11 10 108 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f5b4074a66a4baf116981d2746774065.jpg 69cf7465c097cce7242e640553e6bbed https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/167f3d14cf8723c590df43c1d34b1e3e.mp3 663d459c2ad8160dd444be143cff0864 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/54feb333b47dc9ec5a3fc1c908cdfbb4.pdf 1bba31cae3e2d4f66eb9a81f8ea8d3a3 PDF Text Text TAPE #110 SISTER MARY EMMA McKINLEY INTERVIEWED BY: Sister Sally Duffy on August 19, 1978 Born March 28, 1893 in Cleveland, Ohio I had a very happy home-life. My dear mother and father created a home of happiness. We were nine children, I am the second youngest. When I spoke of entering the Community, my father was much disturbed. He wanted me to stay with them, but gradually, he changed his mind and gave his consent. He wasn’t happy to have me enter. I had a sister who had entered nine years ahead of me. When I entered I was two weeks short of 19 years old. WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO ENTER RELIGIOUS LIFE? I had had a craving to be a Sister for several years. I did have a little struggle to know where to go. Our Pastor wanted me to go to the Saint Joseph Sisters. He said: “You can lead as great a holy life here in Cleveland as you can in Cincinnati.” But, that didn’t satisfy me. So, I kept to my decision, and, thank God, I entered the Sisters of Charity. I entered on March 15, 1912. WHAT HAD BEEN YOUR CONTACT WITH THE CHARITIES? I had had the Sisters of Charity up to the sixth grade, then we moved to another parish and I had the Sisters of St. Joseph, so perhaps that was the cause for the little conflict. �WAS THERE ANYTHING SPECIFICALLY THAT DREW YOU TO THE SISTERS OF CHARITY? All I can say is the goodness and mercy of God that He directed me here. I have thanked Him many times for my religious vocation and especially to the Sisters of Charity. WAS THERE ANYONE IN PARTICULAR WHO INFLUENCED YOUR DECISION? No, I can’t say so. WHO WAS YOUR NOVICE MISTRESS? Sister Mary Teresa Troy was our Novice Mistress, and Sister Hyacinth Sullivan gave us our spiritual instructions. WHAT WAS YOUR NOVITIATE LIKE? It was what one would expect in religious life. It was not too easy, and yet, I loved every minute of it. We had regular instructions, prayers, domestic duties, many friends among the Novices and Postulants, a very kind Mistress. So, my Novitiate was very happy. YOU WERE NOVICE MISTRESS YOURSELF FOR MANY YEARS, IS THAT CORRECT? Yes, I was Novice Mistress from 1927 to 1933 then for one year I was with the Postulants only. �WAS THERE MUCH DIFFERENCE FROM YOUR OWN NOVITIATE AND YOUR POSTULANCY? No, I often say to my former Novices now, “How hard it must have been for you, but I went through the same thing and I could only give you what I, myself, had.” WAS THERE A CERTAIN STRUCTURE IN YOUR NOVITIATE? Very definitely. WHAT WAS THAT STRUCTURE LIKE? We were made acquainted with the Constitutions and our Praiseworthy Customs both of which are very beautiful. We had them read once a month so that we really got to know them. WHAT WAS THE SPIRIT LIKE AT THE TIME OF YOUR NOVITIATE? I think there was a deep spirit of prayer. We got along beautifully together, and yet, I don’t remember ever having any close, dear friends, but I still love my Novitiate friends. There are seven of them still living. �HOW MANY PEOPLE ENTERED THE COMMUNITY WITH YOU? Sister Agatha Eppley and I were the only two to enter on the same day. In the years gone by, girls entered on the day of their choice. We had planned to come on the feast of St. Joseph because I had a special devotion to St. Joseph, but my sister, Sister Agnes Joseph, was a school teacher and she couldn’t very well leave her classroom in the middle of the week to come down to Cincinnati with me. So, we entered the Friday before St. Joseph’s day, on the 15th of March. HAS THE SPIRIT OF THE COMMUNITY CHANGED OVER THE YEARS FOR YOU? No. For me, it has not, and I think for most of the older Sisters it has not... and even the middle aged Sisters. I think that the very young members have not had sufficient training in the Spirit to really know and love what it is. HOW MIGHT YOU SUGGEST THAT THE YOUNGER SISTERS BE TRAINED IN ORDER TO SHARE IN THE SAME SPIRIT THAT YOU SHARE? First of all, pray to the Holy Spirit asking Him to direct their spirit and give them the spirit of a true religious. I think we have always had a very beautiful family spirit in our Community. �ARE YOU FEARFUL THAT WE MAY LOSE THIS SPIRIT? I say, I don’t worry about the Community because I feel confident that the Sacred Heart is going to take care of our Community. Our Sisters have always been very devoted to the Sacred Heart, the Blessed Mother, and St. Joseph. And, yet, I am deeply concerned because I do feel that a much more worldly spirit has crept in. I can’t say that I blame anyone. I think that it is the spirit of the world creeping into religious life. HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE COMMUNITY? I finished my 66th year last month. AS YOU LOOK BACK ON THOSE 66 YEARS AS A SISTER OF CHARITY, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THEM? WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN LIKE FOR YOU? They have been a fulfillment of my hopes. I have been very happy, very happy. DID YOU HAVE DIFFICULT TIMES, OR PAINFUL TIMES? Well, we all have our daily little worries about our duties and whether we are doing right or wrong. But, for the most part, I have had no real worries in the Community. �WHAT HAS IT MEANT FOR YOU TO BE A RELIGIOUS WOMAN FOR 66 YEARS? It has much meaning. I look back over the years and think only how wonderfully merciful God has been to me. I feel that my life has been one continued chain of blessings both spiritual and temporal. I especially look over those years as mirrors of total commitment and complete satisfaction. The only regret I have is that I am not far better than I am today, that I have not made better use of all the wonderful spiritual and temporal lessons God has bestowed upon me. WHAT IS YOUR IDEA OF COMMUNITY...WHAT DOES COMMUNITY MEAN TO YOU? I think that Community should be first of all dedication to the cause of God, it should be lived in common with the Sisters in a spirit of love and helpfulness. Our convents should be, and I hope are, homes of peace and happiness. I am very sorry to hear now of so many Sister living outside of the convents, in apartments, living privately. I don’t think that is community life. Community means working together. All of this must certainly have an effect on the prayer life of the Sisters. We need one another. �SO I HEAR YOU SAYING THAT COMMUNITY IS VERY MUCH THE PRAYER PART AND SUPPORT OF EACH OTHER. Not only in the prayer life, yes. Our prayer life must come first, but also, in our life as Sisters, real Sisters living together, loving one another, helping one another wherever we can. I am so often just overwhelmed with the kindness I see most of our Sisters showing to other Sisters, especially those who need help. HAS THE PRAYER LIFE OF THE SISTER OF CHARITY CHANGED DURING THE 66 YEARS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE COMMUNITY? Well, that is a lot of personal questions and I can’t answer except for myself. I would say, for myself, no, it has not changed. In fact, if anything, it has increased and beautified. My community life means more to me today than ever. SAINT VINCENT HAD THE IDEA THAT FOR A SISTER OF CHARITY THE STREETS ARE HER CLOISTER. HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THIS IDEA? We do not have a cloister in the strict of the word, but by saying that the streets is our cloister means that even though we are mingling with the world at all times, meeting with people of all stations, we must be ready to help everybody and at the same time, live the life of a cloister in our own lives. This is the real spirit of recollection. I must admit that it is not easy to do this. It takes much practice, much hard work, much prayer, and a closeness to God. �KNOWING THE CHANGES SINCE VATICAN II AND ALL THE CHANGES IN THE COMMUNITY SINCE VATICAN II, DO YOU FEEL THAT THESE CHANGES HAVE MOVED US CLOSER TO THE PEOPLE, OR HAVE THEY MOVED US AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE? Well, I think taking off the religious habit has removed us from the people. I know, many Sisters say they can reach the people better in worldly clothes. But, I cannot agree with them. I have heard so many, many times, oh so many times, “Sister, it is so good to see you in a habit.” So, I really feel that the habit has a big part to play in our life as witnesses to the world. Then, too, our work among the sick, the poor, the lowly, little children, and people of all ranks, must draw others closer to God. I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN NOVICE DIRECTOR AND ALSO POSTULANT DIRECTOR, WHAT OTHER APOSTOLIC MINISTRIES WERE YOU INVOLVED IN? Well, for twenty of those years, I was local Superior in several schools; I taught in the elementary grades, most of the time I taught the 8th grade. SO, MOST OF YOUR COMMUNITY LIFE WAS SPENT TEACHING? Yes. �WHERE WERE SOME OF THE PLACES THAT YOU WERE ON MISSION? Do you want to know all of them? SURE! St. Joseph’s, Dayton for 9 years; then, I went to St. Leo’s, Detroit, for 3 years; than down to Memphis, Tennessee in 1925; in 1927 I returned to the Motherhouse to take charge of the Novitiate and in 1933, the Postulate. In 1934 I was at St. Dominic’s School, it was a brand new school, just opened. There I had to teach 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. From there I went to Holy Angels, Sidney and to St. Luke’s, Detroit. In 1943, I was back in Dayton, but this time, at Sacred Heart School. Then I was one year at St. Elizabeth, Norwood. In 1950, I went to St. Joseph’s, Springfield, from there to Saint Savior, Rossmoyne for 6 years. Then I went to Annunciation School in Clifton for another 6 years. In 1966, I returned to the Motherhouse. I became a resident at Mother Margaret Hall in October of 1975, and I have been there ever since. Mother Margaret Hall is all that anyone could wish for in the way of a nursing home. Along with hospital care, we have real family life. There are over 200 hundred Sisters in Mother Margaret Hall at the present time. �WHEN YOU ARE OUT ON YOUR MISSION EXPERIENCES, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU WERE A TEACHER MOST OF THE TIME. WERE YOU INVOLVED IN ANY OTHER TYPES OF WORK DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE TEACHING? Yes, I had charge of the servers, I guess that’s about all. WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR MOST MEMORABLE EVENT AS A SISTER OF CHARITY, WHAT STANDS OUT THE MOST IN YOUR MEMORY OF ALL YOUR YEARS OF BEING A SISTER OF CHARITY? One thing is the day we had permission to make perpetual vows. We made these in December of 1927. Up to that time, we had made vows for one year and renewed them each year. Mother Irenea requested Rome that we might make perpetual vows and all those Sisters who were in the Community long enough made perpetual vows. From that time on, it has been the custom for Sisters to make perpetual vows after their years of temporary profession which was usually from 5 to 6 years. WHO WERE SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IMPORTANT IN YOUR LIFE DURING YOUR 66 YEARS, AND HOW WERE THEY IMPORTANT TO YOU? A great many people...my Superiors, my own friends, the pupils among those whom I taught... I guess that’s about it. �WHAT WAS IT THAT THEY DID TO MAKE THEM IMPORTANT TO YOU? Mostly their lives, they were persons of integrity, they had a love for the Community, and for God, and in general were really friends, helpful friends. A FEW MINUTES AGO, YOU READ TO ME A LIST OF ALL THE MISSIONS THAT YOU SERVED ON... THEY WERE QUITE NUMEROUS. WHICH WAS YOUR FAVORITE MISSION? I really can’t say. I liked every mission I was on. Some were easier than others but that didn’t matter. There was a spirit in the house and the joy of my vocation that made them all more or less the same. WERE YOU ON ANY MISSIONS WHERE THE SISTERS OF CHARITY ARE NO LONGER SERVING? Sacred Heart, Dayton is no longer on our list; St. Joseph, Springfield has only one Sister; St. Luke’s, Detroit no Sisters. DO YOU HAVE ANY PARTICULAR COMMUNITY STORY THAT YOU COULD SHARE WITH US? I think I’ve told you enough. �DID YOU SAVE ANY OF YOUR NOVITIATE NOTES? I don’t think I have them in writing, but I know that I have them in my heart because they were made so vivid to us that they made a deep impression. I thank God, along with my comrades, I think that we have kept them in our hearts all these years. YOU KNOW THAT I’M A NOVICE RIGHT NOW. WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST TO ME, THINGS THAT WOULD REALLY HELP ME, OR BENEFIT ME IN MY RELIGIOUS LIFE? WHAT KIND OF ADVICE COULD YOU GIVE TO ME? Well, that’s a big order. First of all, be serious about your vocation, realizing that after the gift of Faith, it is the greatest gift that God has given you. Be faithful to your prayers, your prayer life, the sacraments. What I would like to say is live a real community life, but I realize that on some conditions today, that is very hard. I think that a lot of people who are coming to religious life today are just as sincere, just as fervent as Sisters ever were. I think that they want the spirit of sacrifice, and I’m afraid that they are not getting it. The world has entered into the Community far too much. There is very little restraint on a young Sister of the present day. We have to have structure, we need Superiors to guide us, we need our companions, good faithful, holy souls to help us along the way. But it is all worth the trials, it is well worth all the difficulties you may encounter, and I only hope that our young people today will enter religious life with a strong determination to leave the world, and devote themselves to �Christ and His work. We must expect sacrifice. Christ has given us the best example. Is there anything He did not sacrifice for all of us? Be strong-hearted, determined to follow the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and beg Him every day to draw you closer to His sacred heart and to His blessed mother. WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN TO PULL THE COMMUNITY AWAY FROM THIS SPIRIT OF WORLDLINESS THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT? I would like to see the new members of the Community spend their first days, months, and even a couple of years, at the Motherhouse. The Motherhouse of Mount Saint Joseph is truly our house of prayer. It is the home of the spirit of the Sisters of Charity and we all need that as a foundation before we are able to go out on our own. Strike your roots deep in religion. Don’t be looking out for anything that is easy. If we give ourselves to God, He will put us where we are needed, He will give us what we need to do the work He wants us to do, and surely we will be happy. �WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD DURING THOSE 66 YEARS? My relationship with God has been that of a child for my heavenly Father, trusting in the Sacred Heart and His Blessed Mother, and devotion to the Holy Spirit. Also, we are to go back to following the spirit of Mother Seton. We hear so much about the charism of Mother Seton. One of her charisms was devotion to the Blessed Sacrament. Formerly, it was a rule for all Sisters to spend one half hour adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, daily. Some have drifted away from this. We need Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, please go back to the habit of spending this time with Him. I know that if you were to read the Constitutions and Praiseworthy Customs as we knew them, as we still know them, you might think some were absurd, perhaps some little requirements were unnecessary. But for the most part every one played its own part in forming our character and educating us in the life of a religious and strengthening us against the temptations and the desires of the world. END OF TAPED INTERVIEW � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed McKinley, Sister Mary Emma, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Duffy, Sister Sally, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 37 Minutes 39 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Mary Emma McKinley, SC Interviewed by Sister Sally Duffy, SC August 19, 1978 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Mary Emma McKinley by Sister Sally Duffy. The interview was conducted soon after Sister Sally entered the Community in 1977 and her subject, Sister Mary Emma, had previously served as a Mistress of Novices from 1927 to 1934. The discussion centers on the stark changes to formation and religious life in the United States during the twentieth century. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McKinley, Sister Mary Emma, SC; Duffy, Sister Sally, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/19/1978 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Mary Emma McKinley, SC Interviewed by Sister Sally Duffy, SC August 19, 1978 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1912-1978 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Religious Formation Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/87d8b833332e6c4a83e9788968a6e77a.jpg 1d8977aa3b176b7e67655d702c6e8d97 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/d140e3b4f084702af30b4e9d2ffaa206.mp3 6a23fe3caa7c3f0b666594bb2cc5110b https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/0fe2253bfe2fe26e1bf1faf69c572d16.pdf da9b2fcbba3a7e9f6fc4a64cf94cc82d PDF Text Text SISTER MARY HELEN MCKENNA – ORAL HISTORY [Bracketed words, not names, are additions by the Sister upon review.] SVMF: Today is November 12, 2018, and I am here in Sister Mary Helen McKenna's room to begin her oral history, and I, Sister Victoria Marie Forde, would like her to start answering the questions [on our sheet], and the first question is: We have a lot of material, Sister Mary Helen, in the Archives, but is there material you would like us to add to your folder about your life? So if you have something. . . SMHM: Sure, I'd love to have some more because my life is long, and there are a lot of little quips and quirks and fun and jokes that I have that I probably could tell about, things that happened in the Community when I was there. SVMF: All right, do you want to begin? SMHM: Well, I think maybe I should begin with my wonderful parents. Both of which came from Ireland and met over here, and then they had a nice little bouncy baby girl in 1920. And I was that little girl. And life at that time was very, very deep in Depression. And so we had the beginning of it anyway. So there were things that we had to do in food and clothing, all kinds of things to help us get through that Depression, and I think with a little baby girl, pretty active, that was a problem for them. And their background enabled them, however, to live through anything. They were strong, strong Irish. And I'm finished with the Depression. SVMF: It sounds as if you had a hard time during the Depression , but your family, your parents, were so good about it that they got you through. So where did you go to school, Mary Helen, and meet the Sisters of Charity? SMHM: Well, I went St. Mary's School, Jackson, Michigan, and I had the most wonderful sisters: Sister Rose [McConville] in the first grade; Sister, oh gosh, she became a great English teacher. . . . SVMF: Is there someone who really influenced you to become a Sister of Charity? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 1 �SMHM: Well, as I went through the grades, we went to high school, and Sister Loyola [Ruede] was another member of my class, and we loved Sister [Helen] Regina [Kuss]. She was a commercial teacher, and in those days it was good to have shorthand and some of these other things, typing and all that as a background for a job, And we really loved Sister Regina. SVMF: And so after you graduated, though, did you enter right away? SMHM: Well, yes we did because of her influence I entered that August after I had graduated in June. So I think lots of people did that. But I was the last one in the band of the August people, September. And I entered September 10, a couple of days late because of my dad wanting to drive and take me down. But when I was at the supper table after I had left my parents, it was close to supper, and Sister Camilla [Smith] was at the head of the table, and they put me at the foot. And of course they tried to make it nice for me. It was kind of hard to leave your parents and your brother and so. . . SVMF: So you have a brother? SMHM: I have a brother, Jack McKenna. And so anyway, they had all kinds of things trying to get me to talk and say something. Well, finally I got my tears together, and I said, "Well, one thing I love to do is to play tennis." Now as I said that, the bell had rung a few minutes, few seconds before, and so all through the whole Community at supper they heard: "I love to play tennis." SVMF: Because the bell was for silence and to do the dishes! SMHM: That's right. SVMF: So they all knew you loved to play tennis. SMHM: And so really that was my first night then, and of course everything was strange. We lived in the attic. SVMF: The 5th floor SMHM: 5th floor ©Sisters of Charity Archives 2 �SVMF: Yes SMHM: And so there wasn't room for me with my band, so they put me with Sister Virginia Ann [Temple] and that nice tall Sister. Gee, I kind of forget her name, but anyway she was one of the ones from along the line of Alma, all these farm countries [S. Mary Edmund Bensman], and so she was my angel. SVMF: You were just in a dorm with her by yourself? SMHM: Yes, and Virginia Ann. SVMF: And Virginia Ann. SMHM: I promoted up before I even got here as a band, and so we had 18 in our band. SVMF: So was Loyola in your band? SMHM: She came in February. It was of course my band. SVMF: Sure. You were just there for the two years like most of us? Postulant and novice, and then what happened to you? Did you go to school? SMHM: I went to the Athenaeum. I was missioned to the Athenaeum, and it was a wonderful experience. We went, five of us, the big bus of the Mount, and we also went in a beautiful car sometimes. And we had the most wonderful experience with Sister . . . . SVMF: At the Athenaeum some Sister? SMHM: At the Athenaeum SVMF: Was it a Sister of Charity? SMHM: Henrietta [Sister of Mercy] was one, and she was a great friend of the Sister I'm having trouble with the name. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 3 �SVMF: We might be able to find it later and put it in. So you went to the Athenaeum for two years maybe? SMHM: Yes. SVMF: And then what happened? SMHM: I was missioned to St. Mary's, Hyde Park, and this was how I went to my mission. Sister Grace Miriam [McCarthy] came from St. Mary's, Hyde Park, by bus, picked me up with my two little satchels, and we walked back to the bus, and we transferred someplace in Cincinnati, and then we went to St. Mary's, Hyde Park. There were 35 sisters there. SVMF: Because there was a grade school and a high school. SMHM: That's right. SVMF: And what grade were you teaching? SMHM: I was teaching, I began with grade 4, and I had geniuses in my class. SVMF: Oh, so you loved teaching? SMHM: Oh my, they were jumping out of their seats, and of course being from the Athenaeum I caught on years later. I had so many visitors, they would just come, pop in. SVMF: They were observers, really. SMHM: And I was being observed all this time. Well, then two years I was in fourth grade. And then someone moved, and I went to the sixth grade. Well, didn't I have the same jumping jacks again! And oh, but it was always good. We could take the liner, the music liner and run it down the chalkboard, and I'm using modern language now. We used to call it a blackboard. But anyway, we ran it down, and they could go up and put their poems that that they had made on the lines of that, and then the kids could sing it. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 4 �SVMF: Oh my, that's marvelous. SMHM: I had some tremendous people. SVMF: You did, you did. SMHM: One of them was the head of the liturgy here in Cincinnati. SVMF: Oh, my. SMHM: Giles Pater, P-A-T-E-R. And also, I had the Marist in Dayton, Brockmeyer, and honestly they were terrific. That Brockmeyer memorized in the fourth grade. He said, "Sister, I know some of the Inferno. SVMF: All right, Sister Mary Helen, we're going to straighten this up a little bit. The child who memorized the poem was Brockmeyer, and he memorized Dante's Inferno, part of it. SMHM: And he was so good that I sent him over to the high school to Sister Daniel Miriam's class, and she, oh my gosh, the kids couldn't get over it, and he was a skinny little guy and just darling, and I thought, but later he became the head of the Marists in Dayton. SVMF: From Saint Mary's, Hyde Park, you went to Saint Leo's. SMHM: Yes, Detroit. SVMF: And from Saint Leo's, Detroit, then you went to Royal Oak, the high school. SMHM: That's right. SVMF: Do you want to tell us anything about that? SMHM: I want to tell you one funny thing. There was one Sister and you can find the name probably, and she was a French teacher. And oh, she talked just like this, you know, and the French thing. And they sent me up, when I went there, ©Sisters of Charity Archives 5 �they sent me up with her to be alone in the house there, that Father Coughlin had appointed for the Sisters' convent. SVMF: The two of you were alone in the convent? SMHM: The two of us, and one day she came, she was on the second floor and I was on the first floor, and she came to me, "Oh, Sister, there's some man in my room." I said, "Oh, my gosh, Constantia, that's her name, I'll get this window pole." And so we went up, quietly up her stairs, and she said, "Oh, my heart, my heart," she said, and you could hear it, and it sounded like he was snoring. And I thought, well, . . . SMHM: My gosh, this is something. So we got to the top, and guess what it was? SVMF: What? SMHM: Her fan! Her fan was going back and forth, back and forth, but oh, my gosh, all I could think all this time was "Here I just got here, I'm in high school, and I've got this French teacher, and here she is telling me, 'There's a man in the room.'" And I didn't know where the phone was, I didn't know anything, and anyway we laughed about it later. SVMF: But from there you went to Queen of Martyrs then, and now you're already a principal. SMHM: Yea, a pretty young one. SVMF: A very young one. SMHM: Anyway, I went from Saint Mary's, I was there two years, they were pushing it, so I would have had some acquaintance with Father Coughlin. I didn't have an acquaintance with him, but at least he knew that I was teaching there and all of that. SVMF: So then they made you a principal. Did you have a background for that? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 6 �SMHM: I had to study while I was there. We had to buy books. We had to do everything. And Father Hebert was the pastor, and he was very particular, and I admired him a lot. He wanted the very best. Now Birmingham at that time was a very wealthy area. It was beyond Royal Oak, so there were a lot of wealthy people there. And he had for each classroom a wood carving of the Blessed Mother, as we have or used to have in our halls. It was 24 inches high, I would imagine. And every teacher could pick out whichever title of the Blessed Mother she wanted. And the school was beautiful. Really, everything he did he was fastidious. SVMF: Was this a brand new school? SMHM: Oh, brand new, nobody was ever there. SVMF: Oh, Queen of Martyrs was brand new. SMHM: I was the first person there, and we had several, four Sisters, Mary Bridget [Lydon} was one. Ruth Bockenstette [Bernard Mary] was another, and the third one was Mary Jerome Cremering. And then also to keep me in tow we had Mary Aiden, an older Sister, quite old, had been a principal all her life, I think. Anyway, I think she was supposed to be the guardian angel of all of us. SVMF: Did she teach there? SMHM: No, she was a house Sister. She was too old, really. SVMF: So you're there for two years, is that right? No, '54 to '59 you're there. SMHM: I was there five years. SVMF: Five years, that's right. Then you're sent to St. Albert the Great. SMHM: That's right, but at Albert the Great I was just there, I was a teacher there. SVMF: But you were in junior high? SMHM: I was in junior high teaching, yes. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 7 �SVMF: How did you feel about that, going from principal to junior high? SMHM: Well, I think that was the way we did it in those days. You were a principal six years less or more, and then you went back into teaching. SVMF: I see, yes. SMHM: I remember that marvelous, marvelous idea. No one got a big head at all. SVMF: So you're at St. Albert's and you're teaching there for a while and just a couple of years there, right? SMHM: I think I was there one or two years. SVMF: '59 to' 61, so just two years, and then they're sending you to Saint Leo's, Detroit, and here it says," server, community, diocesan, elementary." What does that all mean at Saint Leo's? SMHM: I was a supervisor. SVMF: Oh, a supervisor, that's what you were.. SMHM: I left Alberts, and they sent me to be a diocesan supervisor in Detroit. And Father Haken, Monsignor Haken was the head of it, and I was joined by Sisters from the IHM. And we all met frequently, I think every two weeks , and we had to give reports of what we did and what we saw and what suggestions we had, and so I really enjoyed that because I learned so much, and those IHMs are really school people. SVMF: Are they? SMHM: They really are, the Detroit group, anyway. SVMF: And you're living at St. Leo's, downtown. SMHM: I live at St. Leo's. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 8 �SVMF: Among the poor. SMHM: We didn't have cars in those days. SVMF: No. SMHM: So we went every place, if I had a meeting downtown with the group I went by bus. I met every single Sister of Charity from all the diocese. Now at that time the Detroit diocese was huge. Then they finally made a Lansing diocese. `But that came after my day. SVMF: So when you were there you had this huge diocese that you had to supervise? SMHM: I had to supervise. SVMF: This was the elementary? SMHM: All elementary, yes. SVMF: Oh, my heavens, what a job! SMHM: Well, I mean elementary schools. I don't mean all elementary. But anyway, so that was a tremendous experience, and one time they had a panel, and they picked the teachers for it on the TV. We were on TV. I was one of them, and we each had to say what we were doing and what we thought about education. SVMF: Good heavens! SMHM: And it was wonderful because TV. wasn't out very long. And so we all felt kind of good about that. And all the Sisters, now at this time it was the Sisters at the Shrine. I don't know how this happened. SVMF: Well, you're at St. Leo's, aren't you here? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 9 �SMHM: I went out of St. Leo's; well I guess I was there supervising some of the things. SVMF: And then you went to St. Charles, Kettering, as principal. SMHM: But I want to tell you that the Sisters at that Shrine were so humble. I think I want to go back to that. They were so humble, so beautiful, and we had Mother Coughlin at that time. And she lived in the garage behind the Sisters' convent. And we had to take turns, we didn't have to, we volunteered to take turns to sit with Mother Coughlin. Father Coughlin loved his mother so much that he could not put her in a nursing home. So he built that garage, and some of the Sisters were up above, and Eugene [Fox] was one of them, and oh, the name is almost on my lips. But anyway there were four bedrooms up above this garage, and the one who sat with Mother Coughlin, and she wouldn't go to bed until about 12:00 at night. She loved wrestling. SVMF: Oh, my. SMHM: Oh my gosh, and here I was a poor little me, I'm back at Royal Oak, and poor little me trying to correct my papers and everything, and if she saw out of the corner of her eye that you were correcting papers, oh, she'd hit them, and she'd want you to watch that thing with her. SVMF: Oh, my. SMHM: And then we'd push the piano, she had a baby grand. Every night we'd push it over to the front door, and every night we'd put her to bed, and then sometimes she'd wake up, and she'd say, "William Henry, she did this, that William Henry." And that was Henry Miriam. SVMF: Oh, my. SMHM: But she didn't like her. So Henry Miriam got out of that job. SVMF: Was the piano at the door so that no one would come in? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 10 �SMHM: That's right, see, and in our room, we had a room not quite next to hers at all, but down. And when she would get into a tantrum like that, she would come to your door. Well, see, we had another door, and we would ring a bell, and someone from upstairs would come down and help us. SVMF: Oh, my, oh, what an experience, my heavens. SMHM: It was because she was not all herself. SVMF: Sure, so shall we go on to St. Charles, Kettering? You're a principal now. SMHM: St. Charles, Kettering is after something or other. SVMF: After you were the diocesan supervisor. SMHM: Oh, that's right, I went there. SVMF: Yes, but now you're a principal. SMHM: And so we bought books and we did everything. These were very, very intelligent people and very rich. And they were very nice and polite and everything. SVMF: You're the principal there. SMHM: Yes. SVMF: At St. Charles, the elementary. SMHM: I opened St. Charles. SVMF: Oh, you opened it, oh my heavens. SMHM: Yes, I opened St. Charles, and I opened Birmingham. I also bought books and things when I was a supervisor for St. Mary's in Port Huron. You had to do all those little things. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 11 �SVMF: We'll put that all in. You'll hear it, so you'll see. After St. Charles then you go to St. Luke's, Detroit. SMHM: Yes, that was my respite, see. You didn't stay as a principal, you had six years. SVMF: Six years, now this is two years at St. Luke's, now? SMHM: Yes, I taught at St. Luke's, Detroit for a couple of years. And there was a very precocious principal. She had done work downtown in reading. SVMF: In Detroit? SMHM: Yes, this is St. Luke's, Detroit, but I think she might have been in Cincinnati. SVMF: Oh, all right. SMHM: She was a famous reading expert. SVMF: What I'll do is I'll go to the Archives and find out who was the reading expert in Cincinnati at that time, and I think we can fill in these times. SMHM: And I think for a while Bobbie was with her. SVMF: Bobbie Good. SMHM: Bobbie Good. SVMF: Maybe she could help us too. SMHM: I don't think they got along. I think that's what happened. So, we'd better leave it. SVMF: The next is Elizabeth Seton, South Holland, High School Religion. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 12 �SMHM: Yes, I went to the University of Detroit, and I was finishing there, and I sat next to this wonderful Sister, just a beautiful Sister, who was at Shrine High School. And we were in the same Theology class. I had to make up a Theology class to get to go to South Holland. SVMF: Yes, because it says High School Religion, that's what you did at South Holland. SMHM: I know it. But see I needed… SVMF: Yes, I mean that's why you needed. . . . SMHM: I needed refreshing courses in Theology to be able to do that. And so I went to University of Detroit during the summer. And there I met Ann Seubert. So Ann Seubert was a charming person. SVMF: Oh, yes. SMHM: And she said, "Sister," she shared with me, and that was something she didn't usually do with people. And she said, "Sister, I'm having a hard time at Shrine. I wish I could go someplace else." And I said, "Oh, Ann, I know just the place. You go to South Holland, I'm going there, and you can come right along. But you'd better get that principal to. . . " You know you had to make a bid, and see if there was room. And she taught Religion too. We shared then after school. It was so pleasant, and there was a young man there, brilliant, he was a Ph.D. And he taught the tenth grade. And he came in, and he liked both of us. And he said, "One day, Sisters, you think I'm a Catholic, my whole family is. I'm one of ten children . But I have my Ph.D., and I have it in Religion, but I no longer believe, Sister. " And I said, "Well, then how are you teaching this tenth grade?" And he said, "Sister, I went through all the books, and all it is is Social Studies." And he said, "So I told Sister that I could take the job." Well, to make a long story short, he was with us very often after school. He cleaned our boards. He was just a perfect gentleman. But the thing was after we left there, Ann Seubert and I, and Sister [Ruth] Dolores [Schneider], well, we got this bug about going out and being with the people and sharing our Faith and ©Sisters of Charity Archives 13 �doing this and that. And, my gosh, the three of us decided that we would go and be Parish Ministers and that we'd take Adult Education, also. SVMF: That’s when you went to Florence. SMHM: I went to Florence. Florence is where we went. SVMF: St. Benedict's. SMHM: And they had trailers, and we went to the people and did all kinds of things…. SVMF: Today is November 13, 2018, and I, Sister Victoria Marie Forde, am back in Sister Mary Helen McKenna's room in Mother Margaret, and Sister would like to add a few things that were very important. Sister Mary Helen, you wanted to talk to us about Father Coughlin's mother. SMHM: Now Father Coughlin loved his mother dearly. He did not want to put her in a nursing home. So Sister William Mary [O'Connor] and Sister Henry Miriam [Miller] assured him that the Sisters would take care of her. So everybody was asked if they would sit in the evening from 5:00 on until the next morning with Mrs. Coughlin, who really had some problems with her mind. SVMF: Did she live in a special place? SMHM: Oh, yes. Father built a lovely garage for the Sisters to use down the road on one side. And the top part had lovely rooms for the Sisters, who would not sit with Mother, but would come to help anyone who was having a problem with Mother downstairs. And then there was a special button that we pushed if we needed help. SVMF: Those are the Sisters who live on the same floor as Mrs. Coughlin? SMHM: No, just you, the person with her and herself, that's all. And so you took care of everything, and of course she hadn't eaten because this was after 5:00. Well, anyway, the thing goes this way. If you needed help, and many a time you needed help, because she might come after you! I'm joking. But anyway so we ©Sisters of Charity Archives 14 �pressed the button, and down came Sister Philomena [Marie Funni] or Sister Eugene [Fox], and I forget really who the third one was. SVMF: You said that you were trying to correct papers, and she liked to watch wrestling on TV. SMHM: Yes, and during the evening she'd turn on the TV, and it was wrestling. She loved wrestling. And you'd be sitting on the couch there with her and you'd be trying to be correcting your papers and that was my first year in high school, and I thought, "My gosh, I don't think I'm going to get all these done" because she'd interrupt; she'd look out of the corner of her eye, and if you were doing papers she wanted you to watch the wrestling. SVMF: Then you also said that she wanted the baby grand piano pushed against the door. SMHM: Oh, she had a beautiful baby grand piano, and at night she and you would push the piano over to the front door, so that no one would come in. So the Sister really was locked in, and that's why in her bedroom there was this button you could push. And of course it was needed many a time, and you just had to leave Mother alone then. She didn't like Henry Miriam, and she was the one that got all this going. She didn't like her because Henry Miriam was a little bossy. And she tried to clean up her bed and fix her drawers and, oh, she didn't like that at all. These were personal to her. Well anyway, whenever she got mad at any Sister that was with her and got very upset, she'd call her Henry Miriam, she'd call her Miriam Henry and we'd all knew or it would be William Mary. She'd call her name out, whenever she didn't like what was going on. And it was not really to be made fun of, but it was a serious thing, and the Sisters really were generous in giving their time to take care of her. SVMF: The other thing that you said you wanted to include and go back a little bit to was the Athenaeum and especially Sister Generosa [Quinn]. SMHM: Oh, Sister Generosa! Sister Generosa, that name should be remembered by every Sister of Charity from then until beyond whatever the end comes. She was a marvelous teacher, and I'd like to say that anything that I did good in teaching was all part of my experience with Sister Generosa. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 15 �SVMF: I've heard wonderful things about her too. I was too late to get her when I went to the Athenaeum, but she still had a wonderful reputation. What did she teach? SMHM: She taught, I think it was, Psychology. I think that's what she taught. And she was a great friend of Sister Henrietta, a Mercy who was a real to notch teacher in Math. We all had Math from her, and we had Sister Generosa. I mentioned what she taught. And then we had another marvelous teacher, Father Kaeneke. Now Father Kaeneke wouldn’t be a master as a teacher. He sat at his desk, and he poured forth all kinds of knowledge and philosophy, the Sacraments, we had those from him. We had everything the Church from him. We had all our Religion programs from him, and the best of all was his Psychology. His teaching of that, he was a marvelous teacher, but every Sister or priest that went to the Athenaeum when they came to testing time, you had to say if you left out the letter "a" that would mean something different, and you would not get a very good mark. He'd check that answer off. SVMF: I told you that the fun thing that we had from Father Kaeneke years later was that funny saying that, "She who does not toot her own horn, that horn remaineth untooteth." And we always laughed about that. Well, Sister Mary Helen, how about. . .? SMHM: Can I say one thing about Armin Cooper? SVMF: Oh, sure. SMHM: Armin Cooper was in my band, and we were at the Athenaeum , and she in my mind was the smartest woman in the Community. Well, Father Konecke tested all of us with this question, he said, "What was the greatest miracle of all time?" Now, Victoria, I don't know if you had that question. SVMF: No. SMHM: All right. Well, the priests would say, "Oh, the Mass"; we'd give all kinds of answers. And no, no, no, no, but Armin, who was so humble, put her hand up just a little bit, and of course he called on her, and she said, "The Church." Now I have ©Sisters of Charity Archives 16 �said that, repeated her answer was to his question many, many times, and if you really think about everything and think deeply, these other things all come with the Church, and the Church itself is God's work on earth. Jesus is the head of the Church. And he nearly, I think he always used that question just to get people thinking, "Well, you're not so smart." But he nearly fell off the chair that she said that because he had never had the right answer. (Excerpt omitted: Sister Mary Helen discusses a parish ministry in Florence, Colorado)…. SMHM: We had wonderful success with the people. SVMF: Oh, wonderful. SMHM: They were Hispanic, and they were so beautiful. And really the charismatic movement, they gained it from us. However, the three of us were really at it, you know, as charismatics. SVMF: Yes. SMHM: But we had prayer meetings, and oh, gosh, they prayed, and I thought to myself, in God's eyes I haven't been praying, you know? They were just so beautiful, and we were very successful. We went to all the trailer courts, and we weren't successful in conversions, though, but we were successful in being nice to the people and the people welcoming us. SVMF: Sister Ruth Bockenstette said she went down for some of your prayer meetings. About three times, she said. SMHM: Would she agree to what I said? SVMF: Oh, definitely, yes. So what happens, you finally leave there? You're only there for one year, right? SMHM: Yes. SVMF: And then you move on to St. Mary's. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 17 �SMHM: Well, Sister Ruth Dolores had already been at St. Mary's, and so they welcomed me as an addition. And in that way I saw all the beauty of the West, you know. We were able to drive the car up to Denver. We went to meetings up there, and we saw Santa Fe and knew the history of it. SVMF: But that's you and Sister Ruth Dolores. Sister Christopher[Ann Seubert]? SMHM: Sister Ann Seubert was in Pueblo and worked there among the people. She really was a good friend of the Bishop. SVMF: She didn't stay in that house? SMHM: She wasn't, but she became a good friend of the Bishop. SVMF: Did she stay in that house? SMHM: Oh, no, no, she went to Pueblo itself, not Florence. She didn't stay in Florence, she went to Pueblo. SVMF: Okay, and you two went to St. Mary's. SMHM: And we went to St. Mary's [Albuquerque] because Sister Dolores had been there, and I hadn't been any place, so I went there. SVMF: Were you teaching English there in junior high. SMHM: Yes, it was the ninth grade. They only went to the ninth grade. And, oh I met, Carita, am I saying the name right? She was Hispanic but she wouldn't say Hispanic, she wanted to be Castilian. SVMF: Sarita, Sister Sarita? SMHM: Sarita, that's who I'm talking about. She was a partner to me in the school. I taught English and Religion, and I don't know what else. I didn't teach Math, that's for sure. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 18 �SVMF: You were there for one year, and then you moved to Christ the King in Pueblo as a Pastoral Coordinator. SMHM: Sister Martha [Farlow] was at Christ the King in Pueblo. And they were quite wealthy people. They were just below the university. And they were very upset with the Bishop at that time because-- I forget his name. I don't forget it but I can't remember it right this minute. And, anyway, he had just closed all the schools in Pueblo, every school. Now he was a convert to the Faith, and that could have been somewhat of his thinking, you know. Anyway, he closed every school in Pueblo. So Sister Martha was working as we were working, but she was up at the University [of New Mexico] area. And she came down to Pueblo and asked if we would, you know, come and help her out because she needed help. There were so many kids, and it had been for a while that he had closed all those schools, and they didn't know their Religion. And Martha was a very marvelous teacher, really, and so we went up there, and Ann Seubert was up there, so she asked if she could again live with us. And so she lived with us in the house that was given us, and we taught at the place. SVMF: It says here that you were Pastoral Coordinator, Religious Education teacher and . . . SMHM: That's right. And my big thing was curriculum, so I did that, and of course you had to type up the lessons. You had to do all that. And they were both very high up in Theology. So we had these University people that were very wealthy. They were furious with the Bishop. They had just built a school, can you imagine it? And they were furious, but they brought them down for CCD, and Sister Ruth Dolores took all the high school kids, and I took all, not all, I took a certain portion of the grade school and so did. . . . SVMF: Ann? SMHM: No, no not Ann Seubert. Ann Seubert worked for the Bishop in the city, the Bishops's work, but she lived with us, see. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 19 �SVMF: You were there for two years, and then it says you went to Sacred Heart School in Colorado Springs. SMHM: Yes, we were there for two years. We had the pastor who is in all kinds of education. Especially when you're teaching just Religion, you know, you're part of the same new wrinkle. The pastor, we had a hard time, so we left and went to Pauline Memorial [Colorado Springs]. They were so happy to have us. We went to Sacred Heart first. And then we went to Pauline Memorial, and from Pauline Memorial I returned back to my home. SVMF: Right here at the College. SMHM: Here at Mount Saint Joseph. SVMF: And so you taught at the college, Early Childhood Education for one year? SMHM: I did that in the summer time. I didn't teach at the College; I don't remember, maybe I did. Is it down there? SVMF: It says that you went from August 20, 1978, to June of 1979. So that looks like one year at the college, Early Childhood. SMHM: Oh, I know; it was the Campus School. SVMF: Oh, the Campus School, oh, that's wonderful. SMHM: Sister Marilyn Joseph [Czarnecki] was the principal, and it was an experimental school. Oh, man, was it updated, and it was wonderful. And I got to make the room that I was teaching in, I got to put the sun in it, painting , the whole wall was painted with sunshine, did you see it? SVMF: Yes, I did. And the halls were always full of light. SMHM: And Sister had a big, big bear at the door. Well, Sister was very, very wonderful as principal of these experimental things that went on there. Sister Marilyn Joseph was an excellent, excellent teacher, but she was also an excellent ©Sisters of Charity Archives 20 �principal, and they had marvelous teachers that loved to experiment. Now that's what that meant. That was the College's experimental school. SVMF: And then it says you went to St. William's from there for quite a while. SMHM: Oh, I wanted my last years in education with at least the neglected or the poor or maybe becoming or the school rundown. Now St. Williams was not run down. Oh, my gosh, it hit me in the head. The thing is Lower Price Hill was beginning to infiltrate, so it really was a city school. It was close to the city, and I taught there, I think five years. SVMF: 1979 to 1984, you're right. And then you went to St. Boniface. SMHM: That's when I really wanted to be in the inner city schools. And, oh there was a wonderful, wonderful principal there, Joanne Geis. Oh my gosh, she was good. And she was wonderful. She checked on the teachers. The teachers were excellent not because they were excellent maybe when they got there, but they were surely excellent after they had been there. And she checked everything, and what I liked about that for the inner city school and really for all education at the elementary level it should be no different than at the high school level. We should have beautiful plays. We should have beautiful,. . . Everything should be based on Thomas Aquinas's "Search for the truth, love the beauty, love beauty, all beauty, and the last one, goodness." Always appreciate goodness no matter where it's at, the furniture or whatever or the person, especially the person. Now those three things at every school that I was in I used that on the stationary at the very bottom of the stationary sheet. SVMF: How good. SMHM: "We excel in directing ourselves toward truth, beauty and goodness." SVMF: Oh, my. You can't get better than that. SMHM: And that is not for college, that is for first grade. And every class should have all the things that pertain to those three levels. And each person, each teacher should try to have those within their own lives because as Thomas said, those make you truly human. Try to develop those things. But see it brings it to ©Sisters of Charity Archives 21 �schools that you have plays. You have little plays in the classroom. You have kids stand up and try to make a play all on its own. You see and get partners to help and put on a little show. You know, we used to do that in our neighborhood. SVMF: We did too in the garage. SMHM: That's right. Now in our neighborhood one of the men was a carpenter. Now I lived in the Depression era. But this man was a carpenter and had pretty good people coming to him. But he built a doll house but it was big enough that we could stand up in it, and three or four people could be in it. And so what we did, the girl's name was Harriet, and she was my friend. She lived across the street and they were wonderful nonCatholics. They were Episcopalian. Not that, they were Presbyterians. But, anyway, we would put on plays and invite the neighborhood, and they had to bring pennies to come to our play. And I'll never forget we got people from outside too. We got my friend from school, Regina Miller and a Helen Daly. These were from school. See, we went out beyond our own little neighborhood, and she had people, and we would make the play up. That's the big thing. And we would tell them their parts, or we would sit down some day and write down the parts for them. But the funny part was, this was about a king, and Helen Daly was kind of a big person, so she [was king], and Regina Miller was sort of slender and thin, and Regina Miller took the part of King, not Helen Daly. And of course we had an audience out there. But Helen Daly got so mad she pulled the rug out from under poor Regina, and she hit her head against the wall. Then we tried to make that part of the play. SVMF: Oh dear! Yes, that’s how we did. SMHM: You did plays too. SVMF: Oh, absolutely. Rright in our garage, and we have pictures of us all dressed up. SMHM: That's for creativity right there in your back yard. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 22 �SVMF: Now, that's so true. Now from St. Boniface it says here that you went to the Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center in the teaching program, "Church Life." That needs explanation. SMHM: I taught. When they accept you there at the hospital, the Children's Hospital, you see that was my final place, my final hurrah. I went there because I really, this is kind of. . . . I was going into my fiftieth or something. I was going into the fiftieth, and I didn't want a big fuss at St. Boniface, so I stopped, and I went to Children's Hospital. And that was the reason. But I was long enough there, and I contributed, and we put on a big, big play. SVMF: What does Church Life mean? It says you were there, Children's Hospital Teaching Program Church Life at the Hospital. It says here you were at Cincinnati Children's Hospital, and your job title was in the Teaching Program, Church Life. Church Life, I just wondered what that was. SMHM: That's a lay place, I mean that's not a Catholic place. I didn't teach any Church. . . . SVMF: They have mistakes here, so that must be a mistake. They have more than one. SMHM: Please correct that. SVMF: I will. SMHM: What I did there. . . . When you go to Children's at least at that time… SVMF: 87-95, that's a long time. SMHM: Eight years I think. Anyway, you teach anything. You are supposed to be able to teach anything from Grade 1 through Grade 12. See, the kids bring their own books. Now I didn't teach first grade, but I did teach kids that had this, I don't know what they called the temporary thing there. . . . They were trying to get them trained down. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 23 �I did teach a second grader there. But then I did teach some sick little children. I really don't know what grade they were in. But they were at least sixth or fourth grade, you know. But then I also taught them. . . . After I was there awhile, I was sent to the Oncology unit and that was the saddest thing, heartbreaking. It was really something. It made me so aware. They would come with their books. I would have to go to their room. They were not well enough to come anyplace, so I'd go to their room, and here they had. . . . They were ready for me. They had all their books stacked up. And we went book by book by book, and I thought to myself, "Here's these kids who don't have much more life in them, but they want to study. And the kids in school you have to fight with them to do work for you." SVMF: I know. It's so hard. SMHM: And that I think goes through all grade levels. But anyway, these children, oh, they wanted to learn, and you could do nice things with them to make them happy. SVMF: What a wonderful ministry. SMHM: It is. Then I had a boy, and his last name was Hoover. He was from Kentucky, and he was a senior. And he was the popular boy in the school because he was the chief football player. He was also tall, so he was the basketball chief one. And he was president of his class, senior class. Well, in February he kind of felt sick, and they sent him to Children's. His own doctor diagnosed him. It was cancer. So they sent him to Children's, and this tall, handsome young man I taught, and I can't tell you the blood-- He was memorizing his chemistry formulas- I can't tell you the blood was running down his eyes because of the Coumadin, see, and, my gosh, I just loved him whatever his first name was, Hoover. Weekends I didn't teach I went home. SVMF: Where was home? SMHM: Mount Saint Joseph, the Motherhouse. And so anyway one day I came back, and he had died. And someone said, one of the nurses said to me, "Sister, we had to do it this way." His mother would put this big boy on her lap and just hug him and rock him, you know, that kind of thing. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 24 �And here he was, and they called the mother apart one day, and they said to her, "Just tell him it's all right to go." And so she went back and told him, I'll say Bob. "Bob, it's all right to go." And do you know, he looked at her, and he died. He died in her arms. Isn't that sad? I went to the funeral. I mean the wake, I went to the wake. And he wanted for Christmas a cowboy hat and big boots, and that's what they had for him. They put the hat on his chest and the boots were on him. SVMF: You had some very touching experiences there. SMHM: Oh, my and then we had at the university, they were decorating or doing something to where they put the people who are mentally distracted, and, my gosh, didn't they give me charge of these boys. They were like ten feet tall as far as I was concerned. And I had to teach them. SVMF: Is this at Children's also? SMHM: Yes it is. And see, so I had to teach them, but they wouldn't be taught. So I forgot everything, and I said, "Let's play pool." So they played pool, and, boy, they taught me. Oh, they were happy to teach me. I kept trying to hit those balls. You hit one ball and three balls go in. I didn't do that, they did. And then they had, there was another big game there that they played that they could jump on the ceiling, and they could jump on the walls, and they could shoot people. Oh my, it was terrible. What was in that thing? But two or three of them would get together, and they would get these things in their hands, and they would push all these men in the TV all around. SVMF: Like those games. SMHM: Yes, those games that you really shouldn't watch. SVMF: Well, you were there from '87 to '95, but that wasn't your last hurrah. It says here that then you were at Presentation Ministries. As a coworker for Presentation. Those are those little books that came out? SMHM: Oh, yes that was Father, oh, he was a saint. Father, you'll get the name, won't you? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 25 �SVMF: I will. [Father Albert E. Lauer] I know they did it in Spanish. I always got the Spanish books, English and Spanish. SMHM: He wrote all kinds of books. And he was a saint, he really was. It was at the same time that another saint priest died, and his name was something, you can look that up, like Whimple. SVMF: Willig, how about Willig? SMHM: That's it, Willig. And he had a prominent family, so he got a lot of attention. Poor Father Lauer. I think I got the name right. He was at Old St. Mary's and working like a dog, you know. SVMF: What did you do there at Presentation? SMHM: At Presentation Ministries every day we would go, and people would mail in that they wanted, certain book, and then we would mail the books out. That's what I did there. And then upstairs I helped with the ones that were in charge. I helped them do things. SVMF: This is at St. Mary's downtown? SMHM: No, Father Lauer was at Old St. Mary's downtown. But his Presentation Ministries was I think on Kensington Avenue in Cincinnati. And how they got this Presentation Ministries was Father Lauer, I hope I'm saying it right, Father Lauer was a brilliant man, and he made all these books and things, when he was the pastor at Presentation Church, but the Bishop closed it because it was a small parish. And then the group there wanted to still be together, and so they founded what they called Presentation Ministries. And that's popular, I guess all over the state. SVMF: It says that you were there for five years. SMHM: Yes, I was, but, see, I was doing more clerical things. SVMF: But you were still working. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 26 �SMHM: I was passing good education. See, the books were very bold. Somebody really ought to try to add more. They were more leaflets, you know. SVMF: Yes, I used to have them because they had them in English and Spanish, and I always wanted to read everything I could in Spanish to keep Spanish up. And they were good. SMHM: He was on the radio too, you know. SVMF: Well, then finally, finally you retired, and you came back to the Motherhouse? SMHM: Yes, and I, well, I came back to the Motherhouse, and what I really did was get some materials that would be ethnic and had music and stories with it, the language, but I couldn't speak the language, of course. But the thing is I went to different rooms, and I remember Gertrudis [Pfeiffer] especially. She was from Germany, came over when she was five years old and she was very tall, and she was a wonderful, wonderful nurse. And, however, she wasn't thinking fully straight, and she was ill too. SVMF: She was in Mother Margaret? SMHM: She was in Nursing. And that's where I went, the Nursing in Mother Margaret. And I went to her room, and she was an opera soprano. Yes, she was. And you never heard her sing? SVMF: No. SMHM: Oh, my gosh. Well, anyway, she would sing, so I found these German books, you know, and the leaflets and things, anything German, and I'd go to her room. I'd say, "Did you ever hear of this?" And she'd look at the book, and say, "Oh, yes." And I said, "Can you sing a German song?" I would have something there. And it was easy to get the German stuff. Anyway, she'd look at the song, and then she'd look , and she'd sing this German song. Oh, I heard her all over the floor. And the people, the help, would come out to hear her, you know, and of ©Sisters of Charity Archives 27 �course she couldn't see them because she was facing the window. And they all loved that. And I thought this is wonderful. So the next day I thought I'm going to go back. Well, I went back, and she'd say about the song, "Oh I haven't sung that in years." And then she'd sing it, and then the people would come. Well, that was enough because we'd had enough. And the next thing now, I didn't have any friends, and I didn't have any friend, Sisters either but German and Irish. And I don't know what else there is. SVMF: So that was your ministry then. SMHM: It was a ministry for me to have music, and if they were artists or something, they could do some art, any of the nice things that would be of beauty. SVMF: And now you're here, and I would just like to ask you about your life , and what you think about religious life now and in the future maybe. SMHM: Well, I'm very conservative, and I feel that the Sisters are doing wonderful work. However, I don't recognize some of it. But I know they're doing good work because people are improving their lives because of them. And there is one that is dead. The funeral will be tomorrow or is it today? SVMF: It's today, Mary Lou Knapke. SMHM: Her name is Mary Lou Knapke, and her life has had a lot of different turns, and at the end people say now, "See, I don't know her or what she has been doing up to the present, it was a sudden death, beautiful work. Another Sister, who was before her in death, was Sister Elizabeth Cashman, who was in the College and did all kinds of different work there. SVMF: And she also worked with Hospice. SMHM: Oh, did she? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 28 �SVMF: Yes. SMHM: She worked at Hospice, my goodness. SVMF: I find out so much when they give the reflection at their funeral. You find out, oh my goodness, you know. Today Father Boltman, the Jesuit, who's in charge of the Retreat House, and he has Bellarmine Chapel. He wrote a beautiful response to Mary Lou's death. Here's what he said: "She was such a good gift to so many of us Jesuits. I always felt on the same page with Mary Lou. She was turning the page and calling me on. This is not the kind of person that you think will suddenly just not be there. And I'm sorry not to be with everybody today at the funeral. She always made clear, 'We do what we can.' Thanks to God for her.' Richard Boltman, Jesuit, SJ." Wasn't that a beautiful tribute. She got one tribute-- it will be a big crowd today for her funeral--but listen. . . . SMHM: May I just say one more thing? There are many other Sisters of humbler background that are really the saints of the Community. Sister Ann Loretto [Connell] is one. And there are many, many more whose names are just names, but they are beautiful Sisters of Charity. SVMF: Do you want to say anything about the Church, Mary Helen? What's your future plan? What do you think about the future of the Church? SMHM: Oh well, Pope Francis is a pope for these times. There are some things that for us, me, might be questionable about people going to Holy Communion and not being fully Catholic. And there are other questions too, but I'm not capable of talking about them now. But I feel that people love simplicity, and that Pope Francis is, and he took the name Francis, and I think in Spirit he is very close to him. SVMF: And he's a Jesuit. SMHM: And he's a Jesuit. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 29 �SVMF: I know you could hardly have a better combination; that's an interesting thing. SMHM: That's it. And I really think. . . . I listen to his homilies. I listen to his Mass on Sunday, and, oh gosh, you can tell he's a Jesuit. He must have majored in literature or something. SVMF: Well, Sister Mary Helen, I don't want to stop your oral history without you having said everything you want to. But you can always add thing; we can always add if you think of something else. SMHM: Well, there's one thing. Remember at Shrine I was telling about Grace Miriam made me do everything practically, and she gave me. . . to open up, I want to say, "You can fix this up." SVMF: In the school? SMHM: You know where the kids make decisions. SVMF: Counseling? SMHM: No, not counseling. Well, anyhow, I'll let you know later. Anyway, she put me in charge of this, so I had to organize this group, and they were very much wanting to do this. And of course they were children that were in wealthy areas in Royal Oak, Michigan. And they were kind of spoiled and on the risqué side. But anyway we put on this talent show, and, oh, they all wanted this, and they were all wanting to be in it, and they were the preferred. Well, these boys, there were four of them, were harmonizing, and they were singing, "We're poor little lambs," that song, and all of a sudden the back doors of the auditorium opened, and there was Father Coughlin with Sister Grace Miriam. Now in this area, the Royal Oak area and the other area, I can't remember what it's called, but they were all one. It was Birmingham and something else. Well, anyway, Father Coughlin was stuttering, he was mad, and he came up to the front of the auditorium, and he blasted the whole group, all the kids that were there for the talent show, and the people that were on the stage. And he turned and let them know that they weren't hiding behind his back. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 30 �SVMF: Is this at the actual performance, the actual performance with the audience? SMHM: The actual performance, the whole school was there. All right, so anyway, the problem was that in this area were wealthy people, wealthy kids. They were writing bad words on doors, and they were doing other things, and some of ours were in on it. And that's when he said, if ever he finds these people, "After my talk, I'm going to do something to you." Then out he marched, and out goes Grace Miriam with him. So the door closed in the back, and I didn't know whether to pull the curtain, or what to do, or go on with the program. So I opened-- we had closed it, and now I opened it, and here were the same kids, same boys. See, they were all seniors, and here they were, and I thought, "Oh, now surely now they'll start another song." No, no. "We're poor little lambs that have gone astray." They finished this song that they started. And they were poor little lambs, I'm telling you. SVMF: Oh dear, I'm glad that you got that in. SMHM: Is that all right? SVMF: Yes, that's wonderful. SMHM: You can take it out. SVMF: No, no, I'd never take that out or take anything out. I want to thank you just from the bottom of my heart for such a refreshing and such an enriching oral history. SMHM: I just hope it was all right. SVMF: I wanted to get an educator in our oral history as part of our history of the Sisters of Charity, and who better could do that than you. SMHM: Did I do enough of it? ©Sisters of Charity Archives 31 �SVMF: Oh my, you certainly did and such a variety of missions and ministries. SMHM: Another thing I'm going to say about education, a good teacher reads all the writings that are updated for education. SVMF: Yes. SMHM: A good teacher has those among her library books. And a good teacher, I think, is a totally alive, and I really mean we're alive with Christ within us. But the point is what you mean outside of that. They're not sitting at their desk; they're down with the kids, they're looking over the papers that the kids are writing. They're helping them. They're doing lots of things. You're not just sitting at the desk or sitting up there eating an apple on top of the desk while the kids are writing. Really, I know that they have to write, and they have to take tests, but by the same token the rest of the time that they're not doing that there should be active and lively activity in the room. Even if all you want to do is what we did when we were kids, have some of them come up in the front of the room and make a little play right on the spot. SVMF: Just keep active, intellectually too of course. SMHM: Don't put that in if you don't think I didn't speak very well. SVMF: I think you spoke very well. SMHM: I'm more talking to you. SVMF: No, I think that's part of your oral history. That's very important advice for all of us who are teachers or who will be teachers, most definitely. SMHM: The Sisters really did do that. SVMF: I just want to thank you and I'll turn off the recorder with a deep heartfelt thanks for all you have shared. SMHM: Any of this bad stuff I am telling you. . . . ©Sisters of Charity Archives 32 �SVMF: I don't think there is any bad stuff; it's excellent. Thank you again. What a wonderful oral history, what a treasure we have. Thank you so much. ©Sisters of Charity Archives 33 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed McKenna, Sister Mary Helen, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 Hour 32 Minutes 8 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Mary Helen McKenna, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC November 12, 2018 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Mary Helen McKenna by Sister Victoria Marie Forde. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McKenna, Sister Mary Helen, SC; Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/12/2018 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Laverty, Jackene (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Mary Helen McKenna, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC November 12, 2018 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1920-2018 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/2c9fec846b91d21718a8c208f7378c19.jpg 06a72fe5c1f98b2310b7f6fdf40395e6 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/fefae11f535f1120223344d5de6a773a.mp3 2e43bc3240f0f092fae74cf93a260119 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/87619c9a297b9373255a010440ecdf4d.pdf 97b1bd390c7aef9029db54c1e9100dee PDF Text Text Interview with Sister Lucia Mao Interviewer: S. Pat Saul NOTE TO READER: This interview seems to have been conducted in a restaurant. The background noises are very loud and make it difficult to understand at times. The interviewer began by asking: “How did you get connected with the Charities?” Through a Franciscan priest. First I have to start with the fact that I was a convert. I was baptized in July of 1946. After that I had to leave the city and come to the South where there was no church, of course. When Spring came I saw the trees and flowers, I realized that it was time for Easter. So I thought I had better go to find a church to fulfill my Easter Duties. That’s where I met a Franciscan priest. He asked me if I would like to go to Confession. I told him then that this would only be my second confession since I was baptized. He invited me to come back in the morning and he will be having Mass here. There would be only a handful of people there. So I went. When it was time for Communion, I kept on going, but he told me to wait until I was the last one to receive Communion.....and he gave me five hosts!!! Later I asked him why he had given me five hosts. He answered that this was his last Mass, and that he was leaving and he didn’t know when another priest would be coming... he was a Chinese priest. Then he asked me what I was doing. I answered that I would be graduating in May, and I have to get a salary. So, I would like to go to nursing school. He then told me that he knew somebody in Wuchang, Sister Francis Maria. I asked what kind of sisters are they? He said that he didn’t know. You see, he was a refugee from the North also, and he was not familiar with the Sisters. �2 Interviewer: Did your whole family come with you? No, not my whole family, just my aunt. You see, my mother was dead by that time, she had been killed by the Japanese, so I lived with my aunt. So my aunt, my uncle and my little niece came to the South, just the four of us. Interviewer: Did they convert to Catholicism, too? No, I am the only one and my younger brother. We went to Catholic school but we were not Catholic. The reason why we went to Catholic school was because, during the Japanese occupation, the Catholic school was the only decent school there was around there. They decided that they would build a dispensary. My grandmother had connection with the dispensary. When we were sick, she always dragged us there to see the Sisters. The Sisters there were not even nurses, they just dispensed ordinary medicine. They also had a school. That’s where we went to school, even though we were not Catholic, but they always had a religion class first, two hours in the morning. They didn’t ask if we wanted to attend, but we went and that is where I learned about religion. Then, we asked to be baptized. They wouldn’t want to baptize me, because I was a girl—in China when girls marry you have to go with your husband, whatever religion he is--. My brother was younger and he got baptized because he was a boy. When I was 16 or 17 we had a big war going on. The Japanese, where we lived, inside the city and the National Chinese outside the city. I went to the priest and said, you have to baptize me . He asked why. I said if I get killed by one of those guns, I won’t be baptized. He said, well, you could have the Baptism of Desire. I said, I know but I’d like to have the real thing. So, he baptized me. I had no one for my Sponsor, so he went to the dispensary and asked one of the Sisters. The Sisters were not supposed to, but that was an emergency . So I got baptized there. It wasn’t even a feast day. I told Father, if I don’t get baptized and I die, I’ll come and get you! Later, Father gave me the address of Sister Francis Maria. So, I thought, I’d better go and take a look and see if I’d like to go there. If not, I should make arrangements to go to another school. So, I went just to look. I told them that I wanted to be a Sister, but first I wanted to be a nurse. I would become a nurse and then I would go to become a Sister. �3 They said that they were building a hospital at that time. They suggested that I reverse, enter first, and then become a nurse later after you become a Sister, and I agreed. I had not told my aunt or uncle. At the time that I had left, my aunt had given me enough clothes for two weeks. I didn’t tell them what I was going to do. So, I decided I wanted to enter, and I did. I entered in September. In November, the Mother General sent a word for us. The Professed Sisters, the Novices had to come to the States. But we who were Postulants did not have to go, we had a choice, stay or come. At that time there were seven of us and we talked it over. We thought that it would take about 3 years and by that time we would finish our novitiate and then we would be back home. And so we decided that we would come. When we got to Shanghai, we had to wait for Pauline and two other young ladies who were joining us. They still had to get their passports. While I was there, I wrote to my aunt and uncle and told them that I had entered instead of nursing. Then, my uncle wrote me a long letter saying that I didn’t know what I was doing, didn’t we treat you right? And he said, if you don’t like it you can come home. We thought at that time, that we wouldn’t be gone not more than three years, we didn’t think that the war wouldn’t last that long. But it lasted longer than anybody expected. You asked about my parents. They are not Catholic. But, one thing, my father did have a connection at one time. He went to Bejing and he studied with an order of priests who spoke French. So he spoke French. The priests came to our little town later, and they did not know how to speak English, I mean Chinese. When they spoke French, my father would interpret for them. When people found out that he was not even Catholic they were surprised. AT THIS POINT THE INTERVIEWER ASKED ABOUT HER FAMILY. Many...you don’t want to know, there are a lot. I had one father, three mothers (she laughs ....there’s a whole bunch of us). My first mother, she had one boy. The other mother she had one older girl that died. And then the third wife she had six boys. Right now there are only three of them left. They are really my half brothers because my mother only had me. My younger brother and I went to school. Boys went to boys’ school and girls go to girls’. He was only nine months younger than I am. He is Catholic. �4 When I went home to Taiwan, his wife saw us going to church, and she said when you are not here your brother doesn’t go to church. See, they work 6 ½ days a week, they only get a half day off on Sunday, so he doesn’t always feel like going to church. INTERVIEWER: IS IT STILL UNDER STRICT CONTROL OVER THERE NOW? Not in Taiwan. In the Peoples Republic of China, I don’t know that much about it. When I went home in 1985, the church was open, but I understand that they are not under the jurisdiction of the Pope. So, my family won’t take me to church...I didn’t want to go, but the rest of the Chinese Sisters, they go. Now I think that Rome does recognize them. In Taiwan there are no restrictions . In Taiwan I have two brothers, cousins and nieces and nephews. The reason they are there in Taiwan is because they are all military people. My cousin in the navy, my brother in the army, my older brother is with the police, so they went there. They are all having a hard time right now. INTERVIEWER: DID YOU GET YOUR NURSES TRAINING OVER HERE? Yes. Mary Pauline and I both made our final vows and most of the time we worked in Mother Margaret Hall. After we made our final vows we thought we would spend the rest of our lives there, so we couldn’t go back to China. At that time, Mother Mary Romana was in office. When we got our Mission Letters we said you made a mistake that’s not for us...she said, yes, isn’t you name Lucia? I said yes, but I’m ready to go back to Mother Margaret Hall for the rest of my life. She said, well, you’d better go look in your letter and see what is in there . We were missioned to Good Samaritan, Dayton. After we read our letters we went to see Mother individually. She said to us, it takes an American girl three years to finish nursing, but now you can take four years, five years, since you will not be going back to China for a while . We made it in three years, with a very low score. Psychiatry was the worst part. We didn’t know the language our mistakes were mostly in multiple choice, we had to know the language in order to read it. But we made it in three years and then Mary Pauline and I were missioned out like the rest of them. �5 INTERVIEWER: WERE YOU ABLE TO GO TOGETHER? No, we were separated. She went to Kenton and I went to St. Joseph Infant Home. Later, I went to Trinidad, she went to (noisy, could not understand) Her specialty was psychiatry. She was so good! She was almost as good as the doctor. INTERVIEWER: WHAT WAS YOUR SPECIALTY? I would say operating and/or emergency room. That’s where I started in Trinidad, it was a small hospital. Sister Jeanne Roach was there. She worked what seemed like 33 hours in a 24 hour day...she did everything, OR, ER, nursing service and sometimes, she even had to take charge of a floor. After she left, there was no one for OR so I went there, but I was still on night duty. I liked it there very much. I like the Emergency Room, I even like OB. I wasn’t very good with OB, but in Trinidad they had few doctors and it was not easy to get a doctor during the night. They would claim that we did not know what we were talking about. When they give me a hard time, I would say, just go back to sleep, I’ll go deliver my own baby. He would say, don’t you dare, don’t you dare! and I always managed to get them there. One doctor signed the birth certificate and the woman said she would not pay the bill, because she told the Doctor, you didn’t do anything for my baby, Sister did! Yes I like Trinidad, I was there for 7 years. We often laughed when the people who didn’t have money would pay their bill with chickens, goats. One day when I was in the emergency room and was told that I did a very good job. The man came back with 12 eggs and he said that that was not in payment, it was for me. �6 INTERVIEWER: HOW MANY SISTERS WERE IN TRINIDAD AT THAT TIME? We had three tables full...close to 30, but not all in nursing ... Jeanne and myself... whenever anyone came, they didn’t stay very long so it changed often... at times we were three nurses, an Administrator and Superior at the same time. The doctors in Trinidad practiced good medicine, very much up to date. I was there 7 years, and I liked it. I became good friends with Sister Jeanne, she worked all the time. Her Dad came to see her, but she never had time to visit with him. She was in emergency, OR, ER and every other place. So I visited with him. So after she left, her Dad still came back to visit me. Her Dad sort of adopted me. INTERVIEWER: WERE YOU IN CHINA DURING THE JAPANESE OCCUPATION? I was there for 8 years. The Japanese killed my mother. They had their own government in the South. My uncle became the mayor of that town. In China the mayor is a very big shot. He even had a bodyguard. Many of the Japanese officials came to see him. Then we saw them too. One of the Japanese soldiers had received a package from his mother with toys and other things and he would bring it to our house to give to the kids...that was OK, but when they got drunk, we all had to hide we didn’t know what they would do. Other than that they were good. In school part of the schedule was that we had to learn Japanese two hours a week. We learned a few words, like “good morning” and “good afternoon”... in between time, we were taught English. Because we were not Catholic at time, we were left alone. My grandmother became a Catholic later. My uncle did not because he did not like to kneel. In China there was only a bench to kneel on and that was hard to do. But every feastday like Christmas and Easter, my uncle would always go to church with us there was much pageantry and he liked that. He often had a big banquet delivered to the convent for the Sisters. He thought that the Catholic church saved his life otherwise he would have been shot. �7 They killed my mother, but even then I wasn’t angry. We were the enemy, and they had to do what they had to do. Every time the airplanes come, they bombed us and even then I didn’t feel angry. When my mother died I was 9. The family had to run away. See where we lived it was in the country and there were no telephones and we got the news later than others. The newspapers said that the Japanese were going to be there in like a week or so. So we had made provisions, we were going to go to a relative’s house in the mountains because where we lived it was wide open, so we were going to go. In China, a new mother was not supposed to step out of the house for a full month. So, my aunt stayed home with the baby so they couldn’t go to the mountains. My mother and I were running, but there was shooting on both sides. We were the last ones to leave. My mother got tired and she said, your aunt is still home, let’s go back home. So we went home and the Japanese came but they didn’t stay, they kept on marching on a very narrow road. But the last group stayed in the village. They didn’t stay inside a house, they were afraid that the Chinese soldiers come and get them, they stayed outside. But while it was still daylight, they came into the house and they asked my mother for money or something since she didn’t have any they hit my mother and she fell. My aunts kept telling my mother to stay down, to pretend she was dead. But she did not she put me into the bed with my sister-in-law and the baby, all three of us hid in the bed. So, they finally killed her. My mother and I were very close. Since I was her only child, I had never been away from her for even one night, I stayed with her all the time. Later when it got dark and the Japanese went outside, my aunt gave me a choice, either I would stay with her or I would go with my father. I chose to stay with her because my mother and my aunt were good friends, so I stayed with her, she took care of me all the time. A little history: when my grandfather was a young man he owned a cigarette company. (at this point she is explaining a diagram) The Bishop lived here. The Bishop had money to build a church in the city, our city. So, my grandfather needed spices for his cigarette stuff from this city, but the Bishop needed money to send to a place to build a church ( I could not understand her explanation since I could not see the diagram... I think she was explaining the relationship between the Bishop and her grandfather) And so when they came to inspect the church, they always made a call on my grandfather. The neighbors thought that my grandfather was Catholic because the hierarchy came to visit but in reality, they came to visit with him because they had had business together at one time. �8 WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU CAME OVER WITH THE OTHER SISTERS DID YOU ALL BAND TOGETHER? DID THE DIFFERENT DIALECTS MAKE A DIFFERENCE? No, it didn’t. Some of them spoke Mandarin but there is not that much difference. Sister Columba and another Sister they were from Hunan, that’s not too far . Now my dialect is all mixed up. We understood each other. We didn’t stay together much. Some tried to stay with the American Sisters. Some of the Sisters that we worked with in Mother Margaret Hall were very nice, but some were not. Sister Michael Ann was in charge of Mother Margaret Hall and she was a nurse. She once commented by saying that she didn’t know how the Chinese Sisters put up with her. We had one Sister who had an asthma attack real bad , we had to give her a shot of adrenalin. Sister Michael Ann told Columba to give her a shot. But at that time we had not had much nurses training and Columba did not know. But I had worked there before, so I went to take care of her and that protected Columba. WOULD YOU DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN? I don’t mind. Yes I would. Most people have been very, very nice to us. In Nursing School, the worst teacher we ever had was a Sister of Charity. The best instructor I ever had was a Protestant, a Baptist, she helped me a lot. There were a lot of nice people. NO, I would not mind doing it all over again. I’m glad I did it when I did it, but I don’t think I want to start over. Nobody ever pitied us...saying that we would be homesick and things. Some times I think that they didn’t think we had any feelings. When I went back in 1985, I asked my aunt what did she think would have happened if I hadn’t left. She said I would be like the rest of them, miserable. �9 DO YOU THINK THAT NATIONALIST CHINA AND MAINLAND CHINA WOULD EVER UNITE? I wish they would. Most of the people have people in both parts it was like a civil war. The Communist would like to have one people. DOES TAIWAN NOW HAVE MOSTOF THE MONEY? I think so, yes. Those people are working hard to get where they are. They are more educated and so forth. DO YOU HAVE ANY RELATIVES IN THE STATES NOW? No. I had my nephew who was here 6 years but he had to go back because he could not get a green card, so he got layed off . But he liked it here. They had one baby born here. He is an American citizen, his father got him a dual citizenship. They lived in Studio City in California when they were here. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// THE REST OF THE TAPE WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE OF THE NOISE IN THE RESTAURANT... BUT THE DISCUSSION WAS MOSTLY A FRIENDLY CHAT ABOUT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. NOTE: towards the end of the tape, Lucia reiterated some information: - she was baptized in China she was confirmed in Santa Fe she was 13 years in all in the West she was 13 years in Michigan she liked every mission � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mao, Sister Lucia, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Saul, Sister Pat, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 Hour 1 Minute 40 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Trinidad (Colo.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Lucia Mao, SC Interviewed by Sister Pat Saul, SC Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Nursing--United States--History; World War, 1939-1945 -- China Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Lucia Mao by Sister Pat Saul. No date was noted in the transcript and this recording seems to be more of an informal conversation taken while at a restaurant or public setting. Sister Lucia shares the challenges she and her family faced in China during the Japanese occupation in World War II. She also shares about her nursing education and ministry in the United States. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mao, Sister Lucia, SC; Saul, Sister Pat, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Lucia Mao, SC Interviewed by Sister Pat Saul, SC Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1928-1985 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series China Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b4f6dbc3ce6935c31e77f68c4d421389.JPG e706ba8fc4b540a6bc4628be4547a171 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f7dce71ee17ef74a143801b884dec1be.pdf 67e02f8e7f33631c9a3752a9a7c8b86b PDF Text Text INTERVIEW WITH SISTER CELESTIA KOEBEL October 31, 2013 I=INTERVIEWER Sisters Andrea Koverman and Tracy Kemme S= SISTER being interviewed.... Sister Celestia Koebel M= Sister Monica Lucas....close friend of S. Celestia present and assisted at interview I: Tell us a little bit about your life before you became a Sister. S: I was born in Chillicothe, Ohio. I have three blood sisters. Mary, the oldest is deceased; Ann, who is also a Sister of Charity; Jodie, my younger sister is married and has a family. She lives in Florida. Three of us were nurses. Mary was an RN, and Jodie went through nursing, too, and then of course, I went through nursing. When I entered, I did not have a good feeling about teaching, so I kept telling people that I would like to go into another field, mainly nursing. So, two other Sisters and I were placed in nursing which was not the usual route after having taken first vows, it was usually teaching. So, I went into a three-year program at Good Samaritan Hospital here in Cincinnati I: Was your mother a nurse? S: No, she was a simple housewife. My Dad was a CPA, had a full-time job and then kept books for other establishments on the side. I used to help him put the checks in order when he had to do the reconciliations. He died when I was in nursing I entered in 1946 and was in nursing in 1947, 1948 and 1949.1 liked nursing very much, and I always appreciated the fact that the three of us were picked for nursing. Sister Helen Cranley, who is now in Mother Margaret Hall, was one, Sister Ann Seton Gallagher, who is deceased was the third one. I: Do you have any memories or stories of when you were growing up with your siblings. What life what life was like in your family home? M: Tell them the fishing story. S: We were out in the middle of a creek in our hip boots when my Dad had a strike. We were standing on a log that was really in the water, so he told me to put my pole out there, and WHAM! I pulled so hard that the poor fish went back into the water, but I just picked it up. That was the first time I ever caught a fish. I used to go fishing with my Dad because he worked very hard to support his family, but he liked to get up at 4:00 a.m. To go fishing before he went to work at 7:00 a.m. I would go with him frequently and then I would go back home and slip back into bed. We had a very close family. We did everything together. All of us girls went to the Mount after we graduated from high school. I had Sisters of Charity �teaching me all during my school years. We went to St. Mary's in Chillicothe where the SCs were there. We kind of grew up with the Sisters. We all went to College at the Mount on scholarships because our family didn't have a lot of money, but we worked hard in school and were able to get scholarships. I: So what did you study at the Mount? S: As I said,I knew that I didn't want to be a teacher, but I let it be known that I would like to be in nursing. I went to school two years and then I entered. My sister, Rita, the second oldest, had entered, and I got the idea that it was pretty neat so I entered too. My oldest sister, Mary went into nursing at Good Samaritan and then eventually got married and had a family as did my youngest sister Jodie. M: What kind of nurse did you become? S: I became an OB nurse. I think that I went into that right away. The first year I was out West at St. Mary Corwin in Pueblo. After that I was sent to Good Samaritan and was an OB nurse there. That was when we used to deliver about 500 babies a month. I: So you entered the Community because your older sister did? S: I think I got the idea from her, but I probably would have otherwise anyway, I'm not sure, it's hard to tell. I: How much older was she than you? S: Three years. I: Did you think about becoming a Sister earlier in life, like when you were in grade school and high school with the Sisters of Charity? S: I didn't think too much about it I don't think that I really felt that I had a vocation until I was probably in College. I: What are some memories of your early years as a member of the Congregation when you were in formation and in the novitiate? S: Oh! We did a lot of things. We tried to be very good and got our prayers and obey and everything, but every once in a while we would get into a little bit of trouble here and there. We were young and we had to see what we could get away with. I: Can you think of any particular incident? �S: No. M: Can you think of anything, because, as a nurse, you were sent out quickly didn't you to Good Samaritan? Can you think of anything that the young Sisters did. Roz has got lots of stories. Do you remember when Grace Marie was your Superior or anything? S: Oh! I think that Sister Grace Marie was instrumental in my being picked to go into nursing. She was not only the Administrator at Good Samaritan, but she was also Coordinator of Health Care Services, and she was instrumental in picking people to go to school, and she was a good friend. I: Did you live in community when were at Good Samaritan? S: Yes. We had a whole wing that was for the convent because there were so many Sisters there at the time... probably about 20 or 25 Sisters. I: That's a lot! Nursing School was pretty regimented in those days wasn't it? Didn't you have curfews where you had to sign in and sign out? M: Tell her the curfew story in Dayton with Sister Mary Romana when she was the Superior. After her term as Mother, she became Superior at Good Samaritan, Dayton and you were OB nursing Supervisor. S: Was I Supervisor there? Yes, I remember. Sister Edward Cecile and I used to be late getting the office closed, and I had been late leaving the floor. Mother would lock the convent doors at 8:15 because we were all supposed to be in by that time. She would lock both the elevators and the doors so we had to get Security to let us in. We would kind of tiptoe by her office because often times she was still sitting there working. Sister Edward Cecile (Roz) was there too. She worked in the office. She was always one for a good time. Be sure you interview her! M: Sister Grace Marie is the one who asked you to go into Hospital Administration and sent you to St. Louis University. I: Were you interested in doing that? ? S: Yes. I went to school and got my Masters in Health Administration. That was a one-year program at St. Louis University, and the second year out in a hospital. They sent me to Providence Hospital in Seattle, Washington. M: Tell them the earthquake story. S: Good Friday, I was in the chapel praying and I thought that it was a little strange that the votive light �was kind of moving back and forth. I didn't think too much about it until later when I found out that it was an earthquake that had occurred that afternoon. It wasn't a bad one. I really liked Seattle and I enjoyed the Providence Sister, Sister Gertrude, who was my mentor when I was in the residency program. So, I got to take long train rides because we didn't fly in those days. Going out to Seattle, Washington was quite a trip. I: Were you by yourself? S: Well, I could to that by myself, but there were certain things we couldn't do by ourselves, like shopping, etc. But going on a long trip to Seattle, I could do that by myself, (chuckles all around). So, then I finished my residency which lasted two years, one year in St. Louis attending classes and one year in Seattle. I had another Sister-friend. She was from the East Coast. She and I used to walk a mile down the road (rain or shine) from where we lived in what was like a hotel. But it was really a dorm for St. Louis University. It was good for us. I: After your year in St. Louis, then you went to Seattle? S: Right. I: What did you do after that? S: I graduated from St. Louis University with a Masters in Health Administration M: After you graduated you were sent to Albuquerque to build a hospital. That's where you spent 25 years. S: There was an old hospital there that needed renovation or replacement. On one of my trips East, Mother Mary Omer informed me that they had agreed to build a new hospital. It was an interesting process, because I had no experience but I would meet with the department heads of our other hospitals in the West and say, "Now, if you were building a new hospital, now would you do it?" So ,1 got a lot of help between them and working with the Architect. We tried to get it right. I: So you were instrumental in designing the hospital? S: The hospital opened on June 6, 1966 as St. Joseph's Hospital. I: I know that hospital, it is huge and there is a big memorial to Mother Seton �M: that was in Celestia's honor. She went out two years ago, they had the dedication for the Memorial Park. I: Lots of Sister of Charity worked there right? S: Oh yes. But it is not ours anymore. There were many Sisters of Charity in Albuquerque at the time. There were many in the hospital and then there were some in Old Town, St. Vincent's Academy and other places. There were about seven Catholic schools in Albuquerque at that time staffed by the Sisters of Charity. I: After the building of the hospital, what was it like? S: It worked out pretty well. It was quite a step from the small hospital, we had to get used to this 12story structure I: It is still a vibrant, thriving hospital, so it is still a legacy even though it is no longer our Community's hospital. I: It has to be a little scary to be in charge of that big a project without having any experience S: Well, that is why I used so many people to help me out. M: I can remember one day when we lived in the old convent (which has since been torn down). She and I were going out and I said that I would meet her at the garage (and the garage was very small) and we both had learned to drive in New Mexico. I went out, and she was in tears, and she said, "I have got to back and ask for $10,000,000 ! S: But I did go, and I got the money, and I did survive. I: How long were you there at the hospital? M: She was there 25 years. She probably would have stayed longer, but Sister Grace Marie Hiltz died and the Community begged her to come back and take over SCHCS (Sisters of Charity Health Care Systems). So she came back although she would have preferred to stay in Albuquerque. M: (continued) She was involved with SCHCS for about ten years and together \ with two others got the brainstorm of forming CHI (Catholic Health Initiatives) S: Diane Moore out of Catholic Health Associations in Omaha where she led a group of eight or so hospitals in her part of the country. She lived in Omaha. And with her and with Ron Aldridge who was the head of the Franciscan Health Systems from Astin, Pennsylvania. The three of us met together to see what we could do together. And, finally, in 1996, we founded CHI which was a separate �entity which took the place of the other systems. And then, the Sister of Charity of Nazareth Health Care System in Bardstown, Kentucky came in and joined us within a year. It was a very interesting process, because, here we were CEOs' appointed by our religious superiors, trying to convince these superiors that we needed to let go of our health care institutions and agree to be led by another organization. I: Can you remember what led you to think that something like this should be formed? S: It was the fact that health care was getting very complicated,and that we didn't have the Sisters interested in getting in and getting trained anymore. There were fewer Sisters at this time, and we felt that it was important to keep the viability of the institutions alive. I would also say that other Catholic institutions were looking to doing the same kind of thing that we were so it kind of became a trend at that time. So we founded CHI. I have a whole book on it written by S. Maryanna Coyle and Pat Cahill who at that time was the head of the Catholic Health Corporation in Omaha made up a many hospitals around the Omaha area. We were all trying to educate and motivate our leadership to have a new model for health care. I: Was there much resistance in the Community for that? S: I wouldn't say a lot. It was a leadership decision, of course. The Sisters were all informed about it but the leadership could understand how complicated health care was getting at that time. So, I would say that the fact that these other hospital systems were willing to work with us probably made it easier for our leadership to accept. M: They did a good thing. First of all, they took a year to educate all the staffs, the boards, etc. and then for another year the team traveled to every convent and we had meetings where they explained the plan. They would get questions, and they would send back the answers. Besides that, Celestia was a firm believer in the laity. Some of the Sisters didn't want the responsibility of leadership. So it was one of the marks of her whole , group to bring in the laity. After they had gone around for a year or two, it was brought to a vote at the Chapter and it was accepted unanimously. She (Celestia) almost fainted. S: It was a great moment. We knew that it would affect the Sisters who had worked in health care all their lives to accept this...that we were sort of giving up our health care institutions. But I think what probably helped was the fact that other health care systems were coming with us, joining with us. I: That was so forward-thinking. We keep hearing in all our formation process comments about health care �and your work and your vision was so forward-thinking on that. M: From what perspective have you heard about it? I: Just visiting other communities. We've taken some trips to other Communities and talked about how they have dealt with their hospitals and health care in general. Everyone has seen this as sort of an example of a good thing, and the time was right too. S: Health care was becoming too complex, and there were not enough Sisters involved or willing to be involved in the leadership. M: And they didn't have the money, that also was a big thing. S: We founded CHI in 1996, and within a year the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth joined us. I: Can you explain a little bit about what that meant, because, if I understand correctly, now that none of the hospitals were sold, right? What exactly happened to all the hospitals? S: We created CHI which was the sponsoring group for the new Health Care System. So, in essence, the Congregations turned over the ownership to it. It did take a lot of education on our part to help the members understand why we were doing this. But, we were able to pull it off. Sister Marianna Coyle was President at that time, and she was a firm believer that we were doing the right thing and she helped us a lot. I: Was there a period of transition after that was formed? Did you stay involved with the hospitals, or did you step out of it? S: People were given the choice. If they were in a position in a hospital they were given the choice to either stay there or not. But, it was almost the decision of the new group's leadership to pick leaders for the institutions at that time. I: So, did you stay in the position of leadership in the hospital? S: No. By that time, I was the President of SCHCS, so I had left any leadership position in any individual hospital. I: What did you do? �M: When CHI was formed, the three of you decided that you should not be a part of that new CHI. S: It wasn't such a big thing except to the individual hospital's administrators. I: So that people who were employed there simply became employees of CHI? I: Were you living in Cincinnati at that time? S: Yes, I was President of SCHCS for 10 years and at the end of that time, I became a member of many Boards I: Did you enjoy that, traveling around and being on Boards? M: Tell them how you were on 9/11. You were out in Seattle and you and your partner decided what? S: I was a Board member at Providence Hospital then. Another woman and I wondered how we would get back home since there were no planes flying. We thought about renting a car and driving, but we were not that eager to get home. I: What did you do after retirement? Did you really retire? S: By that time, I wasn't too young.... how many years ago was that? M: Well, you retired about 10 years ago, but you only retired from Board membership about 8 years ago. And a few years later you started having health problems that has been 6 or 7 years now. S: And I'm now 85! I: When you were commenting about how involving the laity was always really important to you, it made me think of our class on Vatican II and I was just wondering about whether you had any memories about when Vatican was happening. How did that affect your work and your life? People have told us that Vatican II came out and there many changes in the liturgy, changes about how common life was lived, the dress of Sisters etc. I don't know if you were in leadership at the hospital at that time or what. S: I think that all that was happening while I was still in Health Administration in Albuquerque. M: We received a memo saying that the Sisters would change their black habits for blue or not. There were 30 Sisters on staff at the time. Celestia was Administrator and I was Superior and every one of the Sisters decided to change. Sister Grace Marie came out West about that time and she told us that the �nuns back East were saying that our Sisters had been forced to change, (laughter) The nurses had more dealings with the laity and the doctors than a teacher would. The hospital Sisters, for the most part, welcomed the change because their conversations with adults were always meaningful, educational and collaborative. S: It wasn't too difficult for us to change. I: So you welcomed the change.... it felt natural? S&M: Yes M: I've never seen anyone who has been able to meet change like her (Celestia) she is not excitable about things. that's her temperament. S: This book (CHI) was written by Pat Cahill and S. Maryanna Coyle about the time that all this was happening (AT THIS POINT SHE OFFERED THE BOOK TO THE NOVICES TO USE AS A REFERENCE FOR MORE INFORMATION BUT DID SAY THAT SHE WANTED IT BACK). I: Thank you, we would enjoy looking at that. M: That's about one of the last things Maryanna did. A couple of weeks later she called us and asked us to go out to dinner, and she told us that she had cancer. She lasted about a year and a half after that. Monica (addressing Celestia): What did Maryanna say about CHI? That it was a good idea? She had not really bought into it at the beginning. She said that the reason that she wasn't too sold on it was because it had not been her idea, (laughter) I: Can you talk about the Community charism or what sustained you through all your years as a Sister of Charity? S I was always happy in my vocation and when all this happened, it didn't affect me much. My sister (S. Ann Koebel) was OK with it too. Others could do whatever they wanted to do, but I felt that I still had a vocation and wanted to live it out. I: What do you like specifically about the charism of our Community? S: That is hard to answer, because I don't know what other Communities charisms are.. I: What do you like about this Community, how about that?... what's the best thing about being a Sister of Charity? �S: I think that our Community has grown with the sociatal changes that have happened; have accepted that, and we haven't tried to hold on to a lot of things. I was just happy in my vocation and I wanted to stay there. Fortunately, I didn't have the temptation to do something else. M: I think the charism, you know, taking care of the poor, ministering health-wise, and social justice issues and things like that, we may not be involved in per se, but we pray for those who are and we are glad that the Community is open to them. Open placement is something we had not experienced before, and when we did, it was a little bit difficult because we were held responsible for what we chose to do. The hospitals, I think, saw more of the Sisters who left because they were sent to the hospital for us to get them ready, getting them dressed etc, In Santa Fe, they had a lot of young Sisters, too and for whatever reason, a lot of them left from there. Celestia made sure that when they went out, we as a Community were behind them, had jobs for them etc A few stayed at our hospital for some time. S: Well, that was what we did in those days, it was all part of being a Sister of Charity, and we, at the hospital, probably had more resources to help them. I: You were talking before about having fun times out in the West. You've had some pretty big jobs but what have you done for fun throughout your life as a Sister of Charity? S: Well, we were able to take trips. In my job I was able to go out of town periodically to attend professional meetings, and when I could , I would take someone else with me. Or sometimes, I would stay maybe a day or two extra to enjoy the place. That helped. I: It sounds like you have a strong spirit of adventure. M: She went up in a hot air balloon and sometimes when we had golf tournaments some people would offer rides in a small plane, and, she once had a beer with Willie Nelson in his bus. (LAUGHTER AND EXCLAMATIONS!) I: Tell us how that happened. S: He was entertaining at one of our golf tournaments and invited me in. M: The guy she really liked and got to come every time because he became a sponsor, was Charlie Pride... she still gets a Christmas card from him. I: Do you like to read? S: I love to read. I read a lot. I like a good novel. �I: Did you ever play golf? S: Not really. I was too busy trying to raise the money I: Do you like Willie Nelson's music? S: I really don't know. I like classical music I: Have you gone down to the symphony? S. Yes, I have. We have a great symphony here. I: Throughout your life as a Sister of Charity you've seen lots and lots of changes in the Community and in religious life. Do you have any thoughts about the future of religious life? S: Changes, yes. But, changes probably brought on by changes in life in general. I think that religious life is always going to adapt to changes socially, too. That just kind of happens. But our primary goal as vowed religious isn't going to change. END OF DISC #1 THERE IS A SECOND DISC BUT IT CONTAINS ONLY A FEW WORDS OF GRATITUDE FROM THE NOVICES FOR THE PLEASURE OF THIS INTERVIEW � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Koebel, Sister Celestia, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Koverman, Sister Andrea, SC; Kemme, Sister Tracy, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 Hour 27 Minutes 36 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Albuquerque (N.M.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Celestia Koebel, SC Interviewed by Sister Andrea Koverman, SC and Sister Tracy Kemme, SC October 31, 2013 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic hospitals -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Celesia Koebel by Sister Andrea Koverman and Sister Tracy Kemme. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Koebel, Sister Celestia, SC; Koverman, Sister Andrea, SC; Kemme, Sister Tracy, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/31/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Celestia Koebel, SC Interviewed by Sister Andrea Koverman, SC and Sister Tracy Kemme, SC October 31, 2013 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1928-2013 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/bf13f8ec9cb25e0e37ccea23be487017.jpg 6ff1209a96861c48f5c0eaf77e621268 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/3b3b3b1532187134c1e84cd52fe3e139.mp3 db6600ed99dfe1f156b024a3e0fa42b5 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/380add82bde7b08b490c629d869ce13e.pdf 8bb63abdc719bf5c70e873981b7295c7 PDF Text Text SISTER LINDA CHAVEZ – ORAL HISTORY CD # 83 [Bracketed words are additions by S. Linda upon review.] Today is June 27, 2011 and I, S. Victoria Marie Forde, am in S. Linda Chavez's room [Motherhouse] ready to begin her oral history. Victoria: Linda, your folder in the Archives is filled with articles and papers about your wonderful life and your many accomplishments and honors. Now, when you have just reached 85, besides highlights of your life, perhaps you will also share your experiences within the Community and Church during your almost 64 years in the Community. But right now let's begin at the beginning. Linda: I am a daughter of Leo and Leanor Chavez. My mother was born Leanor Perea and was a school teacher and married Leo Chavez who had been married and his wife had died. They were both in their late 20's. A year later she gave birth to twins. My twin brother, Leo, was born first, and then I came along. Victoria: Was this all in San Isidro? Linda: Mother went up from Albuquerque where she was living to visit her mother before the baby came, and to her surprise the babies came on May 31st when she was visiting in San Isidro [about fifty miles from Albuquerque]. My uncle had to go to Bernalillo to get a doctor because there is not one in San Isidro and help with the delivery. [The babies were born at Grandma's house.] She had two well babies. We didn't grow up as though we were the same age because Leo was much slower in developing than I was. So, even though he did graduate from high school, it was four or five years after I did. But he was a wonderful human being, loved people, and people loved him. [He died at age 76.] As my sister Priscilla, who was born a year later says, "I am sorry I didn't die before Leo because I don't know who will come to my funeral." At his funeral the Church was full. Victoria: Then you went to the University of New Mexico? Linda: I went to public school first. I was only four years old when I forced my mother to take me to the kindergarten because my two aunts who are just two years and three-anda-half years older than me were at Eugene Field School, and if they could go I could go. So she went with me to the kindergarten to see if the teacher would take me, and she said to my mother, "She speaks English, so I will keep her." So I was only 5 years old in the first grade so that makes me graduating a little earlier than most. Victoria: And you are bilingual? Linda: That is right. [English was spoken at home. Our maternal grandmother lived with us for four winters. She did not speak English, so we learned our Spanish from her.] When I was in sixth grade is when I moved to the [St. Vincent] Academy, and I knew nothing about Sisters. �Victoria: This is St. Vincent's Academy in Albuquerque, right? Linda: Yes, I graduated from the Academy, and then went on to UNM and I needed one semester to graduate, and that is when I told my mother and father that I wanted to go to the convent. She said, "We won't talk about it until you are 21." So I did work for my father for a year and entered in 1947, and I had those six credits to get before I got my degree. Victoria: Then once you went on a mission you had many different classes that you still kept up with? Linda: Well, I can honestly say that it is only two classes that are real close to me. The first two years I was a teacher at Corpus Christi Grade School in Dayton, and I had those youngsters for two years, so they are the class that know me best, and they had me all day long. And the next year I went to [Holy Trinity] Middletown for one ninth grade. It was the last ninth grade of the Middletown [Holy Trinity} High School. There were only twenty-four in that class, and they were very self motivated students. So they became very close to me and since then they seem to want to visit with me whenever I come East, and we get to see each other almost every year. Victoria: Maybe you could just mention your degrees. You did get quite a few degrees. Linda: Well, I got a BA degree in Education and a Master's degree in Family Life Education which is called Home Ec and a master's in Theology. Victoria: But you did go to St. Louis [University] for Spanish though? Linda: No, I went to St. Louis for Family Life Education. I went to Loyola of Chicago for my Theology. Victoria: You just took Spanish classes at St. Louis? Linda: No, I took some college grad classes in Spanish,but they are mostly Spanish Literature. I had taken Spanish in high school, and of course the family spoke both languages. While my education at St. Louis University was very good and also helpful for Theology, after starting my graduate studies in Theology, it was during the time just before and after Vatican II. I was so conscious of the fact that we tried too hard not only to prepare the students for responding