10 10 108 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/a52f17dd017230dd9a3162f17a1235c0.jpg 391373f895bd5ba3b3c7ca81002fc48b https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/4d0c38e80141ee88cd716ba53b489938.mp3 cc5d534a878695b19d8ad51f7f9dc2f6 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/86fc6e2bc1be20ebb94df24a22c84e93.pdf ec131ac65db36d0dd1c37e7a42d82e31 PDF Text Text Interviewer: Sister Francis Maria Cassidy, SC Interviewee: Sister Margaret Anna Fitzsimmons, SC Date: July 1, 1983 Editor: Sister Noreen Neary, SC Date edited: November 20, 2020 Sr. Francis Maria: Now you were one of our missionaries who went to Puerto Rico. And maybe you’d tell us a little something about how you came to go to Puerto Rico, and how long you were there, and any memories you have of your days there. Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, you know we had become interested in the foreign missions, more or less, Sister. And one group had already gone to Guayama, Puerto Rico. It seemed attractive. And I volunteered. And I went with [Sister Therese Alma Carro] and Sister whom we called Sister Inez, [Sister Anita Agnes Whalen]. And we came back in [1946], Sister... We're skipping a few... Everybody were all very happy and very active there. We had the eight grades, of course. I think there were maybe four missions in the country that the sisters... Sr. Francis Maria: Were you one of those sisters who went out to teach? Sr. Margaret Anna: Sister, the others were more versed in Spanish. And at first I did not go until later when I could help, not so much with the language as with other little things. Sr. Francis Maria: Well, when you went there, Sister, did you go down there to teach in the school? And did you do that? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, yes. I think that was the idea, the hope of everybody who went, Sister. We had been teaching here and we knew the school there was well-established. Really, it was not too unlike our parochial schools here and we could have every confidence. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember the grades that you taught there, Sister? Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, Sister. I had the eighth grade, Sister. It was more or less departmental to more than it is or was at home here. Teachers who, of course, taught Spanish. [Sister Maria Rosa Delgado] was one of our special teachers. �Sr. Francis Maria: Who are some of the sisters who were there with your time, do you remember any of these sisters? Sr. Margaret Anna: Sister Therese Alma went down. Sister Inez, whom she was called, and [Sister Miriam Gertrude Geis], of course, were there. And [Sister Irene Clare Gallagher], who is now and since that time. We came up in ‘46 and she went to the Virgin Islands and is still there. [Sister Teresa Agnes Gilrane] was there and Sister Gertrude something, who died a few years after coming home. She's not living now. Yes, I meant to ask Sister Miriam about that name because it has been familiar to me until yesterday or today. Sr. Francis Maria: We all forget names. Sr. Margaret Anna: We always forget our own. Sr. Francis Maria: Was the convent still on the upper floor of the school? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, yes. Sr. Francis Maria: ...the school? Sr. Margaret Anna: It was there, Sister. I think it was the third floor. We didn't mind climbing in those days. And on the convent, too, was a roof that we enjoyed. We were there always unless in the chapel or school. Sr. Francis Maria: Did you recreate on the roof? Sr. Margaret Anna: We did, Sister, yes, and it was delightful. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember any particular recreations, what you did at recreation? Sr. Margaret Anna: �Well, I think we did little singing, Sister. It wasn't difficult. The time flew. Recreation, Sister. But not too long before we came up, someone gave us a turkey live and of course we were anxious to taste it. And some little boy whom we had a lot of contact with, it seemed... Oh, he said... I guess we were talking about it. And he said, well, he could. So we had a circus on that roof. We had to resort to somebody a little bit stronger than this little lad. He was, what, I think about 12 years old. Sr. Francis Maria: To kill the turkey and prepare it for you. Now, you came up, then, in 1946. Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes. Sr. Francis Maria: And I guess for the sisters who were stationed there or missioned there it was a sad occasion... Sr. Margaret Anna: It was, yes. Sr. Francis Maria: ...to leave the mission. To leave. Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, Sister, the priests – the Redemptorists – were anxious. They felt they were in need of high school teaching. And we really didn't realize how anxious they were about it or… However, [Mother Mary Benita Kane] was in office at that time, felt and she knew that we couldn't one year after another, in addition of two staff, a high school sister. And that was the reason thatSr. Francis Maria: And then another order came in to replace you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, some from the west, Sister. The middle west. I think they are not there at all now. The school doesn't... I believe it doesn't exist. We heard that rather recently. Sr. Francis Maria: Now what about the packing up and the going and the trip home again? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, we were anxious about how we were going to get home because we couldn't travel just with our handbag home, you know, but we did come up by boat, Sister, and we enjoyed it, and we were so glad to see the fresh fruit when we got here. Although we did have plenty of bananas �down there as you know, and oranges. I think early in August that we came and we really enjoyed the trip once we got on the boat. Sr. Francis Maria: What were the last days like in Puerto Rico? Busy, I suppose? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, yes, of course we were busy, Sister, and everybody not knowing where she was going the next month or so. Sr. Francis Maria: Into the Motherhouse, did you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, we did, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Someone meet you at the boat? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, I don't think anyone from here met us, Sister. There were... That is... I don't think anyone from the Motherhouse met us, but we were met with a couple of friends. Everybody had a couple of friends or relatives who... I don't know how he managed to get the date. I think the priest, I forget who he was now. I think he took care of those things. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. In other words, you didn't have the responsibility... Sr. Margaret Anna: No, we didn't. Sr. Francis Maria: ...of arranging your transportation. Sr. Margaret Anna: No. Sr. Francis Maria: But did you come to Convent when you returned before goSr. Margaret Anna: Yes, we did come to Convent, Sister. And... �Sr. Francis Maria: You said it was August and school, of course, wouldn't be starting ’til September? So did you have a little rest? Do you remember anything about that period? Sr. Margaret Anna: Indeed, Sister, and I think that around that time up in Bergen County was opening for a residence. Sr. Francis Maria: Was it Mount Saint Andrew’s? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, yeah. My mistake. Thank you, Sister. Yeah, that was rather new, I think, then using it in that... Sr. Francis Maria: In that capacity now. Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes. And so I remember being there for several weeks during the summer. Sr. Francis Maria: Just to get your sites fixed. Sr. Margaret Anna: That’s right and keep from being too idle. Sr. Francis Maria: Yeah. Did the children know that you were going? Sr. Margaret Anna: I think they did. Oh, yes, they did, Sister, because the parents wouldn't be for the benefit of those who succeeded us getting the children mentally adjusted. Sr. Francis Maria: Make the transition easy. Sr. Margaret Anna: That's right. Yes. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember whether the children showed sorrow or regret? How did they behave? Like our own children would with sisters leaving whom they loved? �Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, I suppose they did, Sister, but I think that didn't impress us as much as other things. Sr. Francis Maria: What impressed you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, we were sorry that the mission could not continue. I think at that time the mission in Santurce had been opened several years before, so that was still... And that was down near San Juan where our sisters were. Sr. Francis Maria: So was Guayama more remote? Sr. Margaret Anna: Please, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Was Guayama more remote? Sr. Margaret Anna: Down at the southern coast, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: So if a choice had to be made of closing one, it would have been Guayama, rather than Santurce? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, well. Yes, it was, Sister. And there was the need there as the priest thought of high school teaching. Sr. Francis Maria: Did you visit the sisters down at that other mission very often? Or did they come to visit you? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, yes. We didn't visit too often, Sister. Every now and then we would have to go down around San Juan to do a little shopping, and that made it helpful to get to visit them. Before we did come up, we all went over to St. Thomas and spent a delightful week. Sr. Francis Maria: In the Virgin Islands. Sr. Margaret Anna: �That's right, Sister. We used to enjoy when the sisters went down on a mission to the Virgin Islands. They usually stopped for some days, maybe a week, with us. And that was always a big treat. Sr. Francis Maria: Sure it was a big treat for them, too. What kind of contact during the years you were there did you have with the sisters up here in New Jersey? Was there correspondence back and forth? Sr. Margaret Anna: I guess I think it was personal, Sister. Whether you... Not in any formal or organized way. And I think now and then we heard from the Motherhouse. I guess I think we did write more or less regularly. Sr. Francis Maria: Who was the Sister Servant during those days? Sr. Margaret Anna: You mean up here, Sister? Sr. Francis Maria: No. I mean in Puerto Rico and in the last days, in the closing days. Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, Sister, when I went there, I succeeded [Sister Mary Anita Lane] until I left in '46. Sr. Francis Maria: So the responsibility, in a sense of closing the mission, was on your shoulders. I know that you had the help of the other sisters. How did you go about it? Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, I don't think, Sister, there was any really set plan. Everybody was thoughtful and they understood conditions. Everybody did. And there was no problem at all, Sister, getting things done that had to be taken care of. Sr. Francis Maria: So you don't remember hectic days or any particular difficulties? Sr. Margaret Anna: I think not, Sister. No. Sr. Francis Maria: Well, Sister, I think that the way you've explained your last days there in Puerto Rico is probably the way that you've gone ahead with your whole life. No, no difficulties. �Sr. Margaret Anna: Right, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Nothing was the problem. Everything took care of itself in the hands of God. And after you came from Puerto Rico, Sister, what other work then were you assigned to? Sr. Margaret Anna: That year, Sister, I went to the Carmelites. Sr. Francis Maria: Englewood? Englewood? St. Cecilia's? Sr. Margaret Anna: Next to it. Sr. Francis Maria: No? Next to that in Teaneck? Sr. Margaret Anna: Mount. Carmel [School in Tenafly, New Jersey] Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, Mount Carmel in Ridgewood? No? Well, try again. Never mind, you went to a mission in Bergen County. Did you go as a teacher or as a principal or as a… Sr. Margaret Anna: Well, in those days, Sister, at least most of us did teaching, as well as trying to act as principal. Sr. Francis Maria: Trying to act as principal. I'm sure you did a beautiful job. Well, maybe a little later on... You're shaking your head no. Of course you did. You've done a very beautiful job. Well, Sister Margaret, you've been then at Saint Anne Villa since you left Marillac House. Sr. Margaret Anna: Yes, that's right, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: And would you go back in your memory a little bit to the day you entered and just tell us what year that was? Sr. Margaret Anna: Oh, my land, Sister. The year is easy – 1919. �Sr. Francis Maria: That's all we'll ask you, Sister. But you've traveled along and I know a happy road since then. Sr. Margaret Anna: Thank God. Yes, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. Well, Sister, you've been very good with your memories. I am going to now release you from those memories to move into the present because in about two minutes your lunch will be served. And I know that you'd like to get to the dining room and have your lunch. And I thank you very much. And these are very precious memories that you've... Sr. Margaret Anna: Nice speaking with you, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: ...left with us. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Margaret Ann Fitzsimmons, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C.; Colegio de San Antonio; Guayama, Puerto Rico; Mount Carmel School, Ridgewood, NJ Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's years as teacher and superior at the Colegio de San Antonio in Guayama, Puerto Rico Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 1, 1983 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Margaret Anna Fitzsimmons describes her years as teacher and superior at the Colegio de San Antonio in Guayama, Puerto Rico Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant July 1, 1983 Education Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/19aae66e0adfe688080b1e58f215ed5c.jpg 9b672552a3c5d30058583c0fc6fcd0dc https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c3547a10359d990c7c243c9b346826ee.MP3 8b0ed527267d750672a4d06cdc5d1e95 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/1cb7244876df1db31999c2f6d19db6cf.pdf 6bc9ff6a84a8084b48b0043f15ba2ab4 PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Marie Russo, SC Sister Marie Devota Gately, SC January 28, 1996 Sister Noreen Neary, SC November 19, 2020 Sr. Marie: It’s 3:15 p.m., Saint Anne Villa in Sister's room 204, regarding Sr. Marie Devota while she was living in the Caritas community, a house of retirement for the sisters in [Jersey City, New Jersey]. Sr. Marie: You lived at Caritas in Jersey City from 1982 to 1995. Sr. Devota, would you like tell us about some of the volunteer work that you did during this time? Sr. Devota: Well, during my time there, I was involved quite a bit of volunteer work My first thought when I went there in 1982 was to give something that I could be of help to other people. So I accompanied one of the sisters from Caritas over to the Visiting Homemakers Service because she was [seeking] help for her brother. And while I was there it occurred to me that possibly they would need some volunteer work done and they were delighted. So that was the beginning of my work with the Visiting Homemakers Service. I used to go there every week for a few hours. And I would call people who previously had homemakers, just to find out how they were doing, if they needed some more help and just in what way could homemaker service be of more assistance to them. It was really very interesting work and very gratifying work, too. After I was there for a few months and enjoying the work very much, I received a call from the executive's office and asking me if I would serve on a new council that they were forming, a services advisory council of Hudson County. And I was asked if I would serve on this advisory council. I was amused at first. I remember I was telling [Sister Jo Ann Bromley] about it. She was our administrator at Caritas and we both had a good laugh about it, not thinking anything would come of it. I finally was contacted and found out that it was the executive director of homemaker services who had submitted my name to this council. Well, that was the beginning of many things. It was really very interesting work. There were about 20 on this advisory council. And actually our chief work was trying to determine who were the most eligible clients for the grants that were available. First they began on a federal basis. Then they went down from the federal to state, then to county. And we [unintelligible] who were the people in the county who are the most deserving of the, but it really went into millions to receive these grants. Our job was to discuss what was the use of the grant. Why is it this particular organization applied for the grant in the first place, what use they had for the money, and what use did it seem that they were going to make of the money? And we just got that very interesting discussion about all of these groups. And I was oftentimes felt that I could give a very unbiased opinion as to whether I felt which organization would be more deserving and make more use of the grants. Unfortunately, there were politics that entered into all these things, too. And they all felt that I was not inclined to be as suggesting any information from a political point of view. So I did the �best I could to help those that I really felt, you did ask me as a Sister of Charity, how I felt that I could be of use. And I really felt as a Sister of Charity, they appreciated my contributions and my suggestions and my advice. But they're all just very wonderful people in this group and the advisory council. They did excellent work and were very concerned about the people whom they were serving. Sr. Marie: Sr. Devota, weren't you also involved in an advisory council for transportation for the elderly and handicapped from 1984 to 1994? Sr. Devota: Yes. You see one of my problems when I got to Jersey City was to find out how I could get transportation when I needed it. I had to get to the Eye Institute in Newark, for instance, and had various places that I had to go to and transportation was a little bit of a problem. We only had the one car. And so I began calling the county offices to find out if they didn't provide any kind of transportation to take care of handicapped people. Before I knew it, I had a call from the county executives in the Office of the Handicapped, asking me if I would be willing to serve on a citizens’ committee who would determine just in what way they could serve the elderly and the handicapped with regard to transportation. That, too, became interesting. We became involved in deciding on what kind of vans they needed to provide for all the people. And there were many things entering into that. What the qualifications had to be for the drivers even. And it was really, it turned out to be something very interesting. I always used to feel that while they were talking about vans for transportation, sometimes I felt that actually they didn't need vans. Sometimes just an individual or two individuals needed transportation to get to their college classes. And I couldn't see the need of having a van transporting one or two people. I was always arguing that it would be certainly more economical and more comfortable for the people using, needing the transportation to sit in just an ordinary car. Well, at first my request really wasn't heeded very much. But after a while, they began to see that this was more economical and it would certainly contribute to the comfort of the individuals who needed the transportation. And we had to go and vans would be purchased. We had to go and inspect the vans and see how many wheelchairs could fit in. Oh, there was so much involved in this, but it was interesting, it was good. Sr. Marie: What about there was another committee, the Senior Community Independent Living Services. You called it SCILS which you started working on in 1987 until 1994. How did you get involved in this and how was this sort of ministry? Sr. Devota: Well you see, after I had been going to the homemakers volunteer service, doing my volunteer work at the Visiting Homemakers Service, I began to feel that it was getting a little bit difficult for me to walk over to the office where I did my work. And they were concerned too about my crossing the streets. So they were just about to begin the SCILS program, the Senior Community Independent Living Services. And at that time I was asked that, instead of coming over to the office to do the work, would I please just serve on this committee where we could make �decisions as to how people could live independently and not have to come out to work. And just what way could we be of help in suggesting means to give aid to the elderly people? I really found this group to be particularly interesting. We became involved not so much with the elderly people but we became very involved with the volunteers. Those who would go and assist the elderly. The people would go in and would help them with their shopping and people who would transit, provide transportation for them. Sometimes they would just go to visit them. And a couple of times a year, or two or three times a year in fact, we would have group dinners together with these volunteer people, who would explain to us what they were doing and how much they enjoyed doing volunteer work for others. It's amazing how many people are really interested in giving assistance to othesr and the pleasure they get out of it. I think if everybody were aware of the pleasure you can get out of giving to others, I think more people would be wanting to volunteer their services. Sr. Marie: From 1984 to 1991, Sister Devota, you were involved in a committee an archdiocesan committee, the foster grandparents program. Sr. Devota: Yes. Sr. Marie: Could you tell something about that? Sr. Devota: That again was an advisory council. I never knew I could ever be on so many advisory councils at one time. But that again was an advisory council and the Director of the Catholic Community Services in Jersey City asked me if I would serve on that. We would meet once a month, quite regularly. And we would just see in what way could people who would like to act as foster grandparents really help these children. In fact, when I was first invited to be on the advisory council I said, "Oh, no.” I thought I was expected to work with the little children myself and in no way did I feel prepared to do this at my age. However, that wasn't it, we were just on the advisory council for it. And the grandparents, we used to have a luncheon once or twice a year when they would tell us their experiences and the joy they received from being foster grandparents and acting as foster grandparents for these little children. The elderly people themselves got so much happiness out of it because they said, "Oh, it was so good to see the little children." They'd come in and they just run up to them, throw their arms around them. And the elderly people got more out of it than you could ever even imagine. So again I say, giving yourself to others is really very, very rewarding. You get more reward, I think we got more reward out of the things we do for other people than they actually get out of it, too. Sr. Marie: Sister Devota, would you tell us a little bit more about another ministry that you engaged in, volunteer work when you were in Caritas? �Sr. Devota: Well, one of the things I did when I began, when I first went to Caritas, was to visit the jail, the Hudson County jail. It wasn't too far away from us, it was about, I would say about the equivalent of about three blocks away from us. And I used to go there, spend most of every Friday morning. I would visit the women in the jail. It was mostly a male institution, but the women were very much in the minority. Actually, when I began my work there, we only had about 40 or 50 women. But by the time I finished and the jail moved about ten years later, it was the population of the women was up to a hundred. And it was interesting going there. I think what those women needed more than anything else was someone to listen to them. So I always gave them a willing ear and occasionally they would ask me for advice on what to do. And they really needed it. We used to read. I did provide copies of the New Testament for them and any time I had little scriptural quotations or leaflets, I always gave them rosary beads. They were just so happy to get any of these things. And each time I would go in, they would show me that they had them. I had to teach them actually how to say the Hail Mary and the Our Father. Some of them, of course, didn't even know that. They weren't all Catholics, but even whether they were Catholic or not, very often they came to me. The conditions in the jail were really sad. It used to bother me very much. Sr. Marie: Yeah? Sr. Devota: Yes, because I mean, they had become so overcrowded and actually there was one big room and they slept in bunk beds. They were just one above the other. And there were about seven little cells. There would be about 14 women in one of these big rooms. And they'd have to jump down from the top bunk and that's the way they slept. And they'd see me they would really, it was amazing how so many of them would come over to talk to me. And some of them, you'd find out that they had several children, all by different husbands. And I used to try to talk sense to them, giving their lives to these men, just letting them, helping them satisfy their own sexual desires. And I said, "Who is to pay for?" I said, "Do they help you after the child is born?" Of course not. And I would question them sometimes, I'd find out someone had five and six children, each one by a different father. This was really sad. And I tried to help them to look into the future and see the damage they were doing to themselves and to the children. And they liked me for it, believe it or not. Sr. Marie: They didn't mind? Sr. Devota: No. And I did teach them the Hail Mary and the Our Father, I think I said that before. And helped them to know what the Rosary was all about because there was quite a large Muslim population of women in the jail. And they used to encourage the women to go to them whenever a Muslim leader would go to them. And apparently they had appealing things to say, because a couple of the women went over to the Muslims and thought it was really great. But I don't feel �that the women got enough spiritual help there or enough of any kind of help, to tell you the truth. The men used to have women coming in, tutoring them and helping them prepare for their GEDs. No one came to tutor the women. I don't know why. And the men used to have Masses occasionally, but the women weren't invited because they said the reason why the women weren't invited, because it would be too much of a distraction for the men, having women at the Mass with them. So the chaplain felt that it was better not to have them. But occasionally a priest would come and talk with them too. And another thing that we did sometimes, there was a long time ago and they used to have the privilege of crocheting and knitting. However, apparently it was abused because that was taken away from them. But sometimes when a girl would be expecting a baby, she'd say to me how much she wished she could make a little baby blanket – that she knew how to crochet or knit – or make little booties or a little sweater for the baby. So I would have to go to one of the authorities in the jail and get permission to get yarn for her and get all the knitting needles or the crochet hooks or whatever she would need and get permission for her to do some crocheting. This had to be done under a certain amount of supervision, but they were really so grateful for this opportunity they would have to actually do some crocheting or knitting for the baby that was coming. I could understand why it was a dangerous thing because anything with a point on is dangerous to put in the hands of one of the inmates. But we used to read scripture too. We provided, I got them through the jail, copies of the New Testament. And sometimes we'd read a few passages out of it. A passage I would think would appeal to them and we'd discuss it. But I found it very satisfying. Sr. Marie: I was just thinking of Saint Vincent de Paul with the galley slaves, the way he worked with them. It reminds me of what something that he would do. Sr. Devota: Yes. It's really very interesting. I would have stayed there. Finally, I think it was in 1981 the jail moved. Well, they had been really working on it and trying to improve conditions there, but then they moved to, I think it was someplace in South Kearny. Yeah, but it's not there. I think there's just an empty lot there now. And they were going to make it parking lot out of it or something. Sr. Marie: I didn't even notice that. Sr. Devota: But I had wanted very often to get someone to drive me to the jail after they moved. But somehow or other that never materialized. But I think the conditions there were better than what they had left. I didn't go away from the jail, the jail went away from me. At the end of it, they really liked, when I would come over, I didn't go inside the cell, but they would come. A group of them would come over to the gate to me. And of course there were different parts that I would go into it, go into different rooms. �I'd be able to talk right with them there in the individual rooms. But this one room had all those bunk beds in it. Other places had the bunk beds, too, but they weren't fenced in, the way some of them, at the gate. Sr. Marie: And were you by yourself when you went into those other rooms? Sr. Devota: Oh yes, but the guard didn't like me to go right inside the cell, unless there was somebody present there. They kind of fear of that. But I never had any problems with the women. They were always very nice. The Lord always takes care of us. Sr. Marie: Yeah, it was like you had your guardian angel protecting you or something. Sr. Devota: I got friendly with all the authorities in the jail, too. Sr. Marie: Did you really? Sr. Devota: Yes. Sr. Marie: You were influencing systems there too. Besides your work in the councils, you were working for the good of the women there by knowing the officials themselves. Sr. Devota: Oh, yes. Well, of course I had been into counseling before I retired. In fact, I was in counseling quite a few years. But then I made use of the counseling again in the parish, in [Saint Joseph School in Jersey City]. Sr. Marie: Oh, would you tell us about that, what did you do in the school? Sr. Devota: What I did, the principal, Sister Joan McKee, would give me a list of names of some of the students, all in different grades. And I would go over to the school once a week and meet these children on an individual basis. And we would just discuss whatever their problems were or whatever they needed. And some actually range from kindergarten up to the eighth grade. �So, that was a good experience. But there was such a different level, the whole range. I had just maybe a couple from, not from every grade of course, but I had quite a few who came to me at about a half hour intervals or whatever. Sr. Marie: Sr. Devota, you were also involved in the parish itself, besides being involved in the school. Would you tell us about the work that you did in the parish? Sr. Devota: Well, before I went to Caritas community, I had been a Eucharistic minister already, had been through that training and so forth. So when I went to Saint Joseph's parish, this parish in which Caritas community is located, I was Eucharistic minister the whole time that I was there. And that was really a privilege. Then once a week on Monday nights a group of the women used to get together. In fact, they used to come over to the convent and we would have the 15 decades of the Rosary every Monday night. And a couple of the sisters and I always participated in that and that was rewarding. And, too, they had the annual carnival that we had in the fall of every year. And sometimes I would go out during the carnival and help sell chances or do something like that, just to try and make myself useful. Sr. Marie: If I remember correctly, you were involved, quite involved in the life of the parish in any activity they had. Sr. Devota: Well, I always liked it. I felt I liked to be part of the parish. But sometimes my other activities, for instance, the Human Services Advisory Council, we used to have meetings beside our evening meetings. We used to have meetings on Monday, it used to be mostly committee meetings on Monday afternoon. I had joined the senior citizens in the parish, but this interfered with some of the other meetings I had in the Human Services Advisory Council. So I really couldn't continue that for too long, although I went on some of the activities that they had. One thing that they had, and this was a parish activity. I just thought of it. The PATH [Port Authority Trans-Hudson transit system], the trains there that run at Journal Square Port Authority, they wanted to build something right there at the square in the PATH terminal, which ran into our parish. There were people living over there and the railroad, when the trains went right underneath. There was this area of the parish, it was called The Island. And whatever the Port Authority wanted to build, I don't really know exactly what it was, but I knew it was going to be very, very noisy. And people objected very much to it because they just felt that the noise involved, they weren't going to stay in the parish and they did not want to move. So they organized a trip to Trenton and asked for a group of us to go to Trenton to fight this. And, of course, I was one of the ones who went to Trenton. And as a result, the Port Authority gave up the idea of building whatever they wanted to build that was going to be so noisy and have such a negative influence on the people in the parish. I was glad of that. And I made some nice acquaintances the day we went there. Sr. Marie: �So, it sounds as if you not only were involved on councils and in the parish, you were involved in really helping to change the life of the whole community and of a lot of people in Hudson County. Sr. Devota: I don't know how much I changed their lives, but… Sr. Marie: Well… Sr. Devota: I was involved in some way in a few things. Sr. Marie: And it sounds as if you went out to the poor, as we do as Sisters of Charity. So, thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for your time. Sr. Devota: You're very welcome and… Sr. Marie: And for giving us the example. Sr. Devota: Very happy to be able to share it because I feel that these are privileges that the Lord gave me, that I didn't have to sit idle and just twiddle my thumbs after I had retired. Sr. Marie: After your retirement, right. Sr. Devota: But I'm very grateful for all I was able to do. And it didn't seem like a lot at the time, but now as I look back, I'm glad I was able to do what I did. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gately, Sister Marie Devota, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:22:29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Marie Devota Gately, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Gately, Sister Marie Devota, S.C.; Caritas Community; Jersey City, NJ; St. Joseph Parish and School, Jersey City, NJ Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's varied volunteer activities during her retirement in Caritas Community in Jersey City, NJ Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gately, Sister Marie Devota, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 28, 1996 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Marie Devota describes her varied volunteer activities during her retirement in Caritas Community in Jersey City, NJ Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant January 28, 1996 Education Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/289e44346ea9a7b567b6a0754afc4d41.jpg efeae8b9860da3daa4c0ef773ce15f06 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/72b5fec3bf3a2c8a4bb482f6d2679734.mp3 6e8ad73ea12f97f3578beee76d27b231 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/72f0d87aa286f47139324ae16cd139f7.pdf 992482e788e03b386bf8c3522921052d PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Francis Maria Cassidy, SC Sister Anna Denise Murphy, SC July 6, 1983 Sister Noreen Neary, SC November 17, 2020 Sr. Francis Maria: We're visiting at Saint Anne Villa this morning. It's July 6th 1983 and I'm sitting in a lovely, cheerful parlor. And sitting next to me is ... And we've been chatting for a little bit about the [House of Divine Providence and Home for Incurables in Ridgewood, New Jersey]. Your name is Sister Anna Denise Murphy and I'm Sister Francis Maria Cassidy. And I'm just recording that I'm visiting you in this lovely, cheerful parlor. Sister Bea Guider has given us a very nice room here to ... Sister Anna has agreed to tell us something for the record, for history, about her memories of the House of Divine Providence for Incurables in Ridgewood. So, SisterSr. Anna Denise: You see, there was a little cottage, I'll tell you that point. Across the way from the House of Divine Providence, and [Mrs. Andrew Fuller] owned that house. It was a little cottage. Sr. Anna Denise: ... and do things for her. And when she died, she gave all that property to Sister Sarah Joseph [Morning], where Mount Saint Andrew is. All that property she gave to Sarah Joseph. Sr. Francis Maria: That would be across the street? Sr. Anna Denise: Yes. The big house. Nothing was there then, when I was there. And then you see, Sister, this is funny, she had a lot of lovely flowers, Sister. And she had a horse, the woman had. She had a horse, and I think a dog. And she had a parrot. And you see, the people in our house used to go over there. She had lovely flowers, and they used to pull the flowers. And Sister could hear miles away, that parrot would holler, "There they are." And that meant she'd come out and chase them. But Sister, I think you could hear in New York, he'd holler every time they'd come. He'd holler and she'd have to chase them. She used to give some of the flowers for the chapel. And then, of course it was very ... every Sister did their work there. No help of any. They had one girl, a lovely young girl. She's now the Sister. But she was Maria Melania here. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. Sr. Anna Denise: Her Sister, Mary Crowe. Sr. Francis Maria: �Yes, I know Sister Melania. Sr. Anna Denise: She used to have to help me because I didn't know much. So in the morning, [Sister Maria Melania Crowe] used to tell us at the table. "Please, Sisters, could you do without milk? Or could you do without bread?" Or something, "Because I ain't got enough for the patients." They'd say yes. And then Sister Sarah Joseph had a wagon and a horse. This is funny, too. And I'd have to get up at three o'clock in the morning, and go in that wagon with her. And she'd go down to Newark, to Walsh to get the meat for nothing. He had a big, big meat store, but she'd have to go there before the man would open. Sr. Anna Denise: And, Sister, she had a little bell. And she stuck that bell and she'd ring it for the Angelus. Now this is true, and every time she rang, the horse… Sr. Francis Maria: Nodded his head. Sr. Anna Denise: Yes, he was used to that. Sr. Francis Maria: It was a signal. Sr. Anna Denise: Then when we'd come home, Sister, we'd have to take care of the patients and fix them, get ready for Mass. It was very hard because… Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember the year that you went there, Sister? Sr. Anna Denise: I think it was either 1916 or ‘17, because I entered in 1915. Sr. Francis Maria: So then you were just a novice? Sr. Anna Denise: What? Sr. Francis Maria: You were just a novice. �Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, [unintelligible]. And then you see, Sister, they had a great big room there, a beautiful room. Best room there. And they used to fix this up and have it. But that was for [Mother Mary Xavier Mehegan]. She used to come and stay. That was before I was there, of course. And they used to say, "Fix the room." And they put a big chair for her, and she used to see the sisters, see? And she'd stay there a couple of days. And of course, the sisters were so happy that she was there. Sr. Francis Maria: It would be like a visitation, but it would also be a little vacation for her. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, she loved it. She loved Ridgewood. Sr. Francis Maria: It was getting out into the country, even though here is country. Sr. Anna Denise: You see, now it's all built up. Before there was there nothing for miles and miles, there was nothing there, no houses, only that little cottage. And across the street where Mount Saint Andrew’s was, there was nothing there but woods. But now it's all built up. And of course, the house is burnt; they have a church there now. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. I've been to that church. Do you remember anything about that fire? Sr. Anna Denise: About what? Sr. Francis Maria: The fire that burned… Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, yes. You see, Sister, Mr. Cullen in Newark used to give girls to them. I don't know, they were poor. So this girl, after the fire, they said she was a firebug, I don't know. And up in the attic, of course, they had nowhere. They never had wheelchairs. They had crutches and all that. And she must have sent up there fire. I remember, the whole attic went on fire and we had such a hard time because most of those people were crippled. And we had to try and get them downstairs and out, and everything. That was in 1925. Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, you have a good memory for dates. Sr. Anna Denise: �Yes, that was from 1925. I forget that date, but it was 1925. And they had to get out. We had to try and get them out. So the firemen in Ridgewood were very quick, Sister. They helped us. Because the ones in Ridgewood didn't come right away, but the firemen in Paterson came. Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, it was the Paterson firemen who helped you? Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, they did all the work. The Ridgewood firemen came after, but they wasn't so quick. They took their time. But the firemen in Ridgewood, they did, they came. Sr. Francis Maria: Paterson first, and then the Ridgewood people came. Sr. Anna Denise: But Paterson did everything. Sr. Francis Maria: But before the fireman arrived, I imagine you must have been helping the patients. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, we had to get them down, Sister, because they were crippled. And then each sister tried to get them down, and [Sister Mary Valentinia Morin] had a great big dormitory with patients. It was a big floor. And then the next floor was Sister Lethia's. And the next floor was mine. And we had to try and get them out. The smoke alone would kill them, Sister. Sr. Francis Maria: Were there any injuries? Sr. Anna Denise: What? Sr. Francis Maria: Were there any injuries? Sr. Anna Denise: Well, not there, but then we put them over to Mount Saint Andrew’s was there. And a good many of them died with fright. None of them [unintelligible]. They died with fright. They were so crippled, Sister, it was hard to get them down. Sr. Francis Maria: Sister, was this fire at night? �Sr. Anna Denise: No, Sister. No, thank God it wasn't at night, I think it was in the afternoon, as far as I know. But it wasn't at night, I know that. Sr. Francis Maria: Well, that was a blessing. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, yes. And we got them out, anyway. But, see, they were so sick, Sister, it was hard to get them out. We got them out. And of course, I was the youngest Sister there, and they depend upon a lot. At that time you couldn't say no. Whatever you were told to do, you had to try. Sr. Francis Maria: It was easier in a way. Sr. Anna Denise: What? Sr. Francis Maria: It was easier in a way in that you didn't have to make a decision. Sr. Anna Denise: And Sister Sarah Joseph had charge of the whole farm. She had charge of getting the meat. Then there used to get a great big bake... I forget, it was Ward’s. The name was Ward’s. They'd give them big bags of flour and they’d make the bread. They had a big room, I remember, and two great big ovens. And you see, we had to get up at three o'clock in the morning once a month or every second week and they’d make the bread. But at that time, Sister, you couldn't break your fast, don't you remember? Sr. Francis Maria: I remember, until after communion. Sr. Anna Denise: They'd say to me, "Hurry up." I'd have to come down, and they'd make the bread. Oh, Sister, the smell of that bread would make you eat, but you couldn't touch it. And Sister Sarah Joseph had charge of it. Sister Valentinia and Sister Louise Adele [King] was there, and [Sister Mary Esther Mahoney] was there. And [Sister Mary Simeon Ward], she died here. And Sister Valentinia died here. All those Sisters used to work, so we used to get ... And then after that I'd have to go up and get the patients ready for the priest. Sr. Francis Maria: Now, I hope you had some bread before you did that. Was this before Mass? �Sr. Anna Denise: Nothing. Sr. Francis Maria: And you were young. Sr. Anna Denise: You had no time for that. Sr. Francis Maria: You were young. You must have had such an appetite. Sr. Anna Denise: Even the other Sisters didn't. They were used to that. Sr. Francis Maria: But I'm think thinking about the smell of that bread on an empty stomach. Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah. And those Sisters, they got over ... I guess God took care of us. And those old Sisters, my goodness, what sacrifice they did. So then I'd have to get the patients ready for Father… oh, Father Keough. Sr. Francis Maria: See, it worked. Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, you got it. Father Keough was there. And he used to hear the patients' confessions. But he'd have to have a bell, because they weren't able to go out and in. And when he was still with the confession, he rang this bell. We'd have to go in and take the patient out and bring the other one in, see? They were crippled. Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, yes. Sr. Anna Denise: They had no elevator, Sister. Food came up on dumbwaiters, and I had a pantry and this woman. Oh, she was a little bit of a nuisance, and she used to take and upset the tray, so I went to her. So when she came out of confession, she says, "Father Keough told me what to do about you. He helped me. He said, 'Don't bother with her pantry. Stay away from it. You don't want to go there.'" But he did this for me. Sr. Francis Maria: �That was his way of helping you? Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah. So she stayed away. Sr. Francis Maria: He was a good psychologist. Sr. Anna Denise: She didn't go in anymore, see? Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. Sr. Anna Denise: But I was nice to her. That didn’t bother, because Sister Melania always told us, "Sisters, you have to put up with a lot. They're sick." And I told you about the rosary, did I? Sr. Francis Maria: No, not yet. Sr. Anna Denise: Well, this woman was very sick, Sister, and she was all crippled. And she was a good Catholic. And I had a nail in her room. And on that nail I'd have to put the rosary. And she went through her eyes. Nails used to go into her hands. But we had no medicine. We had carbolic, but we had a doctor that would come once or twice a year. And he'd always say to me, "Little Sister, you have to wear gloves," you have [unintelligible]. And I had other patients… Sr. Francis Maria: You mean your hands were burned from the carbolic? Sr. Anna Denise: What? Sr. Francis Maria: Your hands were burned? Sr. Anna Denise: You had to put it in water to fix it because we had nothing else. That was the only thing that would wash her. Because, Sister, if we left that hand there, the worms would get in, see the flesh… Sr. Francis Maria: �Sure. Did you find this hard to do? Sr. Anna Denise: No, I was young and strong, Sister. I was young and strong then. I thought when you went to the community you had to do whatever you've got to do. Sr. Francis Maria: We hear so much today about Mother Teresa of Calcutta working with the indigent poor in India and in other parts of the world, and we wonder how she can work with these people who are so ill, but as you say… Sr. Anna Denise: Those people couldn't have [unintelligible], because it was incurable. Because the priest, and this woman used to get them down by [unintelligible], living in the little huts or something, they were poor, see? And we had one [Sister Mary Cortona Byrne], she was [unintelligible]. She used to make the clothes for them, but Sister, she got cancer. Sr. Francis Maria: I'm sure she has a beautiful face in heaven. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, yeah. They put her in the parlor, and there used to be an undertaker in Paterson. He used to come. Of course, they had their own graveyard there. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes, I see. They had their own graveyard at the House of Divine Providence? Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, yeah. They had a big graveyard. Father Keough said Mass and everything, and they got everything. But I was young. I didn't mind it. And you see, I was sent there, and Sister, Lord have mercy on her, Melania and Mary Crowe, the woman had to have a bath. Of course, I'd never bathed anyone in my life. So I put the woman in the tub. And, Sister, I guess I was rubbing her with my eyes shut. I rubbed her so much, we had those fluted caps... in the tub. Sr. Francis Maria: She threw you in? Sr. Anna Denise: She put my head in. The woman got tired of me rubbing with my eyes shut, I didn't know any better. Oh, you know those fluted caps? Sr. Francis Maria: I sure do. �Sr. Anna Denise: All the starch… I went up to Sister Melania. "Mother of love, what happened to you?" Well, I said, "Sister, that woman put my head in the tub." "Why? Sister, dear, you must keep your eyes open when you bathe people." I said, "Sister, I never bathed…" Sr. Francis Maria: You were embarrassed? Sr. Anna Denise: No, I didn't know. I was dumb. I said, "Sister, I never bathed anyone." Oh she said, "I know you didn't. But if you're bathing them, keep your eyes wide open." For years gone by, they had that joke on me, because all the [unintelligible]. Sr. Francis Maria: And you know those fluted caps were hard to come by. Sr. Anna Denise: See, the other Sisters, they were much older. They knew about it, and then you see… Sr. Francis Maria: You had no training for this. Sr. Anna Denise: What? Sr. Francis Maria: You had no training for this kind of work. Sr. Anna Denise: Well, I never did. I was young. And then Keough used to come at Christmas, and he used to visit, eat dinner with us. And then at Christmas, you see, the people in Paterson and Knights of Columbus used to send pails of candy. And we had to take every bag we had and put candy inside, and we'd give it to the patients. Of course, they thought they were in heaven, in heaven on Earth for a bit of candy. We'd give it to them. And then on the 8th of December, Sister Melania gave us 50 cents. Oh, we were [unintelligible] because Sarah Joseph used to take us to Paterson and we used to buy a lot of stuff. Sr. Francis Maria: With your 50 cents? Sr. Anna Denise: Oh my goodness. �Sr. Francis Maria: That was a fortune then. Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah. Everything was cheap then. And Sister Valentinia came home and she said to Sister Melania, "Guess what?" She said, "I was in in that store and I got this little ham, 50 cents." Sr. Francis Maria: No. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, everything was cheap then. Sr. Francis Maria: What could you buy for 50 cents today? Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, that was in Paterson and I guess he gave it to her cheaper. At that time they had lots of love for the house and the Sisters. Sr. Francis Maria: She probably told them that's all the money she had. Sr. Anna Denise: So, the Sister in the kitchen, I think it was [Sister Anna Josephus Lucey], the Sister in the kitchen fixed it and gave it to us, a little piece. Then at night, we had recreation. And Sunday night, Sister Melania, she was at every exercise. We had to be there for recreation, and she used to sit in a big chair, Sister. And you know who she reminded me of? One time I saw in a book, I don't know what book, Mother Seton with the Sisters around her. And she'd have us around there, and she'd tell us ... I know one story she told me. Sr. Francis Maria: Was she the Sister Servant? Sr. Anna Denise: Oh yes, she was. But one story she told me, she told us the old [Sister Mary Catherine Nevin]. I didn't know her. Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, Mary Catherine Nevin? Sr. Anna Denise: �Yes. The first. That's when she was 50 years old. She stood and she said to the Sisters, "Pray for me. I'm 50 years serving God, that I did His work and everything right – that's what I want," she said. I know that, she tells us other things. And they had a Victrola, but it was those round ones. Maybe you don't remember them. They were like this, the old ones. And I’d have charge of them and I'd have to put the records in. And Sunday night, for dessert we had a big thing of apples. Sr. Francis Maria: The sisters’ recreation time? Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah. But oh, Sister, we were happy. Sr. Francis Maria: You were happy. You worked hard, you were very happy. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, we had no time, Sister. When I used to go down to recreation Sunday, some poor patient that would walk around. I'd say, "If anything happens, call some way." Because they had no telephones or things like that. But, oh, Sister Melania was so good. She was at every exercise, and she was just like ourselves. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. She is very sweet. Now Sister, were there some Sisters there at the time you were there, who had been there in Mother Xavier's time? Sr. Anna Denise: Yes, I'll tell you who was there. Sarah Joseph was there, and Mary Esther was there. They told us about the big room, as I told you about. And Sister Louise Adele was there. She had charge of the priests – the front of the house and the priests. And then they had a Sister, that I think she was there too. [Sister Cornelia Agnes O’Rourke]. Sr. Francis Maria: Cornelius? Sr. Anna Denise: Agnes Cornelius. She had charge of the meeting, and the prayers, and everything. Then in the convent where we were, Sister, from the top of that room where we were down to the bottom, they had a big glass door and you could see the Blessed Sacrament and then the next floor was the choir, and then of course, down below. But Sister Melania used to always tell us, she'd say, "Sisters, when you go in the chapel, I want no talking. God is there." Sr. Francis Maria: Now, do you remember any of the other stories about Mother Xavier? Do you remember anything they told you? �Sr. Anna Denise: No, I don’t know because I wasn't there. Only what they told me. Sr. Francis Maria: I know, but what they told you. Now she would come… Sr. Anna Denise: The sisters used to go in to see her, and she loved Sister Melania, and she loved to stay there because she could go around, and she used to talk to them and tell them things. Sr. Francis Maria: Talk to the sisters and talk to the patients? Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, they loved it. Of course, I wasn't there. I entered in 1915. Sr. Francis Maria: I understand, yes. Sr. Anna Denise: But they told me this room was beautiful, but I know one time Sister Valentinia went to Paterson with the fifty cents and she bought a lovely cup and saucer. See, they had nice things at the table for Mother Xavier when she came. And she used to say, "Sisters, I want the same as you people have." Melania used to say, "The sisters thought so much of you, Mother, that they thought they'd buy the cup and fix a place." Sr. Francis Maria: Well, that's a very nice insight into how humble a woman Mother Xavier was. Sr. Anna Denise: What? Sr. Francis Maria: She was very humble, Mother Xavier. She wanted no fuss. Sr. Anna Denise: She was like a mother. So she bought this cup. I saw it after. That room was never touched. Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, they kept that room? Sr. Anna Denise: �That was locked up and she used to come. Then there was St. Joseph's Hospital [in Paterson, New Jersey]. There was a Sister before Mary Clare, [Sister Mary Irmina McDonough] or some name like that. But she was a great friend of Sister Melania. And Sister used to go there. She used to give Sister Melania some gauze and medicine for the patients. Sr. Francis Maria: Sharing. Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, so she used to take us. So this time she took me, and we had [inaudible 00:19:46]. Sister Irmina, that was her name. Sr. Francis Maria: Sister Irmina? Sr. Anna Denise: Irmina. Before Mary Clare got there. And she said to Sister Melania, "I wish could have that little Sister, she could be a nurse." Oh, my heart was broken. And then Sister Melania said, "Oh no, Sister. We need her. We need her very much." Sr. Francis Maria: Sister Irmina wanted you at St. Joseph's Hospital? Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, to become a nurse. But I was so frightened, Sister. Sister Melania said, "No, we need her mostly there." She said, "Sister Melania, your sisters work 10 times harder than my nurses." She said, "They ain't got all that work to do." But, oh Sister, it was awfully hard. I guess you're tired listening to me. Sr. Francis Maria: Sister, I could go on listening forever. Do you remember how long you were there at the House of Divine Providence? Sr. Anna Denise: Well, I was there ‘til the fire. And after the fire, I was there two years, and we were sent over to Mount Saint Andrew. But they had no room for everybody. Sister Valentinia had to go over, and this one had ... They had no room for me over there, so I was there three years and then I was sent out to another mission. But the other mission wasn’t anything. Sr. Francis Maria: You must have missed it when you had to leave. Sr. Anna Denise: �But they had no room over there, Sister. They had room for all the other nuns, see. Sr. Francis Maria: Sister, can I go back to that special room they had set up for Mother Xavier? Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah. Sr. Francis Maria: Was that destroyed in the fire? Was that room destroyed? Sr. Anna Denise: Everything was destroyed. Sr. Francis Maria: So that lovely cup and saucer that you spoke about? Sr. Anna Denise: Yes, my goodness. At that time, everything was wonderful. [Sister Valentinia would] come and she'd say to Sister Melania, "Look what I bought." Because we had bowls. "Look what I bought." Sister Melania said, "Oh, a cup and saucer for yourself." "Oh, no, no," she said, "for Mother Xavier." Then Sister Melania said, "Oh, that's very nice. We'll put that at her place when she comes." But Mother Xavier didn't want it. Mother Xavier said, "I'll have the same as the sisters." But then Sister Melania said, "Sister Valentinia spent her big money, 50 cents." Sr. Francis Maria: 50 cents. Did you see that cup and saucer? Sr. Anna Denise: Yes. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember what it looked like? Sr. Anna Denise: Well, it was a fancy cup and saucer. It had little flowers around it and flowers on the thing. Of course, at that time everything was wonderful and they put it at her plate. Sr. Francis Maria: That was very special for her. She didn't want it. Sr. Anna Denise: �She didn't want it. "I want the same." Sister Melania said, "Mother, listen. She spent her whole 50 cents to buy the cup and saucer," so Mother Xavier said, "All right, I'll use it as long as Valentinia did that." Sr. Francis Maria: Ah, she didn't want to hurt her. Sr. Anna Denise: But you see, they told me before that they loved Mother Xavier. When she’d come, the house was lit up. And Sister Melania said, "Don't do anything special for me. Give me everything the Sisters have the same." Sr. Francis Maria: Mother Xavier would say this. Sr. Anna Denise: And she used to come down, and she used to be for recreation. But they'd all be so happy. She was a great friend of Melania. Of course, Melania was much older. And she loved them. Sr. Francis Maria: When Mother Xavier would come, I suppose she'd rest a bit, she'd be at recreation with you. Sr. Anna Denise: Melania used to say to the Sisters, "Now Sisters, don't go in the room to Mother Xavier ‘til after dinner. She just went to Mass and she wants a rest." Sr. Francis Maria: Give her a chance. Sr. Anna Denise: Sister Melania used to go and see her. Sr. Francis Maria: When you think that she had such a responsibility in the community on her shoulders, and she wasn't young at that time. Sr. Anna Denise: Who? Sr. Francis Maria: Mother Xavier. Sr. Anna Denise: �Yeah, but she loved it. She loved that place. Sr. Francis Maria: She loved to come. As I have read, this was one of her very favorite projects, this House of Divine Providence. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, she loved it. But Sister Melania used to go with her around the grounds, and then she was very good. She'd go and see the sick people. And she used to say to Sister Melania, "Oh, Sister, they are God's people. They are God's people going to heaven." And she used to say to some of the people, "If you get to heaven, don't forget Mother." Sr. Francis Maria: Mother Xavier would say that? Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, because you see, they had suffered so, and they had nothing. Sr. Francis Maria: She was depending on their prayers. Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, they were poor people. They didn't have half of the clothes when they'd bring them in. And the women in Paterson were mostly good to work. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. But there was a great concern in our community for the poor. Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah. Oh, Sister, they were poor. Then you see, when they die ... When the doctors told me, I used to say to them, "You'll be in heaven pretty soon." And then at ten o'clock in that house, in the sun parlor, they said the rosary and they said the prayers, and they used to go around the rooms. Of course, the ones in the rooms wouldn't hear them. But they had to tell them that the rosary was beginning and they'd pray. Sr. Francis Maria: And they would say it from their beds. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh yes, they'd say it and they used to pray for the sick. And they always prayed for the community. And praying for different ones dying. When I think of it now, I don't know how ... It was very hard, Sister. Because you had nobody to help. You had to bathe them. You had to see �that the rooms were clean. You had to see that the food came up on the dumbwaiter. You had to fix your tray. Sr. Francis Maria: Is that what you did in your pantry? You spoke about having charge of a pantry? Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, that was where the trays were. That belonged to the floor. That belonged to your floor. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. You carried the trays? Sr. Anna Denise: What? Sr. Francis Maria: You carried the trays to the patients? Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, we had to carry the trays. And sometimes, what's her name, Mary Crowe used to help me with the trays. She was very good. Sr. Francis Maria: Mary Crowe? Sr. Anna Denise: Mary Crowe. She wasn't a sister. And her sister is here, [Sister Maria Melania Crowe]... Sr. Francis Maria: Sister, you mentioned that you did all the work yourselves, the sisters did. You did haveSr. Anna Denise: We had to. We had no nurses. Sr. Francis Maria: Yeah, you had Mary Crowe to help you. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, yeah. We had no nurses. That's why Sister Irmina used to say, "Your sisters work more than the nurses." We had no nurses. Sr. Francis Maria: �There was just one thing I wanted to ask you about, I know that you had no help in the house, but how about the grounds? Did you have any man who helped you? Sr. Anna Denise: Yes, I forget what he was. But he never came in the house. He did that for charity. He came to the grounds for Sister ... He came from Paterson, too. I forget what his name was now. Patrick O'Neill, some name like that. Sr. Francis Maria: It's a good name. Did you ever hear the story of a man, a deaf mute who couldn't speak, who Mother Xavier had here at Convent Station and whom she sent out there to the House of Divine Providence when he became very ill? Sr. Anna Denise: Well, I heard of it, but you see, I was never there in her time. Sr. Francis Maria: I know you weren't there, but do you remember anyone talking about him? Sr. Anna Denise: Well, Valentinia and I think it was Sister Esther, Mary Esther. She had charge of the men's house. She used to tell how he was deaf, and Mother Xavier used to talk to him and the sisters. But of course, Mother Xavier always went to the poor. She went to those cripples before she went to us. When she'd come in the house, and she'd seen Melania, of course. And Melania had to take her round to the different floors. She saw those patients. I don't know how they managed it. She'd go to all the patients. Sr. Anna Denise: And of course those patients, Sister, when they heard they were here, if she wasn’t there, they’d be sick, they loved her. She'd say to them, "You're suffering for God. You're poor, and you'll get reward in heaven." Sr. Francis Maria: Yes, and I think knowing that it was coming from her, it meant a great deal to them. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh yes, they loved ... They had nothing else, the poor things. What did they have? Sr. Francis Maria: Well, Sister, you've given us a very, very beautiful first-hand… Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, maybe I talked too much. �Sr. Francis Maria: No you didn't. Some first-hand personal memories, and you've made me see that House of Divine Providence in action. Sr. Anna Denise: We had nothing. There was one Sister, she used to sew. They didn't have an electric machine. They had that… Sr. Francis Maria: A little foot pedal machine? Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, and she had charge. Of course, there was never anything new. Because I remember one time, Sister Valentinia, her mop wasn't much good and she threw it out. Now listen to this, Sister Melania was around, she brought the mop upstairs, she washed it. Sister Valentina went to her and said, "Sister, have you got any kind of a mop?" She said, "Yeah, here's the one you threw out." Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, she was so careful about poverty. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, you didn't have it. She didn't have it. You had to be careful of everything. And I know one thing I meant to tell you, this is funny, too. Sister Mary Matthew [Grogan] was there and old Sister Simeon was there. She had charge of the laundry. She's the one that used to help the sister with the cancer. And she used to have a day or two that she'd close the laundry and go down and help. And Mary Matthew was there. But we used to [unintelligible] sewing, and Mary Matthew, she was very funny. She'd have a needle, and she had no thread. She had no thread. Sister Melania said, "Mary Matthew, when are you going to get the thread through the needle?" So she told one of the sisters to give her the thread, but Sister Melania always put it in a nice way. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes, she went through the motions of sewing. Sr. Anna Denise: Yeah, she was nice. And you could go to her. She was like a big mother. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. Well, your memories are so kind, Sister. And I'm so glad that you were able to recall so much. Your dates and names. Sr. Anna Denise: �They used to tell me when Mother Xavier came, "Oh, the whole house was in glory." Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, that's a beautiful way to… Sr. Anna Denise: Sister Melania used to give [unintelligible]. Of course, the Sisters, I guess they didn't have much to put on, a decent cap or something to see Mother. Sr. Francis Maria: Yeah, I hope you didn't have to wear the cap that you went into the bathtub in. Sr. Anna Denise: They’ll think I'm crazy. Sr. Francis Maria: That is funny, no. Sr. Anna Denise: Of course, we had to have aprons and beads and a cape, and they'd dress up what they had for Mother Xavier, because the whole place would be lit up when she’d come. Sr. Francis Maria: As you said, it was a glory when she came. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, they loved it. Even the patients loved it. She loved the patients because they were poor. She used to say to the Sisters, "Sisters, they're suffering for God. They have nothing. And when they go, they go to heaven." And I said one time to Sister Melania, "I hope they're praying for us." And she said, “Yes, they pray for us." Sr. Francis Maria: And I hope they're still praying for us. Sister Anna Denise, I hope that you're praying for our lovely community. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, I do. I pray every day. Sr. Francis Maria: And I thank you so much. Sr. Anna Denise: �I thank God I have my brain. I can go in the chapel and pray. And you know the sisters here, every time… I say, "You think I'm a prayer book, don't you? Will you pray for this one, will you pray for that." I love to pray. But God is good, Sister. My brain. Sr. Francis Maria: God is very good. Your mind is wonderful. Sr. Anna Denise: All my life I didn't do anything right, don't you know? Sr. Francis Maria: Well, that's the way you see it. Sr. Anna Denise: The woman I kept my eyes shut with, that was wrong. Sr. Francis Maria: When you gave her the bath? Sr. Anna Denise: You had to be told about it. Sr. Francis Maria: That was very, very mild. I'm sure that… Sr. Anna Denise: I think it was dumb. I said to Sister Melania. "Oh," Sister Melania said, "No, Sister. You were innocent." At that time… Sr. Francis Maria: Well, now, Sister Anna Denise, thank you very much for your memories. Sr. Anna Denise: Oh, I kept… Sr. Francis Maria: No, you didn't. Will I see you at the picnic in a little while? Sr. Anna Denise: No, I'm not going [unintelligible] Sr. Francis Maria: You're not going out to the picnic? �Sr. Anna Denise: [unintelligible] Sr. Francis Maria: All right, well I hope I'll be able to talk to you again. Thank you for sharing. Sr. Anna Denise: And I thank you for listening to me. Sr. Francis Maria: Oh, I loved it. I had an absolutely beautiful time. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Murphy, Sister Anna Denise, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:32:19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Anna Denise Murphy, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Murphy, Sister Anna Denise, S.C.; House of Divine Providence Ridgewood, NJ; Sister M. Melania Crowe; Mount Saint Andrew Villa Ridgewood, NJ; Paterson, NJ, Mother M. Xavier Mehegan Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's early years at the House of Divine Providence; stories of Mother M. Xavier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Murphy, Sister Anna Denise, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 6, 1983 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Anna Denise remembers her early years at the House of Divine Providence and recalls stories of Mother M. Xavier Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant July 1983 Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/56462d58f3cb6414f26b43284b865070.jpg 90bd4ab4b82f420ecb073c1c171424a3 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/62a67b748c377578714b73ce51e1af18.mp3 685683275a5f173a1645d1fa7db62aea https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/f623b8e4bc51bcacfc9e7f0c65f19e68.pdf b7f3b8a227a50aac6179c54b22c5c97c PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Mary Teresa Orbegozo, SC and Sister Rosanne Caiazzo, SC Sister Agnes Socorro Ward, SC January 1980 Sister Noreen Neary, SC November 10, 2020 Sr. Agnes Socorro: We had, of course, orphanages. We had, as I recall it, and I may not have the exact number, we had at least three orphanages and they were big orphanages. You don't remember them, either, I don't think. Sr. Rosanne: I just remember seeing [Saint Mary Orphanage in Newark, NJ]. It was still open when I entered. Sr. Agnes Socorro: Yeah. That's still open. Sr. Rosanne: [Saint Joseph’s Orphanage in Totowa, NJ], too. Sr. Agnes Socorro: And, of course. Then another thing we did, I was young when I came and I went to [Holy Cross School in Harrison, NJ]. Do you know where Harrison is? Sr. Rosanne: Yes, Sister. Sr. Agnes Socorro: There was an old sister there. She was then fifty years in the community. She taught the first grade. And one of her duties was that she would go around and visit the sick and the poor, and lay out the dead. It scared [me] to death laying out the dead. I had to go with her. That was my assignment. The Sister Servant told you, "Do this, that or whatever." Sr. Agnes Socorro: And then, I remember in Harrison going upstairs, that you'd think you'd never get to the top. They were so shaky. And she would go in. And of course, she was there so long, she knew them all. And the people knew her and she would ask, as I used to say, she asked them everything. How much money their husband was making? If he wasn't, why wasn't he working? They took it from her. She was an old sister and they knew she was interested. And then, in Harrison at the time, there was Saint Vincent de Paul. Have you read about Saint Vincent de Paul? Sr. Rosanne: Yes, Sister. �Sr. Agnes Socorro: He had Ladies of Charity. Father Fitzpatrick, who was then in Harrison, founded a group of women, which you'd call the Vincentians. They could work and make money for the poor, but they couldn't give out the money. That was up to the sisters. So she would decide, in a way, how much money these would get and all of that. In Harrison, we collected [unintelligible]. Then if a child that anybody would [unintelligible] first communion class would [unintelligible]. Such a one cannot get a first communion dress, we would see that she got it. And things like that. Now that was working with the poor, well I think, in a way, more intimately than you do today. And I remember getting into a scrap when somebody said we did nothing for the poor in those days. Go without dessert, we'd take it over to some poor kid that we knew didn't have any food, because there was no such thing as lunches in the schools. Sr. Mary Teresa: When did you enter the community, Sister? Sr. Agnes Socorro: What? Sr. Mary Teresa: When did you enter? Sr. Agnes Socorro: 1912. Sr. Mary Teresa: 1912. Sr. Agnes Socorro: So, life was different. I mean, in Saint Vincent, you read about the sisters going around with a pot of soup. We didn't go around with a pot of soup, but we went around in the same way and promised them things, like promised them food. And I remember there was one shoe store that if they were [unintelligible] the poor, for lack of a better word, they could go to that shoe store, with a pass from sister, and get shoes. Things are done differently today. But it was done in those days. There's no doubt about that. Sr. Rosanne: You entered at a time when there were a couple of major worldwide issues at hand like World War I. Sr. Agnes Socorro: World War I started at 1914. Sr. Rosanne: �Right. And women's suffrage. Sr. Agnes Socorro: No, there was no such thing as women's suffrage. They were fighting for it. Sr. Rosanne: Fighting for it, right. Were the sisters at all aware of what was happening? Sr. Agnes Socorro: Oh, they were aware. Sr. Rosanne: Yeah. Sr. Agnes Socorro: But like that, for instance, they were very much aware of World War I. They did a great deal of knitting and everything like that, all kinds of work. They could not go out as you might go today. If you're interested in ERA, you'd go around and picket or something. We couldn't do that, of course. Life was different. We were not exactly cloistered. But no woman…And most women didn’t, I'll put it that way. Some women did it, but most women didn't. And people lived more in their homes and life was altogether different. This is, of course, what goes on in my class, raking up fashions and all of that. But then in the Civil War, you see, the Sisters of Emmitsburg and some few of our sisters did go out and nurse in the battlefields. But in World War I you didn't do it. I think, I suppose, there was more ways of getting it done, but the need was not as great. Now, however, we had the flu in 1918. You've heard of the flu. Sr. Rosanne: Yes. Sr. Agnes Socorro: That flu. And some of the sisters from here went to [All Souls Hospital in Morristown, NJ] to help out. Another sister and myself were sent from Harrison to [Saint Elizabeth’s Hospital in Elizabeth, NJ] to help out. We did things like that. But there was not so much going out of the community as there had been in the Civil War. That was a different setup. Know what I mean? Sr. Rosanne: Mm-hmm Yeah. The Congregation then did impress upon you always the Vincentian spirit. Sr. Agnes Socorro: �Oh, yes. You were there for the poor. In fact, when I was missioned in the [Academy of Saint Elizabeth] here, I was in the old generation. You don't remember that, either, but you've heard of us. I was there. And then I was brought up to the Academy and I…Oh, I was in a terrible state. I didn't come to work for the rich, I came to work for the poor. And here I was. No, you were working for the poor. It was impressed on you that you did without, because if this mission that you were on could succeed in saving some money, it was turned right into the Motherhouse for the poor. That's in the old Rule. Hope they have some of those old Rules around some place. Because I mean, this is going to come up – we’re working on the history of the community. Sr. Agnes Socorro: And life was different. Now, things are different in you might go out now and get a job and turn your salary in to the community, for the work of the community. But in going out there, you have to live accordingly and dress accordingly. You don't go without the way the others say. If a Sister gave music lessons and every mission had a Sister giving music lessons…You had them in [Waterbury, CT] too, maybe not in your day, but…You had one lovely saintly woman there. But anyway, that money was not used for that local community. That was sent right to the Motherhouse. So, you see this is all part of life, as we knew it. It's different today. It has to be. Life has changed every place. Sr. Agnes Socorro: I would not say that women were involved in women's rights as they could be today, because of our life. You might be interested, you might want it and all of that, but our life was such. You don't remember when since you could go home. When I first came to the community, if you went home, you had to be back. You couldn't eat at home. But this was not just our community. This was every community. You couldn't eat at home. No more than you could sleep at home, of course. If then you had to be back in the convent at a certain time in the evening, and that did not change, that time in the evening until about 15 years ago. You remember Sister [unintelligible]. When she was a novice she fought for that. Sisters have a longer time in the evening so they could get to know their fathers. They never saw their fathers. They had to be back so soon. So you see, I suppose some of these things were things that were brought from European communities where life was different. And you see, I know. I have visited. There's one French community in Ireland. They bought a big, old estate and they care for epileptic children. They can never go home, or they couldn't when I was there. This was maybe 10 years ago. But their whole family could come and stay right in the convent, which was... You see? But we had no way of putting up a whole family in the convent. We didn't have these big estates. I don't what other social issue besides women's rights was...Sister Mary Cecilia would tell you all the things she knitted, both in World War I and World War II. Sr. Rosanne: What about Mother Xavier, Sister? Sr. Agnes Socorro: �Well, I didn't know her that well. She was an old, old sister when I came. Very short and very frail looking. And her office was where that new council room is, there in the front of the building. Her bedroom was where Sister Mary Canavan's office now is. You know that room. She slept there with Sister Mary Virginia [Burke]. They did not allow her to sleep alone because then she was very old. She was very, very rigid. There's no doubt about that. And I suppose in her way, it was a carry-over from the other communities. You know what I mean? Sr. Agnes Socorro: She did not see the Irish communities going home and things like that. So she never went home herself. In fact, Sister Agnes Paula [Conefrey] used to tell the story that she was going home [to Ireland] about 1908 and Sister Mary Madeleine [Bull] was with her. And they were out in New York harbor on the boat. And Sister Mary Madeleine was down in the stateroom saying her rosary. And Sister said to her, "Will you come up? I want to see the skyline of New York. I’ll never see it again at night." "No, I won't," she said. "Oh, please, do! I’ll say the Rosary all the way across the Atlantic if you come up. Come on." "No," she said. "I won't. I will stay here until we start because we might get sent for to come back." But the first Assistant Mother, Sister Mary Catherine [Nevin], was extremely kind. And I think she was kind of a buffer. You know what I mean? She took care of the kindness part of it, so that the sisters did not feel the rigidness that Mother had. And the next Assistant Mother, [Mother Mary Cecilia Casey], who was later the second Mother, Mother Cecilia was extremely kind. But Mother Xavier used to sit in the back of the chapel in the corner there by the twelfth station. I suppose they put her in there to get her out of the drafts. You see, that chapel was barely finished when I entered. They put her there in the corner and she sat there. She had her little prie dieu there. But she was at Mass each and every morning. It was six o’clock in those days. I remember we were… [Sister Rose Vincentia Bradley] who entered with me…there were five of us, seven of us came from Ireland together. [Sister Mary Alphonsine Coffey] was one of them and Sister Rose Vincentia. They’re both at [Saint Anne Villa] Sister Rose Vincentia and myself, Mother Xavier considered too young to enter. We were 14. She told Sister Virginia Clare and [Sister Francis Xavier Edgeworth] that we would go to [Saint Vincent Academy in Newark, NJ]. And she would see us later on. The others entered. But she sent for us eventually, sometime during the fall, and we came up and there was an old Sister. And I often wish I knew her name, just for the sake of knowing it. She met us up in the hall and she said, "Now, when you go in, Mother Xavier will say to you, ‘Isn’t this place more beautiful than Ireland?’ And be sure to say, ‘Yes.’" Now, there was a lawyer here last week who said she was a shrewd woman. She came here, as you know from the history, with five dollars. She had bought that place from Seton Hall and they didn't give it to her. She bought it for plenty, it cost her plenty. But bit by bit she bought up all this bits of land. And she wanted them. And she had her reasons for wanting. There's one now that they want to sell that opens onto Columbia Road because she felt it would be for the good of the community if we had an opening on Columbia Road. Sr. Agnes Socorro: You'll enjoy this. This lawyer came up and I had to speak to him and he was saying… He said to me, "Well, when you were novices and you went down there in the farm and so on, could you �see the cars on Columbia Road?" I said, "The cars?" He said, "Yes, the automobiles." I said, but there weren't any automobiles in 1920. So, life was slower. I don't know how much formal education she had. But I believe I once asked. But she had an Irish education. And I'm not saying this because I'm Irish. It was a very superior kind of education. They had more of a respect for education than the other people of the world because they couldn't have it. What we can't have, we want. And I think that she could use that education to further the work of this community. She built this house and there was no money. It's a good built building. It's still standing after over 100 years. I look at the trouble they're having with some of these other buildings. So she was, as he said, she was a shrewd business woman. And one wonders where she got that because she did not have any training in this life. They said before she entered [Mount Saint Vincent in New York], she made her living by sewing. So where did she get this? She said it was God's work, all right. Sr. Rosanne: Her value for education too, I think. Sr. Agnes Socorro: Oh, yes. Sr. Rosanne: You pointed out, in the beginning of the [College of Saint Elizabeth]. Sr. Agnes Socorro: Yeah, she allowed them to begin the college. And there were many people in the community against it. They didn't want it started. They thought it shouldn't be done at all. They tried to talk her out of it. A certain faction in the community. But she insisted. She didn't do it quickly, either, if you notice. She took her good time to think it out. And then she started it. And she educated the sisters. Even in those days when, as I say, you couldn't go home and you couldn't eat at home, things like that. What was her name?… [Sister Helen Angela Dorety] Yeah, it was a long time ago. But she sent her out to the University of Chicago for her biology. And they say nobody ever was anyone like Helen Angela with the education she got in biology. She was the one who founded that whole department. I'm not saying that we haven't had good ones since, but this is Mother Xavier's choice. [Sister Marie Jose Byrne] was allowed to go to Columbia for Latin, so that she was far-seeing. It wasn't just the moment she was looking at. And while we entered and you were... In my day, now this had changed in various times, we were postulants three months. We were novices a year, and then we were sent out. We didn't have that much education, you know. But on every mission you were on there was an older sister would take you in the afternoon for [teaching] methods. And you would go out on Saturdays to class. And you came up here every summer to get [state teacher’s certification]. So she foresaw all these things and knew they were needed. [unintelligible] You wonder, as I say, how she did it and why she did it. And she was very wise in her own way and all of that. So I would say that she had a great vision for the Congregation. There's no doubt about that, in every way. And in after years that they closed, for instance, the orphanages; that's one of my big disputes, that we closed the orphanages. I'd rather have a child in an orphanage than in a foster �home. The way they abuse them in foster homes. Of course, this is my opinion, of course. And look at the cost of [unintelligible] Saint Joseph's Hospital [in Paterson, NJ] like it is today. Sr. Agnes Socorro: I remember Saint Joseph's Hospital when it was a little bit of a frame house. And she encouraged them to build the [House of Divine Providence and Home for Incurables in Ridgewood, NJ] that was supposed to be for the dying and the incurables. Now it has turned into a home for the aged. Because if you have it as a home for the dying, it would require a number of nurses and all that. But she founded that. Look at the land she bought up there. And she built that. And I don't know if it’s in Sister Mary Agnes's book [The New Jersey Sisters of Charity by Sister Mary Agnes Sharkey, S.C.] or not. I must look it up some time. Have you ever been in the present home that's up there? Sr. Rosanne: Mount Saint Andrew's? Sr. Agnes Socorro: Yes. Sr. Rosanne: Yes, many times. Sr. Agnes Socorro: Well, the old home was across the street that burnt down while this one was in the state of building. But right down at the foot of the new one, you know what I mean by the new one, the one that's there now, there was a cottage which she bought. In those days, there was a great amount of [tuberculosis] in this community, as there was every place. And of course we lived so close, living in the dormitories, and people got it. And there was in Philadelphia a Doctor Walsh who was very, very famous for his TB treatments. And she would send the sisters to him and he had a sanitarium in White Haven in the Poconos. So she decided that she was going to buy this bit of land and this cottage that was up for sale in Ridgewood. And, she did. And when I went up there, I'd say, roughly speaking about 1960, I used to walk there with a sister. She was the only child. Her parents had a farm up there. I must go back to Bergen County sometime because all I remember about Bergen County is walking through fields and fields and fields and never seeing a person. I would have to go home with her in the morning. She couldn't go home herself. And she would work with them all day. And I would sit in the house. And they were very, very good to me. There was a place that I could lie down. I was only a kid. I wasn’t interested in lying down. And I'd have a book or something. But she bought this place and there was the famous bluegrass of Kentucky. He had been a horseman. He had the bluegrass in the yard. At that time, that was roughly speaking, 1918, there must've been five or six sisters there. They took care of themselves. They even wrote their own death notices. I know. Think of that. �They didn't put the date in, but on the old death notice her name had to be filled in and where you died. They even did that. Oh, and they were talking the other day about some [Sister Rose Bernard Brennan] who’d just come to [Saint Anne Villa] last week. I said, the first one [Sister Rose Bernard Ryan] was the most beautiful person I ever saw. She was beautiful. [unintelligible]. [Mother Xavier’s] plan was to have our own sanitarium up there. In the old Villa [at Convent Station], on that porch that faces the cemetery, notice on the second floor, there's a screened-in porch. For a while [Mother Xavier] had TB sisters there, sleeping all together in the one porch and all of that. She saw that as a need. So, you see, as time went on, there was no further need because they felt TB was conquered, you know. We got rid of the place in Ridgewood. But she saw to things like that. Sr. Rosanne: See that whole area there is Paramus, which is a fairly new community, where Mount Saint Andrew is. It was Ridgewood. Sr. Agnes Socorro: It was Ridgewood, at that time, yes. Sr. Rosanne: So I didn't realize that she had acquired that area up there. I mean, it was during her time. Sr. Agnes Socorro: It was during her time she acquired that. And, you see, the place I stayed in was the old house. And they were old, old people there. They went there... I suppose something like the Little Sisters of the Poor today, you went there and that was it. You died there. And there were people there, wonderful sisters, who just lived for their work. The thing is that this is a busy day because of the college coming back. They have to come into this house and greet the girls. Sr. Rosanne: Oh. I see. That's right. The girls are [unintelligible]. Sister Mary Teresa, do you have any other questions? Sr. Mary Teresa: Well, I think this is the main thing I wanted to ask. Sr. Agnes Socorro: Mother Cecilia was a big woman, as big as [Sister Mary Carita Pendergast]. Dark. An Irish beauty. And, of course, we had the old cap. And in those days the Mother went out in the morning after Mass. The