for the best but I'm still sad. And people on the outside when they find out I'm 62 years completed. They say to me, "Are you happy you went to the Sisters of Charity? Wouldn't you have been happy to be a doctor that you wanted to be? Wouldn't you be happier if you got married and had children?" I don't know. Those things are not uppermost in my mind. I'm happy I entered the Sisters of Charity. Am I happy that I entered at 17? Yes, I am. I don't know what would have happened during those years. I don't know what kind of young men I would meet and what we would do when all; I don't know. I may have been naive and gotten into trouble. I don't know, I really don't. I'm very happy. I entered the year I entered and the life we live. There are ups and downs. There are ups and downs in every life. If I had an abusive husband, I would be a wreck. I've never had abuse in community. I know. So yes, I am happy. And certainly my prayer life has brought me closer to our God which we're all trying to do in one way or another. Angelica Bullock 35:53 I think that's a great way to end. Okay, thank you, Sister. - 12 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Josephine Rog, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:58:00 Location The location of the interview St. Patrick Villa, Nanuet, New York Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rog, Josephine, SC, Interview Subject The topic of the resource Rog, Josephine, SC Interview, Oral History Description An account of the resource Sr. Josephine Rog discusses her life as a Sister of Charity of New York. The only girl and first child in her family, her parents hoped she would become a doctor however, accepted her decision to enter the order. Sr. Josephine details the daily experience as a novice at Mount Saint Vincent, and the challenges of teaching in Hell's Kitchen, and caring for orphan boys at St. Agatha Home, Nanuet. She emphasizes the influence of the Sisters in her life from her time as a volunteer at St. Joseph's Orphan Asylum, and the enrichment of her life through the comraderie she enjoys with other members of the Community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rog, Josephine, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/3/2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rog, Sister Josephine, SC, Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York Education Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/09949f91ef7bf01e600b33aea06d5426.jpg 8326cc3a4657486cd56e51ad20ed8e8c https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/1ed7318f195737913bea8666f0621060.mp3 1fb0fc65ace16bbc8b81ce1604e2ea89 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c4558a10e8fd2aa8520bac132da57748.pdf 0ef74f0b5bb72e5d3db878f85cb4aaf9 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Patricia Quinn, SC September 26th, 2019: 10:34AM • 36:32 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is September 26th, 2019. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. The interviewee is Sister Pat Quinn. We are in the Archives at Boyle Hall and we are in the Reading Room. And the time is 1:37 pm. Sr. Pat, can you state your full name? Sr. Pat Quinn 00:25 My full name is Sr. Patricia Ann Quinn. Angelica Bullock 00:32 And your religious name? Sr. Pat Quinn 00:36 My religious name, Patricia Carmel Quinn. Angelica Bullock 00:42 And what is your current age? Sr. Pat Quinn 00:44 Right now? I'm 73. Angelica Bullock 00:48 And do you remember the day that you entered the congregation? Sr. Pat Quinn 00:53 I do remember some of it. I don't remember all of it. I remember coming my parents and my family. And being out on the lawn. And then at a certain, of course, my mother was upset. Not that she wasn't happy for me. She was just upset that I was leaving home, I guess. And then I remember I suppose a bell rang, and we went in to the postulatum and changed into our postulatum, lot of clothes, postulant clothes, and came back out. I think we came back out, I'm not sure. I know we had benediction that day before the parents left. So that's all I remember about that day. It was a long time ago. Angelica Bullock 01:39 Do you remember what was your age? Sr. Pat Quinn 01:41 I was 17 and-one-half at the time, and that was 1963. And I've been in the congregation now 56 years. Hard to believe; the time has gone by very fast. Angelica Bullock 01:56 Okay, so now we're going to just talk a little bit about your family life. Where were you born? -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Pat Quinn 02:03 I was born in Manhattan on the Upper West Side, actually on West 105th Street, and that's where I grew up and lived until the time I entered. My parents had come from Ireland in the 1920s and from the same town, Longford, in Ireland, and I had one sister and four brothers; I'm sorry, not four brothers, three brothers. There were five of us all together. One brother is my twin brother, Mike. So there were five all together. I had a cousin in religious life, she was Sr. John Carmel. That's how I got to have Carmel as part of my religious name and she later became my sponsor when I entered. The parish I belonged to was Ascension on West 107th Street was the church, on 108th street was the school that I went to for grammar school. Then I went onto Blessed Sacrament High School on West 70th Street. Angelica Bullock 03:23 And how did you pick those schools, or how did your parents pick those schools? Well, in those days, like now, you had to take a test to get into the high schools. And that school was close to me, I was on 105th and that school was on West 70th street and it was also a Sister of Charity school. So I guess the location helped a lot, you know, it wasn't that far to go because you had to go by bus. So then when I entered, of course, I went to the college here (College of Mount Saint Vincent). And I also went to Hunter College. I got my master's degree in Hunter (College), and I got another master's degree from St. Joseph's Seminary, Masters of Religious Education. Angelica Bullock 04:19 What was your Masters degree in? Sr. Pat Quinn 04:20 From the Mount (College of Mount Saint Vincent), English. That was my first degree. And at Hunter my Master's was in teaching reading. So I was in school you might say from in college anyway from '63 to '81. Angelica Bullock 04:42 Wow. Sr. Pat Quinn 04:45 And sometimes going down to Hunter after teaching all day, because that's when you took your courses for your Masters. So you taught all day, then you got on the subway, went down to Hunter, came back at night. Angelica Bullock 04:59 That sounds tiring. Sr. Pat Quinn 05:01 It was tiring. Angelica Bullock 05:02 Did you usually do that travel by yourself or were you doing that with other sisters? -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Pat Quinn 05:08 It depended on the course. Another Sister in my group lived with me at the time. I can't remember if we had courses at the same time, though. Could be we went together, I forget. But it was after school and Saturday mornings sometimes, depending on the course, as I said. Angelica Bullock 05:35 And how did you decide to get Master's degrees? Did your superiors suggest that to you? Or was that something you wanted to do? Or a little bit of both? Sr. Pat Quinn 05:44 Well, no, when I first was assigned, I was assigned to St. Peter and Paul School in the South Bronx. And I had to finish my degree here at the Mount. So I went on Saturdays till I got that degree and then after