to the Vatican II, but also their parents. Every year we had classes for parents in order to help them understand Vatican II. Victoria: Where are you teaching then? Linda: In Middletown and Springfield and of course [two] years in Michigan. And from there I was missioned to Albuquerque. We continued there to try to not only teach the students but also the parents [about Vatican II]. Victoria: And your theology background is from Loyola then? Linda: Yes, all Jesuits. St. Louis, Loyola, and Albuquerque was always Jesuits. So I feel like I am a Jesuit girl. I probably would have been a Jesuit, but I can't join them! Victoria: So then once Vatican II did happen, or did occur, then some changes were happening in the Community too. �Linda: Yes, and I was very pleased that I really felt called to be an ambassador for the Vatican II because many people were resistant to it. I think that was even true in the Community – that we were going too fast or moving too fast and I was asked to be on the habit committee in 1965. That was when we were not thinking of not wearing a habit but changing from the black habit and veil to a simpler dress, and for some reason they called it the Seton blue, which was not navy blue or light blue. It was just a little kind of a turquoise blue. It was a Seton blue as we called it. Even that was interesting to see the change was well received by some and not so well received by others. But soon, speaking of habit, there was a motion toward more changes in the habit. I was still on the habit committee, and we had done a study of material and everything to see whether this is important or not. For the Chapter, I think it was the Chapter of '69, I was asked to give the report on the habit committee and I remember coming to the old Novitiate room and finding S. Ellenora [Hilbers] there. She said to me, "Dearie, I hope you are going to keep us in the Seton blue." And I said, "Well, I am not sure of that," and the one reason was the habit committee had noticed that there were going to have to be much bigger changes than that, and that people in other communities were moving toward a modern dress. So she said to me, "Keep us in our Seton blue." So I went in and gave my report, and in those days you didn't stay to find out what happened so I left, and I was studying at that time in some place in San Antonio and having classes there. Victoria: So you weren't even in Cincinnati? Linda: No, I wasn't in Cincinnati, and I had flown, and summer school was over, and I had always. . . . During the Chapter we received the reply every day, and that particular day it never came, and until I got home I found out that they had voted for an option of dress. And that was like "What does that mean?" And it meant just what we said: that people could begin to move toward what they thought was comfortable. And for me it was definitely to be in a modern dress and look like the rest of women. Victoria: Why was that important? Linda: It was important to me because sometimes when I had been in Cincinnati, probably living in Middletown, I made the Cursillo, and the Cursillo is always four women or four men. And I was with a group of women, and I was so conscious of being deferred to because I was in my full black habit or blue habit or whatever habit I had on. It was a barrier to being feeling the same. And those women were beautifully spiritual and caring and wanting to please God as I was. And here I was being looked up at as if I come from another age or space. Victoria: Like on a pedestal? Linda: Right. And so that made me decide I wanted an option of dress because I didn't want that separation from the rest of the Catholic women. So I was very. . . . But one little thing I did, I was already in Albuquerque at St. Pius [High School], and my mother had an account at Kistler Collister's Victoria: Which is a department store? �Linda: Yes. So many of the sisters [I lived with] didn't want to go shopping and try on things. So I asked my mom if I could use her credit card and just take some clothes back to the convent so that the sisters who didn't want to shop for themselves could look at something and see how it would look on them or what size they needed. You know, at that time people didn't even know what their size was. So that became a very lucrative investment, and so we gradually, we were at least thirteen of us at the convent at the time, and we gradually started wearing a little more modern dress. And being a seamstress I helped people sew, and I sewed for myself, and we gradually started knowing what we wanted and what we needed. Victoria: The worst thing was trying on bathing suits. Linda: Well, that early we didn't come to the Mount to bathe [swim], so that was not a problem. It was quite a few years later that we bought a bathing suit. But I am sure nobody tried it on at the store. Today is Tuesday, June 28, 2011, and Linda Chavez is back here with me, S. Victoria Marie Forde, in a room at the Motherhouse to continue her oral history, her amazing oral history. Linda, let's talk about the variety of boards that you have been on. I counted fifteen boards--six national boards and nine local boards. Is there anything outstanding that you can think of about being on any of those boards? Is there anything that you would like to mention? Linda: Well, I think, especially as a young Sister I was really happy to have the experience of being on national boards. And I remember, I can't remember the sister's name who was very prominent in our Community [S. Mary Janet Miller], she had been an officer, and she asked me to take her place on a board which was the National Catholic Conference for Interracial Justice. That was in the 70s. It gave me an opportunity as an Hispanic sister to be present to people who are talking about the changes in respect for other nationalities in the country. Victoria: And I see that you have received many honors. The ones I see on your resume are one that you received was the S. Mary Lea Human Service Award from the College, and the 20th Annual New Mexico Conference on Aging in appreciation for dedicated services to the seniors of New Mexico. And a special achievement award, the Senior Foundation Senior Hall of Fame in Albuquerque, and also you are in the Hall of Fame at St. Pius High School. Is there anything special you want to talk about with that? Linda: I think being on the Hall of Fame in Albuquerque is the fact that we did work through S.E.T. with a number of communities of seniors. And I think that was probably the reason and having been the director of it. Victoria: Were you the only woman in that? Linda: No. I would have been the only Sister. Victoria: The only Sister in that Hall of Fame?! �We haven't talked about S.E.T. yet, but would you like to talk about S.E.T.? If you don't mind, I would rather hold off for that a little bit. In 1978 you started a Scripture group. You are such an initiator of things. Could you tell us a little bit about that – at your home in Albuquerque? Linda: Well, I just feel that one of the things we need, I need, is to share Scripture with someone. It makes it more meaningful. I think we can read and read and not apply, and I guess I learned it here. I don't know where [I learned] of having groups to get together, and I think it comes out of maybe even the movement of where they were having prayer groups, charismatic groups, you know. And I do think that sharing Scripture is so important, and so I invited a few women. And it comes out also of working with the Cursillo because the Cursillo forms groups. After the Cursillo the women are to meet with a group of women every week and discuss their life, their Christian life, and that wasn't as easy for me to do as it was if I had my own group. And I had friends, and we decided to start talking about the Scriptures and get ready for the Sunday to come. It has been a real wonderful experience to know that I am going to be reading the Scriptures with others, and it started way back in '79, and it just kept up. Victoria: And this is lay women and Sisters, right? Linda: Oh yes, a mixture. Mostly lay women at first, and then some of the Sisters did join. Victoria: And someone in that group dedicated a book to you? Linda: Well, Nancy Morrison, who is a teacher at the University of New Mexico and is a psychiatrist was one of the members of my group, and she does, when she and her partner were writing, she does dedicate the one book, I am one of the ones she dedicated it to, and I was really honored my that. Victoria: It was an excellent book too. Then your home, besides being a place for the Scripture group, is certainly a place for community building. Do you want to talk about how you gathered the Sisters of Charity and not just in Albuquerque but in New Mexico actually, isn't it, or in Texas when they were there? Linda: Well I guess being an initiator anyway, you know I gather people, and so I think it is just part of my nature. It is not that I decided that this is the thing to do, but I like to invite people, and no matter where I have been, having been the Home Economics teacher and also the buyer of food, you tend to feed people. That is one way of gathering them. So I don't remember how that. . . . I think it did come out of the Cursillo movement. We decided to start meeting, and I know especially Marie Baca [was a result of her cursillo]. . . . Victoria: She is an Associate? Linda: No, she is not an Associate. She has been in the group forever. She didn't want to meet with the Cursillo women because her husband wasn't meeting with his group. So I asked her if she wanted to join us. So she has been one of the most faithful since way back in '78. But it is nice, and it has been going on, and we meet every Tuesday night to get ready for the Sunday. �Victoria: That is still the Scripture group you are talking about? What about the Sisters of Charity? That's what I was thinking of. Linda: Well, most of the time I had been in some kind of leadership, and so you gather, and it is just the same old thing that I am an initiator, and you start saying, "Let's celebrate this Jubilee," or "Let's do this," and you know you need somebody to start it, and I am one of those starters I guess you would call it. Victoria: And I have been the recipient of some of those wonderful celebrations and delicious food. Then you do have celebrations now? You are kind of moving over, you said that you are moving over to a new place, but I have seen how many people in your little apartment still, you know, gathered, somehow you do that. Linda: Well, twenty-four last Christmas, and we all fit! We play games and it was fun. Victoria: You said there were how many when you went to Albuquerque and now there are . . . ? Linda: When I went back in '69, we were close to 72 sisters between Albuquerque and Santa Fe. But you have to understand we had two hospitals, a high school and grades schools, and now we are down to 10. Victoria: And even so you are still gathering. Linda: Yes. Victoria: Now you have a lot of volunteer work in your resume. I didn't even count how many. But right now you are still a volunteering in six places including Good Shepherd. Shall we move on to Good Shepherd, but you have to tell us how you got to the Good Shepherd. You were in S.E.T. and maybe you should tell us… Linda: No, S.E.T. has nothing to do with the Good Shepherd. Victoria: No, but I mean you were working with S.E.T. before you went to Good Shepherd ,and do you want to tell us a little bit about S.E.T. before you are finished. Linda: Well, when we were working with St. Joseph Community Health, one of the things we had was a number of clinics, and we visited the older people and nurses would take their vital signs, and they knew we were coming once a month. So that person came often. And then when St. Joseph took over the clinics and things, soon they dropped the clinics. They only had. . . Now their goal is only to take care of children from zero to five which is fine, but it dropped all of the seniors. So S.E.T., which stands for Service, Empowerment, Transformation, did try to continue for some time with St. Joseph you know to help, but they dropped the money to pay the nurses, and so we had to change it. Victoria: At first was S.E.T. of Albuquerque? It became S.E.T. of New Mexico, didn't it? Linda: It has always been S.E.T. for Health of New Mexico. Victoria: And you were the one who got all the nurses volunteering. Linda: Well, some were volunteering, and some of the S.E.T. nurses were paid for because you can't have everybody being a freelancer, but we had a lot of volunteers too. �Victoria: Do you have any idea how many nurses you had? I bet you had many. Linda: It is too far away from. . . . Victoria: So after S.E.T. closed, or you left S.E.T., then you found another job, or another volunteer position I should say. Linda: Well, I'm trying to get it chronologically in my head, but one day I was at a meeting at the Brothers of Good Shepherd because I am on the Vocation Committee for the Archdiocese, and Brother Charles had taken me around to see what they do there, and during the meeting I kept saying, "I really never have worked with the real poor, materially poor." And it was bothering m, and so after the meeting I said to Brother Charles, " I need to do something down here." Now when I say "down here," it is in a poor area of Albuquerque and we would always consider it "down there." Victoria: What is happening at the Good Shepherd place? Linda: And so he said, "I can't talk about it today because I have another meeting, but can I see you tomorrow and we will talk about it?" And he wanted to know what I have done, and so at the end of that he said, "How would you like to be our spiritual counselor?" And I said, "What do I have to do?" And he said, "Listen." Well, that is a challenge. So I said, "Well, I would like to do that, and maybe I could come on Tuesdays and Thursdays." So I go every Tuesday and Thursday from 9:00 to 12:00, and they announce that I am present and they can come to the counseling room I am in. Victoria: Can you describe a little more about the Good Shepherd ministry? Linda: They have in residence homeless men ages from fourteen to maybe fifty-five, and they help them not only to start taking care of what their life has to be, but also to keep them safe. Many of them are trying to rehabilitate from alcohol or drugs or both. They can be there six to nine months. It is a rigid program, but it is excellent because if they can succeed in that, they are open to going back into the world. I am there twice a week to see anybody. The thing that is important is it's not that the Brothers just don't want to do what I am doing, but they don't have time. There are only four or five Brothers in the whole program. They are busy with administration and all of that. So I am free to just listen, and sometimes it is an hour, an hour and a half with one person. And as Charles said, "I don't have that kind of time." It is really wonderful. Victoria: They also serve meals don't they too? Linda: At the center every day at 3:00 the public is free to come for a meal, and it can be men, women and children. They usually have approximately three hundred every day. They don't feed on Sunday. It is one of the only places they can get a meal and so they have many, many there and then they do have the ones that are in residence. Victoria: And they are also working to help feed the people. Linda: Oh, they do help feed them, and they have a number of volunteers that come in every day. Victoria: Today is June 26, 2012, and Linda Chavez is here to finish her oral history, and there might be some overlapping, but Linda has had such an interesting life that it won't �matter. So, Linda, tell us about your time teaching and watching the ordination of deacons. Linda: I don't remember the date, but it was in the 1970s, I think, that a representative from the Bishop's office called me and asked if I would be one of five women that he has chosen to be trained for the diaconate, and I said yes. And so I think three of us persevered for a year or year and a half, and we went to all the meetings with the deacons and their wives. And occasionally there was a need for someone to teach the sacraments or whatever, and it is very hard to find someone to just step in and so one of the deacons said, " Sister teaches theology at Pius [High School]; she can teach us." So very often I was the substitute for one of the teachers, and so it was kind of a crazy thing to be in the class and teaching it as well. But we persevered through all the meetings, and it was obvious that some of the men resented the five women that were there. But however, I can't say that they were against us, but they would make remarks, "Why are they here?" And so it was time for them to be ordained deacons, and we were still hanging in there. And the Bishop invited us to come to the ceremony, and Archbishop Sanchez announced that while we were ready to be, we were trained already, but he did not have the authority to ordain us. And he said, "However, I want you to come up, and I will consecrate you for service." In my mind I did that long ago. And so we went to the ordination, and it was a little sad to be in the back of the line and know that the ceremony was not really for us. And there was just a kind of a little blessing at the end. So that was the beginning and the end. What did happen during, and even after that, I helped with some of the training. I don't remember how many years that lasted, but I did. Victoria: Several years? Linda: I think so. They'd call and say, "Sister, would you teach sacraments?" or "Would you teach . . .whatever?" Victoria: You told me one time about the wives insisting on going up with their husbands. Linda: No, that was every ordination of deacons. I don't think it was special. [They walk into church with their spouses.] Victoria: Tell us about becoming vicar. Linda: When I went to Albuquerque in 1969, I had been in Lansing, and I was on the Sisters Council--we formed it, in Lansing. And I was asked to be president, and Bishop of Lansing was very pleased, but very disappointed when I told him I was leaving the diocese to return to Albuquerque. And so when I got to Albuquerque, I asked around if there was a council for religious, and there was not an active council. So I went to see [Arch]bishop Davis, and he said, "I want you to form a Sisters Council. So I contacted the different religious communities, and at that time we had a representative of every congregation on the Council, and it got �to be too big. And then we had, like Sisters of Charity of any color or kind, or Dominicans, and then it was a little smaller and it was better. Bishop Davis started that, and then he said to me, "Well, other dioceses have a vicar. I guess I'll appoint you vicar." And I said to him, "I think the women want a man." I did say that, and I think it was true because I was conscious that that was the right feeling because when we went down south to [see] a kind of a cloistered group in New Mexico, I can't remember their name right now, but the president of that little group was constantly talking only to Father Kemper who was the other vicar for religious. We were both called vicar for religious. But she was much more ready to talk to him than to me, so I think that was a wise thing that there was a man and a woman. And later on though I went to. . . . Victoria: First, Linda, he wanted you to be vicar, one vicar, but then you suggested that he have a man too. That's when Father Kemper. . . . Linda: Yes, we were working together all this time, so he was vicar, and I was vicar. It turned out to be a good idea because some congregations were used to having a man come to do all the things vicars do like getting someone ready to become a member of their congregation and to ask if they joined willingly. So that was how it started. Archbishop Davis was one of the first to have a woman vicar, but there was a Sister Clare—I can't remember what congregation—around Ohio [corrected: Michigan] area, and she was vicar. Victoria: At the same time as you were? Linda: At the same time, yes. Victoria: So you two were probably the first women vicars in the United States. Linda: That's right. Victoria: That's wonderful. Linda: And so, and there have been women vicars ever since both in Albuquerque and other places. What's the next question? Victoria: Before I go on to the next question, is there anything that happened that was outstanding while you were a vicar? Linda: Only that it was very difficult to be a full time teacher and a vicar because you only had weekends to visit anybody, and that was usually what the vicar does. And it was good that we had both because Jim could go to some because he could get off . I mean he was a pastor, but. . . . Victoria: He was a full time pastor, and you were a full time teacher. Linda: Right. Victoria: Was the archdiocese all of the State of New Mexico, or was it divided already? �Linda: It was already divided. Victoria: But it was a pretty large area. Linda: It was very large, too large. Victoria: It's really from the north to. . . . Linda: There is a , --the diocese goes up north, I think, to the border and then south to Las Cruces; Las Cruces had a bishop, and Gallup had a bishop. Victoria: Still very large. All right. Now you said you were a full time teacher, and one of the interesting things you did was the innovative teaching of spirituality and the arts? Linda: We called it Spirituality through the Arts. Victoria: This is at St. Pius High School, Albuquerque. Linda: I was the head of the department of theology, and for two summers before we started, I took S. Augusta [Zimmer] 's class at the Mount. And while Sisters of Charity had taught me music, art was not ever mentioned if you were not an artist. You didn't know anything about art. And that summer, those two summers that I took those classes, I thought, "We are so lacking. . . ." In most Catholic schools do not have money for an art teacher or a music teacher for all pupils, not just for musicians." So especially after the second year of taking her class, I decided I would have a unit of my Christian Family Living as art formation so that that family would appreciate music and art. So I had the art appreciation unit for about six or nine months, nine weeks in the course. And it was interesting how much the students appreciated it. I used to get slides and pictures from the library, and, you know, to be able to recognize a Monet or to recognize a Van Gogh or whatever. . . To this day people tell me they still remember the artists, and this is a Home Ec class you understand, but it really was my desire in teaching Home Economics it was to teach Family Life Education, and I did all the units. And the one that some of the boys appreciated was when I would bring some of my former pupils' babies would come to the class, so that the boys could learn how to hold a baby, and that was great. The art appreciation was also well taken, and I thought that was a good add-on to the course. Victoria: Especially with all the art in New Mexico! I mean from Georgia O'Keefe, the outsider, to the Hispanic and the Native American art, oh my gosh! Linda: I don't know if I concentrated on that because I was really following Sister Augusta's class because to understand what kind of art you're looking at, and who are the great artists are. I'm not putting New Mexico down, but this was trying to get it more universal. Victoria: Now, you did talk about the Brothers, the time with the Brothers. Linda: That's the last thing I've been doing. �Victoria: Yes, and that's in our first interview, but I wondered if you wanted to talk anymore about that, and especially we had kind of left off where they were feeding other people. You know, they had dinners there, and. . . . Linda: The program at the Brothers of the Good Shepherd is awesome. I was talking to Father [Joe] Bruening, and he said he had never seen anything working like that. And they have thirty –four men who are in a program of rehabilitation from either alcohol or drugs, or both. And it's a . . . . Victoria: And you said they were convicts? Linda: The reason you say they are convicts is he used the word. Victoria: Brother ? Linda: Father Bruening. He used the word, but most of the men who end up at Good Shepherd have either an addiction, and usually if you have an addiction, you're not too honest either. So some of them. . . You steal so that you get drinks, and you break into houses so that you can buy drink or whatever, so that's the kind how it's double. But they have to go through s pretty rigorous evaluation for them to get in, it's for six or nine months. And it's the best program in the state which gets the best results. Some of have been there twice. And it's interesting; sometime the first question I asked is "How did you get here?" And it's awfully interesting to find out that somebody in Pennsylvania or Philadelphia or wherever comes to the Brothers of the Good Shepherd. "Who told you about it?" "Oh, somebody said that it was a good program,"and they write and come and get in. There are about thirty-four men at any given time in the program. Now the men do all the work in the center. They plan the meals, they prepare the meals, they serve them. And at 3 o'clock every day (I think there's one day they don't serve.) the public is open to anybody on the street, man, woman, or child. Victoria: For dinner. Linda:For a meal [for the public]. The men serve it. And it's amazing when you're talking to the men privately, how impressed they are when that giving that service. Victoria: You said there one hundred served? Linda: Any given day two to three hundred people. Victoria: One meal a day. Linda: One meal, but of course they get all their meals. [Residents get three meals a day.] Victoria: Well, I've take a tour with you through the facility, and I saw how, just how loving the men were with you, hugging you and so happy to see you. Linda: Oftentimes the people have come in to see me, you know, recognize me if I'm not in the office, but around. I guess for me for a person to trust you with their life story—it's awesome. And I guess I hadn't experienced things like that before in my life, and it's just a like a privilege to be gifted that way. �Victoria: And also the Brothers have been very good to the Sisters, allowing them to have events there? Linda: Well, not at the Center, of course, but a few years ago they—I don't know what gave them the feeling that they were going to get more members, and someone said, "You're going to have to build and make your home larger." And they built a whole big section which is almost always empty because they're about –I don't know. . . if they're about six to eight people there. Victoria: Brothers. Linda: Brothers. And so whenever we have company, men coming into the city, I send them over there. Brother Gerard says he just feels good when he can offer the place to somebody else. Victoria: But the Sisters have had events there? Linda: Oh, and of course we've got a big kitchen and dining room, and we've started to go there for some events. Sister Vincentia [Roney] is over there a lot. I mean I don't know what. . . . She works with them too, so she says, "Oh, let's have it over at the Good Shepherd," because they have a great big dining room and a big kitchen, and they're very accommodating. Victoria: Well, that's nice, especially since there are no big convents to have a big meeting. Linda: That's right. Victoria: And I've seen them at your apartment, "hanging out the windows," spread out. Well, is there anything else you want to add about your life? You know, I have some other questions, but just about your own life. Linda: I'm trying to think. Victoria: Linda, it's now Sept. 4, 2012, and a lot has happened since we had the last session. Since then you've moved to the Motherhouse to live, so would you want to say anything about that? Linda: Well, it's a very easy transition, and I think we were very surprised and happy that we got such a warm welcome, walked in the dining room, and everyone stood up and clapped. Rose (Therese Wich) was very happy too, and everything is running very smoothly. And I'm very happy, I mean with the decision, and it was time to come. Victoria: We just want to finish this oral history, but I was wondering if you could give us some idea of what your dreams are or what your hopes are for the future of the Community or the Church or whatever you want to talk about. Linda: Well, I think we all want to think ahead and see what's going to happen, and I hope that I and all the Sisters can be open to the plan that God has because we don't know what is in the future, and I for one hope that I'm ready to receive whatever blessings or whatever comes next. Victoria: Thank you very much, Linda. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chavez, Sister Linda, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48 Minutes 31 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Albuquerque (N.M.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Linda Chavez, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC June 27, 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Linda Chavez by Sister Victoria Marie Forde. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chavez, Sister Linda, SC; Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/27/2011 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Linda Chavez, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC June 27, 2011 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1926-2011 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/7036c758f5250569b7a9313df4758586.jpg 249346de0e21a1c7efbede2f1d40b445 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/7f8f3f6f334dde31d704095ddfa1d06d.mp3 2900074c85f9a889bd52664e01ae58e6 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/6d59ed82cab1b9c7bf17ce8ff3eaa0d6.pdf 5c613c22494c46a15c892ed7afc07236 PDF Text Text TAPE #252 PRESENTION BY SR JUDITH METZ....10/28/96 SISTER MARIE AGNESE BONANNO Both of Sister's parents were born in Italy, were married in Italy, in fact, they had their first two children while they still in Italy. She says: “When my oldest sister was 2 years of age and my second oldest brother was 6 months old my parents decided to come to America wanting to make a better life for their family. My uncle Bill lived in Cleveland, so my father went and stayed with him until he earned enough money to send for his wife and children. He worked in a canning factory, but the heat made him sick there. Later the moved to Muncie, Indiana where my mother's brother lived. Both of my parents had gone to school in Italy and knew how to read and write.” Sister Marie Agnese, or Anna Maria, which was her baptismal name, was the 6th of 11 children in the Bonanno family. When she was growing up, the family moved to Lima, Ohio. She says, “We had a very happy home-life and enjoyed one another's company. We were poor but we were never hungry. We each had our own small and intimate friends, but I can never remember having a toy to play with because there were 5 older and 5 younger children in the family and I helped care for my younger sisters and brothers. At the direction of my parents, we would call on the elderly women living on our street, and since my father had a grocery store, we would often bring bags of fruit with us to give them. My parents were very active people , loved by their friends, and they were devout Catholics. I used to go to an early Mass every Sunday, then go to a second Mass later just I could go with my father. My parents apparently were kind of leaders in the Italian community in Lima. They used to write letters for the Italians living in Lima who wanted their loved ones backin Italy to know how they were doing in the new land. I can remember my mother writing love letters for some younger men who had left their sweethearts in Italy. Msgr Manning, the Pastor of St. Rose Church, used to ask my father to round up all the Italians in South Lima whenever an Italian priest, or a priest who spoke Italian came to the city to hear confessions or give a mission. My father was a true social worker who constantly helped others to better themselves. Mother worked hard cooking and sewing and taking care of the 11 of us children. During my youth, my father had a grocery store and also had a vegetable and fruit stand in the market house in South Lima, so I decided to go with my older sister to help wait on customers. We all attended St. Rose School in Lima taught by the Sisters of Charity. Some of the teachers were loving and kind, and from their example, especially Sister Martha Marie whom we all loved. I knew, when I was in the 6th grade that I wanted to be a Sister of Charity. I started to go to 6:30 Mass every morning and make the stations of the cross after school. When I finished my sophomore year I decided to enter, otherwise I would lose my vocation. About this time a friend of the family asked my parents for my hand in marriage. When my father told me, I expressed the fact that my only desire was to become a religious. �2 Father Williams wanted me to go to a diocesan community like the Visitation Cloistered Sisters or the Sisters of Mercy in Toledo. But, I wanted to enter the Sisters of Charity. My parents were very helpful in buying my clothes even though they seemed sad because they thought they were losing me. They purchased everything on the list and surprised me with a dollar. My mother made my Postulant outfit with the finest French serge. Because I had never been on a train, my father took me to Dennison, Ohio in May to visit my uncle. The day finally came when I was to leave my parents, brothers and sisters. My last request was that my father, brothers and sisters walk the five blocks to the train station with me. Mother could not go, which made me sad, however, I felt better when, after a block away, I returned home and kissed her goodbye again. At the station were Sister Agnese McGuire , Sister Sarah and Sister Mary Agnes and some of my best friends and neighbors. The day was July 6, 1923 and I was 17 years old.” When she entered the Community, her Mistress was Sister Flavia. “Three months after, I received the brown habit as a Novice and was named Sister Agnese, the name given to me by Mother Irenaea.” After she completed the Novitiate, she was missioned in September of 1924 to Holy Name in Cleveland. When she arrived there she was told to teach the 1st and 2nd grades. She said, “The Sisters were gracious and lovable and gave me a good welcome. For four years I taught the 1st and 2nd grade, 3rd and 4th grade, and 4th and 5th grade. And then I taught the 5th grade for five straight years. I enjoyed teaching. I was taken out of school in 1933. The Pastor wanted Sister Eugene and me to do Parish Visitation. He had recognized various situations like invalid marriages, unbaptized children, and some who had not made their First Communion or been Confirmed, and some adults who had stopped attending Sunday Mass. For six years I labored among the parishioners doing home visitations as part of the parish staff. In 1939 I was put back into the classroom teaching 8th grade for two years and was again asked to continue with parish visitations. This I did until 1943. After 19 happy,beautiful years at Holy Name, I was missioned to social work in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. The previous year, Msgr Marcellus Wagner, who was the Director of Charities in Cincinnati had expressed an interest in arranging a program to benefit underprivileged and retarded children in the Catholic Schools of the Cincinnati area. He had contacted the Mothers General of all the Communities who were serving the schools in Cincinnati asking each Community to give one Sister whose work would be to go to the Catholic Elementary Schools and consult the Principals concerning children who presented a psychological or emotional in the school. Msgr entitled this program as School Social Service. All of the Communities contributed one Sister except for one. Sister Carlotta was the Sister of Charity missioned to do that work. As they identified children who had these psychological needs they eventually became the basis for what became the Springer Institute. It was established in 1940 as a school for exceptional children. �3 Because all of the Communities were not able to respond to Monsignor's request for Sisters, he asked for the Sisters of Charity to give him an additional Sister to do this work. And, it was at that time, in July, 1943 that Sister Marie Agnese was missioned to do this social work in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. In addition to the School Social Service work, she was also assigned to do case work in the family division of Catholic Social Services throughout the Diocese. She recruited students for the School for Exceptional Children by consulting school Principals about writing psychological histories. She also worked very closely with the Principals of the schools in terms of identifying these children, and also with the Pastors in order to get the children in the right place as far as their education was concerned. She served at Catholic Charities from August, 1943 until September of 1947 at which time she was appointed Administrator of Santa Maria Institute, and the following year as Superior of the Institute. She doesn't tell us very much about her years at Santa Maria. Msgr Wagner contacted the Community because he wanted to send her to Washington, D.C. To get a Masters Degree in Social Work, but Mother Mary Regina Russell said she could not go, but would give the opportunity to another Sister. Monsignor Wagner refused. Using the experience that she had gained at Catholic Charities, she was able to carry that forward through her years at Santa Maria. So, from 1947 until 1954 she was the Superior and Director of Santa Maria Institute. She said, “There were many problems involved at Santa Maria because money was so scarce. After seven struggling but happy years, in September of 1954 I was again missioned. This time to Saint Joseph Infant and Maternity Home where I remained until 1960.” So, for those six years, she was the Director and Superior of St. Joseph Infant and Maternity Home. She says: “At the time that I went to the Infant Home there were 60 Sisters there. Thirty of them were retired school and music teachers, and the other thirty worked in the home with duties such as nurses with the care of the newborn infants, toddlers, the milk lab, and as childcare workers for the groups of children from ages 2 to 5. The children stayed there until they were transferred to St. Joseph Orphanage. Some Sisters worked as secretaries and some worked as cooks. We sometimes had over 200 children to care for at a time. About in 1958, the five year olds were sent over to the orphanage. So, from that year on, we only had newborns to four year old children. We had 45 unwed mothers at a time when I first went to the home, and never less than 30. In June of 1954, the Maternity Hospital that served not only our own unwed mothers, but the people in the neighborhood and any mother who wished to have their baby delivered there, was discontinued. After that, our girls were delivered at Good Samaritan Hospital. Since the Sisters couldn't drive at that time, John Marie and later with Sister Veneranda drove the unwed mother ready for delivery to the hospital. �4 Parents brought their daughter to the Infant Home in the 3rd or 4th month of pregnancy, and girl remained with us until they delivered. They returned to the Infant Home after delivery and stayed from 6 weeks to 3 months. They were asked to pay $125. This included medical and hospital care as well as food and shelter at the Infant Home. Later, a social worker from Catholic Charities decided that the girls from out of town would pay $150. Sister Grace Marie and Sister Eugene Marie, administrators of Good Samaritan Hospital were most understanding, so they would take nothing for the hospital bill unless the girls were able to pay. Most of the girls gave their babies up for adoption, as not even their own brothers and sisters knew they were pregnant and thought that they were away at college or visiting relatives. We were not successful in getting tutors or teachers from the Board of Education to come to the Infant Home, so we did the best we could in teaching crafts, crocheting, etc. Before I was sent to the Infant Home, the girls worked in nurseries for 8 hours a day. Since I thought they were not there for punishment, I brought their work hours down to four. Sister Veneranda, the excellent nurse in charge of this department gave them love and understanding. The nurses in training at Good Samaritan Hospital came and stayed for several months at a time, and were taught child-care from the head nurse. They lived on the first floor vacated by the senior citizens who had lived at the Infant Home for years. Our financial problems were always a source of worry as we received very little from United Appeal. We were permitted, by them, to hold a festival every July. Other sources of income were card parties and our Christmas Appeal . Many school Sisters came in the summer to help with the children, or went on begging sprees to get prizes donated for our festival. A few unusual things happened in my years, such as finding baskets with a precious newborn infant at our front door. Our girls ages ranged from 12 to 49 and came from all parts of the United States. Several times, government officials came to the Infant Home as “white slavery” was prevalent in Kentucky. They talked to the unwed mothers who were involved. One evening, about 5.00 p.m. A 49 year old woman who lives several blocks from the Infant Home came to our front door to ask for help. As she started to talk about her problem, our supper bell rang. She begged me to go to supper, and I promised to return. It was about 6:30 p.m. And she said that she had been driving all morning and passed the Infant Home about 10 times trying to decide what to do. As she passed a bridge going into Kentucky, she felt like throwing herself in the river . She was three weeks away from delivering and asked to stay. I was able to reach Mrs. McGuire, our Social Worker from Catholic Charities and Msgr Kramer, the Director who said to keep her there and help her. The Infant Home served Protestant as well as Catholic girls, girls of every race and color. One morning, a beautiful Protestant girl about 25 years of age came from Kentucky to the Infant Home. She said that when she told her parents she was three months pregnant they told her to leave and never to return. She could not think of a place to go and felt that God directed her to us. She had no money and only the clothes she was wearing. She said �5 she couldn't help the baby, and wanted to give her child up for adoption. Six months later, when she did deliver, the baby was mongoloid and became a ward of the state of Kentucky. However, one night, when her baby became seriously ill, Sister Michael Ann, the nurse on duty baptized the baby and when the baby was better, it became a ward of Catholic Charities. My story wouldn't be complete if I failed to tell you of our good fortune when a beautiful young woman came to my office in September of 1956 to ask if we had a Guild. Nancy Ilendorf was that person (NOT SURE ABOUT THE SPELLING OF HER NAME). I called Msgr Kramer at Catholic Charities and he asked me to send her to his office. He, in turn, consulted with Archbishop Alter. He said that in the 10 years he served in Cincinnati, no one had ever come to ask to do anything for any of the social service institutions in the Diocese. They were both happy for us, but not as happy as the Sisters at the Infant Home. Nancy's family and friends started by having a card party, and our first $100 and $200 were like pure gold. Many of our families, friends and relatives were our first Guild members. Sister Ellen Joseph Walsh was fortunate in hiring Nancy who worked as secretary/receptionist for about 20 years **(someone in the audience said that Nancy was still there at the time of this presentation)** Without her work and encouragement with the Guild for the past 30 years, I doubt that it would be the success that it is today. Our Infant Home loves and appreciates what the Guild has done to help the Sisters, the children and unwed mothers as well as what they give to the Infant Home.” So, she spent 6 years doing the work there at the Infant Home, and then in 1960, she was missioned to Good Samaritan Hospital in Dayton as Personnel Director. After spending a year in that Department, she was asked to open a new Social Service Department which she ran from 1961 to 1969. She was very much an advocate of the hospitals establishing social service departments. In one paper that she wrote in 1962 she writes, “These are some of the things that I think our Community should pursue in the are of social service. At present, of the seven hospitals operated by the Sisters of Charity, only 2 have Social Service Departments. At Good Samaritan Hospital in Dayton, I opened one in 1961, and Good Samaritan in Cincinnati opened its Social Service Department in 1962. These were operated by lay social workers. I feel that all of our hospitals should consider the establishment of Social Service Departments. And, since the Community has sent Sisters away to study for their Masters Degrees in Education and hospital work, they should likewise educate Sisters in Social Work.” Then she tells about when back in 1943 when she became involved in social service work for the Diocese with Catholic Social Services how she was able to do for the parents of the children involved in that program. Then she goes on to say, “I'm sure that all of our schools have some needs for a social worker who would act as a liaison between the families, the pastor, the teacher and the school principal. Our apostolate could be extended to Sisters who have not necessarily reached retirement age, but retired because they were unable to do a full day's work in school. They might be able to visit nursing homes and/or serve as Sister/Visitatrix in hospitals. I believe it would be an excellent idea also for our teachers to go �6 into the urban areas which I assume are the same in all cities.” She decided in 1969, after having served as the Director of the Social Service Department in Dayton, that she wanted to go West because she had never been there. But, in the meantime, Sister Grace Marie, who was at the Good Samaritan Hospital in Cincinnati, asked her to come there to re-organize the Department of Religion, as she called it. She did this for one year. But, finally, in 1970, she went West. She went to Penrose Hospital and she served as Information Clerk from 1970-1975. She says, “After 5 ½ years at the Information Desk, Sister Myra James asked me to work in social service, which I did until 1977 when I left there. I tore a tendon in my right leg, and I was determined not to be a burden to anyone, so I asked to retire to Mount St. Joseph. I worked in the Craft Department in Mother Margaret Hall and helped to supply the Motherhouse gift shop with items to sell. Later, I learned that St. Elizabeth's Residence was a Sister of Charity project, and so, I asked to go West. I received my letter of acceptance in late September, and went to St. Elizabeth's in 1980 and stayed until 1984 In 1984 when she returned to Cincinnati, she learned that St. Joseph's Center at the Infant Home was open. So, she decided to go out there once again. Once there, she became very active doing craft work and crocheting work and she supplied things for the Center. There isn't anything in her file about this time, but I know that her family got really involved in doing some of that work and wound up building the garages. The gift shop was renamed Bonanno. She was really active out there at the Infant Home in her later years running the thrift shop and making things to raise money for the children who were living at St. Joseph Home. By that time, Saint Joseph Home had changed its ministry from maternity home to a home for the profoundly retarded . So she spent her last years very active out at there. She died September 16, 1991 at 85. THIS NEXT SECTION CONTAINS MEMORIES FROM SOME OF THE SISTERS Sister #1: When she came to Dayton, there was no personnel department. She really organized that and she included the information about the Sisters on staff. Sister #2: Some member of her family was in the liquor business and they supplied St.Elizabeth's Residence in Colorado Springs with the best wine they had ever had. Sister #3: She was my ?? grade teacher . She was very warm and loving, and I think she was like Sister Anne Hermine, if it wasn't written down you didn't have to worry about it. END OF THE TAPE �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Metz, Sister Judith, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 31 Minutes 45 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Cleveland (Ohio) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Presentation on Sister Marie Agnese Bonanno, SC by Sister Judith Metz, SC October 28, 1996 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Community-based social services -- History Description An account of the resource A presentation on the life and ministerial works of Sister Marie Agnese Bonanno that was researched and presented by Congregational Archivist and Historian Sister Judith Metz. The program ends with Sisters in the audience sharing some of their remembrances of Sister Marie Agnese. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonanno, Sister Marie Agnese, SC; Metz, Sister Judith, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/28/1996 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Delisle, Sister Lorraine, SC (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Presentation on Sister Marie Agnese Bonanno, SC by Sister Judith Metz, SC October 28, 1996 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1906-1991 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Social Service https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/a8452564525adc7b0d408a6941837e4f.jpg bcb5735a4f5d4c1baddb3097a20a26b3 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/6d485eb5496cea21148ff12b5ff59431.mp3 aa3a10940e2393e5acde070a73b2cc68 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/2fd27753a250b23dcc24309a4db24244.pdf 06293fd201cf51d0aa60af1fd90296c9 PDF Text Text 1 Sister Maryland Anderson – Oral History It is April 24, 2014, and I [S. Andrea Koverman] am here talking with Sister Maryland Anderson [in Mother Margaret Hall where Maryland is recuperating]. Maryland: Maryland T. It is listed in the book. Andrea: What is the T. for? Maryland: Theresa Andrea: Is that your given name or your religious name? Maryland: Theresa is my confirmation name, after Theresa of the Little Flower. Andrea: So it that Tere… Maryland: Theresa Andrea: You mentioned Dayton before. I grew up in Dayton. Maryland: I lived there. Andrea: What part? Maryland: On Sherwood Drive, right behind Good Samaritan Hospital. In the Trotwood area sort of. Andrea: I was on the Bellbrook, Centerville line. I went to Incarnation in Centerville and then Alter High School. Maryland: Oh yeah, Alter. Centerville is a good shopping area. Andrea: It has grown into a big shopping area. Maryland: Yes, it has. I use the Greene (Town Center) now. It is very nice. Andrea: I like to be outside. Maryland: That is all I need. I don’t do a lot of shopping. Andrea: Okay. To start with you can tell me anything you want to, whether I have a question, if it doesn’t address it, whatever you feel like you want to include. We could start with maybe you telling me what your life was like before you entered. What is your family background and where are you from. Maryland: I am from Florida, born close to Jacksonville. I grew up in St. Augustine. I went to a girls’ academy there because it was during the war, and my parents traveled. My dad was an engineer and they travelled, so they put us in that school. My parents were not Catholic. In fact, my daddy did not like Catholics. He was Swedish, born in Stockholm, and he was a Swedish engineer-trained. He thought that the Sisters were the only people in the United States that could really educate people. So he overcame his prejudice because he wanted me to have a good education. And I think he was very right on that. So then I went to college. I got my bachelor’s degree at Florida State, my master’s degree at Louisiana State, and my Ph.D. from Notre Dame. The Notre Dame. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �2 Andrea: The Notre Dame. And what are your degrees in? Maryland: My bachelor’s degree is Fine Arts I think... No, actually Science. And let’s see, my master’s degree is master of Science, and my Ph.D. is in anthropology and that kind of stuff which I enjoy very much. I taught at Notre Dame, and I also taught at the Mount. I came to the Community a little late in life because I had lived and worked a lot before I came in. And then I met the Sisters of Charity at Notre Dame and became very intrigued by what they had to…, what their dedication to the Lord and the work of the Community was. And it spoke to me because they were not cloistered and shut away. They worked in the real world, and that appealed to me a great deal. And so I became very interested in them, and I had Sisters that added to that influence. And then I went out West to work with the Sisters again, and I was at El Pomar which was a retreat place we had there. It was lovely. And I worked there at a hospital, one we owned. At that time we ran our hospitals. We had not divested. And so that sort of did it. Along the way I decided, "Maybe I will do this." So I prayed a lot about it, thought about it, and finally made up my mind. Well, I think they don’t accept people… I was near 50 when I did it, and I don’t think they take people of that age any more. Andrea: Well, actually, that is about how old I am. Well, I just turned 50 on March 28th. So I started pre-entrance when I was 44. Maryland: Did you? Are you planning on entering? Andrea: Yes, I am a Novice. Maryland: Oh, I don’t think that registered with me. Andrea: Oh I am sorry. Yes, I am a Novice. Maryland: Well, congratulations. Andrea: Thank you. Maryland: Who is your Novice Director? Andrea: Donna Steffen. Maryland: I don’t know her very well, but I know who she is. Andrea: We live in the back of St. Joseph Home. And there is another Novice, Tracy Kemme. Maryland: I have heard her name from someone. We lived in Bayley Place when I was there. Betty Finn was our Novice Director, and we lived in the back of Bayley. Andrea: That is where we live. Which bedroom was yours? Maryland: I think I was on the second floor. I don’t remember, but it was close to the end. And we got into a lot of mischief. We gave Betty a little fit. Betty was… There was an older Sister who is still with us, Sister…I know her name as well as I know my own. I ©Sisters of Charity Archives �3 just haven’t called it in a long time. She was the older Sister in the house, and she and Betty were good friends. Andrea: Annina Morgan? Maryland: Yes, Annina. Betty used to tell Annina, "You keep out of the business of the Novices. That is my job." So that was rather… I had a very short… I did my novitiate very quickly. Well, I did almost a year. And then did one year… the next step, and then I took my first vows. And I did my final vows very quickly too. Because by this time in life, I knew what was going on. I wasn’t just a young person trying to decide about various things. I have been very happy as a Sister of Charity. I found it very supportive and I tried to be very true to our mission in what we do. And I do still, although I am retired now. I still do help people with grants, but they have to be 501C3 which means they are tax exempt. And I am working primarily with women and children who are poor and dependent. Andrea: That is great. Maryland: And that is very challenging to me because writing grants is sort of like hunting for Easter eggs. You kind of dig around and see what you can come up with. It is getting harder as finances have tightened. Philanthropic money is not as available as it used to be. But you can still get some. You really have to work at it. I am lucky in that I have been doing it so long that my name is known to some of them that I go to. So they know that if I am bringing them a request that it fits their guidelines and that I have come to the right group of people. That is where a lot of people make their mistake. They go to Foundations that don’t support what they are asking for. And there is nothing wrong with their mission and what they want to do; they just go to the wrong source. So you know that is just a learning process. I have taught some courses on grant writing. Andrea: Oh, that is good. I did some of that as a teacher. Maryland: Oh, did you? Andrea: It was called 21st Century Grants, and we wrote that and got it. Maryland: I have got copies of ones that I have written at home. I have books of them. Andrea: That is great because then you can use them. So when you went to…,you said you went to El Pomar to work. Were you a nurse or what were you doing? Maryland: I really went there to work in a medical program. I worked with the National Cancer Institute out of Washington, you know, the big National Cancer Institute of the Institutes, and I set up a cancer program there…cancer information, and it is big now. It has taken over the whole…that area of Colorado, and we did it with, as I say, with federal money. We trained people to be knowledgeable in cancer, so that callers who had been recently diagnosed or people who were just worried about it or wanted knowledge about prevention.… These people were trained to answer questions. But we had two oncologists that worked with us who were really the head of the program medically, and when we had questions that required a doctor’s answer which we avoided, when we did we would go to our cancer doctors, our oncologists. And one of them that was my boss his name was Anderson too. And they thought we were ©Sisters of Charity Archives �4 married. Oh no. Paul Anderson was his name. So we built that program up and it became very big and very important. So that is what kind of took me out West and tied me there. Andrea: Does it have a name…the Cancer Institute you started? Maryland: It was Cancer Information Services of Colorado at that time. Now it is Cancer Information Services of the Western Front, I think they call it. It covers all of that area. So it just broadened and grew and grew. It was very challenging. We had Elisabeth Kubler-Ross come and speak. And then I wanted to do some ads, and I knew a woman who knew Ann B. Davis real well. Do you know who Ann B. Davis is? Andrea: No. Maryland: She played on that program the Brady Bunch. She was the maid. Andrea: Flo…not Flo. Maryland: Ann B. Davis was her name. But what was she on the program? Andrea: I am trying to remember. I can’t think of it. Maryland: She had been on two different TV programs. The earlier one she was a little…kind of funny. Well, anyway, through this friend that got us together, I ended up… At the time I had a little red pickup truck because I had a camper…I wasn’t in the Community then, and I liked to camp a lot. So I went to pick her up in my truck, and we just had the best ole time. And she came.We had her set up in a nice place to stay, and we had a big luncheon and had her there. And people came to meet he,r and we did a PSA, Public Service Ad, and she did… We set up a kitchen and got the cauliflower and all of these nice beautiful vegetables, and when people realized we were going to do an ad people give them to you. So we had a beautiful set up for her to work with when they did the filming of the ad. And then the Cancer Information Service at the federal level wanted to use it, but they had a control over it, so it could only be used in our particular area of the country. Those Hollywood people hang on to things. So that was a good experience. I enjoyed that very much. People were very dedicated to that service. You know, cancer is something that concerns us all. No doubt that we encouraged a lot of people to have checkups. And you know I never realized the number of men…You don’t realize they need to do breast exams until we had that program years ago, and I thought, you know guys are supposed to do this too, and they don’t know it. Well, it is smaller in percentage certainly than women, but it is just as bad. Andrea: Yeah, they do have it. Maryland: So that was a big part of my coming into…when I first came in…I taught at Notre Dame, and I taught at the Mount as I said. I have been in academic missions most of my life. I did do some time in the Navy and the Medical Service Corp. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �5 Andrea: Oh, you did? Well, can you start from when you grew up in Florida, and you told me where you went to school, but when did you get out? Was the first place you went El Pomar after? Maryland: For the Community? Andrea: No, like before you entered the Community what was your. . . ? Maryland: El Pomar was not in my life at the time. Andrea: I know you have already covered this quickly, but from high school you went to… Maryland: From high school I went to college. Andrea: Yeah, but… Maryland: I worked at different kinds of jobs that young people do. I got jobs to help support me through my education. I was a soda jerk for a while. I think I was a sophomore or freshman in high school, and we were right down the street from a hospital. We had student nurses in there, and they are always broke, and I got fired for giving away ice cream. Andrea: Oh, no. Maryland: I would give them two or three scoops of ice cream and only charge them for one of two. That was the only time in my life that I ever got fired from my job. But I did that kind of stuff out of high school, worked at different kinds of jobs and worked toward going to school. My parents were not poor, but I was one of these people who wanted to do it myself. My daddy said, "If you get through the first four years I will help you with the rest of it." And I did the first four years in three years, and when he wanted to help me I said, "I am going to do it myself." So I did. He was, as I said, a Swede. He was an engineer at that time, and a lot of Swedes migrated to America to become engineers, and we were working on things like Boulder Dam and stuff like that. So it was a good haven for well-trained engineers, and he came. And part of his time here was when the Depression was just starting out. I was born in ’30 which was the beginning of the Depression, and he became a chef at a New York restaurant, Luchalls [?], it was a famous restaurant, for a while because there was no work for engineers. But he met my mom in Chicago, and they married, and then I came along… Andrea: And they ended up in Florida somehow. Maryland. Yes. Well, my mother was from Terre Haute, Indiana, and they liked Florida. They moved there, and then he had a big business after that. Andrea: Do you have siblings? Maryland: I have half brothers and a half sister. My mother was married to their father, and he was a lawyer, and he was killed by a man that he sent to prison. He had him sent to prison, and when he got out he shot him. So that was the end of that first marriage, and then she met my father, and they married. So I had two half brothers and ©Sisters of Charity Archives �6 a half sister. The oldest half brother died in the war, and my other brother died some years later of a heart attack. And my sister and I were very close, but she died about five years ago. So that was the last of my… Now I have nieces and nephews and grandnieces and grandnephews, and they are all in Florida, and we stay very much in touch. They tell me I am insane to live in Ohio. Andrea: I am sure because they are in Florida. Maryland: They are right. Andrea: Did you say you grew up in Fort Lauderdale? Maryland: No. I grew up pretty much around Jacksonville. Andrea: So are you a surfer girl…a beach girl? Maryland: Oh yeah. But I am so light skinned, I had to really limit my exposure to the sun. Thank God I did because in those days we didn’t realize how much melanoma damage to the skin was permanent. But it hurt me too bad. I turned red and blistered. I never tanned. I bet you tanned. You have got good color for it. Andrea: Yeah. I lived in South Carolina for 22 years though. Maryland: What part? Andrea: Beaufort. It is the same county as Hilton Head. Maryland: Oh yeah. I know where Hilton Head is. Andrea: Everyone knows that. So it is the southern tip. About 40 minutes from the Georgia border. Yes. I stay a little bit yellow now. I don’t get tan. Maryland: You know, I like to go down to that part of the country during peach season. People up here don’t know what a good peach is…or what good seafood is. Andrea: Oh I know. I was going to say the shrimp. I miss the shrimp so bad, and the crab. Maryland: This friend of mine…we grew up together, we were sort of like sisters. We are a select family rather than a born family. And every time she comes up to visit me, she brings me a big mess of shrimp. You know, ninety-five cents, a dollar, a dollar-anda-half pound of jumbos. And I figure, I told her you pay $15 a pound for these little doodads. Andrea: So from college did you enter the Navy? Maryland: Yeah, I went in the Navy when I got out of College, and I enjoyed that very much. It was a good experience. There were some things about it that were bad because I saw little kids that got shot and hurt. In the hospital ship you take in a lot of people. Even though we were a big white hospital ship with a big red cross on it they would still drop bombs at the end of the ship. And it was clearly marked a hospital. You know a big white ship with a red cross on it is not hard to miss. So we had some of that. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �7 We had a crew of about 840, and we had major operating rooms and all of that. It was just a hospital floating, treating people that needed it. Andrea: What did you do on the hospital ship? Maryland: Really for that particular business, I was trained by the Navy for it, I was a med tech. A medical technologist. I would cross type and cross match blood and do blood counts and stuff like that. But I went through what they call a hospital core school in the Navy. And if we were in Dayton I could show you… Oh, you don’t need to see all of that … It shows you how you graduated from this to this to this, and I worked my way up till I got to go to Washington and do…which at that time was very high on guard…a training in a bone and eye bank because at that time was really just getting started. So that was interesting to me. Just to collapse all of that that was a part of my experience as I went through. Andrea: What made you join the Navy? The war? Maryland: Well, my family. My brothers and everybody were in the service, and I just felt like I owed my country a debt. Andrea: That is unusual for a woman to feel that way at that time. Maryland: I knew some women that felt that same way. And then I got a commission which made my life very pleasant. I became a lieutenant commander. But it was…I met nice people. There was none of this harassment that people talk about. That must be the later military for women because in those days if you got a little scrambled egg on your pot, and anybody messes with you, they are dead meat. But I never met any men that were disrespectful. I did date a guy when I was in the Navy that I liked a lot. Bill Einsford was his name. You know it was just a good part of my life. I enjoyed it. Andrea: That was a different time. People treated people differently. Maryland: I think women at that time perhaps went in it for a different set of motives. I don’t know that that is true. I never researched it in theory code. I think some of the younger people now maybe they are husband hunting, or career hunting. Or just looking for a place to anchor. Andrea: That might be their only opportunity. A lot of them. Maryland: And maybe it is their path to more education. I don’t think nowadays they have the GI Bill. I did. I had some GI Bill benefits. That is what I used at Notre Dame. For every month you are in, you got so much money when you went to college. Andrea: I think they still do that. Because I know that is the reason a lot of people enter. Maryland: Good because young people deserve it. This business now is a whole lot different now. I hate to see our young people going to Afghanistan. I want to get them out of there. Andrea: So how long were you in the Navy? Maryland: About five years, and I stayed in the reserves. And I was finishing my master's degree, and one of the scrimmages came along, and I forget now what it even was, but I got this notice that they were going to put me back on active duty. ”Dear God, ©Sisters of Charity Archives �8 if you just let me get out of this, I will get out of the Navy altogether." And I did. I got out. I didn’t want to interrupt my education at that point. So I made it through and got out. Andrea: Do you remember what year that was? Maryland: Was that Korea? It could have been because I was in part of Korea. What scrimmage came before Korea? There was so many of those little ones. I don’t remember. Andrea: Well, that is okay. So you got out of the Navy and finished up your master's degree? Maryland: Yes I finished my master's and my Ph.D. Andrea: Oh, you went right through? Maryland: No. I took time off in between each degree to make money. I got a scholarship for most all of my colleges, so I was not building up a lot of debt which helped. And then when I got my Ph.D. I had three very good offers for total scholarships. And although I am a Catholic at that time, I had never attended a Catholic college. So when Notre Dame offered me a good deal, and they did, I went to Notre Dame because I loved Notre Dame, Number One. Andrea: That would be hard to turn down, a scholarship to Notre Dame. Maryland: It sure turned me on to football. In football season people know not to call me when Notre Dame is playing. Andrea: That is fun, a fun school to cheer for. It has lots of fans outside of its own alumni even. Maryland: Yeah, the underground alumni of Notre Dame which are people who have never gone to Notre Dame, but they are dedicated fans. And what’s his name was there the year I was…while I was there. Rudy. I did not know him, but he was there when I was there because I was there…I think I was teaching in 1975. But then he went, and five of his brothers followed pursuit. And he worked very hard to survive at Notre Dame. They started him off in a little community college across the road to see if he could build up his grades. That was an interesting story. I knew Father Hesburgh which was a big honor. He is quite a man. Very charismatic. Andrea: I don’t know who that is. Maryland: Hesburgh. He is the most famous president of Notre Dame that ever existed. And he became very important in world peace and in big committees that controlled the city that was about important political issues. Hesburgh was one of our big, big leaders…religious leaders. But he was respected as a politician and a leader, not just as a Catholic priest or a priest of any kind. So my degree has his name on it which I am honored to have. Andrea: So after you got your Master’s or your Ph.D. where did you head? Maryland: I did mostly teaching after that. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �9 Andrea: At Notre Dame? Maryland: Yeah, I taught at…Well, I left Notre Dame for a while because they are not inclined to inbreed. If you graduated from there, they want you to go away for a while and get seasoned. Well I did. I went to… Well, let’s see, where did I go? I can’t remember now. But wherever I was, a friend of mine committed suicide. And the guy that was the head of the department, Andy Wreikiert, who was a friend of mine, called me and asked me if it would be possible for me to come and pick up where he left off. They wanted somebody who could work with the students who could face it. His suicide blew my mind. Well anyway, I did go back, and I taught, and I ended up that time staying there for quite a while. In the meantime I am getting involved with the Sisters of Charity at Notre Dame, and so I kept getting deeper into that. And there was a Sister, I doubt that you know her, that I ended up working with. We were actually a team, employed at Notre Dame…Sister Maria Garlock. And she was the head of the graduate women’s living quarters…rooms and so on. It was a little place that had little apartments and little houses. And so she hired me to be her assistant which helped me because I was going through getting my degree. So that helped me, and that is how I began to get involved with the Charities. Andrea: So she was the one that kind of brought you… Maryland: She was a walking saint if there ever was one. I never in my life heard one word against her. And that is unusual, especially with catty women religious groups. But Maria was just a fabulous human being. Unfortunately, she died of Alzheimer’s. And it runs in her family. She had another sister who had it, two brothers. Andrea: Wow. That is too bad. So were you about the same age? Maryland: Yeah, I think Maria was about four or five years older than me…three or four or something like that, but I became very close with her family, and her nephew and I are still good friends. He comes to my house. He works for Channel 9 in Dayton. He will come sometimes when he is on that side of town doing a story and park that big van out there, and my neighbors would call and say what is going on with Channel 9? I have nice neighbors in Dayton. We have a sort of a little community there. There are Sisters in the houses all along—[Sherwood Drive],…and they are little houses. You would be hard pressed to live with-- You might get by with two if you are good friends. But you couldn’t get beyond that because they are just little houses. And they like to rent to the Sisters because we pay our rent, and we take care of the property. So we have what we call the Sherwood Community, Sherwood Drive Community. And it is just about… Let’s see…Donna [Collins] is a Sister of Charity, then my real close friends, Sister Dee, Fritz and Phyllis. They are a different community, but they are very special people to us. And then there is me, and there is a nifty house that the squirrels live in. This doctor, well, he owns, and he won’t rent it, but the squirrels live in it. They don’t bother me. And then there is another Sister. I doubt that you would know her name or I would call it…Corrine Schmidt, you don’t know her do you? Terry Dery… Andrea: I do know that name. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �10 Maryland: Terry is a [Dayton] councilor, so you might know her. Terry Dery and. . . Andrea: Is that where Katie Hoelscher and Fran [Flynn]. . . ? Maryland: Yes. Katie. Isn’t she here right now getting therapy? Andrea: Yes, she has moved here. She is on the Third Floor Respite. Maryland: I see her every now and then when I come for physical therapy. Katie is an absolutely wonderful lady. Andrea: Yeah, I love Katie: Maryland: It grieves me that… You know she broke those legs a long time ago. Andrea: I didn’t realize that she had done that. She just had a back surgery procedure, and she is doing something else. Maryland: She fell and broke both of those legs years ago, and that was the beginning of problems for her. But she is… I just have the deepest respect and liking for her. Andrea: She was the principal at Alter. Maryland: Oh yeah, she was, wasn’t she? Let’s see…you knew Fran Flynn then. I was grieved at her death. She suffered some though before. Andrea: Yeah, a long time. That was so sad. Maryland: She was a gift to the Community. All and all, I think we have a pretty marvelous group of women. Andrea: I am certainly impressed with the more I learn and the more Sisters I get to know. It is amazing. Maryland: Yes, the kindness and the caring. They are genuinely women of God. Andrea: They really are. The service that this group of women has done from the beginning is just amazing. Maryland: I am glad your experience with the Charities has been so good too. Andrea: Well I have relatives that I... Maryland: …that are in the Community? Andrea: Kateri Koverman is my second cousin. Maryland: Kateri is a buddy of mine. Andrea: Is she? Maryland: Yeah. Andrea: She is my second cousin. And Sister Mary Joseph…she died in 2010…Koverman…she was a teacher. Maryland: I might need to see her face to remember her. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �11 Andrea: Then I had two great aunts…when I was a little girl...Mary Walburga and Mary Naomi. Maryland: No, I knew Mary Naomi’s name. Well, how did we miss you? Andrea: Well, here I am now. Better late than never. Maryland: Well, you are not late. Andrea: No, I don’t think so comparatively speaking. Maryland: In the old days they used to call it a delayed vocation. I called it a little later call from the Lord. Andrea: That is a good way to say it. I would say I am a late bloomer. I took the long way home. Maryland: The Lord just waited a while to give me a full call, but he has been telling me all along, "Come on, come on." Andrea: I had some other things to do first I guess. Maryland: You know. I really kind of felt that way. I didn’t want to do it. I said, "Not me, Lord. I am not for that kind of life," you know, and I just went on for a few years and was pulled back and forth, and finally, whatever you want to call it, an opening or something, I just thought I have to do this. I can’t fight it any longer. Andrea: Yeah, that is kind of how I felt. And, you know, you try to figure it out, but you are not going to know until you try. And I finally said, "I will go try," and you just keep moving along. Maryland: And if you start sounding like "Oh, I have been called," people think you are a nut of some sort. But the call is in the heart, in here. Andrea: Yeah, and it is not a voice. Maryland: No. It is just, like what you said. This is what you do. And it is not a big awakening or trumpets don’t play. Andrea: Right. I noticed, and I can’t remember who I was talking to, but I said something about when I enter instead of if I enter. And someone said, "Did you hear what you just said?" Like part of me had already decided. Maryland: The decision was there. The Lord has an interesting way of giving us his messages. I found out it is all right to be mad at God. He can handle it. And I say when you get really mad you want to tell the Lord. Tell him you are fed up with this. Andrea: Yeah. There is plenty of reason to get angry in this world. Maryland: And the Lord can handle , so take it to him. Andrea: Right. Okay. So your friend Sister Maria Garlock introduced you to the Community. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �12 Maryland: Well, when I ended up being her assistant director of the women’s housing, then that is when I met… Maria introduced me to people I doubt you know, John Miriam Jones. You know her? Andrea: Oh yeah. Maryland: Then the one out West. The other Sister. Andrea: Is she still out there? Maryland: Yes. She lives with Gasdorf. I need my directory. That’s what I need to keep my mind… Andrea: The little blue one? Maryland: Yeah, that one. I have been out of touch with these people so long I don’t recall their name. Now Annina you know. Annina is a good friend of mine. Andrea: Annina is a wonderful person. Maryland: Annina is going to outlive God. Andrea: Isn’t she amazing? Maryland: She is amazing. And she is no dull gal either. Andrea: Oh my gosh, she doesn’t forget anything. She is amazing. Maryland: Here is Kateri. Kateri Maureen Koverman. She is in 319 here. Did you know that? Andrea: Yeah. I am on the page in front. I was looking to see if my name was on there, and I am right there. Maryland: Oh, okay. Let me see your pen. So you actually have the Koverman name. Andrea: Yes. Maryland: You know Kateri did some wonderful things. Andrea: Yes, she is inspirational. Maryland: Isn’t she the one that did the [Vietnam baby] airlift? I mean, that is historical. You know the last time I saw her though, which has been maybe three years, I was a little worried about her. She didn’t look so good. Andrea: She had just had a stroke. Maryland: Yes, she did. She had that stroke. Is she holding her own? Andrea: Well, she actually just had another one about four or five months ago. But she moved her Them Bones Veteran Community in the Motherhouse now, so she is starting to get back into it. So she is doing okay. Maryland: She has done such wonderful things you know. I hate to hear that she is having… Well, that is part of getting old you know, just keep crashing and crashing. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �13 Andrea: I am trying to think of the other Sisters I know from the West. Linda Chavez is one. Maryland: Yeah. I know Linda very well. This Sister's name…she was regional for…she was head of the Community when I was out West and decided to join the Sisters of Charity. She was the one I went to talk about it with. And I just love her dearly. She steps back from…she doesn’t want to be in the limelight… Jane Grosheider and this other friend of Grosheider’s. She is not a person I am terribly crazy about, the other one, so I don’t remember her name. Andrea: Okay. So you had to leave Notre Dame to become a Novice? Maryland: Yeah, that is when I got all turned on to it. Really, it just came like taking a breath. You know it was just that easy and natural to me. Andrea: That is really nice. Maryland: And it was you know…because when I came in I was pretty well off financially. And Betty Finn and Annina used to say to me, "Well, how is it going to feel not to have any money?" And I said, "Well, I think I will make it." So they made me the treasurer and shopper of Bayley, and I had to do…we all had a stint at it. But I did it, and they said, "Now you know you are used to having all the money you want to have and everything," but by the end of the month they were begging for treats. I said, "That doesn’t go in the budget," and Betty said, "You could be a little looser Andy." Then she said, "You know, when I was going in and I was used to having money and everything," and I said, "Betty, I had money because I kept a hand on it." Andrea: Yeah right. Not because you spent everything. Maryland: So that was kind of a funny story. But that is really the sum and substance of my story. Andrea: That sums up your story? Maryland: Yeah. I think that tells my story. What more is there to say? How much can you talk about yourself? Andrea: I know it is hard to talk about yourself. Well, if you can’t think of anything else you would like to add. . . Maryland: I am just an ordinary old Sister of Charity. I never wanted leadership in the Community. I never put myself in position to be running for it. If people asked me, I would say no because by that time I just didn’t want that. I just wanted to be me. I had enough leadership in my younger life that I didn’t have any ambitions to run the world. Andrea: Yeah, that is true. You did. Maryland: Although I admire the women who have been doing that for us. We have had some noble leaders, some great leaders. Andrea: Well, did you go back into teaching after you became a Sister of Charity? Maryland: Yeah. I did. I taught over at our College for several years, and then I got out of that teaching and opened up an office of grant resources for the Community to see if ©Sisters of Charity Archives �14 we could get some Sisters to go through it, and we could get them some grants, and it really didn’t work out very well. For one thing they kind of…they didn’t really know what to do with it. Andrea: I think they have probably gotten better at that now or some of them, some of the agencies. Maryland: I mean they didn’t know what to do with an offer for help. You know, they were just used to doing it on their own. And in those days they weren’t doing all that good, but they are now. I mean they are much better at it. They got more sophisticated with it. As your needs…like the Seton Family Center, I started out helping her, and she appreciated the help. But she built that thing on her own efforts. And we have a lot of Sisters that have done that, you know. They are gusty ladies, and they get out there, and they want to do something, and they do it. Andrea: Yeah, it is great. How did you end up in Dayton? Maryland: How did I end up in Dayton? Oh, I was teaching at the Mount, and Sister Maria and I shared one of the Community apartments on Rapid Run, and we were both at the College. When Sister Maria… Jean Patrice [Harrington] called Sister Maria and asked her to come from the West and work at the College, and Maria said okay she would. We talked about it, and I said, "Okay if that is what is going to be a good ministry for you, take it." And then about a week later after Maria said she would. Jean Patrice called me and asked me if I would teach at the Mount. So I went to the Mount when Maria did, and we lived in that… It was the first apartment building the Community ever bought. Maryanna Coyle and I went looking together. And we took one of those apartments in one of the buildings, and we lived there and taught at the College for a good while. And then Maria was asked to go to Dayton, and not long after that I was invited to Dayton, and so we got a house that the [Good Samaritan] Hospital owned and lived in it. Andrea: You got invited to Dayton to do what? Maryland: Just to…what did I do? I had another job. It wasn’t in the Community. God, I don’t remember. It was starting some program for something…the Hubert Foundation. I was doing some work with the Hubert Foundation. Joann, Hubert’s wife, is [not] a comember of our Community. Ed Hubert . . .; she is a very…she graduated from the Mount, and she was a student of mine and a lovely lady; he is very rich, so he can move in and out of circles. I have gotten money out of him for programs. Andrea: Well, that is good. Maryland: Yeah. Never look a gift horse in the mouth. Andrea: So you have been in Dayton ever since? Maryland: Pretty much so. I like Dayton very much. I don’t like Cincinnati. Andrea: Really? Why not? Maryland: I just never have liked Cincinnati. It is a big dirty city to me. East hates West, and they have got all of this politics going on. Get over it, honey. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �15 Andrea: Yeah. It took me a long time to figure out what people were even talking about the East and West. Maryland: Yeah, and you know Delhi kind of died. I taught at the College, and I lived right up the hill from the College at those apartments on…they kind of sit back…let me see who lives there. Andrea: Not the Rapid Run ones? Maryland: Yeah. Up off of Rapid Run [Anderson Ferry].Ruth and Victoria live there. Andrea: And I think Joyce Richter. Maryland: Does Joyce live there? She could. Andrea: The Rapid Run apartments? Maryland: I lived there a couple of times really as I came in and out, but Ruth and Victoria moved about a year-and-a-half ago to get a lower apartment. Ruth has a little problem with her legs as she is aging. Okay. They don’t name it here. It is on Anderson Ferry Road. Andrea: Oh, okay. I think I know what you are talking about. Maryland: That apartment. You hit like you are going to River Road, and it cuts off up in there. Yeah, I lived there for a while in one of those apartments on the backside. That is when I was at the College. Andrea: Well, thank you very much for sharing your story with me. Maryland: There is nothing exciting about my story. It is just an ordinary every day run of the mill kind. Andrea: An ordinary Sister of Charity is an extraordinary kind of a person most likely. That is generally what I am finding out. Maryland: Well, I am awfully glad. When are you going to…when is your next thing occurring? Andrea: My next step you mean? Maryland: Yes. Andrea: Well my………. (end of tape) [apostolic novitiate year is next. ©Sisters of Charity Archives �16 ©Sisters of Charity Archives � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anderson, Sister Maryland, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Koverman, Sister Andrea, SC Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 49 Minutes 44 Seconds Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Dayton (Ohio) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Maryland Anderson, SC Interviewed by Sister Andrea Koverman, SC April 14, 2014 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Maryland Anderson by Sister Andrea Koverman. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anderson, Sister Maryland, SC; Koverman, Sister Andrea, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/14/2014 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Harvey, Jan (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Maryland Anderson, SC Interviewed by Sister Andrea Koverman, SC April 14, 2014 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1983-2014 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Education Sister Veterans Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/e8c59061e3e0fa2ae5af45cc6ba3d2e7.jpg 361b88b60b969cfccc607917b91908c7 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/58e4c8a44332fa5db0fae282c3e00b66.mp3 0e020638c3d727517d0cba4918b3c0c8 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/045f7aa37546c9397a36f69f0c18b3df.mp3 727129a4d3c3943936de32d8e383edef https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/762e825369eb9648027b19035211a85f.mp3 804b0be7f0608d179982c55921a7dc2d https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/26c192ca65c5f2d784d38c9a712f6df5.pdf 183230482c4e0430f945b94bb92fe1ca PDF Text Text 1 · TOH 31 - 1 Sr. Alexine Beam This interview is being conducted as part of the Oral History Program of the Sisters of Charity at Seton Hill. The interviewee is Sister M. Alexine Beam. The interview is being conducted by Sister Marie Corona Miller at Greensburg Faculty House. The date is January twenty-ninth, nineteen eighty-seven. SMCM: Good morning Sr. Alexine! I'm happy to be with you today to talk about your personal history and your history as a Sister of Charity. Would you like to tell us some things? SAB: I was born in Allegheny General Hospital on February twentieth, nineteen seven, the oldest of three children. I have a sister, Hilda, who is thirteen months younger, and a brother, William, who is three years younger. My father was not a Catholic, so I was raised in a semi-Catholic, Lutheran environment. My mother ruled our religion. My father's people were definitely Lutheran. I remember my father coming home one time with papers to become a Mason. At that time, Masons were very hostile toward the Catholic religion. I was only about four years old, but I remember them talking in the living room. We had a big coal fire in the living room. They were talking so seriously. Being curious, I needed warmed up in there. He had a paper in his hand, and he said: "Kitty, (that's what he called my mother), my brothers are all Masons, and I'd like to join." She took the paper and she said: "George Beam, select now between me or the Masons. You know they have no love for my religion." He walked over to the coal fire and threw the paper in. SAB: There was no Catholic School in Crafton at the time when we moved there. My sister, brother, and I had to go to the public school for the frrst couple of years. St. Philip's was built in nineteen sixteen, but my Dad died that year. I was only nine years old. My mother had three of us to raise. My grandfather really raised us. SMCM: Was that your father's father? SAB No, it was my mother's father. My father's people were not very close. I wouldn't say that they didn't love us. In those days, where there were two religions, they were diametrically opposed to one another. His father was wonderful. He loved us, and we loved him. His mother did not like my mother at all. There was no love lost between them. Even when my Dad died, they didn't come down to our home. In those days, the body was brought to the home, not the funeral home. His parents did not come the night before the funeral. I want to tell something very interesting. I was only nine years old. My Aunt Annie came and kept house for us while my mother was at the hospital. A call came late (couldn't determine when as there was a loud crashing sound) that my Dad was dying, so my mother and my Aunt Annie went to the hospital, but when they got there, he was already dead. They were going to bring his body home that evening about four o'clock. Father Kelty came up to the house. He went up and sat beside my mother, who was in bed, as she had been up all night. They brought Dad's body home. Father Kelty took me by one hand and put his arm around my mother. I never forgot that man. He stayed with her until she cried out completely. SMCM: Was Father Kelty pastor at St. Philip's at that time? �2 SAB: Yes, he was. Then we went to St. Philip's School. My mother had us transferred from the public school to St. Philip's. I had some marvelous teachers. I had Sister Hyacinthe Ryan, who was an absolute perfect teacher. Then there was Sister M. Adele McCullough, Sister Francis de Sales Connelly II, Sister M. Dorothy Hess, Sister Generosa, and Sister Sara Fidelis Boyle was the eighth grade teacher. I went to St. James High School. I switched from the Academic to Commercial. I didn't like the Commercial Course. I went to the first day ofthe "commercial", but it was not for me. In going home, I just stayed on the streetcar, and went all the way home to Father K elty. I told him I didn't know what I was going to do because I didn't want Commercial work. He said to me: "Well, are you sure you want to become a Sister?" I was surprised he even thought I was thinking about it. So, he sent me over to Sister M. Aquinas O'Brien, who was the Sister Servant. She took me over and talked to me. She took me to Seton Hill and I entered November first, nineteen twenty-three. I had not finished High School, but did complete it at the Academy. Sister Theodosia Murtha and Sister Anne Elizabeth Regan were also at the Academy. There were others, but I've forgotten their names. SMCM: Who entered with you? SAB: Sister Alberta Sweeney entered with me. We got the habit on the second ofFebruary. The following September, both ofus were sent to St. Benedict's to teach. I was very frightened, as I was just seventeen at the time. Sister Charlotte Judge taught the sixth or eighth grade. She came down to my classroom once or twice everyday to show me how to teach. We had on the job training. She showed me how to teach Reading and Arithmetic. SMCM: What grade was that? SAB: It was First Grade. We were Novices. Sister M. Clarissa Cunningham was there too. In those days, we walked to school. SMCM: From Seton Hill? SAB: Yes, from Seton Hill. We walked every day. The only time we didn't walk was ifit was raining too hard. SMCM: How long did it take you to walk to school? SAB: It took about fifteen minutes, except when there was snow. Being young people, we took our time in the snow, and ofcourse, we were wet when we got there. We did get a ride home from school everyday. SAB: Then I was sent to Sharpsburg. SMCM: What was the name ofthe parish? SAB: It was St. Joseph's Parish. I was there for a couple ofyears and was then transferred to the old Sacred Heart down on Center Avenue. I had first grade there. Sister Mary Felix Clarey was there. She helped in guiding me what to do in my teaching. I had some very good teachers when I first started out. They really showed you how to do it correctly the first time. SMCM: So, you stayed in primary? SAB: I was in the primary department for fourteen years. SMCM: What grade did Sr. Mary Felix have? SAB: Sr. Mary Felix had third grade, and I had frrst. We had two frrst grades, because we had �3 about one hundred children. Sister Mary Hugh Bridge had one, and I had the other. I think we had two sessions, because we had forty or fifty children at a time in each session. SMCM: Did you have that many seats in your classroom? SAB: No, we had to divide the class in half....one session from nine AM until Noon, and a second session from one PM until four PM. Sister M. Victorine Ellsworth was Principal when I fust went to Sacred Heart. Sister Rose Vincent McNulty replaced her. She was an excellent school woman. Someone usually went out visiting in the evening. This particular evening, Sr. Mary Felix asked me if I would go with her to visit a very sick child in the Highland Avenue Apartments. The Highland Avenue Apartments face Fifth Avenue and Highland at the comer. We went in there and were taken to what would seem like the basement, but it was really the first floor and was very nicely arranged. The child was the daughter of the maintenance man of the apartment complex. When we entered the apartment and saw the little girl, we realized that she was quite ill. Sister Mary Felix said to the mother: "Do you mind ifl call Father Kennedy?" The mother said: "No, but she isn't that sick." So, Sr. Mary Felix called Father and he came right away. The mother told her husband that we felt Father Kennedy should come and bless her. We had their other children, two sons in school. We asked if they had candles, which they did, but didn't have any holy water. We sent one of the boys up to the church to get holy water. The mother took her crucifix off her rosary and put it on the table. Father brought the Blessed Sacrament. He heard the little girl's confession and anointed her. I heard him say to her: "Mary, when you see God, tell him that Father Kennedy loves Him very much." Just as soon as we got in the door at the convent, the call came that the little girl had died. Next, I went to St. John the Baptist. Sister Aquinas O 'Brien was the Sister Servant. She was also Principal of the High School. I don't know who was the Principal of the Grade School. While I was there we had the nineteen thirty-six flood. SMCM: What do you remember about the flood? SAB: All I know is that I had an eye doctor appointment and Sister M. Alacoque McHale was supposed to be my companion. It was in downtown Pittsburgh, but we couldn't get there because there was too much water. By the time we got back to St. John's the electricity had been turned off, so we didn't have any heat. Then Father Wrigley opened up what they had that were like Quansett Huts for the High School. We brought in the children from around Butler Street because they were :flooded. They were all Negro. We brought them in and put blankets around them as they were without clothing. They kept them in what we called the "Ark." Sister M. Hildebert Mudler, Sister M. Honora Steiner, and a couple of other Sisters went over and cleaned the place. I think the Army brought in some cots. Some of the adults were there also. I believe she said they were there for a week. There was a fire built in the place, so it was nice and warm. Every morning a great, big sailor came to the door with a bucket of prunes. I'll never forget it. Sr. Hildebert and Sr. Honora did the cooking. I'm going to tell you, I've never found more courteous men than those Negro men. They would not let us pick up a broom. We had them there for several days. SMCM: How long did this last? SAB: I guess it was about two or three days, maybe a week. All of the schools were closed. There wasn't any heat. It was quite a while before the waters went down. They couldn't get into their homes while the water was going down, because their homes were full of dirt, etc. I �4 remember Father brought a white man in who was very ill. Father put a screen around him because he had pneumonia. Father Wrigley anointed him there and then had him sent up to St. Francis H ospital. He died. After the flood was over, the people went back to their own homes and we lost track of them. SMCM Did the flood water destroy anything in the school? SAB: No, the water didn't come up that high. The water came up to about the old Iron City Brewery. Some of the parents couldn't find their children. The Sisters helped to find them. SAB: At the end of the year, I went to Seton H ill. When the mission list was read out, I wasn't missioned. I spent a few unholy hours as they were looking for an "Angel" for the Academy, and I didn't want to be it. Finally, Sister Marie Cecily Chartener was chosen to be the Angel. So, l was relieved. I met Mother Rose Genevieve in the hall and she said: "Can't you find anywhere to go?" Go over to see Sister M. Eucharia O'Hagan and get a college schedule. I was very fortunate in that I got my full college in at Seton Hill without interruption. SMCM: How many years did it take you to do that? SAB: Well, I did have some college work. I lost almost two years of work. I had to start all over again. I was put in to science. The educational courses you had to have, I had. I graduated in nineteen forty. SMCM: Sister, where did you get the previous college work? SAB: I got it at Seton Hill and by going to Saturday classes. We had to go all the way to St. Peter's on North Side and to St. John's, Liberty Avenue. SMCM: Sister, St. Peter's North Side, Saturday School. Was that taught by our Sisters? SAB: No, the lay teachers from Seton Hill helped out. SMCM: That's the frrst time I ever heard that. SMCM: So, were your credits all from Seton Hill College? SAB: No, after I finished my High School in the Academy, and my College work at Seton Hill, I was sent to the University of Pittsburgh.· I received a Master's Degree in Science in nineteen forty-three. In nineteen fifty-three, I was sent to St. Mary's Notre Dame, where I received a Master's Degree in Theology in nineteen fifty-five. I had a National Science Fellowship to the University of Notre Dame. I was there for three summers. Then in nineteen forty, I went to St. James West End for eight years. I was in science from that time on. SMCM: What kind of science? SAB: When you started out in the parish schools, you taught all three sciences. When you. taught Chemistry and Physics, you taught the whole works. If you didn't have enough, you also taught Math. You had a full schedule. At West End, Sister Irma Sullivan was there. I remember that we taught in the day time and went out visiting in the evening after School up through Elliott and those places. Those older Sisters really went out.. ..visiting the sick, going to the poor, etc. Very rarely were they not out after school. SMCM: What did you do on these visits? SAB: Most often, she did most of the work. I was just tagging along. Sister Mary Eunice Clark used to collect things for the people we visited. Mother Maria Benedict Monahan was Principal at St. James High School. She was an excellent school woman and was very fair. �5 SAB: After my stay in the West End, I was sent to St. Luke's in Carnegie. SMCM: Was this in the High School? SAB: Yes, my teaching now was all in the High School. While at St. Luke's, Sister Rosalie O'Hara, Sister Mary Reginald Farrell, and I went to Oakdale every Saturday to teach Sunday School. We caught the eight o'clock bus on Main Street and taught until two o'clock. Every Sunday, Sister M. Joanna Gleason and Sister Mary Helen Meyer went to Morganza. SMCM: Where did you teach when you went to Oakdale? SAB: It was in the church. I believe the name of it was St. Patrick's. Sister Reginald Farrell took care of the First Communion Class. I had children from third, fourth, and fifth grade. Then Sr. Rosalie O'Hara taught the older children. There were a couple of young women who came to our Community from the class Sr. Rosalie taught. SMCM: Do you remember who they are? SAB: [Unintelligible] After St. Luke's, I was transferred to Sacred Heart in East Liberty. SMCM: Was this your second time back at Sacred Heart? SAB: Yes, this time it was to be in the High School. Sister Mary Helen Meyer and I had Biology. Sister Francina Skergan taught the Physics. Sister Mary Helen and Sister Mary Edmund Speer taught the Chemistry. SMCM: What year was it when you went back to Sacred Heart? SAB: I think it was nineteen fifty-four. SMCM: Were the Sisters living on top of the school at that time? SAB: Yes, we were living there. It was called a Penthouse. There were fifty Sisters there. SMCM: Who was the Sister Servant? SAB: Sr. Rose Vincent McNulty was the Sister Servant. Sister Marion McKelvy (formerly Sr. Marie Magdalene) was Principal of the High School, and Sister Mary Donald Cusick was Principal of the Grade School. Both of the schools were quite large. Of course, there were just girls in the High School. SAB: That brings us up to when I was transferred from Sacred Heart to Greensburg Central. That was in nineteen seventy. I have been here ever since. SMCM: Sister, is your specialty in science, mostly biology? SAB: Well, yes, but I have taught all three sciences. I taught them until I came to Greensburg Central. I also taught Religion until I came here. Sr. Alexine OH 31-1 Tape I Side 2 Sister, would you tell us something about your first year in the Community? SAB: I entered on November first. Sr. Alberta Sweeney entered with me. We received the habit on February second. Then the following September, we were given the black cap.We taught at St. Benedict's as novices. In the evening, we had classes. �6 Sister Marita Murphy was teaching us singing. It was a hot day. There were no screens on the windows. The next classroom was across from the novitiate, which is now the present day Community Room at Seton Hill. The June bugs were getting in. The Sister on the end caught the June bugs and passed them along, and we threw them out in the hall. Then we started giggling. Sister Marita reported us to Mother Mary Francis who was the Mistress then. The next morning, Mother Mary Francis called everybody, even we who were going to St. Benedict's. She asked every person down the line what they were doing. We were perfectly alright until the German Sisters began to talk in their broken English. The giggling began. Mother Mary Francis put the whole novitiate in silence for a full day. She asked Mother Rose Genevieve to give the other Sisters recreation during the noon and evening meals. The rest ofus had to sit in silence. So we called it "The June Bug Retreat!" SMCM: Sister, What did the German Sisters do? SAB: They had classes for them. Sister Teresa Clare taught them English, Sr. Mary Felix taught them how to read. Otherwise, they worked like we did...in the kitchen, the scullery. They didn't do the hallways. We had to do all ofthem. We also worked in the Infirmary. The Infirmary was the fourth floor ofSt. Joseph's Hall. Sister Margretta Bernlohr, one ofthe German Sisters, worked in the Infirmary. SMCM: What was your charge as a Novice? SAB: Mostly, I worked down in the Mens' Dining Room. SMCM: Where was their Dining Room? SAB: It was part ofthe kitchen, which was located on the first floor ofthe Administration Building. I also had the Priests' Dining Room for a while. Sister Mary Leonard Bums was in charge. SMCM: Who were the priests at that time? SAB: Father Sullivan was there when I first went there. After he died, Father Reeves came. Dr. Reeves (Father) was President ofthe College while I was there. SMCM: Sister, can you tell me who the Mother Superior and Council were when you entered? SAB: When I first entered, Mother Mary Raymond Creed was the Mother Superior, but I entered in November and she died the following March. The Council members were: Sister M. Victorine Ellsworth, Sister Jane Elizabeth Smith, and Sister Rose Vincent McNulty, who was the Assistant Mother. SMCM: Do you remember any ofthe senior Sisters who were at Seton Hill during your Novitiate? SAB: I remember the old nurse, Sister M. Justina Stevens. You didn't have to read your mail, because she always read your cards for you. Ifshe met you in the hall, and you had received a card, she would say: "You received a card, and they want you to know this......!" Sisters M. Liguori and Mary Agnes Gillespie were there. Sister Francis Joseph Malloy was there too. She was also with me at St. James in the West End. �7 SMCM: Who was the Infirmarian at that time? SAB: Sister Grace Barr was in charge ofthe Infirmary. She was the only one. Ofcourse, Sister Alberta Sweeney had full charge ofSister Marion Stephen, who required constant care as she was so crippled. Sister M. Estelle Hensler was the senior Novice. SMCM: Sister, where did you live as a Novice? SAB: We were on the Fourth Floor ofthe Administration Building. First, we were on the Sixth Floor, but there was a problem with the water. It would freeze up. SMCM: Did you serve in the Dining Room? SAB: The Novices always served the entire year. The older Sisters were always interested in you. They would ask you, who you were, where you were from, etc. You never meet the young Sisters now. You never see them. In fact, I don't even know ifthey are Sisters or not when I do meet them. At that time, you knew the Community was one! We had lots offun. We used to go sled riding down the main road. We borrowed the sleds which were used by the girls in the Academy. SMCM: Were there any other Sisters in the Novitiate who had to finish their High School in the Academy? SAB: There was another Sister, but I forget who it was. SMCM: What did you do for recreation besides sled riding? SAB: We had plays, I guess you would call them dumb, little things. We enjoyed each other....did lots oflaughing. In the summer, we were near the Grotto and we could use the whole lot to play ball or whatever. We had apple peeling sessions which were enjoyable. We peeled vegetables for the next day. SMCM: What did they do with the apples? SAB: Sister Francis Joseph Malloy made applesauce. Sister had a very large vat. We took our turns stirring it. We also picked strawberries which were down over the hill where Havey Hall now stands. When I first entered, there was a lake down by the road. It had boats on. The Sisters used to go out to catch frogs for the biology lab. You only went at night, because you used a flashlight to bring them out. When we went home in the summers we taught Sunday School. Sister Alberta. Sister Rose Marie Schneider, I and there was a fourth person left Seton Hill at six o'clock in the morning on Sundays. We went out to Avonmore for Mass, taught Sunday School at Avonmore, had a little lunch there, broke up, and two went to Tintown, two to Saltzburg, and someone went to Kiski. When I was at the college, we went out every Saturday. Sisters M. Maurice and Mary Thaddeus McManama, Sister Helen Cecilia Dwyer and I went over to West Newton. We broke up in the afternoon and went to a tiny place called Reduction. SMCM: How did you travel to these places? SAB: The Sisters didn't drive then, so someone from the parish or sometimes the priests would come for us and bring us home. One time a man from West Newton was transporting us. When we were returning home, another car forced us off the road. The car rolled over. We had to crawl out the top ofthe car. SMCM: Was anyone hurt? SAB: No, the driver was able then to get the car righted. �8 SMCM: Sister, were you ever involved in teaching any ofour Sisters in the Extension Courses which we had? SAB: Yes, I taught in the Summer Sessions for about twenty-two years at Seton Hill. It was an eight week course for some ofour Sisters. The courses ran from eight o'clock in the morning until one o'clock in the afternoon. When I was at Sacred Heart, I believe it was Sister Brigid Marie Grantley and I went to the Hill District to teach the Negro children at the House ofMary a couple ofevenings a week. Sister Marcella Mary Burgunder came for us. We left the dinner table in order to begin tutoring the children at six PM for about two hours. I taught them Chemistry, and Sr. Brigid Marie taught them English. SMCM: Who would you say was influential in your becoming a Sister ofCharity? SAB: I think there were two things. Remember, I told you the story ofFather Kelty being with me when my father died. For me, the sun rose and set on my father. I believe the association I had with Father Kelty, and just being around the Sisters greatly influenced me to become a Sister ofCharity. SMCM: Would you like to make any comments on the changes in the Community? SAB: I think we needed to change. I'm not so sure that the drastic change we have gone through was necessary. I can't go along with Sisters saying we have a lack ofvocations because ofthe times. The Felicians, The Daughters of St. Paul are getting them by the hundreds. Something is missing! I don't know what it is. SMCM: How have you been able to adjust to our new prayers? SAB: I'm glad we changed to the Office, because it is the prayer ofthe Church. Ifthe Church tells me to do something, I will do it, but I cannot take everyone's innovations. Some people decide we should do this or that. I can't swallow that. When the Church tells you to do something, do it, but not overdo it. I'm just wondering ifwe are not getting vocations because we are not religious enough. We have to be different, and I don't think we are too different from the secular teachers we're working with! [Unintelligible] SAB: I retired from the actual classroom teaching at Geensburg Catholic in nineteen eighty-six. The student body gave me a marvelous send off. They were having Honors Day, the day the students get their awards. We don't give them on Graduation Night because it takes too long. SAB: I remember on Graduation Night, Sister M. Germaine Helwig was beside me and when the Procession came in, behind Father Booklighter, the Ministers at the Altar, Sr. Donna Marie Lyden, Principal, etc., there was Bishop Connare. I said to Sr. Germaine: "What is he doing here?" She said: "I really don't know?" Then she said: "They're talking about you. Get up there!" I walked up. I never heard such an ovation in all my life. Everyone stood up and clapped. Every class gave me something. I ended up with eight hundred dollars. The lay faculty gave me a check for sixty-five dollars and my own department had a dinner for me out at Mountain View Inn, and they gave me about sixty dollars. Bishop Connare gave a nice talk. I said to him: "Well, I started my teaching in the Greensburg �9 Diocese and am ending it in the Greensburg Diocese." He said: "Sister, you started in the Greensburg Diocese, but you're not ending it now." Right now, I have a research group of about fifteen youngsters. I wanted to get them out of the text book into doing the actual work. I have to take them at their own time...on their study periods, etc. The first part of the course I taught them how to use all the apparatus....machines, spectroscope, how to take proper measurements, etc. Now this semester, they are doing their own research because they know how to use everything. Sister Ann lnfanger supplies them with flies. SMCM: Does that take your whole day? SAB: Yes, it takes my entire day. They're doing their research now. I'm teaching them the proper way to record and be sure that things are left in order for the next person. I'm having them write a Research Paper as it should be written by a true Research S cientist. They must be turned in to me the first week in May. SMCM: Do you enjoy doing this kind of work? SAB: Yes, I do and they get a half of a credit for it. That's my day. Tape II Side I SMCM: This is a continuation of an interview being conducted as part of the Oral History Program of the Sisters of Charity of Seton Hill. The interviewee is Sister Alexine Beam. The interview is being conducted by Sister Marie Corona Miller at the Greensburg Faculty House. The date isJanuary twenty-ninth, nineteen eighty-S even. Good afternoon, S ister. We're at it again. I think we're going to add some footnotes about the works that you have done in the line of science and the recognition that has been given to you as a Teacher of the S ciences. Would you like to share some of those with us? SAB: The first was a Teacher's Certification from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. That was for the outstanding Science Teacher of the state. The second was from the Biology Teacher's Association Award.Then I had the H.J. Heinz Company,Jones and Laughlin Steel, The Master Brewers, The Medical Society, The Veterans of Foreign Wars, The United States Air Force, and The Analytic Chemists S ociety. I also had some publications. They were large group discussions, which were published in "TheJournal of Catholic Education," and "The Pennsylvania Catholic EducationalJournal." There were publications on the teaching of Biology in "The Catholic Educator." I have made or published over eight hundred transparencies in Biology. SMCM: Sister, what is on these transparencies? SAB: They cover the entire biology course. There are drawings, graphs, diagrams, various things, etc. The public schools in Pittsburgh use these transparencies. SMCM: Sister, in order to get these awards, what did you have to do? SAB: The biology teachers in the state had to submit their entire academic background, their years of teaching, what you taught, and people came and observed your teaching. They looked at all of your work.... .like the transparencies. They went all through them. �10 SMCM: What about the award from the United States Air Force? How.did that come about? SAB: Pretty much the same way. The Veterans of Foreign Wars first had a meeting. I think Sister Mary Eudes Clougherty came to the meeting also. They gave the award to the outstanding teacher. They sent you a list of questions to answer. You had to have people vouch for you....like I had the Superintendent of Schools. Sister Marion McKelvy wrote on my behalf. SMCM: Was science your choice, or were you selected for it? SAB: I was selected for it. In those days, you didn't choose what you were going to teach. SMCM: Do you intend to continue your work at Greensburg Central teaching research as long as you can? SAB: Yes, I would like to do that. I think it's better to keep going and perhaps be of some use to somebody. SMCM: Is there anything else you would like to tell us? SAB: No, I don't think so. This group I have now are all Research Scientists. One is up in Buffalo, New York doing cancer research. She's a graduate of Seton Hill, by the way. I have others doing research in other places. SMCM: Sister, thank you for giving me your time and so much wonderful, valuable information. The Community is grateful. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Seton Hill Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sister Marie Corona Miller Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sister Alexine Beam Location The location of the interview Greensburg F Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Beam, Sister Alexine Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Sr. Alexine Beam Description An account of the resource An oral history of Sister M. Alexine Beam, a Sister of Charity of Seton Hill from 1923 until 1999. The interview was conducted by Sister Marie Corona Miller on January 29, 1987. Sister M. Alexine Beam - born Margaret Beam on February 20, 1907 - entered the Sisters of Charity of Seton Hill in November of 1923. She received a bachelor's degree in science from Seton Hill College in 1940, a master's degree in science from the University of Pittsburgh in 1943, and a master's degree in theology from Saint Mary's College in 1955. She taught science in Pittsburgh and Greensburg, serving at - among other locations - Saint James High School, Sacred Heart High School, and Greensburg Central Catholic. Some of her educational transparencies were bought and published by Holt, Rinehart and Winston, Inc. She died on November 6, 1999. S.C. (1907-1999). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sr. Alexine Beam Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Seton Hill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1987 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Archives of the Sisters of Charity of Seton Hill Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights belong to the Sisters of Charity of Seton Hill, Greensburg, Pennsylvania. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio cassette tape Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral history Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context OH-31 Education Sisters of Charity of Seton Hill