Mother went out of the chapel first, followed by the Assistant Mother, followed by every officer. And we were new in �the transept there, you know. The novices sat in the transept and we said [Sister Mary Cecilia Casey] was Mother Xavier's guardian angel. I never called her anything else Sr. Rosanne: It was interesting, when you mentioned Sister Mary Catherine [Nevin] as being kind. Because when I entered Sister Mary Catherine… Sr. Agnes Socorro: Oh, not this Sister Mary Catherine. Sr. Rosanne: No, I know that. She was also the Assistant Mother when I knew her. Sr. Agnes Socorro: Mary Catherine? Sr. Rosanne: [Sister Catherine Mary McHale] from Boston. But that's who I think when you talk about the [unintelligible] for the sisters. Sr. Agnes Socorro: She was a very kind woman. Sr. Rosanne: Yeah. Sr. Agnes Socorro: But as I said, life was different. And to me, I'm old. They should know that. The changes don't get me down. The same things get me down that would get me down sixty years ago, people are not doing the right thing. But the changes don't get me down. If you're doing the right thing, all right, you've changed. We never changed. That's life. And there were a great many changes in the community. And I think we have to realize that in their day, they were doing more, I think in a way, than we do today in a different way. They couldn't go out the doors. They had to do it from the inside out. For instance, Sunday, you had Sunday school classes in the morning. You counted the money in the afternoon, the parish money. You had then maybe a couple of days a week, you'd have to go to someplace three or four miles away to teach Sunday school. And it was not an easy life. I survived, so it couldn’t have been too… But I mean, you have to realize that you're not comparing. I don't like comparing and saying we're doing more today than then, or they did more then. No, I don't think you should compare. I think you should know it, as we lived it. Sr. Rosanne: So true. �Sr. Agnes Socorro: But then now there's some people, and Sister Carita agreed with me on this, the last meeting we had, some people who say that Mary Agnes's book is inaccurate. Sister Carita agreed with me that it is not inaccurate. There are misprints. She said, "I think she was inaccurate in this way." A man's name, whether it was John or James, meant nothing to her. She would quickly write down Mr. John and it might've been Mr. James. But the main things are right, because I have read it twice lately. There are a few dates and I think they're misprints. For instance, somebody posted a picture. The old Nazareth [novitiate] that I entered, that it was destroyed in 1909. And I said to [Sister Hildegarde Marie Mahoney], who happened to be standing there at the same time, I said, it couldn't have been. I lived in it. The old Nazareth was... Remember where the men's house was? It was on that spot. It was an old frame house that had been the first boys' house [Saint Joseph’s School]. And this is another thing [unintelligible]. [Mother Xavier] sent Sister Mary Paula to Europe to study painting and art. This was roughly speaking, 1909 or 1910. And the boys said to me, maybe this isn't a nice word. I call her shrewd. [Mother Xavier] sent her to Europe. I'm not sure of the date. Was either 1909 or 1910. It was before I entered. All right. She sent with her Sister Mary Julia [Donovan]. Mary Julia had been in another community. She entered a Black community in Baltimore. But that makes no difference. Speaker 3: Was she a Black sister? Sr. Agnes Socorro: No, no. But there were a few other whites entered at the time, but she thought this would be a wonderful sacrifice, you see. She was from Beverly Farms [Massachusetts], outside of Salem. And the Donovans were fairly comfortable. She has a nephew in the Jesuits. He was implicated in this seismograph business and all of that. But anyway, she sent Sister Mary Julia with her to make her study the novitiates in Europe. And one of the things that we know of, she came back and she said that in Europe, and I'm telling the story badly, but before this, the novitiate was in this building. When they built convent wing, we've been sure where that is, the novitiate had a big room, like a big community room, was on the first floor over there. And the novices slept up through the house and corners, wherever. But Sister Mary Julia found out that in Europe, the novitiate was on the motherhouse grounds, but in a separate building. And that's what it should be. Therefore, almost immediately, the boys’ house, the new boys’ house, which is now that school for... You know, the one I mean… was built. And the reason that was built. There's a sister, [Sister Mary Casimir Reynolds]. You wouldn't know her because she was in Salem for years. She was a saint out of heaven. She was one of the tobacco Reynolds. So when her father died, she got quite a legacy. So it was used to build the new boys’ house. My generation calls that the new boys’ house. So the boys were out. She took the boys all together out of the old boys’ house, moved them over there. The old boys’ house was turned into a novitiate. And Sister Mary Julia was made the mistress. So that that was another thing that... Sister Mary Ellen Gleason said something to me, "Were you taught about the history of the community by your mistress?" I said, “Well, I didn't have a mistress in the early days.” Because Sister Mary Julia was one of these who had to be sent away when she got TB. So that she was up in White Haven and there were a couple of women brought in to be Mistress of Novices and they �could not see it because we had to come up, all kinds of weather, to do the charges, to wait on table. And waiting on table meant wait for a six o’clock supper, as well. And we’d go down in the evenings and there was an old fellow around then, who would have an old sled and he'd give us a ride on that. It was a big sled with a horse. But they didn't think that this was wise. So that was when she built [Nazareth novitiate] that was torn down [in 1978]. She built that because that way we would be in keeping with what they were doing in Europe. It would be a separate building on the motherhouse grounds. And that was what they found they had to do when they opened Harper's. Harper's is the present novitiate. You see, of course I blame it on my family. My grandfather lived with us. And if my grandfather was talking, we had to keep quiet. He was my mother's father, but my father would be very insistent that we listen to what he said. So then when I came to the community, that was ingrained in me. And I listened to the older sisters. So some of these things I've gotten from the older sisters. We've had a great many wakes at Convent. And [Sister Mary Rosalita Hyland]. Do you remember Sister Rosalita? She was a music teacher, beautiful woman. Every wake she was in the corner, and I was Circle Angel, so I could be... The Circle Angel was the Sister of Charity to the Academy girls, supposed not to teach. I'd be free during the day, and I’d go in and [unintelligible] and sit there at the wakes. And she would tell me more, things like that. So that some of these things are hearsay to me. So, for instance, she told, me, you don't remember our old dining room was where the sculleries are now. See, they built the new one [unintelligible] the 100th anniversary [unintelligible]. And that dining room... I call them the music rooms because when I entered all of these other rooms were music rooms and they were here. Then there was a passageway. And then there was the dining room. What Sister Rosalita told me that, before the chapel was built, there was no corridor there. These sisters slept in these bedrooms, [Sister Mary Honora Foy] and some people that were wonderful women. They slept in these bedrooms right off the dining room. The kitchen was in the basement. And some of the older Irish sisters would tell us the way they had to work when they came. I'm not saying the others didn't now, but they were speaking for themselves, the way they had to work in the kitchen and whatnot. And when I entered, there were all sisters in the kitchen. We were saying that only the other night. Again, how old the sister... The Sister Rose Bernard who has come to the Villa now had charge. She was in the novitiate with [Mother Josephine Marie O’Brien]. She said she had charge of the dairy down here in the kitchen. And I said, “Do people remember Sister Honora?” She was a wonderful woman, she had charge of the kitchen. These people had no education. But when we were in the old Juniorate, if I asked [Sister Mary Stephanie Bird], who was in charge of the kitchen, for a leg of lamb, she’d say, well now, I'll give you this size and this will feed so many people. Now I’ll bet you the man that's getting a big salary down there couldn't tell you that. These people had had no education. So that God took care of His own. That's the only way you can account for it. Sr. Mary Teresa: That's beautiful, Sister. That's beautiful. Sr. Agnes Socorro: �But as I say now, don't start out to compare. We were not better than. Maybe individually, some of them were better than, because I have lived with saints. I've lived with real saints in this community. But it's just individuals that were better. Sr. Mary Teresa: Yes. Thank you, Sister, for the time you gave us. We wanted to take some pictures, somewhere there. Sr. Agnes Socorro: You don't want a picture of me. That wasn't on, was it? Sr. Mary Teresa: Yeah. Sr. Agnes Socorro: Oh, my goodness. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ward, Sister Agnes Socorro, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Orbegozo, Sister Mary Teresa , S.C.; Caiazzo, Sister Rosanne , S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:37:11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Agnes Socorro Ward, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Ward, Sister Agnes Socorro, S.C.; Mother M. Xavier Mehegan; Holy Cross School, Harrison, NJ; Convent Station, NJ; tuberculosis; Ireland Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's early years in Harrison and at Convent Station; stories of Mother M. Xavier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ward, Sister Agnes Socorro, S.C.; Orbegozo, Sister Mary Teresa , S.C.; Caiazzo, Sister Rosanne , S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 1980 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Agnes Socorro Ward remembers her early years as a Sister of Charity and recalls stories of Mother M. Xavier Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant January 1980 Education Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/e21bbbafbe7f0eb4bddb90df339ad43f.jpg 73ee666d4009aa4a58b72d0e3144896d https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/d8de700192d8b1f95e52583f6e0fbd95.mp3 aa734d5e5e51f9e7e1785380c15ddeb0 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/d8b64a9c20bc804cac540cc812a95bd1.pdf 020698e7763c09d03573bc552812afda PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Francis Maria Cassidy, SC Sister Mary Josepha Murphy, SC July 1, 1983 Sister Noreen Neary, SC November 6, 2020 Sr. Francis Maria: I'm visiting down at Saint Anne Villa with Sr. Mary Josepha. We're sitting in a very bright room. Is this the back of the house, Sister? On the back of the house…is a very pretty pink spread on a pretty blue bed and all around is color and brightness, and of course, the brightest thing in the room is Sister herself. Sister was an [inaudible]. [Archbishop Robert Seton] was at Convent Station in his retirement and she had the privilege, and I think she regards it as a privilege, of serving him in the dining room. And she's agreed to recall a few of her memories. Sister, what year did you become a Sister of Charity? Sr. Mary Josepha: January 6, 1926. And the day I got the habit, I went to take care of the Archbishop, and I was with him until he died, that one full year. I always considered the Archbishop a lonely person with no friends, except the college girls [students at the College of Saint Elizabeth] who were very nice to him. And they used to take walks with him sometimes on the grounds. He was very thin, medium height, white hair, a long nose, just points for teeth. He was a very quiet man, wellspoken, courteous. Always wore a cassock with a cape edged in red and a red skull cap. I think he was quite eccentric in his thoughts and words. Although he was 87 years old, beginning to get a little senile, he never missed saying Mass. I had nothing outstanding in my dealings with the Archbishop, except maybe a few interesting and humorous incidents. For instance, we had rules and customs that if we were in a room with a member of the other sex, we must [never] close the door. Well, our Mistress of Novices came over one day to see how I was [inaudible] me. Sr. Francis Maria: What was the door? Sr. Mary Josepha: The door out to the room where I used to sit and wait for him and then a door out into the hall; there were two doors. Sr. Francis Maria: Up to his room? Sr. Mary Josepha: No, no, downstairs in his private dining room. So the next day, I opened the door a few inches, the Archbishop noticed it and said, "Close that door." So I went over and I closed the door with a bang and then opened it softly; his back was to the door and he didn't notice. �Sr. Francis Maria: You played a trick on him. Sr. Mary Josepha: I really pleased everyone. Sr. Francis Maria: It's still there? Sr. Mary Josepha: It's the dining room in the front hall. As you come in the main front door, to the left there's a small room that I used to sit in and then a very large dining room that was his room, no one else used it. Downstairs, that was his room, no one else used that room. I had to tell the chef each day what to prepare for him. So I'd ask him and I'd say, "Now, Your Grace, what do you want for dinner tomorrow?" And he never called me Sister. "Josepha, a gentlemen eats to live, he doesn't live to eat," so he'd never tell me. Then he usually had like mashed sweet potatoes, which he called Carolinas, with a poached egg. And this day he said, "Take this back to the chef, it's terrible." So I took it into the next little room, put it on the radiator, took a fork, mixed it up a bit and took it back. Sr. Mary Josepha: He had it at noon time and he had his dinner at night, and he always came dressed for dinner with his white cuffs, and that was dinner. Now, I'd bring him a tray at noon time, then I would go back. He would like to detain me, but I used to try to get out as fast as I could. One day he was down and his dictation, I had to write into his, what was it? Sr. Francis Maria: His diary. Sr. Mary Josepha: His diary. And a few weeks ago, 57 years later, I read it, his dictation with my name signed to it, Novice, that I would promise to take care of him, et cetera, I forget what the rest said. And also, sometimes, when I would go back for the tray, he wouldn't be there, but it'd have a note on it. I can remember one note in particular that the soup tastes like dishwater, but sometimes he liked his lunch, but sometimes. But he'd leave a note and I kept putting them in my very large pocket. And one day I'm in the classroom, cleaning out my pocket and [Sr. Rita Dolores Simons] came in and said, "Oh, you're cleaning your desk?" I said, "No, my pocket." She said, "Well, what's this?" I said, "It's Arch...", so she gathered them all up and put them in the basket. I probably would have done the same. Sr. Francis Maria: Wouldn't it be nice if we had them today? Sr. Mary Josepha: �They were his writing. Sr. Francis Maria: Sister Josepha, when you brought him his tray, you brought that up to his bedroom? Sr. Mary Josepha: Yes. He had a bedroom and a sitting room. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes, would you tell us where that was? Sr. Francis Maria: Sister Josepha, toward the close of his life, I believe that the Archbishop had an accident and then became ill. Would you tell us something about what you remember of his illness and his death? Sr. Mary Josepha: Yes, he broke his hip and the complications set in. And this particular day [Sister Mary Ellen Mangan] said, "Don't go to class today, we're going over to see the Archbishop." So we went over and in his room that he used as his living room, a sitting room, there were a group of sisters were sitting in there, just outside of his bedroom. And when we went into his bedroom, [Mother Mary Alexandrine Jackson] was there and a nurse sitting beside his bed. Now, Mother Alexandrine and Sr. Mary Ellen blessed him with Holy Water. They came over and told me to sit beside his bed until I was sent for. So that was about three o'clock in the afternoon. And I sat there until six. And during that time, he came to once and he spoke, but I couldn't understand what he said. But the nurse leaned down and said, "He recognized you and he wants you to hold his hand." "Oh," I said, "I couldn't do that, I'm a novice." But she said, "He's an old man and he's dying." Well, he died the next morning, about 10 o'clock. And that evening, the day he died, I was on my way back to the novitiate from the dining hall. The sisters met me in the hall and took a hold of me by the arm and said, "Oh, come on, come into the parlor there, the Archbishop's body is going to be in review." So I went in the parlor with them and there were about 25 professed sisters standing there, the folding doors were closed, and I was a little nervous, being a novice, I felt I didn't belong there, especially when I saw Sr. Rita, who was over the education in the novitiate. Finally, the folding doors opened and Sr. Rita Dolores said, "We'll let his friend go in and kneel and say the first prayer." So I went in, and I still remember how he was laid out on a couch. He was in a lace alb with a skull cap on, and beside him, there was a large vase, a very tall vase, with American beauty roses in. Sr. Francis Maria: That was a lovely tribute, wasn't it, to be called Archbishop Seton's friend? Mother Seton must have loved you. You became more familiar with Mother Seton as the years went on. Sr. Mary Josepha: �I didn't tell about going to Rome, did I? Sr. Francis Maria: No, would you tell us a little something about the beatification, Sister? Sr. Mary Josepha: Well, the Archbishop used to speak about Mother Seton, but I didn't know too much about Mother Seton until I went out on a mission, and I really listened to him very politely, and he spoke frequently of his parents, also. But I didn't recall…he used to talk about Seton annex that he was so happy that that was named after his grandmother. Also, he gave a desk, told me about the desk he gave to Mother Alexandrine that had belonged to Mother Seton. Now, when I went out on a mission and I read and knew about the canonization of Mother Seton, and we received word from the provincials that they would send one from each province. And if she was interested, just send her name in. Sr. Francis Maria: Now, Sister, this would have been in the 1960s, so it was probably the beatification, was it? Sr. Mary Josepha: No, it was the canonization. Sr. Francis Maria: It was the canonization? Sr. Mary Josepha: In 1975. Sr. Francis Maria: I see. Sr. Mary Josepha: It was the canonization. Sr. Francis Maria: Did you not go to the beatification? Sr. Mary Josepha: I didn't go to the beatification because the principal of the school I was in [Sister Mary Angelina Meyers of Saint Cecilia School, Englewood, NJ] wanted very much to go, and she asked me. She said if I went she felt she couldn't go, so I didn't go. But later at the canonization, I didn't think much, when they said someone, if you want to put your name in. But one day when I was on my way to school with my books in my hand, I walked past the telephone booth and I just had an inspiration. I went in and called [Sister Therese Dorothy Leland]. I said, "Sister Therese, would �you put my name in that basket for the canonization of Mother Seton?" Then I went on to school and said a little prayer; I said, "Now, Mother Seton, you know I took care of your grandson the last year of his life, so maybe you could send me to the canonization.” Sr. Mary Josepha: Nights later, the telephone rang at 10 o'clock. Sister said, "It is Sr. Therese Dorothy." Ooh, I said, "What would she ever want me for at 10 o'clock at night?" So I went to the telephone and Sr. Therese said, "Are you seated?" I said, "Yes." She said, "You won the trip to Rome." So I feel that Mother Seton sent me. Sr. Francis Maria: Do you pray for Archbishop Seton, Sister? Do you think about him sometimes? Sr. Mary Josepha: I do think about him, but I don't say that I pray too much, but I do once in a while. When I think of Mother Seton and that's…I never think of Mother Seton without thinking of the Archbishop. And he would speak to me about his father; I wish I had paid more attention to it. But I never considered it a bother. And I was never impatient with him. Sr. Francis Maria: That's a nice memory. Sister, I know that you didn't encourage long conversations with him because your Mistress of Novices certainly gave you your orders, I'm sure about that. But apart from the things you've already told us, do you ever remember any little things that he said to you or anything you said to him or did for him? Sr. Mary Josepha: Well, I had very many interesting and humorous things we used to talk about them when I went over to the novitiate. I don't think I spoke about the dessert, did I? Sr. Francis Maria: No. Sr. Mary Josepha: No. He used to want me to sit down and have dessert with him, which I never did. This particular evening, he had delicious cake and he tried hard to have me sit down, but I didn't do it. After he left, [Sister Ursulina McKeon] came over from the other side to help me carry his dishes over. But before we did it, we finished the cake. And also Sr. Francis Maria: Do you remember that dessert, I suppose, better than almost any other dessert? Sr. Mary Josepha: Oh, yeah, I always remember. It was the only time I ever ate his dessert. Did I talk about the notes…I did…on the tray? �Sr. Francis Maria: Yes, you did. You told us about the notes that he used to leave for you on the tray, and how we wish we had them today. Sr. Mary Josepha: When I went in for his tray one day, he asked me to go into the next room and get him a brush and wet it and a hand mirror. I said to myself, "Well, now, if he wants me to brush his hair, I'm not going to do it." I went out, and I held the mirror up and he said, "You have a spot on your cape. Now, you know, when you wait on the Archbishop, you mustn't have any spots.” Well, I removed my spot, picked up his tray and returned with it. Sr. Francis Maria: He was very fastidious. Now, did you ever attend his Mass, Sister, in the chapel? Sr. Mary Josepha: Oh, yes. I went to his Mass and when we were, and one time in particular, there were four of us in the band, four postulants. And I guess Sr. Mary Ellen didn't know what to do with us this time, she said, "Go over to the Archbishop's Mass." He said the Mass on Our Lady's altar, way over to the side. When he turned around, he was very happy to see that he had an audience…he didn't usually. And I think it was the Feast of St. Peter's Chair at Rome, because he saw when he had an audience, he gave us a homily. Now, we were kind of young and just entered, and we really giggled a little bit, we thought it was quite something for him to give us a homily. We went back to the novitiate, we told Sr. Mary Ellen we giggled, and she said, "Well, that was all right." Sr. Francis Maria: She was understanding. But he did like the young, didn't he, Sister? I think that he didn't like the idea of growing old himself; no one does. But I think he liked to surround himself with the young and the happy. Sr. Mary Josepha: He was always happy if the college girls would stop and talk to him and sometimes they'd walk around the grounds with him. And they were very, very kind to him. Even occasionally they went into his living room and he showed them different things that he had, but that was his real. Oh, he liked [Mother Mary Benita Kane]. Now, Mother Benita was a librarian then in the big library. And he used to get the Times every day. And I used to give it to Mother Benita when he finished the Times. But he did like Mother Benita; she was Sr. Benita then. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. Well, that's a very nice thing to recall. Sister, you said he used to walk with the college girls. I know his diary mentions many times the girls coming to visit him and he'd mention them by name and he would look out the window and see the [Academy of Saint Elizabeth] girls returning and he'd feel lonesome when they'd leave at the end of the summer. Also, I think they used to escort him to movies that were held over in the auditorium. Did he ever speak to you about being lonely? �Sr. Mary Josepha: Yes, because he'd say that he would try to stop people to give them, and they would just go right by. And we did have little conversations, never too long. But another time it really didn't, no one just sympathizes with it, but he had these points for teeth. And one time he called me because he bit his lip and it was bleeding and he wanted me to look at it and he said, "Now, look at it, feel it." I said, "No, I don't have to feel it, Your Grace, I can see it." But you see, he was just looking for a little sympathy. Sr. Francis Maria: Yes. He was probably a little frightened, too, and wanted someone to give him a little bit of attention and take care of that for him. And you were so sweet and young with him. Now, Sister, did he use a cane? Sr. Mary Josepha: No. He didn't use any cane, he used to shuffle along. You could hear him come along the hall shuffling. But if I remember rightly, I don't think he had eyeglasses. I'm sure he didn't have eyeglasses and he didn't use a cane. He walked slowly. He used to go to Morristown once in a while, and he'd hire a car and take him to Morristown and he'd come back with boxes of candy and jars of jelly for me to put away for him. And one time he gave me a half a pound of candy. He said, "I'd give you a pound, but I know the Mistress of Novices will take it from you." So, you know, although we had plenty of candy in the novitiate. Every once in a while, he'd give me a book and different things and I hesitated and I said, "Sr. Mary Ellen, what will I do if he wants?" She said, "You take anything he gives you." Sr. Francis Maria: He knew all about the inner workings of the things, but he was kind. Sr. Mary Josepha: He was very kind. Sr. Francis Maria: He was lonely. Sr. Mary Josepha: He just wanted a little attention and someone to speak to him. Sr. Francis Maria: Well, thank you, Sr. Josepha, for sharing those memories of Archbishop Seton with us. They're memories, of course, that no one but yourself has. There are other sisters who remember other things, but these are your personal memories of him. Thank you very much, Sister. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Murphy, Sister Mary Josepha, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:17:36 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Mary Josepha Murphy, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Murphy, Sister Mary Josepha, S.C.; Mother Seton; Archbishop Robert Seton Description An account of the resource Description of Sister's interactions with Archbishop Robert Seton during her novitiate year Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Murphy, Sister Mary Joseph, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 1, 1983 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister M. Josepha Murphy describes her interactions with Archbishop Seton Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant July 1, 1983 Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/53676e44aeecfbeee37f74c70531c4e7.jpg df4397f8e24e73d88d3e3e8919b01cca https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b4da064b12e781bbf6c244db4d6658ea.pdf 5c78eb0d3f7b244442ed4360be72d24d PDF Text Text Interviewer: Interviewee: Date: Editor: Date edited: Sister Mary Ellen Gleason, SC Sister Louis Marie Bryan, SC January 26, 1998 Sister Noreen Neary, SC October 28, 2020 Sister Mary Ellen: Sister Louis, perhaps we could talk about the educational preparation that the sisters who volunteered to serve in the Virgin Islands received. Sister Louis Marie: That is not exactly an easy question for me to answer. [I enrolled in] Saints Peter and Paul School [in Saint Thomas, Virgin Islands] in 1933 and my first encounter with the sisters was to have them prepare me for first communion with Sister Gertrude Agnes [Goode]. I was in the public schools, first and second grades. And in third grade, I went to Sts. Peter and Paul School and was educated by the Sisters of Charity from third grade to eighth grade. My experience with the sisters was that they were excellent teachers. They were excellently prepared to give me what was truly a grammar school education, not just elementary. And I know that because the reading and writing skills, particularly that they taught me, have lasted me my entire life. I remember learning how to diagram sentences and to really understand how to read and how to write, to comprehend whatever you read and to write, perfect grammar. We graduated in eighth grade and we had only from first to eighth grade in those days. And when I left Catholic school, we went to the one public high school in the Virgin Islands…in St. Thomas, the Charlotte Amalie High School. And those of us who had come up from Sts. Peter and Paul were head and shoulders above the majority of the class. That's not to say the others weren't well educated, but we seemed to have been a touch above the public school. And we had excellent teachers in the public high school, excellent. So that when we went on from there to the college, we were very well prepared. But as everyone knows, the preparation has to begin in elementary school and grammar school. So, to answer your question, my guess would be based on my experience that they were eminently well prepared. Sister Mary Ellen: I see. Then, when did you leave the Virgin Islands? Was it immediately after high school? Sister Louis Marie: You mean for entrance into the community? Or what? Sister Mary Ellen: Even before entrance… Sister Louis Marie: OK, I left the Virgin Islands in 1945. And graduated from high school in June 1945 and left the islands in August 1945. 