that, we didn't really have superiors assigned to us. So it was really by choice. But you needed to have a Master's degree, you know. And since I was in school, I enjoyed getting the Masters in teaching, reading, since I was teaching younger kids. And then I went on in the Seminary for the MRE. That was a choice also. Angelica Bullock 06:29 Can you talk about your time at the Seminary a little bit? Sr. Pat Quinn 06:33 Well, it was just classes that were held at the Seminary that you could get a Master's in religious education. I wasn't part of the Seminary with the fellows who were studying to be priests. It was classes that you could get after school or on a Saturday so you can get your degree. It was good. The classes were good. It was taught for the most part by Seminary professors who were teaching the seminarians So they were good courses, you know, in dogma, morality, scripture. There was a fourth one I forget what it is, morality, I forget. So I got my degree there and I think it was in '81. Angelica Bullock 07:22 Okay, let's go on. Why did you join the Sisters of Charity of New York? Sr. Pat Quinn 07:28 Primarily because of the Sisters that I met at Ascension and Blessed Sacrament. I had a cousin who was a Sister of Charity at the time, and I wanted to teach especially young children, and that was the charism of the Sisters of Charity; education. I waited till after high school because I kept on fighting with myself whether I really wanted to do this or not. So I said, "I think I will just enter and get this off my mind." So I had a petition to Mother Loretta Bernard, she was the President of the Congregation at the time, and the Council. And I waited til the last possible day to petition and thinking if I didn't like it, well, I will leave, but at least it will be off my mind, and I will stop thinking about whether I wanted to be a Sister of Charity or not. So it's obvious I didn't leave; here I am. My sponsor was my cousin, Jackie Dunne. She was Sr. John Carmel. She was my first cousin. And so she became my sponsor. My parents didn't object, they said whatever you want to do. They wanted me to be happy. So whatever I wanted to do, and that's what I wanted to do. So I petitioned and entered on September 8th, 1963. -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 09:11 Did you think that maybe it was easier to have a cousin who was already a Sister in the order? Sr. Pat Quinn 09:20 I guess it was, but after I entered I didn't see her, except well, maybe a couple of times during the year, they had Saturday or Sunday that we have sponsored visits. And then everybody's sponsor would come that day, but I didn't see her any more frequently than I did before I entered. Angelica Bullock 09:51 Were you in different buildings? Sr. Pat Quinn 09:55 Well, I was here at the Mount she was over I think at the time at St. Barnabas. When I entered I remember going up there to talk to her at Barnabas. And then she was in other places as the years went on. But that's where she was when I entered. I liked the Sisters that I had in school. I loved my first-grade teacher. Sr. Thomas was her name, Sr. Thomas Marie Callahan. And my eighth-grade teacher, Sr. Marion Margaret Sullivan, both of whom are deceased. And of course then I also had my cousin, But the sisters in grammar school and high school were really an inspiration. You know, they were always there. They gave us a good education. You know, and I liked seeing them walking around the neighborhood. After school, I guess they went out in partners and they walked. We would always see them on the avenue walking. I felt like they were with us, you know, in the neighborhood. When I became a postulant, I had Sr. Agnes Connelly. She was the mistress of postulants and Sr. Kathleen Hanrahan was the mistress of novices. And I truly enjoyed the novitiate. I liked everything about it. Even though at times I was homesick, I still enjoyed being there. You know, and they were very good. Later on we had the juniorate. It was one of the first juniorates and it was located up here in LeGras. Yeah, it was in LeGras and that was the juniory. One time, Sr. Ellen Quirke in charge of the juniory. She gave me a task, she's gave me a can of green paint to go out and paint all the windowsills. Well, I did but, unfortunately, I never stirred the paint. So every windowsill was a different green. So she said, "Didn't you stir the paint?" I said, 'No, I never painted windowsills before in my life.' But anyway, so that was interesting. After the juniory, I went up to St. Joseph's (Seminary) here in Yonkers to live. To get some more courses done. That was an innovation too. Because until then, it took the Sisters years and years to get their first degree. We had the opportunity of studying while we're in the juniory and also, another year after that, we lived on mission and we came back each day for classes. So we really were able to get, credits and that was a great help to us. Because when we were sent down on mission, there weren't that many more courses that you needed to get on a Saturday. Because you had many of your credits done. So then it was at that time of Vatican II. When I was in the novitiate, Vatican II started. Things were always changing in the Community and in the Church, so you kind of got used to rolling with everything. We were the first ones who entered who wore veils, instead of those white shower caps that you see a postulant, pictures of postulants wear; we didn't have any of that. People came with their curlers and -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �the veils were see-through, they would just like net and that went across and it tied behind, underneath your hair, see-through So that was a big innovation for the Congregation. Then as time went on when we came to First Vows, they had a habit, a newly designed habit that was supposed to look more like Mother Seton. It was designed by Bergdorf Goodman. It was shorter; the capes were very short. None of us liked it. Angelica Bullock 14:29 Why not? Sr. Pat Quinn 14:31 First of all, we didn't like looking different from everybody else. We did have that same high collar, and we wore black, sheer stockings with it. And pumps, we didn't have those tie Oxfords that we had. We had pumps, but I don't think any of us enjoyed wearing that. We were supposed to wear it on Sundays but most often we went back to what we had been wearing as novices. But things were always changing at that time. And that year after the juniory when I was sent to St. Joseph's, Yonkers is where I met my dear friend, Sr. Kieran (Mulligan). She was stationed and teaching there, and we became fast friends from that time on. I only lived with her there for that one year, but our friendship has endured all these years. Yeah, we just clicked right off. You know, I thought I was going to be staying there because they had said that the mission that you went to where you were studying for that year would be the mission that you would be assigned to. However, there were no class openings. So for most of us, they had to change us, because there were no classes to give us. For the most part, we were teachers. So that's when I was sent after that year down to St. Peter and Paul for my first teaching. I taught the second grade there. Angelica Bullock 16:13 And you have any memories from St. Peter and Paul you would like to share? Sr. Pat Quinn 16:21 Well, we had great kids. We had a big school. We had about 500 kids in that school when I first went there. And it was a very good school. It has since closed, it closed last year there. But the kids were great. The parents were great. It was a nice community there of people and sisters. When I went there, there were 12 sisters. Not that everyone was in the school but they were in the Convent. And we did aside from teaching, we did do home visiting, we visited the families, in their home and a lot of time in the evening you could send for parents. They would come to the Convent if you had problems with the child, to talk to you. So, I also did the CCD and I ran the CCD there. So that was another, from First Communion all the way to Confirmation I taught, and I ran it. So we were very busy there. I was at St. Peter and Paul for 36 years. And then when the Convent closed, I moved up to St. Peter. St. Peter to teach, but I lived up in Sacred Heart at first and then I moved from Sacred Heart to the Mount where I am now. Angelica Bullock 18:06 How did you feel when it closed. The school has been around for a long time? -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Pat Quinn 18:12 The school was still around but what happened was that the Sisters were aging. We had Sisters there, some had died, but we had Sisters who got sickly and had to go to the Convent of Mary the Queen. We couldn't keep that Convent going and it closed in 2014. I traveled back and forth for one year to that school while I lived up in Sacred Heart. But we had no Sisters. Michelle McKeon was the principal there at that time when it did close, just within the last year or two it closed. It's a charter school, I think. We used to have not only our school, but we had a branch of Cathedral (High School) there. They could go there for one year. So we also had the girls from Cathedral. It was a nice school. Angelica Bullock 19:21 Do you have any opinions on Catholic schools now, especially since your schools have Sisters in them? Sr. Pat Quinn 19:31 Well, we don't have many Sisters in the schools. Because we don't have the Sisters. It's unfortunate, but it's harder and harder to run the schools money-wise. So I go to St. Peter twice a week, as do some of the other Sisters as volunteers. But we don't have any sisters on staff. In most of the schools, it's lay faculty. Years ago, the Sisters of Charity had the schools up and down Manhattan, practically every parish up and down there were Sisters in. But we just don't have the Sisters now. But the lay staff is doing a great job with them. But money continues to be a big problem. And it's very hard for people to afford tuition. I don't know how they do it. They must give up a lot because the tuition is so high. A funny thing happened, there was a little boy that I taught at St. Peter. I taught him in the first grade. And every day I would see his mother and say hello to the mother. He was there for first, second, third and I think fourth grade and each day I'd say hello to the mother and sometimes the father would be there waiting to take this little boy home. They moved up to Wappingers Falls, and they lived opposite our school up there, St. Mary's, that we have in Wappingers Falls. We don't have the Sisters there. Sr. Kieran (Mulligan) was there for a long time. Anyway, I was up there one time just within the last three or four weeks. And who did I meet in Walmart of all places, but this mother. And so we're standing there talking, and we're talking and talking. It turned out, I had taught the mother in St. Peter and Paul. Now when I think about her I say I think I do remember her as a little child, but I would have to see a picture. Well, she was so shocked. She said, "I did have a Sr. Patricia," not realizing I was the one. We haven't seen or talked to each other about school, you know. I never realized and she was so shocked, and she said, "Oh, my sister is here. You taught my sister, too." So she brought over her sister who was shopping. We had a great conversation about people they knew, people I knew who was there. They knew the Sisters that had been there. As one of them said, her sister said, "The sisters there were like our mothers because our mothers were working and not there all the time." You know, but they said, "The Sisters were like our mothers. When we were got to school, we were at home." Of course, the little boy goes to school up there now, but she says, "Wait till I tell Ensly," that's the little boy, "wait till I tell him that you were my teacher too." So you never know where you're going to meet these kids now who are not kids anymore. They're adults raising kids, but we had nice people there. Angelica Bullock 23:13 How do you feel about your students that still remembering you and the nice words? -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Pat Quinn 23:19 Oh well, that's nice. Yes. And it's nice to see that they've gone on and they're successful, and that they enjoyed their time in the schools. I'm still in contact with some who have their own children. Now, this girl in Florida that I taught I think I taught her in the fourth grade. She has a girl now who's a senior in high school. And we email back and forth, and she sent pictures and things. It's nice. And it's nice to know that they appreciated the sisters that were there and the education they received. There's a boy in All Hallows that I taught; he's a teacher in All Hallows. So it makes you feel good that they have gotten something from their education and have gone on. Because that was not the greatest neighborhood when we were there. But the kids took advantage of their education and they went on to do well. So that's very good. Now, what I'm doing is going to St. Peter. I'm also teaching English classes here in Sr. Jean (Bocian) and Sr. Therese McElroy's Casa de Esperanza and I enjoy doing that. That's the other end of the spectrum where you have adults. I'm so used to having little kids. Although they have their little babies with them in the classroom, which is sometimes a challenge, but it's nice to be with the adults and they really want to learn their English. So that's good. I wouldn't want to change anything that I've done. Angelica Bullock 25:14 The students at Casa de Esperanza, where are they mostly coming from? What country? Sr. Pat Quinn 25:22 Well, there were was, let me see today in class, I just started this year now today; several from Mexico. There was a Muslim lady, and I couldn't get exactly the country, she said, but she was not Hispanic. Someone was from Guatemala. So a lot of the central Hispanic countries there, Central America, Mexico. Angelica Bullock 25:56 And how much English do they have coming into the classroom? Sr. Pat Quinn 26:01 They've been coming, they came last year every day, four days a week. I think Friday is the only the day that they don't go. So they're pretty good. The ones that I have are what we call the second year. So they have some English and then after the second year there's a class that's all conversation. They're anxious, very anxious to learn. How does it feel still being a teacher? Still teaching? Well, I guess that's what I was made to do. I was made to teach. I enjoy it. Although they bring their babies, sometimes it gets a little noisy. You know, the baby's crying. They want naps and you're trying to teach. But it's still good. And it's nice that they want that English. And it's a nice program for them. You know, I get to meet other young mothers who have little babies like they do, and they can bring the babies with them and that's