1 �Sister Mary Ellen: I see. And then you came to the United States…I mean to study… Sister Louis Marie: I began my undergraduate education at New York University, the School of Education in Washington Square, NY, but that I had to terminate the beginning of the second semester freshman year because I had a serious eye problem which flared up and I had to withdraw from school for half a year. In September 1946 I transferred to the undergraduate college of liberal arts at Howard University in Washington, DC and studied there with a major in sociology and a minor in economics, then graduated cum laude in 1949 with an AB in Liberal Arts, Sociology. Sister Mary Ellen: OK, and then I know you entered the congregation in the 1950s, so there's a gap… Sister Louis Marie: There is… Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: So, were you out working…at that time? Or did you do more studying? Did you… Sister Louis Marie: Well, immediately on graduation from Howard University College of Liberal Arts, I returned to the Virgin Islands and worked as a child welfare worker in the Department of Social Welfare. Then I realized that I wanted to do social work, but I didn't have nearly the educational preparation to do that. I had been assigned as a child welfare worker to work with dependent or neglected or delinquent children…a mixed bag. And I loved the children, but I felt so inadequate to their needs. At the same time, the government of the Virgin Islands was just getting the extension of the public assistance program to the islands and had just established a Division of Child Welfare and they would pay for a master's degree in social work on the condition that the applicant would work a year for each thousand dollars they paid. Well, it was right down my alley because l had wanted to work at home. So I went to what was then The New York School of Social Work. It is now the Columbia University School of Social Work and it was a wonderful experience. The school was located in the Carnegie mansion at 91st Street and Fifth Avenue. Yes, it was ideal for studying. So, I thoroughly enjoyed that master's level program and, for my master's thesis, I chose to write a history of the development of public welfare in the Virgin Islands because we had been owned by Denmark for two hundred and fifty years and our... although we were an American territory and we had the American public welfare system, the overtones, the attitudes and even some of the held-over programs reflected the Scandinavian approach to social welfare. So that thesis was a joy to do. A very useful piece of work. So then, I went home on completion of that and got my job back, first in child welfare, but 2 �then pretty soon I was asked to be a Supervisor of Public Assistance. So, I was in social work on the islands and enjoying it very much when low and behold in 1955, January 3rd, the newspaper carried an announcement that the United States had extended its Fulbright Scholarship program to the Virgin Islands and people could apply. I had a master's degree. I was free and single, uncommitted and I wanted to go to Europe. So, I applied for a Fulbright Scholarship to go to Denmark to study the Scandinavian social welfare system and programs and to see what tie-ins there were related to the islands and our systems. I was awarded a Fulbright and left for a year's study in Denmark and that was exciting. It was an independent study program. I went with other Fulbright scholars who were in different fields and we all, for the first month, studied Danish language, Danish history, Danish culture and had field trips to enhance that. I lived in a student residence with a Danish speaking student, so the language experience was real for me. I was able to use it and use it fluently. And then I planned my study with the help of professional social workers over there to research the literature and to visit different program sites. So that as I read about care for the elderly, for instance, I could go to a facility that cared for the elderly and see how it was carried out. It was a fascinating experience. So I did that piece of research then after the study period ended, I toured Europe with some other students for two months or so. Then I got home and went back to Social Welfare Department and the very next year, 1957, I petitioned to enter the Sisters of Charity and was accepted. That brings me into entrance and the studying didn't stop there. Sister Mary Ellen: I know you had some very rich experiences after you had entered the Sisters of Charity where you could use a lot of this educational background you already had… Sister Louis Marie: So I entered [the Congregation] with a master's degree in social work and my first assignment was to teach in the Juniorate…which is a preparatory school for girls…and that was a little bit funny. I had to teach intermediate algebra and solid geometry because my high school transcript had showed good marks in math. But I wasn't a math major, so that was a bit of a challenge. And I did my best with a lot of help from Sister Barbara Garland who was a novice. But the algebra course was for elective students and they were very bright. I think they knew more about it than I, but we managed. After my year of novitiate I was asked to teach in the sociology department [of the College of Saint Elizabeth] and that was much more in line with what I felt able to do competently. I taught student nurses and I taught the junior professed sisters’ Saturday classes. After I made final vows, my first mission was to St. Mary's Hospital [in Passaic, NJ] to work in the Child Center. But I was out of teaching and back in natural social work. But this time it was clinical social work. And my clinical preparation had not been much because on the master’s level I was being prepared for child welfare work for the broader scope, rather than narrow clinical. There were two very fine clinics, one for child guidance, emotionally 3 �disturbed children and work with their parents as well, and the other was for retarded persons in the Bergen and Passaic County areas, diagnostic service and some counseling. Both clinics were staffed with top-notch specialists and the diagnostic work over at the retarded children's clinic was hooked right into St. Mary's Hospital so you could get a full complement of medical and clinical work along with psychological and social study. That was a most enriching experience. But I was a sort of the junior member on the team, if you will. The only religious…maybe the only Catholic even. Certainly the only Black woman…and not, as I said, trained for psychiatric social work. But then I did a lot of course work at a mental health center in New York and that was very, very helpful. So I had a rich, I'd say almost about twelve years actual training and preparation and experience in clinical work. And at the center, we worked as a team with a child psychiatrist, clinical psychologist and psychiatric social worker, so it was one of the richest experiences I could have dreamed of. Well, St. Mary's decided that we would develop an inpatient unit, so the child center would be closed in favor of inpatient and that's where I felt that, look, if I'm going to be part of this, I need to be up and running with everybody else. So I asked and received permission from the Congregation to work towards a doctor of social welfare. I applied to Smith College School of Social Work because they had a very good clinical program and my application was accepted, but then I was invited up for a personal interview and that did not go well at all. When I went up, the atmosphere was very, very cool. I didn't feel welcome at all. And the people who interviewed me, the first woman who interviewed me made it quite clear that if I were going to attend there as a student in the doctoral program, I would have to wear secular clothes. Well, that didn't sit well with me at all. I, for me, wearing the habit of Sister of Charity was important. The community wasn't requiring me to wear a habit. We were free to wear what we chose. And it was my choice to wear a habit and veil – deliberately so because I had felt from my clinical practice at St. Mary's Child Center that the habit made a difference with people with emotional problems. For some persons, the habit reassured them. They felt they knew what a nun was and that I could be trusted with their innermost secrets and pains and worries and so on. For other people, the habit was a…not a deterrent, but a stimulus. They would be angry and they would be…you know, and the anger would come forth because of whatever feelings they had about religion or habits or nuns or whatever…things as being Black, some people would react to that. Anyway, I was not about to change my choice to suit Smith. And furthermore, I wasn't sure they wanted me because they were kind of derogatory and, you know, they said if you need a wardrobe, we could give you one… Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, dear… Sister Louis Marie: Yes, so I figured, well, this I don't need. So I came back and decided I was not going to Smith because I wanted to wear my habit and so I reapplied to Columbia, my alma mater. And although it was late in the day, Columbia was into taking black students in their doctoral program because Columbia was sitting on the edge of Harlem and making a big push to include more minorities in their student body. So, I got in with no trouble. The only thing 4 �was, Columbia's program was not "clinical." I could make it in case work, but it was not as highly clinical. But it was a good program. But more important was God's handling this because when I went to Columbia, I decided to live at the International House where I had lived as a secular on the master's level and where I had loved the experience. So, I went to International House, habit and all, and found there a delightful sister, a Sister of Saint Ann, a native of India. Anyway, she was bright as anything. She already had a Ph.D. in economics, but to teach in India, she needed a Ph.D. or some education courses, so she was going to teach in Pelham…Sister Mary Benjamin was her name. She was in habit, too. And we got to be great friends and we got to be accepted at “I House” as two little nuns… “I House,” at the same time, had changed in composition from when I'd been there in the early 1950s…There were many more Africans and Asians and…it always was international…the preponderance in earlier years had been European. So now there are African Americans and everything. So, of course, we had a Black caucus going. We made a contribution there. But at school, at Columbia, the campus now was moved up from out of the Carnegie mansion and on to the Morningside Heights campus. And they had, on the master's level, a very active Black caucus, a Black students’ organization and the few Blacks of us who were on a doctoral level met with them because they needed lots of help. Many of them had been admitted without the kind of solid preparation you need…particularly communication skills, so we would tutor them and make weekend retreats with them. I, then, got an orientation that I had not had when I came to the Sisters of Charity in the 1950s. I was on this campus [the Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth] when you saw very few blacks. Very few…even in service positions. And there was one other Black sister, Lorena Tyson. And then when I went to St. Mary's Hospital…the clients who were from around there were very few Blacks. So I had not been attuned to the Black situation really. But when I went to “I House” and back to Columbia and met the Blacks there…it was the education I needed much more than a clinical education to put me in touch with the world that was. And…it was the late 1960s…and right around that time, the National Black Catholic Clergy Caucus got organized in April '68 and the National Black Catholics Conference in August '68. So, by that time, I was finding out who I am as a Black religious woman and it was a marvelous gift from God. I mean, how the pieces fit together…unbelievable. So with Afro studies, the course work was good, but the living experience was infinitely more important. And I finished the course work in two years and had a dissertation to do and I was really tired of being a student then. And my job at St. Mary's…I left because I thought I was going to have go into the inpatient psychiatric work. My job was no longer existent. And one time I visited Convent Station and [Sister Hildegarde Marie Mahoney, president of the College of Saint Elizabeth] said, "I wish you were free." I said, "Why?" She said, "Because we need somebody for the Upward Bound program." And I said, "I am free." So I came back to Convent as a Director of the Upward Bound program, succeeding Sister Lucille Anne [Egan] and I was beautifully prepared for it. And it was a thrilling and exciting experience and the program was one of the finest in the region. I mean, we were rated as the third best for many years. And it faced many challenges. We ran an all-girls program, working with "disadvantaged" minority students, mostly Black from inner-city Newark. And 5 �then, after a few years, the government decided that the programs had to be co-ed. We either would run a co-ed program of get out of the [program]. So, I prayed a lot…and was consulted and the President of the College and government agreed we could do co­ed program. So I prayed mightily. The program would be co-ed, but the college would remain single sex. So we ran it and we ran it successfully. The women in Santa Rita Hall and the men at [indecipherable]. And it got to be a great program. We lost the funding for it…I do not know why, except that many people in the field thought well, with cycle sight of our ten years that it was time for somebody else... I moved from Upward Bound to the Educational Opportunity Fund directorship then and the person who succeeded me at Upward Bound failed to get funding for the program. So, I moved to the EOF briefly... maybe about a year…and then was invited to go home to the Virgin Islands. Anyway, for my doctoral dissertation then, since I had finished the course work and had worked with Upward Bound, I got permission to do a study on what impact the Upward Bound program had on students who were coming from inner-cities north at the time of Black liberation. The study was to explore which influence would exert more influence on young people. The Black Liberation Movement – they were in the thick of it…in Newark…shattering bombs and everything during the Black Revolution – or Upward Bound. Upward Bound was an invitation to them to join the establishment, you know, to become part of the mainstream. And Black Liberation was not going that route. So, it was exciting to work with my own measuring instrument and everything. I got to study population, not just from our program, but from Princeton, Rutgers and our college segment which had been initially for women. Princeton had been initially all men. Rutgers was always co-ed, so it was good. Anyway, the study showed that more people responded to the establishment poll than the other poll. Anyhow, it was a good study. And students in the social work program in the islands have used both the master's thesis and the doctoral dissertation as research documents for some of their studies. So that's gratifying. Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, of course it is. Sister Louis Marie: Anyway, I got an invitation to go home and I was given permission to accept it. And my first invitation was to serve as a member of the parish team at Saints Peter and Paul. And I said to the pastor, a native of the Virgin Islands, "I haven't lived in a parish for the last twenty years. I don't even know what…" He said, "You don't have to know." He said, "You'd be on my team and you'll just do it." The Congregation asked for something in writing, so he sent a list of ten things. He said, "You can do any, all or none of these." And so I went home and was winging it. And that pastor got changed the next spring. Sister Mary Ellen: What were some of the things you had to do... that he had on that list to do? Sister Louis Marie: Develop a community in the western end of the island. People who lived out west were coming up to the cathedral and he thought maybe it was time to develop a new parish down there…develop some kind of community. So we used to have weekend Masses 6 �and [unintelligible], but the people really did not want that. They lived down there but they worked in town and they wanted to be part of the cathedral. Some of the other things that I did was a prison ministry. Got a group of people who wanted to go to a jail and we went every week and that, too, was a good experience. We would sing and preach the scriptures…pray with them and gosh, what are some of the other things we did? Eucharistic minister, the usual pastoral things. But it didn't go too well because it was not really a team. The pastor was a very strong man and some people…you have to be a team…you have to have a team personality. I don't think he was a team person. So I wasn't integrated into any team. But the bishop of the diocese, [Bishop Edward John Harper of the Diocese of Saint Thomas], had always been addressing having me in a diocese and he had written to the Congregation years before to ask them to let me come, since I was a social worker and they had told him no. So, when I got there and I wasn't too busy after the pastor was transferred, the bishop asked me would I serve as a family life director. He had no family life program. I said, "Sure." And through the bishop, I learned what natural family planning was. He said to me there's a conference on the [Billings Ovulation Method]. I didn't even know what the man was talking about. And would you go? I said, "Sure." So I went to New York and I ran into [Sister Mary Rosalie Curran, SC] who was teaching NFP (Natural Family Planning). And she gave me a crash course and I met big name people in the field and so that started me off on preparation to become qualified as a Natural Family Planning instructor. You had to take special training and I got trained by some of the best people and went back to my diocese. Then one thing led to another. We started a permanent program there and I was asked to show the faculty, in fact to teach them, you know, basic counseling skills that they might be called on to use and I also taught them all about humanity, so that they could be prepared to teach people that. We graduated a lot of human sexuality education for young people in our schools and in the public schools for other church groups and I mean non-denominational groups. That was a big thing then. So, family life apostolate was getting into a lot of church work that required social work skills and at the same time I served on a lot of boards and committees in the civic community, you know, as a good representative for the Church's teaching and as a native and as a woman. So then when our second bishop was appointed, [Bishop Sean O’Malley, OFM Cap.], he asked me to serve as Chancellor for the Diocese. “Now look,” I said, “I only know what a chancery is, Bishop Harper hadn't had a chancery per se. He did his work in his office at the bishop's residence. I helped, as his assistant, but with, you know…” So Bishop O'Malley said, "If I can be bishop, you can be chancellor." [unintelligible] That I was a native and a Black. I was a woman. I was religious. I was a social worker. A combination of many, many things that God had put into my life, you know. So I was placed to be of service and never quite knew... never quite had a job description for chancellor, so it ended up I did whatever the bishop called on me to do. So there then we had Hurricane Hugo. And that knocked St. Croix for a loop. And the Catholic Social Services had gotten a small grant to do a mental health program in St. Croix. And with the hurricane, it could not get started. It was impossible. So Bishop asked me to rewrite the proposal, but to restructure it so that it could be done on St. Thomas. So, I did that 7 �and then began to serve as a head of the mental health program, funded by the government but run by the church. So I did mental health work for a while, using all the background experience and preparation I had ten years ago. And then, what happened next? Next, we got a new bishop. [Bishop Elliot Griffin Thomas], a high school classmate of mine. He was in the public school and he had been at the top of his class and he said when the students came up from St. Peter and Paul, try as he could, he couldn't get further than number three in the line-up. Sister Mary Ellen: I see… Sister Louis Marie: We've been good friends all along. So, his story is fascinating, too. He was a convert from Catholicism. Anyway, Bishop Elliot Thomas is our first Black bishop and from the area and he had been unanimously elected administrator by the priests there until the Pope named him bishop. Well, as administrator, he inherited me as chancellor. I enjoyed immensely working with Bishop Thomas, but then in March 1996, the Catholic Charities of the Virgin Islands ran into some serious problems and Bishop asked me would I be interim director while they tried to get it sorted out. So, I served for a year as interim director and chancellor, and then by 1997 I knew I couldn't do both. So I asked Bishop to relieve me of being chancellor so that I could give full attention to Catholic Charities which so needed what I had to offer. I was a professional social worker, I had a doctorate in social welfare, which wasn't clinical, which is what I needed for this kind of administrative work and so he said, "yes." So, as of March 1997, I am serving as the Executive Director of Catholic Charities in the Virgin Islands. And that brings us up to date. Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, fantastic. I want thank you very, very much, Sister Louis, for sharing all these wonderful experiences. 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bryan, Sister Louis Marie Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Louis Marie Bryan, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Bryan, Sister Louis Marie, S.C.; U.S. Virgin Islands; social work; Black sisters Description An account of the resource Description of her education, her career in social work, her experiences as a Black sister Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bryan, Sister Louis Marie, S.C.; Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 26, 1998 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Louis Marie Bryan, S.C. describes her early life, education and experiences as a Black sister Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant January 26, 1998 Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Social Service https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/8c471fdfa991bd6f5a126d7ebdc945ab.jpg 597f41407b2f2bd2939da11fa4d8d113 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/826f2c158707513c842b130ce4217761.mp3 76a9da6cdddddf2d3c41798aa241345f https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/12c0254e7c9a754d59dc3436d27e6439.pdf 62d65f841f68bc4ed86df97ed4f7320a PDF Text Text Interviewer: Sister Anita Constance, SC Interviewee: Sister Eleanor Maria Pettit, SC Date: 1993 Editor: Sister Noreen Neary, SC Date edited: November 18, 2020 Sr. Eleanor Maria: The thing with Hasbrouck Heights was that it was an accident that Corpus Christi School opened. Now, I don't know if that's funny or not, but in 1928 there were two Father Clarks and a Father Martin. The Father Clarks were brothers. One was in Ridgefield, one was in Hasbrouck Heights. The Ridgefield one and Father Martin, who was in East Orange, both were opening schools and Mother Grata had promised them sisters. But the man [Father Andrew Clark] in Hasbrouck Heights was a little annoyed when he knew they were getting them and he wasn't. He had no school at all. But he went up to Convent and Mother - she told the story - she was busy and she couldn't see him. So she sent word down thinking it was Father John Clark, his brother, that not to worry, he would have his sisters. And she lived up to it. And now, as I look back, I think it was pretty hard. But on the other hand, the Lord was with us, I guess. [Sister Anna Raphael Bradley], who had been in Hoboken for 35 years, brand new superior, and [Sister Mary Avelline Carrigan] and I were novices and they sent the three of us to Hasbrouck Heights. And when we got there, there was no school. There was a Lyceum building and there was an auditorium in there and two cloakrooms, one on either side of the entrance. So Anna Raphael taught the sixth grade in the auditorium. I taught first and second in one of the cloakrooms and Avelline had third and fourth in the other cloakroom. Sr. Anita: It's typical of Sisters of Charity doing with what you have, making do with what you had. Sr. Eleanor Maria: That's right. But it was hard. And we really didn't have a convent. We were renovating a little house, which was in the spot where the school there is. Sr. Anita: Where did you live then? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Well, we stayed ... There were bedrooms in this little house on the upper side, but they were partly furnished. We stayed in the convent, we had in the rectory. And until, maybe it was a week or so before. And my famSr. Anita: Did you eat with the priest or did you have to eat separately? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Housekeepers had us separately. And my mother ... We lived in Newark and my mother used to come over to us. My sister came over, did the wash for us. And it was really very, very hard. We had to get up and have the wash out before we went to school. It was awfully hard, but I don't think we appre- ... Avelline, poor little Avelline, Lord have mercy on her, at Christmas time she �couldn't take it anymore. So she was changed to Roxbury, Massachusetts. Anna Raphael left in June, she was changed to Roxbury, Massachusetts, became Avelline's superior there. And I don't know why I was there for three years, but I was there for three years. Sr. Anita: Well, I guess they thought you were good at what you were doing. Sr. Eleanor Maria: I don't know. I don't know. Well, I had had the first grade in the boys’ house [Saint Joseph School for Boys in Convent Station, NJ], which became the Juniorate after. Sr. Anita: Oh, yeah. Sr. Eleanor Maria: That was the last year they had that open, [Sister Anne Gertrude Coleman] and Mary [inaudible] and I were Sr. Anita: Went to Hasbrouck Heights then… Sr. Eleanor Maria: Novice. We were only novices. Sr. Anita: Were you a novice the three years you were there? Sr. Eleanor Maria: No. I entered in [1927], we got the habit in July ‘27. And then in September, we went down to the boys’ house. And the following September that we went to, 1928, we went to Hasbrouck Heights. Sr. Anita: As a novice. Sr. Eleanor Maria: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sr. Anita: And then you taught as a novice, made your vows and went back. Sr. Eleanor Maria: Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then I was already there for three years, and then I went to [Mount Carmel School in Ridgewood, NJ]. But it was hard. But as you look back now… �Sr. Anita: What was hard about it? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Hmm? Sr. Anita: What was hard about it? Sr. Eleanor Maria: My Lord, we had to teach school, work, do our housekeeping, everything. We had nothing. And we had finally had it ready for sister came after, it was only two months. Because she left when Anna Raphael did, that came and cooked for us after. My mother couldn't come over and live with us, but she came over. Sr. Anita: Because you were working from scratch, right? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Yeah. Oh yeah, we had nothing. But we had no chapel, but he was putting a little chapel in the house, which was a God-send. And we had problems there. Sr. Anita: That's all right, only I hear it. Sr. Eleanor Maria: Oh. I think he was a little unfortunate. He used to have his problems. And sometimes he'd be very kind to us and another time he would be ... he'd come in and shut the heat off on us. And we had to be in school at 8:30. Some mornings we didn't have Mass until eight o'clock and we'd have to get over to school. And then I used to leave at 11:30 to ... We fixed the dinner the night before, some of the things. And then I came over at 11:30 and cooked what had to be cooked and really had a dinner at night. But it was, now as I look back, I'm glad it happened, because it certainly gave you something that ... I think it did, it made you a little stronger, I guess. Sr. Anita: Like a fortitude of forbearance. Sr. Eleanor Maria: Yeah. Right. But you didn't think of it that way at that time, we were too young. Well, I was 22 when I entered. I wasn't a baby and I had worked, for which I'm grateful. But then after the three years, things went on normally. But it wasn't easy. And I think the people in Bergen County at that time weren't too happy to have a Catholic school. They weren't ready for it then. �Sr. Anita: Oh, really? Was it one of the first ones in the area? Sr. Eleanor Maria: I think so. I think it was. There was no Teterboro, no nothing, anything there. It was all farmland, all farmland. Even Ridgewood, when I went to Ridgewood. We taught Sunday school in Glen Rock and Paramus and in Midland Park up that way. There were no schools there at all, and that was 1930, 27, 20, 30. In early 30s. Sr. Anita: If you were to say, like your experience in Hasbrouck Heights, how would you look at it as really a typical experience of the Sisters of Charity life? How do you think that that would be so typical of what Sisters of Charity would get into or would be their kind of a ministry or experience? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Well, I think it was a good thing, a good ministry. And I think once they realized what it was, it was ... I'm grateful I had it, to be honest with you. And that was just the first couple of- And then Avelline and I were friends from the novitiate. And when she left, I was uptight. Then after that [Sister Margaret Francis McAllister] came, and after that [Sister Therese Concilio Carlin] came. And in those three years we had the two superiors, [Sister Stella Maris McGaughey] was our superior after Anna. And she was a poor little sister, she was a beautiful [inaudible] years after. Sr. Anita: So this was like the pioneer days of the community. Sr. Eleanor Maria: I guess. Well, I think, look, she was a lot older than that. But I'm sure a lot of the sisters had a harder time then. Yeah. But I always felt it was kind of accidental that it opened, but God permitted it and He wanted it because that's one of the nicest places we have today. Sr. Anita: But I guess that priest would have prayed, “Providence can provide, Providence did provide, Providence will provide.” Sr. Eleanor Maria: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. Sr. Anita: He certainly must've felt he pulled a good one when he walked out of it. Who was the Mother then? Sr. Eleanor Maria: [Mother Mary Grata Mullaney], the greatest Mother we ever had. �Sr. Anita: Was she wonderful? Sr. Eleanor Maria: God, she was the greatest one. Sr. Anita: Why was she good? Sr. Eleanor Maria: Kind and thoughtful. My father died, I went home while I was in Hasbrouck Heights. I made my vows in July and my father died June 6th. And I went home for my first visit to his funeral and we weren't allowed to do really anything in those days. But my mother said to ... I wasn't allowed to go to the cemetery. He's buried up in Connecticut. And she asked me if she thought I could get permission after November 1st, I had buried my dad, if I could go up to the visit the grave in Norfolk, Connecticut. And Stella Maris said, "Hey, write to Mother and ask her." I wrote to her and she wrote me a letter within three days saying ... My mother was planning a day trip. And she said, "You may go with your good mother." And she said, "You do not have to come back the same day." Sr. Anita: That was extraordinary in those days. Sr. Eleanor Maria: There's a Sisters’ ... The Sisters of Mercy have a con- Imagine how she investigated. The Sisters of Mercy have a convent in Torrington, Connecticut, which is right near there. And she said, "You may stay there overnight and come back the next day." My mother almost died. And my mother was the most beautiful letter writer. She wrote all her life, she never stopped writing. And she wrote to mother in gratitude. She was so ... That was unusual. Sr. Anita: And this was to visit your father's ... Sr. Eleanor Maria: Papa's grave. My whole family's buried up there. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Pettit, Sister Eleanor Maria, S.C. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Constance, Sister Anita, S.C. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:08:15 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Eleanor Maria Pettit, S.C. Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Pettit, Sister Eleanor Maria, S.C.; Corpus Christi School Hasbrouck Heights, NJ; Mother M. Grata Mullaney Description An account of the resource Description of the opening of a new school in 1928 and the kindness of Mother Mary Grata Mullaney Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pettit, Sister Eleanor Maria, S.C.; Constance, Sister Anita, S.C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1993 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Eleanor Maria Pettit, S.C. describes the opening of a new school in 1928 and the kindness of Mother Mary Grata Mullaney Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant circa 1993 Education Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/21d8b39e3f641ac04e2d5068965d47f0.jpg e74a5b3b99e9e265169472d395088696 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/4fffeecf907ebcd95cc4ddff7f17cd86.pdf b8fb22da842049380c4ceefac844937f PDF Text Text INTERVIEW WITH SISTER CHARLES MIRIAM STRASSEL DATED 3/16/93 INTERVIEWER: SISTER JUDITH METZ My mother was Mary Bump, I think her father was an Englishman. She was 32 years old when she married Clarence Strassel. Her first child was born on the 30th of October probably 1907. She lost him with diarrhea which we called Summer Complaint in those days. He was only 9 months old and my mother never got over that death. She used to have his little clothes and she always cried whenever she saw them. Then three years later she had my brother Charles. She always had wanted a little girl. She was 39 when I was born, and she thought that God was very good to her. She told me that she took me and offered me to the Blessed Mother when I was baptized. I was born on June 10, 1912 at 11 o’clock in the morning and it was a Monday morning. She had her tubs out to do her wash and she said: “Clarence, put the tubs away, the baby is coming. Of course all these births were at home, so my aunt, her sister, Aunt Katie came over and helped with birth along with the country doctor who was down in Delhi. This was lower Delhi, it is now called Saylor Park and I was born in a little house 114 Meridian St. down in lower Delhi. I was named after my two grandmothers. I wish Mom would have let me have Johanna because her mother’s name was Johanna, but she called me Josephine, Catherine Josephine. She said I was always to carry that “J”, now, but I dropped the “J”, I never wrote my name that way but if you punched me out in the computer, the “J” would come up. She thought after my birth that she would lose me because they couldn’t find a formula that was agreeing with me, but finally they found a formula that agreed with me because I was very thin. She was praying very hard that she wouldn’t lose me.... anyhow, I survived. I went to St. Aloysius on the Ohio to grade school. In 1918, the time of the flu that took so many lives, it was such a terrible winter, the Ohio River froze over. The Oldenburg Sisters taught us. They took the whole school across the river, we walked across the river. Mom said: “You can’t go unless your father goes with you.” So, Dad came along and we walked across the Ohio River. She used to put pants on me that were Charlie’s so that I would keep warm. We always had a nice warm home, it was four rooms. We had no running water. It was 1939, I guess, before Mom ever got running water in the house. We had a wonderful cistern outside, the water was wonderful, very good tasting water. �2 I can remember when we were growing up that we had lamps, because there was no electricity. We had no medicines at all, so when we had a bad cold, Mom always had three barrels of wine in the cellar that she made herself. We had elderberry wine, we had grape wine, and there was another kind that we had. And if we had a bad cold, Mom would heat some wine and give it to Charlie and myself. The only medicines we had was what was thrown on the porch. But, we all survived. Dad only went to the fourth grade in school, and Mom went to the sixth grade. Mom was born in a log cabin close to the Ohio River in Northbend. Dad was born in upper Delhi. Grandpa Strassel had a big farm. The farm is where St. Atoninus is at present. I used to love to go up there and stay all night with grandma because we had to go upstairs to bed with a lamp. What impressed me was going upstairs, because we just had a four room house. Her little kitchen tablecloths were blue and white and the red and white I always liked them. They were red and white check and blue and white check. I used to love that because we didn’t have those table cloths. Grandpa would let me ride the horses bareback when he brought them to drink. Then we used to go into the barn and slide down the hay. He also had a smokehouse where they smoked their own sausage. It was a large place. Before Grandpa’s first wife died , three children were born: William Strassel, Louella Strassel and Clarence Strassel, my Dad. And then, Grandpa remarried and he had about six boys, no girls. Aunt Louella married and she had three daughters, Lillian, who became Sister Mary Donald in the Oldenburg community, and two others. Lillian entered 7 years before I did. I had been wishing that I could go with her, but I was just in grade school and I knew that I had to wait. But I really knew that I wanted to be a Sister when I was in 3rd or 4th grade. I graduated from the 8th grade at St. Aloysius in 1926. As time when on, I knew that I wanted to enter a Community, so I asked Mom if I could come to the Mount to school, because my cousin had graduated from the Academy in 1924 and I used to come up when she was here. Mom and I took a traction car to St. Joseph’s stop down here below the Mount and we walked up the steps which came out just beyond the cemetery. And so, we came up to register. For a boarder, it was $300 a year. There were also day-students. Another girl from my class came up as a day-student. She came up here by bus. There were four of us that roomed in a dormitory all four years that I was here at the Academy: Helen Kiley, Mary Sulfsted, and Mary Hesselbrock. We still are very good friends. We get together every so often. �3 WHAT DID YOUR DAD DO? My poor Dad worked on the railroad most of the time, doing the hard work. Sometimes jobs were so hard to find, he did anything he could, but he mostly worked on the railroad. During World War I, they would open the railroad cars, and people would go down there and take what they wanted out of the cars because coffee was rationed and sugar was rationed. Even though this was prohibition time, Mom used to sell her wine, and Charlie and I would deliver it. We were never caught. She was also a wonderful pie baker and she used to sell her pies also, and Charlie and I would deliver them. WHO WERE SOME OF THE SISTERS THAT YOU KNEW WHEN YOU WERE UP HERE IN THE ACADEMY? When I first came, Sister Elizabeth Seton was Directress, Sister Thomas Aquinas taught Science, and also they sent Sister Mary Leo over as a Postulant and she taught over in the Academy. Sister Mary Bernice also taught over there as a Postulant. Her sister was in the Academy, too. The second year, Sister Deodata was the “angel” that meant that she was with the girls whenever they were not in class... {here she struggled with a name... saying that this was a person with whom she had lots of fun... they were always getting into things that they weren’t supposed to}... then she remembered.... Margo (Margaret) Schmidter and I were trouble makers, I guess. At least the first year at the Academy. In the dining room we always rotated every week from one table to another. We changed our table cloths, so we could learn how to pass the dishes, we were also trained to be “ladies”. Margo Schmidter, this particular time, was sitting at the head of the table, and I was to her right. She knew I loved chocolate pudding, so instead of giving me a dish, she took the dish she had the bowl of chocolate pudding and she was filling it for me. It was getting up there to the rim of the dish, and I said:”Margo, stop now because it is going to run over.” But she kept filling it, and so I put my hand over the bowl so that she would stop, and she put it all over my hand. We had linen napkins (we always had a Sister walking up and down the dining room) so, I took the linen napkin and put it on my hand. Sister Marie Corona was the one walking up and down, and she saw this. She came over and she said: “Don’t eat it, don’t eat a bite out of that dish until I get Sister Marie Damien.” So, Margo began to cry... she could cry at the drop of a hat...So Sister Marie Damien came and gave us a talk. She said to me that I would get 50 in deportment, and I did that month. My mother wanted to know what that meant, so I told her the story. Margo Schmidter was a dear person. �4 Mom and Dad had it hard, but the first year, Mom paid for me. But, I thought if I asked the Sisters if I couldn’t work my way through so she wouldn’t have to do it. The Sisters let me. I used to come down before meals and help put the food on the table, and bring the pans in, because we washed dishes, just like the Sisters did at the table and then we would take the pans out and empty them. And then, on Saturdays I’d come down and we would take all the sugar out of the sugar bowls and wash them, also the salt and peppers, then we would refill them. We would crumb the tables after all the meals. So it wasn’t hard work at all. But anyhow I wanted to do that because it was too hard on Mom and Dad. We had a marvelous time and it was very good. One day, eight bells rang in the Academy and that meant that everybody had to go to the study hall. Sister Elizabeth Seton came in, and the desk was on a platform...the study hall was where the Rose Room is. She said, “close every door... close every window..(I was about two desks from her) and she said that Sister Deodata (who at this particular time was “angel”) had said : “I just heard a girl calling up from the first floor to the fourth floor, ‘Is Deo up there?’ She said, “ Do you know what that means? That means God. “ And she said: “That Sister, that’s all she has is her name”... and she went on and went on... And so, when I got the habit ... we did it different that year... we went in dressed as Postulants and then we got the bundle of the habit and we went out to the Novitiate and dressed and came back in. And then, they called out the names, and then on our way out we got the Constitutions. Well, I got out there and I took the bundle of the habit. The next morning, which was Easter Sunday, 1931 when I was dressing, I looked at the habit before I put it on and I thought this is all I have, no more, just this. And so, I recalled what Sister Elizabeth Seton had said that day. We had a girl in our class, her name was Hildegard Durr... once we got called in study hall for this too...she was steaming her hair and that was out of order too. But with it all, we had lots and lots of fun. In 1929 we had the hundredth anniversary of the Community. And all the girls had to go to one end of the hall on the fourth floor to give up our rooms to the Sisters who would come in for the 3-day celebration: one day was for the religious, and then one was for the public, and the other for the priests, I guess. �5 Mom always liked the Sisters of Charity because they were always out-going, and I liked that too. The Oldenburg Sisters were more reserved. I thought that if I went to Oldenburg, I would miss the Mount. Now I didn’t know Oldenburg itself, so I thought, I am going to the Mount, because I couldn’t miss Oldenburg because I didn’t know it. I graduated June 5, 1930. We always gave a class play. We had a Miss Cook who was the dramatic teacher, and the name of the play was Pharaoh’s Daughter. She picked me to play the part of Pharaoh’s daughter. I had 10 pages (I could memorize like anything in those days). She gave me 10 legal size sheets that I had to memorize. So, we practiced, and practiced and practiced. The play went OK, I found Moses in the basket. My dear little mother was there for it. After it was over, we went out to bow and all, and Mom came up and gave me a bouquet of flowers...that cost her money, and I said “Mom, you didn’t have to do that” and I kissed her. But she was always so proud of me. I was raised on much love, and I think that means so much to a person later in life. I went to S. Thomas Aquinas before I left school and I told her that I would like to enter and so she arranged for Mother Irenea to meet me in the parlor. So, I saw Mother Irenea and I told that I wanted to come in September. I knew that if I stayed home longer than September, I wouldn’t have been able to come I don’t think. Then she gave me the papers and I filled them out and I sent them back. It was only about a week later when I got papers that I was accepted. So, we did a lot of things together (Mom and I) and she got somebody to make my clothes... a dear friend down there so that I didn’t have to bring all these bolts of things because we were poor and I didn’t have to bring $100 either. Sister Thomas Aquinas had in her mind that I should take all this Science things, and I hated Chemistry and Biology I could have done without that too. But, she felt that I was fit for this and so she insisted that I take it in the Academy. And she insisted that if I wanted to be a Sister of Charity I had to take Chemistry. So I took it. And when I entered, I had to take it too. She had in mind, I guess, medical technology or something like that. I was told to be here at 3:00 o’clock in the afternoon on September 6. Now, September 6 was a Saturday, she had to teach school. So I guess that was the reason for it. So I told my Mom that I would have to be up there at 3 o’clock. I don’t even remember who brought me. I know that Mom came with me. Dad didn’t want me to come although he loved me very much. �6 So, September 6th I came in and I asked to see Sister Thomas Aquinas. They put us in the parlor and she told me that she would take me over to get dressed. There was green carpet out there in front of the chapel and no one could ever go over that green carpet so that was quite a thing for me. She took me in the back of the chapel and told me to make my offering now. So, I made my offering of my life. Then she took me upstairs to get dressed and then I went back down ( I have all these pictures of that) and I was very happy. So then we sat there for a little while and then Mom left. SO YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE THAT ENTERED THAT DAY? Yes. Somebody came in on the 7th . Julienne came before me, because I am between them in priority. Mom never missed visiting Sunday. She asked me what she should call me now. I said, “Mom, call me what you have always called me, you don’t have to say Sister.” (of course, I had had my pre-novitiate in the Academy, because we couldn’t talk after the De Profundis at twenty minutes to nine, and if you talked you had to sit out in the hall. It was almost like a novitiate in those days But, I was happy. I’ve been happy all my life because I received so much love.) WHAT WAS THAT STORY YOU TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY ABOUT THE SISTER FROM THE ACADEMY WHEN SHE FOUND OUT YOU WERE ENTERING? I came up the summer before I entered. I came up to see Sister Thomas Aquinas about my clothes and about all this other stuff. Sister Elizabeth Seton was Directress, and she was down in her office when I passed, I could see her there, because the door was kind of ajar. During our conversation upstairs, Sister Thomas Aquinas asked me if I had told Sister Elizabeth Seton. I said that I had not. We were always scared of S. Elizabeth Seton... we had to get all these permissions and we were wondering what she was going to say whenever we went into her office... so I told T.A. that I would see her when I went back down because I knew that she was in the office. She told me that that was a courtesy and that I should do so. �7 So, she was still in there, so I rapped on the door and she opened the door and said: “Oh, Catherine, how are you?” I told her that I was fine and she invited me to sit down and we talked a little bit, then I said that I had come to tell her something. I told her that I was going to enter in September and she said: “Enter where?” and I told her that I was going to enter her Community. She said: “Catherine, you’re too young, you’re too immature, you’ll never stay. You won’t stay three months” I said, “Well, Sister, I don’t know the future, but I have given this lots of thought and I’m coming to stay. I realize that I don’t know what is in store for me, but I want to come and I have thought a lot about this.” So we left it at that. I GUESS YOU PROVED HER WRONG ! Yes, I’ll be in 63 years soon. I did respect her and she was quite a lady. She’s not a person that I would “fall in love” with. I admired Thomas Aquinas very much, she was a good teacher. I, myself, was drawn to T.A. One time, before I entered, we had a riding academy down here below the Mount. I kinda wanted to ride a horse. If we weren’t dressed properly, this lady, (T.A.) had us use the back stairs. And, so, I had knickers on to go riding, and when I came back from riding, who did I meet on the stairs but T.A. And, she said : “look at you”. And I said, “I’ve always wanted to ride a horse before I entered”, and so I passed it off like that.. and that’s all she said to me. I was using the right stairs anyway. (I’m going back and forth as things come to me) And then during my novitiate they sent me over to the College and I had to take all that science stuff after the canonical year. I got the habit on April 4, 1931 and by October I had lost 50 lbs. Now I didn’t know that I had lost 50 lbs, I was too busy working and I wasn’t sick. So, one night, on my stand in the novitiate, I found a glass of milk and I thought that this must have gotten in the wrong place. It was sacred silence so I couldn’t do anything about that, so I drank it. A few days after that, Sister Mary Emma called me and told me that I was to go over to Sister Mary Carlos’ office...Mary Carlos was not a nurse, she was treasurer of the Community. I had to go up to her office, up there on the second floor. The parlor to the left as you go in the front door was the Treasurer’s Office. She told me to sit down and open my mouth, and she had a spoon that she put on the top of my tongue and told me to say ahhh, and so I did. Nobody had said anything to me, I didn’t know that I had lost weight. Then she said for me to tell Sister Mary Emma to send me to (not sure about these next few words) Giles DeCourcy?? and so I went to Giles De Courcy. �8 Little Sister Mildred, God love her, she was hardly able to walk, but she was to be my companion. I told Giles DeCourcy that I was not sick, but he examined me and told me that I had an exothalmic {spelling?} thyroid and it has to come out. I asked him to write this on a piece of paper, I have to give this to the Superior. When I came back...Mother Mary Florence was Assistant Mother, so I told her and I told Sister Mary Emma. He had also told me to see Joe De Courcy, his brother. I went to Joe and he said the same thing, an exsothalmic thyroid and it had to come out. There was no room at the Good Samaritan Hospital, so I had to wait. I was given Sister Mary Agnes McCann’s room. They called my mother and she came up, she was worried sick. I was operated on, October 6, 1931 and I’ll never be colder even when I’m put in the grave than I was on that cart going up there. I had never had anything wrong with me. My mother kept saying to my father to go faster because she was afraid I would be in the Operating Room and they wouldn’t be there. I told my Mom not to come to see me the first day, but she could come after that. I was told that the operation was done fifteen minutes. She came the next day and wanted me to go home with her to get built up again. I told her that I couldn’t do that, if I leave the Community, I could not come back. I told her that I was very happy here and that the Sisters are very good to me. I asked her to let me recuperate with them. She understood, but she came every day to see me. I was only in there about 8 days, I didn’t break my Canonical Year At the end of my Canonical Year, Mother Mary Regina, elected in 1931, came into the Novitiate to tell us what we were going to be doing the second year of Novitiate ... I think that was the first time we had a second year Novitiate...this was preparing us for what we would be doing. So, Mother Regina called everybody’s name. When she called my name she told me that I would be going to the Good Samaritan, and go into training to be a nurse. I was delighted. I had been doing a lot of fasting so that I could be a nurse, because I didn’t think I was material to be a teacher. Sister Mary Emma was giving out black veils so we could go out, but she didn’t give me a black veil, so I went up to her and said that I thought Mother had said that I supposed to go in training. Then she told me that it had been changed. Then, I asked what it had been changed to. �9 And she told me that I had to ask Sister Mary Corona. So, I went over to her office and she wasn’t there, so I went over to her bedroom. When she opened the door she said: “Catherine, how are you?” So, I told her that I was fine, and I went through all this again. Then she told me that I was going to the hospital to relieve a laboratory technologist. At that time I didn’t even know that a hospital had a laboratory technologist. So I went to college and got another semester. Then, I was a Junior in good standing when I went to the hospital. Sister Ellen, God love her, she had charge of the laboratory, and she told me to just stand there and observe. Well, it took me 10 minutes to observe and to say that I didn’t want to do this. There were 100 urines there to be examined. There was the smell of paracytology {spelling??} There were cultures, Lord, it smelled terrible. I thought to myself, I can’t do this. So, standing there, I thought that if I said anything I’d probably be sent home, I guess I could try it. I tell people now that I tried it 45 years. That was a blow that almost killed me. So, I worked with Sister Ellen. She loved me to death, I didn’t know this, but she was always so very kind to me that I didn’t know she thought that much of me until Jean Clare went in after me. As soon as Ellen saw Jean Clare, she said that she would never be a Charles Miriam. Jean Clare told me this later. Now Ignatius loved Jean Clare and I don’t think she could stand me. I thought I’d be there a year, and I got into the work even though I didn’t like it, but I thought that I could try it. That following August, I didn’t come out to hear the mission list read. I went downstairs and S. Dorothy Ann was there outside of the chapel reading this list and I said, just for fun, “is my name on that list?”and I looked over her shoulder and my Lord and my God I saw my name there. No less, to go to Colorado Springs to the Glockner That was after 6 months at Good Sam, from January to August. I then thought of my mother. It was customary to go home for a day if you were from the East and you were missioned West. So, I called my mother to tell her that I had been missioned West to Colorado Springs. That poor soul didn’t know where Colorado Springs was. I told her that it was customary that I could go home for a day before I go. I asked her which day would be good for her. She said I could go home any time. I suggested the 16th of August, the day after I came out of retreat. She said, that was fine. So, the 16th of August came and my brother came up for me. At that time we weren’t even supposed to get in a car with our brothers or fathers. It was alright to go in a taxicab not knowing the man at all, alone, that was OK. So I asked Charlie where Mom was. He said that ever since I had called Mom’s had been cleaning and cooking. He said that I was going to have to eat everything I ever liked. That was another problem. So I said,”Jesus, Mary and Joseph, don’t let anybody see me get into this car alone with my brother.” �10 I had made vows by then. I made vows in 1933 and we made them for 3 years. (back to the story of her brother and the car) I sat in front with him because I thought it was crazy to sit in the back. But, see, your family were good enough for you when you were home, but it didn’t make sense. But, anyhow, I got in with Charlie and we went home. And now, before I knew about Mom cooking all that stuff, I had asked if it was alright to eat. I was told that if they had a cold drink or some cookies I was to take it. She didn’t say a thing about a meal. When I got home, Mom had been slaving . We had always eaten at the kitchen table, the four of us, but she had the dining room all set up. She had linen napkins and the four of us were there for dinner. She had everything I ever liked. And I thought to myself, Jesus is the only one that’s here, and I’m not going to hurt my mother, I’m going to eat anything and everything. And I did. So we had this beautiful meal and then they took me back at the end of the day. We left for Colorado Springs toward the last part of August, because we got there on Retreat Sunday, the first Sunday of September. We went to Cincinnati to board the train. Earlier, I had been told that I was going alone and another Sister was going to get on in Indianapolis. She had been to visit her family. She was going to Albuquerque. Well, my mother was at the depot with this care package, all kinds of food, jellies, etc. And she asked my why I had not told her that I was going {at this point Sister’s voice got very soft, almost a whisper and could not be heard clearly}. Sister Margaret Jane had given me some tips about travelling. Margaret Jane came into my life when I went to the Good Samaritan. There were 72 nuns there at that time. After night prayers she used to wait at the door of chapel and she would invite me to go take a walk on the roof. Coming from the Novitiate, here I was with all these people around me, and there was nobody there. She was very kind to me. �11 When I got on the train, I remembered that Margaret Jane told me that the busman would come to the car and take me over to the other station because we were to transfer to the Santa Fe station. So, Sister got on at Indianapolis. She told me that she was glad she was coming with me, because she knew we would have a good time. Her name was Helen Miriam, she was a cousin of one of our Sister. But, Helen Miriam didn’t stay in the Community. Margaret Jane had told me that they give plenty of food on the train, and that if I asked for only one helping there should be enough for both of us. Well, I thought I could not do that...asking for a plate for her and then ask for only one helping?... I can’t do that... We just let things go on as usual, but when the size of the helpings came Helen Miriam said that she could not eat all of that. I told her that if she couldn’t eat it, I would eat it. Mary Carlos had only given us one berth. We had one berth for both of us to get into and we had all these clothes. She had just made her first vows and she had her good habit with her. So, I said for her to get in first, then I got in. We had to drape all these things around us, veils and all these things, in one berth. Well, some time during the night, I felt something itching me in my back. Finally, she woke up. So, I got out of the berth, covered with the curtain, and realized that it was her cap and veil, the starchy thing was scratching me. She was so upset. I asked her if she had another cap and we would go into one of these vacant rooms and I would drape your veil. So, we got up early and we went into one of those rooms and I fixed her veil. Well, there was no air conditioning in those days if you opened one of the windows on the train, you got all this soot coming in on you. I had three guimps and one was not usable because we had been in the diner one night and I spilled a cup of coffee all over myself. So, that one was gone. We were a sight to be seen when we reached Colorado Springs. We were two nights and a day on this train. I didn’t know where I was going, so if it wasn’t for signs all around in the station we would never have gotten here. DID ANYBODY MEET YOU ? Oh, yes. �12 So when we were pulling in to Colorado Springs, S. Mary Harrison who was the Superior/Administrator was there. And, if there was any woman that I dearly it was her, she was a real mother. She was a lovely lady. CAN YOU SAY SOME MORE ABOUT SISTER MARY HARRISON? She was such a sweet person, she was so dear. I was there two years, and at the end of the two years I was supposed to make my perpetual vows... in 1936... Two days before I was supposed to go to Pueblo to make my retreat and perpetual vows,I had not yet gotten the letter of permission. When Mother Regina had come before, I had knelt down and asked her to make perpetual vows. I went to Sister Mary Harrison and I told her that I had not received the letter. She asked me if had mailed it, and I said I had. Then she said that I would not have to worry. Mary was always so dear, she’d take us up in the mountains to get trees for Christmas. She was always taking us out to the mountains for picnics etc. She was very kind to all the Sisters. She was very compassionate, everybody loved her. So any how I got permission so I went to Pueblo. My mother and my brother came out for the ceremony. My father did not come, he really didn’t want me to enter. He had said that he would never come to see me, but he did. The ceremony was held at the old St. Mary’s hospital in August of 1936. Sister Jane Theresa was Superior/Administrator there. There were five us that were all from the East, but they did not bring us home that year. There was Martina, Mary Canice, Mary Jude who was on mission in Santa Fe, and it was known that she was a tubercular so she had been held back. Sister Marie Genevieve was her Superior and told her that she had to go rest every afternoon. And, because she rested, she was held back. And then there was Sister Adeline who came from St. Rita’s. Each one of us said our vows as we knelt at the Communion Rail. Sister Mary Angus Barry also made that retreat. At the end of the retreat I was missioned to Trinidad. The day I got there, we had some reading and then she (Sister Mary) rang the bell and announced that the new Sisters had arrived and she proceeded to introduce us. So, she introduced Sister Helen Miriam first and said that Sister was going on to Albuquerque, and Sister Charles Miriam is staying here to help Sister Thomas and she is also going to learn X-ray. �13 I thought to myself, I haven’t taken physics, I’ll be electrocuted, I’m sure. I was helping Sister Thomas and there was also a lay person there who was excellent at her work and she taught me everything I know about X-ray. So I was both lab tech and x-ray and I took night call when needed. To me, to be holy, was not to say anything unless somebody asked me a question. Well, that didn’t last long. I had a couple of people working for me. I had to go into the x-ray room and practice what I was going to say because I was not sure just what I was doing. The x-ray unit there at that time must have been on Noah’s ark, it was horrible. Whenever I put my foot to take a picture, it would spark over. It was a real old one. In those days, we had to take the wires down and attach them to the tube, and we had three different tubes, a 100, a 30 and a 10, according to whatever you were taking, you had to change the tube and that was different for me had never had to do that at Glockner. At times, I didn’t know whether I’d be killed or the patient on the table would be killed. So, I went to Sister Alexander who was the Superior. She was a lovely lady, she was wonderful, she loved the poor. Any how I went to her and told her that we just had to get another x-ray unit. She told me that we didn’t have any money. I asked her if I could get the money, would it be OK. And she said yes. So, I went in and out of every store in Trinidad. I don’t remember this, but Sister Agnes Patricia said that I had gone to the mines and when the men came out of the mines on pay day I would get some money. Just like our earlier Sisters did to build that hospital. Well, it was about $19,000 to get a unit I collected that amount. Everybody was so good to the Nuns, they just loved the Nuns. I went in and out of every business in town, of course, every other door was a bar but that didn’t make any difference to me. I was bold in those days, I was bold enough because we needed that unit. Well, we got the unit, it was a General Electric unit and they put it in for me, and that following August, I was missioned. I had been there from 1936 to 1940 then I was missioned to Albuquerque. There are a lot of stories about Trinidad. There a number of young Jesuit priests down there and they were so good. They needed an outlet too, so they used to come up and visit and we used to have a good time. They were wonderful guys. �14 On Sundays we would go up and teach Catechism. Mary Jude went with me and Father {name not clear} would come up and pick us up, take us to Ludlow, and Mr Brunelli would then take us (this is the twin Brunelli’s father) and he used to take us up into the mountains to this little town. When we arrived we would ring the bell and have catechism lessons right in the little church there every Sunday. Then Mr.Brunelli would bring us back down and Father would collect us from there. He took some of the other Sisters to some other little town. ABOUT HOW MANY SISTERS WERE ON MISSION AT THE HOSPITAL WHEN YOU WERE THERE? About 16 or 17. We had a cook, Sister Marie Carmel was in charge of the buying, we had a Sister in the operating room, Sister Agnes Patricia, and she would take care of the maternity also. We had a Sister on the first floor and one on the second floor and one in the pharmacy, I was in the lab and x-ray. There were so many accidents, particularly from the mines. When they would come in most of them were paralyzed. We prayed and prayed, we made novena after novena for this one man, and every day we would go in and move his toes because from his waist down, he was paralyzed. That man walked out on crutches. We always felt that it was a miracle. What would happen is that they would be bent over and the coal would hit them on their backs and necks. Most of them were paralyzed and most of them died. We had good doctors, maybe 8 or 10 on the staff. One night, it wasn’t late, Sister Agnes Patricia and I were over by the main stairs and this man opened the door. He was drunk as a lord and he had this dagger of a knife in his hand and he came toward us. Agnes was a big woman and she was strong. She took her fist and got him up underneath the chin and he fell to the floor. I thought he was dead. We had a Jesuit priest who had been Master of Novices in St.Louis and was retired. He wasn’t too well. So, I went down to get him. I asked him to come quick, that I thought this man was dead. He came down and we found that the man wasn’t dead at all, he was just relaxed. �15 One evening I was going over to supper and I heard all this commotion outside. We didn’t have a paved street in front of the hospital, we just had gravel. This car passed and they threw out this person out into the gravel and went on. I called down the hall to bring a cart and I asked for some help. We went down with the cart and we carried that guy, he was only a young fellow about 19 years old. He had been in this bar and a bullet that was not meant for him had hit him. We took him back to the operating room. His mother came and he died within an hour. That was in the 30’s but it was still like Billy the Kid days. These were such good, simple people. They were good because they were in this little town and they had just coal mining. There was an international community there. They were some from the Far East there, we had all kinds of people. HOW COME THERE WAS SUCH A DIVERSITY THERE? I don’t know. Then we had little Saint Mary’s chapel where they practiced the Eastern Rite. The priest there was so good. He just walked the streets all the time and was so good to people and helped people on the way. Whenever the Bishop would come down, we always invited this priest up to the hospital to share with the other priests. He was such a good man. When I think about all this diversion stuff, that if you don’t do this you don’t belong to Rome, I can’t figure out all that stuff. The people were simple and good and they showered us with good home-made wine, with all kinds of food that they would bring in. It was just like a big family. There was Frankie Mayo {[not sure of this name} who was going with this girl. While they were courting each other, Frank would drive the truck up into the mountains to get trees about the 1st of December and “kinnikenic??” that would grow on the ground. It had red berries on it. We went up in a car while Frank took the truck. We had these great big thermoses of chili so we could have something to eat on the way. We would put the trees in the truck. We often had about 100 trees. We would chop down our own trees and yelled “lumber” when they were falling and then slide on down. Then we sat down and ate this chili and rolls. We also took thermoses of water to drink. We would get 10 or 12 bags of this “Kinnikenic” and we would start making wreathes down in the basement of the hospital. All the Sisters would come and Frankie Mayo and Kathy would come. They weren’t married yet. Every door in that hospital had a wreathe on it. �16 Sister Corolla, she came from {Kings???} I don’t know what nationality she was. She had charge of the chapel. She would simply bank the trees behind the altar and all around. Our chapel always looked beautiful Father Bob Derouen, a Jesuit, was born and raised in Trinidad. As a young kid, heused to come up and serve Father Garcia’s Mass. When we get together with Father Derouen we always had a lot of fun because we knew him as a kid. One time I wanted to get some red peonies for the feast of the Sacred Heart. And so, a couple of ladies who were good friends of ours suggested that we go to the cemetery. So we went down to the cemetery and we took one or two off of each grave and we had lovely peonies for the altar for the Lord. END OF TAPE #1 TAPE #2 When I was in Albuquerque, I always thought that it was nice to do things together, so we would put on a Christmas Play. All the nuns would come and they would just love this. It was good for the kids and they still talk about this when I go down there to Albuquerque. I think if I hadn’t entered I would probably go into dramatics because when I was in the Academy we had a lady who taught dramatics, Miss Cook, I often wonder what happened to her. Once, for our class play, she selected Pharaoh’s Daughter {see reference on page 5} While in Albuquerque, I had a bad asthmatic girl who came from Peoria, Illinois who came to work with me in this school and become a medical technologist. She finished and then married a pathologist from Lovelace Clinic. { here there is an aside about the Doctors who formed Lovelace Clinic especially a Doctor McKinnon.} Together, we had a nice relationship and we had a lot of fun together. But, they were real gentlemen. �17 Even today there were a number of people (maybe about 10) who worked with me in the schools and some of the regular students are still in Albuquerque. Some of them are just now retiring. There was one student in particular, Frances Harlan who came there. When she came to register, she was so much older than I was, I thought she was old enough to be my mother. She had been in the service and all and so I thought about taking her or not. So I did, and Frances Harlan always kept up with me. She would send me a little bit of money now and then. And then, the last five or six years she used to send me a check. She would want to know how much the plane fare would be so she would send me a check and I would go down there and stay a couple of weeks. She would get the others all together and we would go out to lunch together. This went on for the last five or six years, I guess. She passed away August of last year, but I got to see her last year. I went down and I went out twice to see her. She was 90 years old last July. One day I did ask her why she had always kept up with me. And she said that I had changed her life. She had never married. After she died she was cremated and her ashes were sent to Flint, Michigan where she was from. She had become a very dear friend. Once I noticed that she never went to receive Holy Communion and I asked her about, and she said: “Well, Sister, I don’t want to be a hypocrite, I just can’t go along with all the Holy Father does” I told her that I thought that all of us have something that we don’t agree with. But Jesus wants us to come to him. HOW MANY STUDENTS DID YOU HAVE FOR EACH SCHOOL? I would only accept 2 or 3 students in X-ray school each year and the same with the lab because in the lab we had pretty close quarters there so I only took about 3 or 4. There were a number of them from the University of Kansas. One of the students was Marguerite Block. I haven’t been able to find her again. Some of these people that I thought a lot of, I would always try to trace them down. In 1954 I was missioned to Kenton of all places. I went there on a train and I told the Conductor that he would have to call that place out when we get there because I have no idea where I am going. Sister Theodore was Superior/Administrator there and she met me at the train. It was a 75 bed hospital, and we had mostly injuries from the road and also from agricultural accidents. I had the lab, x-ray and blood bank there. I found it hard to get acclimated to that little place, because I was used to everything going so fast. �18 Sister Agnes Patricia had the Operating Room, Sister Gertrudis was there at the time. There was a nice little chapel. The people were just lovely, just humble people and good people. It was not a Catholic place. However, we did have across the street the Immaculate Conception parish, and our Sisters were there. Formerly, they had their own convent, but now they lived with us at the hospital. Sister Francis Solano was the Principal of the school; Ruth Beris (John Claire) came there out of the Novitiate; Patrice Vales came. I always said that I helped raise John and Patrice. HOW MANY SISTERS WORKED IN THE HOSPITAL? About 6, I guess, we had two floors and we had a pharmacy, the operating room, and the lab and x-ray. It couldn’t have been more than 6 Sisters. Sister Mary Lambert had the kitchen. Every year they had this big fiesta thing in August. After each one of them, Mary Lambert would start to prepare her noodles and freeze them. The big dish there was chicken and noodles. And we had this “fiesta”, you wouldn’t believe... the line to get this food was four blocks long. When I first got there I asked what Sister Theodore wanted me to do... and she said to just keep the line moving. There were tables out there where they ate. You wouldn’t believe the number of people that came to this big fundraiser for the hospital. Sister Mary Stephanie made so many things for that and she always came there to work in the summer-time preparing for this. She was the light of life there. Every other word you had to laugh at her. She was a wonderful person she certainly knew how to live life. I was there only one year. One day we all went to the Community Room for the opening of the mission letter. Agnes Patricia’s name was called out first, and then she called mine. I was dumbstruck, I had only been there for one year. Agnes was going to Albuquerque, and I was going to Corwin where we had just gotten there. Celestia went there the same year that I did, in 1955, and we had 12 Sisters there. Sister Helen Eugene was the Superior, Mary Joachim was there. You never saw such a lab (this was at the old Corwin). That was an experience that can never be taken away, it was a hard experience. Later, Sister Grace Marie was sent there. I was there 3 ½ years. At one time you had a 200 bed hospital, and then overnight (it seems) you had a 400 bed hospital. We didn’t know our way around the place. It was a very good learning experience this transition. It was for me and I know it was for the others. �19 I believe in life that each experience that you have today prepares you for tomorrow. We brought all these different groups of people to show them around. Grace Marie was just a devil, but I liked her, you couldn’t help but like Grace Marie. Nobody in the Community could have made that transition like she she did. The problem of making the two staffs of St. Mary and what was Corwin blend, they were at swords point all the time. I guess that part of it was competition. Grace Marie had a wonderful personality and one that drew people. In those days you still had to go down to her office to ask for some toothpaste. I thought that was the craziest thing. They hadn’t started putting stuff out in the cupboard yet. She was good to the nuns. Whenever she could she always had a big party for the Sisters. {an aside} every once in a while I would find a bottle of beer on my bed at night. Course, she knew we were both German. She was very personable. The convent was a residence facing Lake Avenue. We had a nice group of Sisters there. More came every year. We had the Community Room in the basement. There was a Sister named Sister Mary Lawrence , she later left the Community. She was from Nebraska. She had the x-ray department in St. Mary’s, then came over to Corwin and she had the x-ray department there. She was a very nice person. I really would like to get in touch with her. I had the lab, a very big lab, and also I had the morgue on my floor. There was one time, that I just couldn’t go in there, the person had been decapitated, and I felt that I didn’t need to see that. We had a pathologist there and I could get along with him pretty well. Later they brought another pathologist in. He was Jewish and he brought his own supervisor of the lab and so I thought I would not be there. After 3 ½ years I was missioned. But before that time, though, one Christmas, I was on this committee for fixing the Community Room. Sister Mary Lawrence was on the committee too, and she was very artistic. Sister Mary Joachim was on it, and myself. We thought we would use the theme “O Little Town of Bethlehem”. So, we got these past-board boxes and S. Mary Lawrence cut them out as houses and she made them so that the top could come off, we covered them with contact paper. We had all these houses different. So, we had at one end, the little town of Bethlehem. All our little presents, like towels and other things that we used to get went inside of the houses and we had each Sister’s name on the door of the house. �20 Sister Mary Joachim was very good at things like this, she covered the walls. We had a thousand stars hanging from the ceiling... we cut out a thousand stars.... Along the three walls we hung brown paper and Joachim painted palm trees on this paper. After we got all finished we had a three dimensional thing. Then we got little animals, we had a light behind red paper so it would look like a fire, then we had a little water for the animals. Before the Sisters came in, we dropped some dry ice in there so that the thing would bubble up. In those days, you first went to get the Superior when it was all ready. She just couldn’t get over how this was. We used to take great pride in fixing our Community Room. So, I suggested that the Sisters sing “O Little Town of Bethlehem” as they came in.... there were about 20 Sisters there at that time... This whole thing is something that I will never forget. Then, I was sent back to Trinidad. Gertrude Ann took my place in Pueblo. I had lasted 3 ½ years, but she lasted on 6 months. She and I get together once in a while and talk about that. She said she didn’t know how I stood it for 3 ½ years. In Trinidad they were having difficulty, but I just went back to my old place, which I just loved. I was there from 1958 to 1964. That was the time that Margaret Lois had been with the Benedictine Sisters and her time was up with them. She was a person whom, I think, was very misunderstood. She was sent home at that time {at this point the chronology gets a little confusing} {she speaks of S. Margaret Lois...???Sister Carol Marie Boggs???} At that time, too, Sister Agnes Patricia was there, Sister Jeanne Roach, S. Lucia Mao, S. Bernard Marie was the Administrator. S. Cornelius had been Administrator for a little while, then Bernard Marie (she was wonderful). A few thoughts here about Sister Remy (not sure of this name) who was very sick there she would never let herself be at ease. All these changes in the habit bothered her because she had such a long neck. When we took away the guimpe and had just a little collar, she just had a fit because her long neck showed. I’m glad that she wasn’t around when we did the rest of it because the changes were just terrible for her. We never had any money, so what was in the pancakes on Shrove Tuesday we (Sister Jeanne Roach and I) would keep and we would save it till summer time when it would be so hot. There was a coke machine in the back by the emergency room and we would just love to go get a coke and sit there and just love it. �21 I remember that is where I was when President Kennedy was killed. I also remember that that was when I volunteered for Peru. But, I wasn’t chosen and I was so disappointed. I just couldn’t understand what criteria they used to choose people. When Sister Rose Adelaide’s name came out I was very surprised. She was a perfectionist and I didn’t think that we would send anybody to South America who is a perfectionist. Amadea was also in Trinidad at that time. She had the pharmacy. In 1963 I had a slipped disc in my back. I went to Albuquerque for that surgery and I was there about 3 months. I had somebody in the lab while I was away. Carmella Riggio, sister of our Sister Rosalie Riggio was there for a long time. When I came back from my surgery, S.Mary Clare was there as Superior. She told me that Mother Mary Omer was in Santa Fe and she wanted to talk to me. Mother Mary Omer told me that Sister Margaret Lois was now in charge of the lab in Trinidad and I was to do just what she wanted me to do. I never had any trouble with Margaret Lois, she and I got along. Then I knew that I would be missioned in August. I was missioned to Dayton. To send a person who just had a back operation to Dayton, to the x-ray department and then to tell you not to lift. Well, there was no one around to do the lifting. We had 150 people a day and we had 3 machines to do this in. I was sent there to upgrade the x-ray school. It was in very poor condition when I went there. Sister Regina Marie had been there and she still was there when I arrived. I’m telling you, to try to get the school together and the department was no fun. The radiologists didn’t appreciate me, because I had all this experience and they didn’t want anybody to interfere with them. What they wanted was to lease these departments (lab and x-ray). So anyhow, I was there 6 years and I got the school running . There was a girl there who helped me, Jeannie Littleton, she was a technologist there. I just contacted her in Dayton lately and she is coming down here to see me. I haven’t seen her for over 20 years. I was in Dayton from 1964 to 1970 and I felt that I had been sent to do the school. At that time, Amadea invited me to go to Trinidad to take a government job with senior citizens. I said that I had no idea what to do with senior citizens. At that time, I was 58 and growing closer to being a senior citizen myself �22 Mr. Ford was the Administrator in Dayton. S. Anna had been put out to get a man in there. And they got this man, Mr. Ford. Anna was sent to Mt.Clemens. After Anna left, Sister Marie Therese was there. She was coordinator of the Sisters. Romana called me one day because Regina Marie had been missioned back here to the Mount, she had been in x-ray when I went there. Mother Romana just raked me over the coals and told me that I was not to say anything about Sister Regina, never to do that to a Sister, and I hadn’t. One day, the phone rang, and it was for me. It was Mr. Ford who said that he would like to see me in his office. So I went down. He said that he had had a call from someone this morning, no less than the Mother General. She wanted to know if the school would be hurt if I were sent to Trinidad. He also told me that I was not to discuss this with anybody and he wanted me back at 8:30 in the morning to give my decision. So I thought about it and I felt that this Doctor wants to get me out... but this is my hospital, and I’m not going to go until I’m ready. So I went down at 8:30 and I told him that “yes” I thought the school would be hurt if I left right now, because there is no one to take my place. END OF SIDE 1 OF TAPE #2 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// SIDE 2 OF TAPE #2 Sister Agnes Patricia used to take care of the OB patients. One day I went up to get blood from somebody, a door opened as I was going down the hall, and this man walked out. He was stark naked except he had his hat on and a tie. He was suffering from the DT’s. I yelled for Leonella and she came and got him back in the room. .... all these funny things happened... One night I was up to do a blood count, x-ray or something and Agnes Patricia asked if I would mind helping her. She had a patient who was ready to deliver. So, I went up and I told her to tell me what to do. This woman kept saying “20...20...20” I asked what did she mean... I was told that this was her 20th child.... these stories always stuck in my mind. Sister Agnes Patricia was an excellent nurse and often had to deliver babies by herself, there were no doctors around. �23 Mother Regina made a visit one day and she was told by this Sister who was an anesthetist, that she had seen S. Agnes Patricia walking down the hall eating an apple. And, of course, she got crushed by Mother Regina... we weren’t allowed to let people know that ate. Some days we would go for 48 hours and not get any sleep. We were happy though, and everybody gelled into a real community. Those were happy days. I lived with S. Leonella while she was Superior there. She was an excellent nurse. One day, this accident was brought in, it was a whole wedding party. They were from Aguilar, a little town next to Trinidad, about 15 or 20 miles up the road, but they wanted to be married at Holy Trinity. Father Sebastiani was waiting for the wedding party down there and he called up to find out where they were. There were one or two killed in this accident. The bride just had a few scratches on her, I don’t remember about the groom, whether he lived or not. But that was a bad situation. One night three men were brought in, they were all Italian. They were shooting each other over a nickel. All three died that night. We called the priest. And while I had one on the operating table, I knew that there three bullets, but I could only find one hole. He had been shot right up the rectum. We had an awful lot of accidents. WERE YOU THERE WHEN THEY WERE HAVING SO MUCH TROUBLE WITH THAT ONE DOCTOR. I was there when he was in medical school... Dr. Donnelly, he worked with two other doctors, Doctor Newburn was one, he was a pathologist. Donnelly was a good guy. He was very good to people. I didn’t know him when all of that mess was going on. One day, after I had left Trinidad, I went back for a visit and I went to see him. You would have thought his mother had walked in. I had such a good relationship with him. I was there when he was married to a nurse who was from Denver. I liked her a lot. So, I knew him in a different light. Later we had two, father and son, Doctors Espys, who were both Doctors. They did not stay long, the father died and young Espy went up to Denver to work. �24 DID YOU HAVE A LOT OF NON-PAYING CASES THERE, THAT MADE IT HARD TO SUPPORT THE HOSPITAL? I didn’t know much about the financial affairs. When I was down in South Texas, a busload of us went up to Austin to the Capital and we asked for a package for the indigent people who were in health care. Four or five buses went up that time... and we got it. But, to know more about the business office in Trinidad, you would have to speak to Sister Mary Frances Dempsey who worked in that office at one time. In 1940, I was missioned to Albuquerque and I felt like I was going to the guillotine because I had heard so many things about these pathologists and radiologists and I had both lab and x-ray there. When I got there, there was a fracture room that I had to take care of. I was there from 1940 to 1954, so I was there through World War II. Talk about getting from the flame to the fire. We had the only emergency room open 24 hours a day. So many accidents happened on Highway 66 that goes east and west. I often asked why we had not built the hospital out there on this highway to save time. The pathologists and radiologists were Canadian and we always were short of help. It seemed that we always had money for something, but we never seemed to have money to get help. I took most of the night calls. My mother came out to see me in 1941. She hadn’t been feeling well. My cousins brought her out and they went on to California. I met her in Albuquerque and she was there about three weeks with me. One Saturday morning, she had a coronary and stroke at the same time, and she died a week after that. That was the way she wanted it, she wanted to be with me. The Sisters and everybody were wonderful to me. When your mother dies, it’s part of you that goes. I had been supposed to make the Albuquerque retreat and she died on the 25th of July and we came back on the train because we weren’t flying in those days. It took us two days and a night to bring the body home. Sister Margaret Jane was Superior and she came with me. The funeral was on the 30th. I had to get back down to Albuquerque, but I had a whole house to clear out. Dad was no help to me, Charlie was no help to me. Sister Helen Agnes went down with me. Mother Regina told me that I could go to my mother’s funeral...but I never thought that �25 I wasn’t going to my mother’s funeral. I had to be back down in Albuquerque for the 6th of August. I just didn’t know what to do with Mom’s stuff, she had so many wonderful things. I just didn’t have anybody to talk to. I had been in the Community 10 years, yet, I just didn’t feel that I could talk to anybody about it. But I did pack her dishes and I brought them up here. And, I was told to put them outside of that auditorium down there, and I’ve never seen them since. They were antiques and I wanted to go up to what used to be the library, where the stairs going up to the third floor, to see if they are there. But I never did. For the rest, I just called the St. Vincent de Paul and they took all into their store in Cincinnati. I felt that that was the only thing I could do. My mother is buried in the cemetery in Cleves where Dad is buried there, and grandma and grandpa are buried there. Mom’s two brothers were buried there. Sister Maria Fidelis took me there not too long ago. While I was at St. Joe’s in Albuquerque, a Father Fitzgerald, a Holy Ghost Father, got permission from Rome to establish this place for priests who drank and who had other problems... Villa Coeli. He also organized a Community while I was in New Mexico. He was a diabetic so he would come in to the hospital and he wouldn’t let anybody touch him except myself to draw blood. He had very small veins. He thought when he was establishing this, that he could do it all spiritually with not anything medical, but he found out that he couldn’t do this. A Doctor Roe went up there to help him. The idea was that they were going to have a clinic. They were going to take care of the medical part of the priests’ problems. But that didn’t work out. They really needed a doctor and sometimes a hospital. I just can’t imagine what is in the news today saying that this a place for