very important. There is in that same building the Board of Education, Yonkers Board of Education has English classes, but you can't bring your kids with you. Which means these young mothers wouldn't be able to come unless they had someone who would mind the babies and the babies are kind of young to leave them with other people. But this way, they bring them with them and they have little things in the back of the room and they have a woman who takes care of them. They have toys and stuff like that and yet they know their mother is there. And the mothers can learn, they can meet other people. There's coffee after class, so they can have a cup of coffee before they start going home. And they can make friends with other people, who are in the same boat as they are. They drop -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �their children off, some of them were telling me they have kids in kindergarten and pre-K in another school that they bring them to first, so it's not easy. Then they come to the English class. So it's not easy for them; they want to learn. That makes it nice being with them. They're a nice group of women. How does the mission of the Sisters of Charity relate to my work? Well, education has always been mission of the Sisters of Charity. So I'm walking in the footsteps of Elizabeth (Mother Seton). And I never wanted to teach older kids. The oldest grade I ever taught was fourth grade for one year. But I wasn't happy with it, that didn't have anything to do with the kids. But I like the spontaneity of the little ones. They're funny, they give you a good laugh every day. Not maybe when you're in the room, but later when you think about it, so that was funny. So I would say, yes, that is the mission of the Sisters of Charity to be in education. And you meet a lot of fine teachers and parents, aside from the kids, so all those relationships are good. When I entered President John F. Kennedy was the President. As a matter of fact, I was only a postulant a couple of months. He was assassinated in November of 1963. We had no TV but they brought a TV into the novitiate room so we could see all the news reports on that. It was also the time Lyndon B. Johnson then of course, took over for him. They gave him the oath in Air Force One. And they didn't have a Bible with them. So they used the St. Joseph's missal, which must have belonged to President Kennedy, because who else would have a Catholic missal in the plane? That's what they used. It was also the years of Martin Luther King, when he had the March on Washington, 250,000. And he gave the 'I Have a Dream' speech. So I was here for that. It was the year that the cassette tape recorder was introduced, larger than that one that you have, but that was like a big innovation to have a cassette tape player. So that was part of the history. Angelica Bullock 29:10 There was a lot going on. Sr. Pat Quinn 31:13 There was a lot going on. And then after that we had the Vietnam War. Yeah, a lot going on. Angelica Bullock 31:19 Did you feel all that stuff going on? Did you feel like you were keeping up with everything current? Or did you feel like you were kind of behind because you were... Sr. Pat Quinn 31:32 We were behind because we were in the novitiate. And the only time we would get to newspapers, was when we took the garbage out and we lined the garbage can with newspapers, but you might not be able to read recent news. Who knows when you got those papers may have been sitting there for months, but at least you could read something while you were lining the garbage can. That was how we got our news. Because we didn't have TV or radio. No. If visitors came, like my mother came for a visit and she said something about, "The Beatles have arrived." I thought it was the bugs. The Beatles. I didn't know what she was talking about. It was the strangest thing. The Beatles have arrived. I said, "What is that?" And she said, "Oh, it's a singing group." We didn't know any of that. No, because you were really closed off. -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �However, we did have the World's Fair in let me see, '64. I was a first-year novice. We didn't expect that they would let us go because the first year of novitiate was like cloistering. But we got to go. We went on buses and we had a wonderful time. I remember being there with my mother, my father, my twin brother. I can't remember if my other older brother was there, he may have been. But I know my twin was there. And we had a great time at the World's Fair, wonderful. Part of it was that we just didn't expect, we figured everyone else would go, but we won't be able to go. So things were constantly changing. They were new surprises all the time. Angelica Bullock 33:31 Was it hard to keep up with all of the changes in the outside world, and then also any in your community or were you just used to it? Did it not seem unusual? Sr. Pat Quinn 33:44 Well, we didn't really keep up with the outside world. There was no way without TV, radio and newspapers. You know, unless you heard, as they say, from visitors or something, you know, we were cloistered in that way. Unless somebody mentioned that they heard this or they heard that. You know, you didn't really know. Angelica Bullock 34:12 How did you feel about that? Sr. Pat Quinn 34:16 Looking back I think we just didn't expect that we would be hear what was happening. You knew there were no TVs and no radios, you know. So you just, you know, lived each day. We had our studies to do, we were going over to the college for courses. And that was a new thing also that we took classes with the girls and the college. That was new. Of course, it was hard because we had to do that work, but we were on a very different schedule than the girls. We had a regular regimen and at nighttime, we had a study hour. Well, you know all the work you have to do in college. You had more free time when you were in the juniory. I remember going over to the Castle (Font Hill at Mount Saint Vincent), it was the library at the time. And I was taking Shakespeare, a course in Shakespeare, and they had all the tapes over there. And you could sit in the library and listen to the tape while you were reading it, which made more sense to me than anything, and that was really nice. Then they couldn't use that library anymore. I think the building itself, the structure, I guess, was not safe to have a lot of people in it. But in those days, that was the library and it was nice. You know, but you had to keep up with your classwork. And then we had other duties that we were doing, so you didn't have an awful lot of time when it was study time. You have to really try to put your mind to it. I already mentioned that I have a twin brother, Mike. That was always an Irish joke. There were always jokes about Pat and Mike. And that's what we are, Pat and Mike. I don't see him often because he's in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I enjoy, I love being a Sister of Charity. I love seeing and meeting and being with a dedicated and fine group of women who have an extraordinary history. -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Patricia Quinn, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) Location The location of the interview Mount Saint Vincent, Bronx, New York Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Quinn, Sister Patricia, SC, Interview Subject The topic of the resource Quinn, Patricia, SC Interview, Oral History Description An account of the resource Inspired by her cousin Sr. John Carmel Dunne, her sponsor in the Community, Sr. Patricia Quinn details her life as a Sister of Charity of New York from her early experiences as a postulant and novice. Sr. Patricia was an elementary school teacher for over 50 years and during her retirement, continues to tutor at St. Peter and Paul School and at Casa de Esperanza in Yonkers, N.Y. Sr. Patricia earned a Master's degree in Teaching and in Religious Education. Sr. Patricia's love of learning and teaching young children is evident in the stories she relates about her teachers and her students. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Quinn, Patricia, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/26/2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Quinn, Sister Patricia, Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York Education Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/0b2ba40b59f156ba80c0035e1cee9a35.jpg 9e48e6e5ae5a0edab0ec393cca52999d https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/843d340d99d6b78cb02f51eec98710b7.pdf 610021b0f37d06f00f104522ab70dc5e PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Ellen Quirke, SC Tuessday, October 15, 2019, 1:32PM • 42:27 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is October 15th, 2019. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. The interviewee is Sister Ellen Quirke. We are at the Kittay (nursing home, Bronx, N.Y.) apartments. And it is about 3:15 in the afternoon. Sr. Ellen, can you please state your full name. Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:24 Sr. Ellen Quirke. Angelica Bullock 00:26 And your religious name? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:29 Sr. Ellen Marie Quirke. Angelica Bullock 00:33 What is your age currently? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:36 I'm ninety-two years old. Angelica Bullock 00:40 And what date did you enter the congregation? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:42 September 8, 1945. Angelica Bullock 00:46 What was your age at that time? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:49 Seventeen. Excuse me no, I was eighteen. Angelica Bullock 00:53 About how many years have you been in the congregation? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:57 Seventy some-odd years. -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 01:01 Now I would just like to know a little bit to talk about some general information concerning your family life. So where were you born? Sr. Ellen Quirke 01:11 I was born in Manhattan, in New York City, to Mr. and Mrs. Quirke, Helen O'Connell and John Quirke, and I had three brothers, Jack, Neil and Bud. And I was the only girl. I was the third oldest of the four of us. Angelica Bullock 01:38 And where were your parents born? Where were their place of origin? Sr. Ellen Quirke 01:43 They were both from Ireland County, Abbeyfield, County Limerick. Angelica Bullock 01:47 Do you have family members and religious life? Do you have any other family members...? Sr. Ellen Quirke 01:53 One brother who was a Jesuit, Neil was a Jesuit. He died in 1968 and another brother. had been a Christian brother and he left the order and married. That was my brother James, my younger brother. My oldest brother Jack died when he was 23. Angelica Bullock 02:25 Besides your two brothers, did you have any other family members in religious life, maybe in Ireland? Sr. Ellen Quirke 02:31 Here in this country, I had another cousin who was another Jesuit. Same time as my brother Neil, Bob O'Connell. Angelica Bullock 02:43 What were the schools that you attended? What grammar school and high school? Sr. Ellen Quirke 02:48 Incarnation Grammar School and Holy Cross Academy. Angelica Bullock 02:54 Were those schools run by the Sisters of Charity? Sr. Ellen Quirke 02:58 Both of them were yes. They both were. Angelica Bullock 03:01 And why did you attend those two schools? -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:07 My mother wanted me to go. Angelica Bullock 03:11 Why did you join the Sisters of Charity of the New York? Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:16 I was very interested in Damien the Leper. Reading his biography, and I just wanted to be able to help people. He was a priest who worked in Molokai down in the Hawaiian Islands. Worked with the lepers down there. Angelica Bullock 03:36 How did you hear about him? Did you hear about him in school? Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:39 Yeah, yes. In school. During religion classes. Angelica Bullock 03:47 Was he a priest? Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:48 Yes. Angelica Bullock 03:52 Did you think you are going to work with people with leprosy or did you just... Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:56 No, I thought more like missionary things. Angelica Bullock 04:02 You said you joined when you were 18 years old? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:05 Yes. Angelica Bullock 04:08 How did your family feel about you joining? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:11 Fine, there was no problem with them? For the most part, the Irish are really proud to have religious in the family. -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 04:21 Can you talk a little bit about the process of becoming a sister? Do you remember anything that stands out? Maybe first day of joining or...? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:31 No, not particularly? No. Angelica Bullock 04:35 Do you remember your sponsor? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:38 Yes. She was my eighth grade teacher. Angelica Bullock 04:47 Do you remember her name? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:49 Yes, Sr. Marguerite. Angelica Bullock 04:51 Would you like to talk a little bit about your life as a novice and a postulant? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:57 It wasn't really remarkable at all. I kind of went along with the rules and regulations were. What I found hard was the silence and the walking in lines. I found that very difficult. Angelica Bullock 05:16 When did you have to be silent? Were there just certain times during the day? Sr. Ellen Quirke 05:20 Oh, yes, yes. Angelica Bullock 05:25 What would happen if you weren't silent? So, if you wanted to talk to someone... Sr. Ellen Quirke 05:30 Well, you'd be embarrassed in front of the other people because you know it was a rule, to keep silence and you wanted to keep the rules if you're going to stay in the convent. Angelica Bullock 05:40 Can you think of anyone at that time who broke the rules? -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 05:44 No. Angelica Bullock 05:45 Everyone mostly... Sr. Ellen Quirke 05:46 No, pretty much everybody kind of went along with it pretty much. Nobody stands out because having broken the rule. They wouldn't have stayed, I don't think Angelica Bullock 06:03 How many people have joined with you? Like how many people were in your ... Sr. Ellen Quirke 06:06 I think there might have been around twenty-four, twenty-two, twenty-four. I'm the last one left of that crowd. All the others have died. Angelica Bullock 06:24 Did you know any of the girls before your joined? Were they in your high school or in your neighborhood? Sr. Ellen Quirke 06:32 Oh, yes. One of my friends lived next door to me. She was born next door to me. And she entered too. I had some of my high school friends enter but they entered later on not at the same time. Angelica Bullock 06:51 Okay. And did that comfort you knowing that you knew people already going in with you? Sr. Ellen Quirke 06:59 I don't remember it comforting me at the time, but I guess it must have. Yes. How did you feel joining? Were you nervous? Were you excited? I can't say I was excited because I forget there was some popular song that was going on at that time was right when WWII was over, just over. And I was going the night before out with my friends and we were going on a sentimental journey; it wasn't so sentimental. But I was nervous the night before. Angelica Bullock 07:36 When you enter at eighteen, times have changed so much, eighteen now is considered very young. But when you were eighteen are you considered an adult, did you feel like you were an adult? Sr. Ellen Quirke 07:51 Well, boys could go into the service; they could be drafted. That was the WWII. So, we weren't considered young, we weren't considered old, but we weren't youngsters. -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 08:08 Did you have any friends or know people who were eighteen that were at the time getting married or.. Sr. Ellen Quirke 08:16 No, I didn't know anybody, no. Angelica Bullock 08:18 So, if you weren't going to be a Sister, what did other people do at the age of eighteen, that were eighteen-year-old girls? Sr. Ellen Quirke 08:29 They mostly went to work at General Motors or the New York Telephone company, or in the bank, Manufacturers Hanover bank. They got jobs. And the boys were away in service then. Angelica Bullock 08:49 Were any of your brothers at the time drafted? Sr. Ellen Quirke 08:54 No. Angelica Bullock 08:55 Do you remember anything about more times than when you were ... Sr. Ellen Quirke 08:59 Oh, I remember an awful lot about it. The blackouts and the fear that we were going to be bombed and that the Japanese boats were in the ocean, we were down at the beach. Always afraid of being bombed. We'd have the blackouts. And then seeing the stars on the window with the mothers who lost their sons afterwards. We were living in apartment houses. They'd have their stars on the window and another one had been killed. Angelica Bullock 09:33 What exactly are black-outs? Just like today, no power? Sr. Ellen Quirke 09:39 You had to shut off the electricity. You weren't allowed to put the electricity on because they were afraid the airplanes would come and bomb the building. So, the streetlights went out and they had wardens going around the street to make sure the lights were out. And you had rationing of certain foods you couldn't get unless you had a ration stamp for them. Angelica Bullock 10:01 Since you're so young, does that just seem like a normal life? -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 10:06 No, no, no, no. You knew it wasn't normal. Angelica Bullock 10:13 Is there anything else you remember during that time? Sr. Ellen Quirke 10:17 About the war time? Always hearing, fearing to hear about another boy in the neighborhood who was killed or a father who was killed and you couldn't get all the shoes you wanted. You could only get two pair of shoes a year. Angelica Bullock 10:34 Wow. Sr. Ellen Quirke 10:34 You had to have ration stamps to get them. You didn't have nylon. Nylon was used for parachutes. So, you couldn't get nylon stockings or nylon slips. Angelica Bullock 10:51 And what was your life as a novice and postulant like? I'm going back to that, sorry. Sr. Ellen Quirke 10:57 Well, it was getting to know what the routine was going to be and we were going to school, we were studying at the same time, going to college and getting classes. Angelica Bullock 11:08 Do you remember who the Mother Superior was at the time? Sr. Ellen Quirke 11:11 Yes, Sr. Alphonse Mary [McGinley, 1945-1950] who was a very generous woman, very human. Angelica Bullock 11:22 What made her generous and human? Sr. Ellen Quirke 11:25 That was her nature to be that way. She wasn't rigid. Some of those superiors could be very rigid. Angelica Bullock 11:37 What was your relationship with the Mother Superior? Did you see her every day? Or was it more of like she was there, but you didn't really have contact with her. Sr. Ellen Quirke 11:50 She was there. We knew she was there. We were conscious of her presence, and sometimes she'd have a class, and we'd be learning things, she'd be teaching us. -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 12:03 Do you remember the name of the Mother General at the time? Sr. Ellen Quirke 12:08 There were a couple of when I entered it was Mother Berchmans [Mother Mary Berchmans Reed, 1948-1954] was the second. I didn't know her at all. I knew Berchmans, but I didn't know Josephine [Mother Mary Josephine Taaffe, 1941-1948]. Angelica Bullock 12:23 During that time, how did you interact with the other girls who were joining? Did you get to talk to them? Sr. Ellen Quirke 12:30 Oh surely, yes. Angelica Bullock 12:34 Did you all live together? Sr. Ellen Quirke 12:36 Yes, we all lived together. Slept in dorms. And we worked together. And we went to school together. Angelica Bullock 12:50 Other Sisters have mentioned that it took them very long to complete their degrees because they were working. Sr. Ellen Quirke 12:57 Oh, we were teaching at the same time, and going to school on Saturdays. Angelica Bullock 13:01 Okay. Sr. Ellen Quirke 13:03 That changed in the '60s. We all had teaching certificates to teach, and we had to have a certain amount of College before you could teach. Angelica Bullock 13:16 About what age do you think you started teaching then? Sr. Ellen Quirke 13:22 I was twenty. Angelica Bullock 13:26 Do you remember your first mission? -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 13:28 Oh, yes. It was at St. Margaret's in Riverdale, third grade for eight years. So, I got to know the all the children of that time. Angelica Bullock 13:45 Did you always teach the third grade? Sr. Ellen Quirke 13:46 Yes, in St. Margaret's I did. Yes. But I moved around after that. Angelica Bullock 13:54 I'm guessing I haven't heard any sister say so far that they've stayed at that one teaching assignment for that many years. Did you like doing that? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:05 I did, I loved the third grade. That's a great age group of children. Angelica Bullock 14:11 And did you teach girls and boys there? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:14 Yes. I had sixty in a class. Angelica Bullock 14:17 How many? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:18 Sixty. And they were taught. Some places had one hundred. Angelica Bullock 14:26 Did they all fit in a regular size class? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:29 Yes. But the desk was stationary. They weren't moveable desks and chairs. Angelica Bullock 14:40 Did you ever feel overwhelmed teaching sixty children? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:44 No. No, I liked teaching and I think that's why I liked it. And I liked the kids very much. Angelica Bullock 14:56 Are there any of those students that you still, remember? -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 15:01 Yes. Some of them come to see me. Angelica Bullock 15:06 So, when you first started teaching that first year that you were put in the classroom for third grade, did you expect that's how the situation was going to be? Did you expect that you were going to have 60 students in your class? Sr. Ellen Quirke 15:23 I didn't think about it, I didn' think about it. Because the classes were big when we went to school ourselves. The classes were always big. Angelica Bullock 15:35 During that time, I just think of 60 kids I just think of rowdy... Sr. Ellen Quirke 15:41 No, oh no. They wouldn't dare; they wouldn' dare. Angelica Bullock 15:47 At St. Margaret's all the teachers there were Sisters of Charity? Sr. Ellen Quirke 15:52 No, not all of them. We had lay teachers. Angelica Bullock 15:58 Do you remember any of your other missions? Sr. Ellen Quirke 16:01 Oh yes, of course. Do you want to know them all? Angelica Bullock 16:04 Sure! Sr. Ellen Quirke 16:05 The next year after St. Margaret's, I went down to Holy Name on 97th Street, fourth grade boys. Boys' department at Holy Name, brothers had the boys' department. I was there for a year. That's when we became very aware that the Puerto Ricans were coming into New York City and into the schools. It was the influx of a lot of Puerto Ricans. We had a lot of Puerto Rican children in the school. And the Sisters, I didn't go, but the Sisters went to Puerto Rico in the summertime to learn Spanish. That was around 1956. Angelica Bullock 16:50 And were most of the students then who were coming from Puerto Rico, were they mostly just speaking Spanish? - 10 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 16:56 Yes. A lot of them were. I didn't have them all. They were mostly in the first grade at the time. They started in the first grade. And I was there for a year and then I went down to Xavier. I had the fourth grade in Xavier. Angelica Bullock 17:17 And was that co-ed or just boys? Sr. Ellen Quirke 17:19 Now in Xavier it was boys and girls. Smaller class. I believe around thirty-five. And then I went one year there and then I went to St. Agnes' to the seventh grade. Angelica Bullock 17:22 Oh, okay. Seventh grade? Sr. Ellen Quirke 17:39 Loved it, loved it. I learned so much in being with the children younger and then when they get older and then older; you got older with them. And you knew how to deal with the older ones. Weren't sarcastic. Of course, they understood it and they knew it then. And I was only there a year and I went to St. Denis in Yonkers, the eighth grade. And I loved the eighth grade. We had a great time together. Angelica Bullock 18:16 And how long were you at St. Denis? Sr. Ellen Quirke 18:17 One year. Angelica Bullock 18:18 One year? Sr. Ellen Quirke 18:20 And then I went to Mount Carmel in East Harlem, an Italian neighborhood, with a lot of Puerto Ricans on the fringe of the neighborhood who didn't get along with the Italians at all. And the Italians didn't get along with the Puerto Ricans, I should say. However, that was a good experience, being Principal of the school. Learning different cultures and respecting them. Angelica Bullock 19:14 How was your transition from teacher to principal? Sr. Ellen Quirke 19:18 It was fine. I was ready for it. - 11 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 19:30 Mount Carmel, was that run by the Sisters of Charity? Sr. Ellen Quirke 19:33 Yes, yes. All the schools were that I mentioned. Angelica Bullock 19:39 Were the teachers there mostly Sisters or lay or a mixture? Sr. Ellen Quirke 19:44 No, we had lay teachers, we had quite a few lay teachers. The one that was there sent me that package from David's [mail order dessert company]. She came to teach the fourth grade there. Angelica Bullock 20:03 How long were you at Mount Carmel? Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:05 Three years. Angelica Bullock 20:13 I'm looking at this timeline ... Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:16 We are up to 1960. Angelica Bullock 20:18 Okay! Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:20 '61 to '64. That's when I was at Mt. Carmel. Angelica Bullock 20:29 Then where did you go after Mt. Carmel? Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:31 '64 to '69, Mount Saint Vincent. We had juniorate. Angelica Bullock 20:43 Can you describe what that is? Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:46 It's a formation program, after the novitiate. - 12 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 20:53 And what was your... Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:54 The Sisters were going; I was in charge; I was the boss. I was the Superior. And they were studying at the time too, studying in college. So, it was further introduction to religious life for them and going, learning about the missions and visiting different places where the Sisters worked. The roaring '60s, and all the changes were taking place in the Church and in religious life, like losing the habit, changing the habit, and wearing regular clothes and all of that. Angelica Bullock 21:45 And how did you feel about all the changes that were happening? Sr. Ellen Quirke 21:49 Oh, I just loved them. I was ready for them. And I learned a lot from the young people. They taught me a lot. They didn't know they were teaching me, but they were. Angelica Bullock 22:03 Do you remember when you changed from the habit? What year or so? Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:14 1969. My mother was so disappointed when she saw me with gray hair. Because she had had the same problem. She didn't see the gray hair before because we had the hats on. Angelica Bullock 22:31 Oh, I see. So then, how old were you about in 1969? Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:38 You figure it out. Angelica Bullock 22:39 Okay! Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:42 Forty-three. Angelica Bullock 22:49 You had gray hair at forty-three? Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:52 Oh, yes. I had it earlier than that. Angelica Bullock 22:55 Did your mom have gray hair too at a young age? - 13 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:57 Yes, she was young. She used peroxide one day and my father nearly killed her when he came home for it. It was awful when she used peroxide; they didn't have the dyes they have today. Angelica Bullock 23:11 There's just one point where there's no people that are wearing a habit. And then they’re wearing a modified veil and then... Sr. Ellen Quirke 23:23 That was while I was in the juniorate they started doing that. The postulants, the novices, the young sisters were doing the modified veil. Angelica Bullock 23:34 Why the change from the habit to the modified veil was that... Sr. Ellen Quirke 23:41 It was just doing it gradually. It was just gradual. Some Communities did; one Community that I know of, she went from the habit to the dress, immediately. They didn't do in-between. We did a lot of the inbetween. We started with the shoes and the stockings, and then the length of the skirt, the habit, the hat changed to the veil. It took long; they should have done it all at once and then it would have been over with. Angelica Bullock 24:16 And who decided these changes and habit… Sr. Ellen Quirke 24:21 From the habit? Well, that was a little part of the movement that was going on in the church about all the changes. And when they started talking about all different kinds of changes that were going on. They talked about religious life, that it wasn't necessary to be wearing these kinds of clothes that made yourself so different from everybody else. Angelica Bullock 24:44 And besides habits, do you remember the other changes that were happening during that time in the Church? Sr. Ellen Quirke 24:58 Really, a lot was changed. A habit was only a symbol of all the changes that were going on. I mean, it could even start with an attitude toward God and learning more about theology and the meaning of this, and that caused the changes. Angelica Bullock 25:20 This was also a time when a lot of people weren't leaving, maybe that was a little bit later. - 14 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 25:29 No, they were leaving at that time. Angelica Bullock 25:31 Okay, they were leaving. How did you feel about that? Sr. Ellen Quirke 25:37 It was very difficult, because your friends, some of your friends were leaving. And it was a testing time for your own vocation. Angelica Bullock 25:50 Were there any points during that time when you began or at any point really, when you began to question if you wanted to be in Sister or did that never happen? Sr. Ellen Quirke 26:06 I'm sure it went on. You would be a stone if you didn't think of anything and wonder sometime what was going on. Yes. Angelica Bullock 26:22 Were there ever feelings of contention with people leaving or did you feel happy for them? Sr. Ellen Quirke 26:28 Oh, it was very difficult when they left. It's very difficult to see people leaving. And it was shocking when it first started. It was very shocking because that never happened. One person would leave in five years. So, do you want to go on with the rest of my life? Angelica Bullock 26:58 Yes. Sorry, I had you staying in '69 for a long time. Okay. And where did you go... Sr. Ellen Quirke 27:06 Well that was an important part of my life, very important. Angelica Bullock 27:11 And where were you after Mount Saint Vincent? Sr. Ellen Quirke 27:15 In '69 I went to the Foundling and worked for Foundling [The New York Foundling]. I went into social work after Foundling. I went to Fordham to study social work and worked at Jacoby Hospital for a year in the rehab department. Angelica Bullock 27:45 What made you switch from going to ... - 15 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 27:48 Well, I had been dealing with older women and I wasn't qualified for grammar school, elementary school teaching and I didn't want to go back to teaching elementary school. So, I went into social work, studied at Fordham, social work. Angelica Bullock 28:10 And did you like your time at Fordham? Oh, yes, yes. Sr. Ellen Quirke 28:23 I graduated in '72 and then I went to work at St. Joseph's Hospital in Yonkers in the mental health clinic. Angelica Bullock 28:34 How long were you at St. Joseph's? Sr. Ellen Quirke 28:36 I was there for four years doing counseling and group work. And then in '76 I went to St Vincent's Hospital, worked with the homebound elderly. Angelica Bullock 29:03 And this was the St. Vincent's in Manhattan? Sr. Ellen Quirke 29:06 Yes, Manhattan. Community Medicine. We had this program for the homebound elderly where we went to visit people in their own apartments, with a doctor and a nurse. Angelica Bullock 29:22 Can you talk a little bit more about that? I've seen in the archives, the Community Medicine part. That's with Dr. Brickner? Sr. Ellen Quirke 29:30 Yes. I worked with him and Sr. Teresita [Duque], she was the nurse. Dr. Brickner wasn't the only doctor; we had all the resident doctors would go out from the Battery up to 34th street, from the River to 5th Avenue. Got to know the whole neighborhood, elevator apartments and walk-up apartment. Apartments where they had bathtubs in the kitchen; they were that old. Angelica Bullock 29:38 How was that experience, being a part of Community Medicine and actually going out into the community instead of them coming to you? Sr. Ellen Quirke 30:11 I loved it; I loved it. A lot of walking and meeting a lot of different people, different people, different kinds of people. - 16 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 30:19 What did a normal day for you look like at St. Vincent's? Sr. Ellen Quirke 30:24 Oh, you'd have meetings in the morning, find out who you were going to go out to see. Who you were visiting and who you thought needed to have you go because you needed to provide services for the older people. Find out about their rent or if somebody was bothering them. The family was involved. They needed help, assistance. They needed to get money from the bank. They needed the groceries. Angelica Bullock 30:27 Were most of the homebound elderly that you were visiting. Did they live by themselves? Sr. Ellen Quirke 30:59 Some of them lived by themselves. Most of them live by themselves. And they didn't want to go to a nursing home, tried to keep them out of the nursing home so they could stay in their own homes. Angelica Bullock 31:10 Were nursing homes popular back then? Sr. Ellen Quirke 31:12 No, they still aren't popular. And here I am. When Dr. Brickner found out I was coming here, uhh! Angelica Bullock 31:21 Was he surprised that you were coming here? And what was life like for you working at that hospice program? Sr. Ellen Quirke 31:22 I didn't want it; when I was in the other place. He has since died. But of course, when I was, it was a big joke keeping me out of a nursing home. And then the other department I worked in at St. Vincent's, after I finished in '92, I went to work at the hospice program we had at St. Vincent's. The Supportive Care Program, we called it for people with AIDS. It was hard. It was difficult because you had so many young people dying, and then the nurses were taking care of them needed a lot of support. And the families, I had families, groups for survivors for their relatives and those who had died. After that, I went to work at the senior center four years, St. Malachi's Church Senior Center. Angelica Bullock 32:28 And where was this that was on 47th Street, Sr. Ellen Quirke 32:33 The Actor's Chapel, they called it. Angelica Bullock 32:36 And what did you do there? - 17 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 32:37 Social work. The people that came there, they needed things, to be connected to agencies or needed help with their families or whatever. Angelica Bullock 32:51 So, it seems like you had two different careers. Sr. Ellen Quirke 32:55 Yes, three different careers really, because that formation work, that was different. Angelica Bullock 33:01 Do you think that the three different careers were all at different points of your life? So that's why it made sense. Sr. Ellen Quirke 33:08 No, no, no, I didn't think of that. Well, the experience of the first led me to the second and led me to the third. - 18 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Quirke, Sister Ellen Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Location The location of the interview The New Jewish Home, Kittay Senior Apartments Bronx, New York Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Quirke, Sister Ellen, SC Oral History Description An account of the resource Sr. Ellen Quirke discusses her journey as a Sister of Charity of New York encompassing two distinct ministries in teaching and social work. Sr. Ellen describes the changing needs of bilingual students in New York City during the 1960s-1970s and her venture into geriatric health care in the pioneering Department of Community Medicine at St. Vincent's Hospital in Greenwich Village. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 15 October 2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon, Transcriber, Editor Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York Subject The topic of the resource Sister Ellen Quirke, SC Sisters of Charity of New York