bad priests. They are not bad priests, they are human priests. Many of them have been rehabilitated. The Community of Sisters who were there helping, didn’t have anything to eat. Some of them were nurses. So, to help out, we employed them so that they could have something to eat. They were considered part of St. Joe’s staff while they were waiting for the clinic to be finished. When these Sisters first started, they didn’t have a habit or anything, they would come in as nurses and work just like any other nurse would and be paid like anybody else would. They had to have some money coming in some place. One of the Sisters is named after me, Miriam Charles. She was in charge of the clinic in Santa Fe for a while. When they first came, only about three or four, they went to a Benedictine Convent to make their Novitiate. Now, they wear a wine colored habit and a white veil. Mother Bernadette, was made their Mother General, went through Seton School of Nursing in Colorado Springs. Later she got cancer, she died She died at St. Joe’s �26 Before she died, I wrote her a letter. And I still have the letter she wrote to me. I might give it to them someday. Mother Mary Joseph is presently Mother General. In the early 50’s I started a school of medical technology, and x-ray technology there. They were the first of those schools in the state of New Mexico. I have the original papers and other newspaper clippings. I’ll give them to the Archives. We also had the first blood bank in the state of New Mexico. The military came in trucks and busses and I would take their blood. The only way that you could keep a blood bank full was to put it on the radio. And sometimes the line was from the second floor down to the first floor of the old St. Joe’s hospital. Sometimes I’d be taking blood until 2:00 o’clock in the morning. But, we had to do that in order to keep the bank supplied. Some of the little hospitals in some of the little towns in New Mexico would call me, and I would call the police and I would send them the blood. Then there was a plane, it was called Citizens of Something that some times took blood to these small places. I started the first school of Medical Technologists in the state of New Mexico and the first organization of x-ray technology. These were state organizations. After I had been in the Community 16 years, I was allowed to go to the American Society of Medical Technologists Convention and X-ray Technologists Convention, too. What I learned there I would bring back and start it right away. Like, we went from rabbits in the pregnancy tests to frogs which you could find out about the pregnancy within a half hour. Now, they have all these different kinds of tests. In 1939 I came back here (Cincinnati) and I took Genetics courses and I went back to Trinidad. Somebody gave me a crookedneck white rabbit and a mate to go with it (the other one wasn’t crookedneck) so I wanted to know how many of their offrspring would be crookednecks because it was a deformity. I used to raise these rabbits, and they would come fast. The men in Trinidad would make me these boxes to keep these rabbits in. Father Ryan, who was a Jesuit, came out from the New York province because he wasn’t too well, and they gave him the job to help the poor. So, I would give him all these rabbits to give out for meat, because rabbit is good. �27 We always had an annual State Fair and I used to always have a booth, whether it was to advertise my school, or whether the students would go out and type blood for nothing, giving people a little card saying what their blood type was. One day, I walked around to see other booths and in one of them this man had ducks. You had to throw nickels on saucers and if you got a nickel on a saucer, you got a duck. Deep down in my heart I didn’t think that I should throw those nickels on that saucer because I didn’t think it looked too religious. So I stood there and just watched. Then, this man came over to me and asked me if I would like a duck and I said that I would love one. So, I took this duck home. This was in Albuquerque. I took this duck to the lab and I put it in a box. Later I got a galvanized tub and the men made me a screen to put over it so that the duck couldn’t get out. This little duck made a lot of noise. One student suggested that if we had another duck, that one duck wouldn’t make so much noise. She offered to go to the fair and bring me another duck, so she brought me another duck. They didn’t make any noise but they grew, and they grew, and they grew, so I couldn’t keep them in the lab anymore so I took them outside, but I had a problem of keeping them together. So, I thought I would take them up on the roof of the hospital. The roof of the hospital was gravel and tar. So they grew and they grew and they grew. None of them ever flew off, though. Whenever people would come to work at seven o’clock in the morning, you could hear these ducks...they made so much noise even though there were just two. Sister Mary Jude was Superior at this time. I got a telephone call one day and it was her asking me to come to her office right now. When I got down there, she asked me if I had ducks on the roof, and I admitted that I had. She told me that I had to get rid of them. So I suggested that I could have a duck dinner for the Sisters. She agreed. I asked for some money, because, we had 25 Sisters and I didn’t think two ducks would go around. So she said I could have the money. Agnes Patricia and I went down town and got more duck. So I knew that we couldn’t bother the big kitchen so we had our big dinner at Regina Hall. I got a duck stamp to stamp each napkin, and I got duck planters as prizes, and I had a duck movie and I asked the Doctors to give me their decoys. I took the silver paper that we get in x-ray and I had these decoys going from the door into the dining room. The nuns had so much fun when we had this meal on January 6. So year after year on January 6 we had a duck dinner as long as I was there. Everything was just ducky. �28 One day, I was called to x-ray a dead body that had just been dug up for a murder investigation. This body, a young man, had been buried for three weeks, and the odor was terrible, they took a sheet and dipped in formaldehyde and threw it over the body. I had to be in there because it was my department but the doctors did the preparation, and I took the picture and we saw where the bullet was. This was another thing which I never forgot. We had to do all sorts of things, whether we knew how to do them or not. For instance some of the times the doctors would have to give some anesthetic and they would have us “drop that ether”. I had never dropped ether before and I told the doctor that I didn’t know anything about this and I didn’t want to kill this person. But we were told to drop just a bit for the person to go out so that they could fix a bone. After my mother died, I knelt by my bed one night and prayed: “Mom, I don’t think that I can do this much longer”. I was called maybe four or five times a night all the time. Then I would work all day. The following August, I was missioned to St. Mary’s, Pueblo. But, the doctors, when they heard I was going, they all went to the Superior and told her that I couldn’t go because I did an enormous amount of work there. Four or five days after that I was told to stay. I stayed until 1954. Somebody told me that Sister Eugene Marie had said that I was the best technologist in the Community. Once, a group of us, S. Eugene Marie, Regina Marie, Carol Marie, Jean Hickey, and myself went a whole month to meet with these nationally known men who had done work with the RH factor. We went to Buffalo, New York City, New Jersey, there were five places that we went to as a group. We stayed about a week at each place. They were just wonderful to us. It was good to learn about how they came to find this and all about it. It meant a lot to us. END OF SIDE2 OF TAPE #2 �29 BEGINNING OF TAPE #3 I got a call from S. Amadea who said she needed me to come back to Trinidad. The government wanted to hire somebody for Senior Citizens. I said that I didn’t think I knew anything about Senior Citizens, but she assured me that I could do it. (May 1970)—So, I went to Trinidad . This was 150 miles that I had to serve in all these little towns. So, I thought, I’ll take a town one by one. So I went to Walsenburg which was the biggest place. I got in touch with the person who was working for the government in that area and asked that person to call a meeting of Senior Citizens to see if anybody was interested in things to be done for senior citizens. I think there were 12 people who came to the meeting. I asked them what they needed here. They said that they needed a place to come and socialize and play bingo or play cards or whatever. So, we decided that group of women would do the cooking for the dinner and that we begin by charging only fifty cents and then have bingo. I remember that we had 50 people there. I brought the prizes, like practical stuff like paper towels, sugar, flour, things that they could use in their homes. They had a wonderful time. We had a meeting after the bingo to see if there was anything that the people wanted to say. So, we started once a week. Every Tuesday we had this social time, and they just loved it. So, then, I took on Aguilar which was maybe 15 or 20 miles away from Walsenburg, so that was smaller. I called this meeting and I think I had 2 or 3 people who came. We talked and they thought that they wanted that same thing. So, we got that started. We did that on another day. I went to all these things now. Some of them had to be in the evening. Then I branched up 28 miles up into Gardener. This was in the mountains west of Walsenburg. Gardener was almost a skeleton city at this time. There were a lot of elderly people there. They even had a little church there and they had a priest who would stay there. I went there and asked them what they needed. They said that they needed a grocery store because one went bankrupt and the other one was burned down. There was a skeleton building there that had never been finished. So, because I worked for the government, I could go to Pueblo and get all of this stuff to finish this building for free. So, I would go up in a truck where I could get this stuff, and luckily four hippies came in to live there. They were nice fellows. I made a deal with them. I said that I would give them food if they would help me build this building. I would get all the stuff for them. �30 They would tell me what they needed. I would write this down and go off in my truck. I would bring a load down and the guys would work diligently, and I gave them food. So, this went on and the building was finished. I started a grocery store there. I used to go around to all the discount places, even if I could just get things down five cents for the poor people, they were satisfied with that. I stocked this store and I had to get somebody else to run it, because I was busy setting up all these other places. I got a respectful person, Josephine, who lived in Walsenburg to run it. She only lived about 28 miles away and she could do that. The store would be open just so many hours. WHERE DID YOU GET THE MERCHANDISE? DID YOU BRING IT IN? I did. And I only had a little Gremlin. When I started this, I called Assunta and I said that I needed a car. I didn’t drive at this time, so Frankie Mayo taught me to drive. When I went to this place to get this car, they had just got this lettuce green Gremlin with a white stripe around it. Of course, I didn’t know that this was a sports car, but it was a car. I learned to drive it, it was good on gas, it had a rack on top. I would get milk and bread, some meat, staple foods. Sometimes I would bring a cake or whatever. I would ask them what they needed. There were a number of these places in Trinidad, these discount places and I would buy this stuff with my money... the government’s money... and I would get whatever they needed. This went on as long as I was there, but nobody else would do this after I left. After that I went to Sopras toward the mountains near the Purgatory River. I went there and did the same thing. They wanted to socialize, so I set that up for them. Then I went East which was 75 miles from Trinidad. There were two towns to which I went there and set up this socializing thing. I went to everyone of these things, some of this had to be at night. Then there was another little town by the mountains which they call “the breasts” because there are two peaks there and there is a little town there, so I set things up there. DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING IN TRINIDAD ITSELF? Trinidad had its own. They were kind of “up-ish” people but I tried to work with them, and I became good friends of theirs. �31 So, after two years, I thought that we should have something big. So, I asked the Bishop of Pueblo if he would come down and have a Mass at the stadium. I had arranged buses to go to all of these places and bring these people in for the Mass. I had one person from every place to bring up an offertory procession what was indicative of their little place. Some of them brought up a piece of coal, whatever. I invited the Trinidad group to be the hospitality people. This was held in the stadium and it was full. The mariachi people did the music. It was a real Spanish celebration and it went over big. The presider was Bishop Buswell. The mariachis came down from Pueblo to do the music and everything went very well. This was the big culmination of setting up the whole project. The stadium was packed. At this point I thought that I was just babysitting here. The Executive Council wanted to know who was going to take my place. But I didn’t think that that was my responsibility. I then applied to go to South America BEFORE YOU START WITH SOUTH AMERICA, MAY I ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS? YOU WERE LIVING WITH S. AMADEA ALLTHIS TIME, COULD YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT HER? Well, she was more heart than prudence. For instance, if you ever rode in a car with Ami, you prayed like the dickens that she wouldn’t be hit. She would go like a snail. She would pick up every hitchhiker. I tried to warn her that all were not good. But just she just said that God would take care of her. Whenever she met a poor person on the street who asked her for some money, she would give them $50 or something. I told her that I thought the money ought to go where it would be used right. She said that he had promised to give it back to her. Of course I was sure that he wouldn’t give it back to her... and he didn’t give it back to her. But, Ami was so good, if she didn’t go to heaven in a hanging basket, I don’t have a chance. She contracted a circulatory disease that is hereditary. Her sister had it and died, her sister Dorothy had it and died after Ami did. Ami, in the cold weather her poor little hands would become all blue. She couldn’t really take care of herself. She and I lived together and Jean Therese lived there with us, Florence, Ami and myself. Towards the end she couldn’t even dress herself and Florence was so good to her. Still, she drove this car and I was scared to death that she would be killed in it. But, everybody knew Ami and they would just get out of our way when they saw her coming. She was one of the sweetest people. She was always affirmative with the people with whom she worked. And the people that she met and gave things to, she never thought bad of anybody. �32 One day I was looking for a place to set up a used clothing store. The place I found was on the main street of Trinidad. I went to the owner and asked him how much he wanted for rent and he said $150 a month. Well, I didn’t have a cent, but I said I would take it believing that God would come through. The senior citizens would make various things, I would take them in and give them the money back. People brought all kinds of nice things, shoes, dresses, etc. We got old mannequins from the stores etc. Nobody ever said no to us. It became a real nice store. I had to get somebody to help me run it, because I was doing so many things and out on the road. At the end of the first month, I asked the lady, Mrs. Ortega, how much money did we have. She said that we had $300 and therefore, I felt that we had enough to pay our rent. This project went on until I left Trinidad for good. Theophane took it over I think. A word about Theophane... she was just like Amadea... she would give money to anyone who asked for it. At one time, she didn’t have a job and she called me from Pueblo and asked me if she could help me in Trinidad. I invited her to come down and I knew that she could do something there. Betty Davis didn’t have anything to do either and I invited her down also. I gave them different places to go and take care of that would relieve me a bit. Sometimes I would be traveling at 12:30 at night coming home from those far eastern parishes. I never was afraid, I just locked the car door. HOW LONG WERE YOU THERE THAT TIME...IN TRINIDAD? Two years... in two years I set up seven centers, a used clothing store and a grocery store. By that time I was just babysitting. That is when I asked to go to South America in August of 1972. In June of 1972 I drove my car from Trinidad to the Motherhouse. I expected to go to Ecuador in September. But, we had our first Congress that year so I stayed for that. While I was in Cincinnati, I stayed at St. William’s and they gave me the goingaway service there. Father Bob Strassel was there and he had the service and all the missionaries who happened to be in Cincinnati at the time participated. After the Congress, I went down to New Orleans waiting for the ship to go out because I was booked to go on the GULF BANKER, which is a cargo ship (freighter). Sister Stephanie drove me from St. William’s with all this stuff that I was taking. I had sent down all the equipment and things from St. Williams to New Orleans on the Greyhound bus and they kept that there in their warehouse until I arrived and was ready to board ship �33 The day before I was to board I was called. I got a truck and two men and we went down to the warehouse where the men put everything into the truck and we took it down to where we were to board. I boarded the next day. We never have to pay anything if they don’t put it down in the hold of the ship. They had an extra cabin, and they filled my room from floor to ceiling. So none of it had to go in the hold. The ship only had room for 13 passengers. One particular couple had a gentleman who was ill with a terminal disease and she was taking him on this voyage clear around the western side of South America. She was so distraught with this, so she used to come in our cabin and cry. There is always two to a cabin and I had a nice young lady there. They give you the service on these freighters like you would have in a hotel. They change your bed every day, they would have fruit on a table in the center of the room. And every place that they stopped to leave cargo, we were given enough time to go to the surrounding places and visit. They would post eight hours before the ship would leave so we had plenty of time. When we got to Columbia, it was so hot there that I thought I would just collapse. So we went to a place to eat our meal where I had a real cold beer, and it never tasted better to me in my life than it was with that meal. We went to Calle which was two hours away in Columbia. We never knew where we were going to stop, so I feel like I have been in every port in Columbia. DID YOU GO THROUGH THE CANAL? We went through the Canal and that was another lovely experience. It takes 8 hours to go through, and we went through half by day and half by night (darkness). It is just marvelous to see how that water comes in from that lake and raises that heavy ship to the lock.... there’s three locks. There was one lane going south and another going north... we would wave to the people on the other ships going north as we were going south. We stopped at Cristobal where we could get all kinds of drinks that were tax free and every that one buys is tax free, so I got a beautiful tablecloth for one of my cousins, a linen tablecloth for nearly nothing. At one stop we went up and found a church and went to Mass there. For me it was the first time traveling that way and I was all eyes and ears. It was a beautiful experience. If anybody can get a freighter and go through the canal it is well worthwhile. �34 HOW LONG WAS THE VOYAGE FROM NEW ORLEANS TO WHERE YOU WERE GOING? Well, you could never have an appointment at the other end, because you have to stop at all these places where they have cargo; you have to go with the tides in the ports, some have strikes etc. Well, we were supposed to leave New Orleans and in 10 days we would be in Ecuador. But, I never had that happen to me. Once I was aboard ship for a whole month. The cost was very reasonable. I only paid about $375 to go down. The first time it took me about 17 or 18 days. I kept in touch with the place where I was going, so that the Sisters could meet me when I arrived. I was scheduled to go to El Puyo with Dominican nuns who had a clinic there. They were supposed to meet me. Well, I had all this stuff and had to be very careful to stay with all the boxes, I got off and then I followed the boxes The Sisters were waiting with a jeep there. HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR MISSION? I corresponded with different relief efforts, and this was a relief that was stationed in Santa Barbara. I even went to Santa Barbara to see these people. They place you but they don’t give you any money to carry on. They knew about this place that needed a medical technologist to start a laboratory. DID YOU SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT YOU WANTED TO BE IN A PLACE WHERE THERE WERE OTHER SISTERS? No, but as I was a Sister they kind of placed me there. These were not Ecuadorian Sisters, they were American... Dominican Sisters. Two of them were there, one was a nurse and the other taught school. The monastery of Dominicans that was in Guayaquil is the place where the ship took us. The priests had a monastery there and when the Sisters came down from the mountains, they would have a place to stay. We only stayed there overnight. The next day we hade a 10 hour ride in this jeep to where we were going, El Puyo. �35 DID YOU SPEAK SPANISH? Buenos dias, buenos tardes, buenos noches.... that’s all. I managed to get along very well. DID THE PEOPLE AT EL PUYO SPEAK SPANISH OR ENGLISH? They spoke Spanish and some Indian... it was the outer part of the jungle. It was way up in the mountains...beautiful. The river ran along at about a 15 ft drop and all along the river there was only room for one car, then they had places a few miles apart where you had to go to pass another car. I was so frightened, I couldn’t look down. I thought that if I ever got there I would not leave until I would be going home. At El Puyo there was a clinic and a little house that we lived in...all cement. We had individual rooms and we had a little chapel. I tried to set up a little laboratory where I could. The Indians would come in from the jungle to deliver their babies and they would come in for other things, too. So I would do the blood work for them or any other special tests. DID THEY HAVE EQUIPMENT THERE OR DID YOU BRING ALL THAT OUT? I brought it with me. I went there realizing that they were about 50 years behind us so I took the stuff down that I would need. So it worked out pretty well. I was there a whole year. In December I wrote to Stephanie in Peru that I would be coming over for Christmas because she was alone. She had a room in this school building which was cement and she probably did social service work with the poor. Before I left her on January 4, we had an earthquake. The other Sister had gone home to spend Christmas and so I had a room. I had a little aluminum bed. During the earthquake, the bed was going from wall to wall. We opened the door and stood in the doorway the best place to be during the earthquake. It lasted, it seemed like an hour, but it was only a few minutes. When it ended, we went back to bed. I stayed with her until after Christmas == AN ASIDE== Before I first went to Peru, on December 12, while the Dominican Sister and I were eating a little supper and there was a rap on the door and she went to the door and I heard Stephanie’s voice. She had come to get me. We left about 4 o’clock in the morning to take the bus to go to Guayaquil where we would take a plane to Peru.== �36 I met a younger priest who was a native Ecuadorian who asked me if I would go down to his clinic which was down close to the ocean. At that clinic we had 150 people a day. This was at (Milagro) where I was closer to Guayaquil, only 45 minutes away. There was another Dominican Sister, Sister Rosario who was a nurse who came there to work. Sister Jean Patrice came to visit us there. This priest, I thought at first when I first met him, that he was a very, very good guy. But, as time went on, the only time that he was there at his parish was on weekends when he said Mass. Otherwise, he went to the University of Guayaquil and he stayed there in the Dominican house. He was learning to be a lawyer. He had a terrible temper. One night, when Rosario had been cooking, we were at the table, and he said to her that she should really learn to speak Spanish and she answered him that at least she was speaking it and he was not speaking English. He slapped her and he left the table. From that time on I watched my p’s and q’s with him. We only stayed there a year. At every place that I went, it just killed me to see, every day, these little white coffins go through the streets. Children never had a chance from birth to 3 years old. Custom was very important to the people, and these children would not get any solid food until they were 3 years old. Their little bodies were not strong enough to even live. So, I would teach them in the laboratory that when they had potatoes to eat, mash some up and put a little green from the wheat and give them to the children. Also taught them how to mash a little bit of banana and let the children eat it. After 6 months they ought to have solid food in their stomach. It was just terrible to see all these little ones die from malnourishment. The mothers meant well, but this was what their mothers did and they thought that this was what they were supposed to do. That was a big thing for me. I had an awful time dealing with that. What is needed is to have somebody go down there and teach them. Then I was invited to Guayaquil. �37 This was a huge clinic on the side of the big church, named San Francisco. The Spanish Fathers had this and there was a Sister who was a Franciscan from Peoria, Illinois who was in charge of this clinic. So I went down there and asked her about setting up a little laboratory there and she was very nice to me. Sister Corita was her name. When I had been in Milagro, there was a young lady who had graduated from the University of Guayaquil in medical technology but had no place to practice her skills. She came from Milagro and worked with me for several months and she stayed on when I left. Guayaquil is the biggest city in Ecuador. While I was there I met a priest who was a member of the Fathers of St. James from Boston. These priests were in Ecuador, Peru and Columbia and other countries. This priest, Father John Moriarity was in a little town called Duran. His parish was named Santa Mary Anita. One day as he and I were talking I asked him if he would like a clinic in his parish, and he said yes. So, when I finished at San Francisco in Guayaquil, I went across the river to Duran and set up a clinic there. I suggested that Father talk to the doctors, but he insisted that I do it all. I had to prepare a list of what I had and gave that to a doctor in a notebook so he would know what we had at the clinic. The Doctor would write out a prescription and then the people would come to the clinic to fill the prescription. We used to have between 75 and 100 people a day. I couldn’t open the clinic until 2:00 o’clock in the afternoon because there were about 700 kids in the school and they were in the way. So, I waited until school was out to open the clinic. One day a month, Sister Corita would receive these huge boxes of used glasses from the Lions in Minneapolis and we would sort them out, men’s, women’s, children’s. And for a whole day, once a month we had “glass day”. At 7 o’clock in the morning they were lined up no less than a hundred. For only a few sucres they could get a pair of glasses. They would just try them on “trial and error” until something would help them. �38 Another thing that Father would do once or twice a year, he would line up these Boston doctors who could do facial or plastic surgery. You have no idea how many children had harelips in Ecuador. These doctors would come down and go to one of the hospitals and the would teach the Ecuadorian doctors how to perform these surgeries. These American doctors would stay 4 or 5 days to do this and are still doing this. I thought that was great. Father Moriarity had a big celebration for my Golden Jubilee in Ecuador and he also came here for my celebration. He had the Archbishop come to celebrate the jubilee Mass in Ecuador and there many people there to celebrate. The doctors from the United States were there and took some beautiful pictures. I have this picture that they took in the church for the celebration. Everybody and his brother came to this celebration. In 1980, I started thinking that it was time for me to go home, so I wrote to Barbara Padilla. She came down for 12 weeks and decided that that was what she wanted. So, she replaced me, but this past year they asked her not to come back, so she is working someplace else. In the Fall of 1980, Sister Margaret Ebbing, the Regional, asked me if I would go work with the East Coast Migrant Health Project. So I was signed to go to Immokalee, Florida to work with the migrants. In the summer time I went to Southern Jersey. I did that for 2 years. Down in Florida they were all illegals from Mexico and they didn’t want to be sent back so I would have to go out and get them and bring them to the clinic. It was like finding a needle in a haystack. They wouldn’t give their right name and so it was just terrible just trying to find them. In Jersey was just the opposite. There it was wonderful, the land owners had nice places for them to live. We were told that we were there to change their life... and we tried. We were getting federal money for these clinic. But, in Florida, the people lived in rough sewage. They had mattresses to lay on in cars or on the ground and those things were filthy. �39 I had met a young guy in another town and I asked him if he would come with me and write this up and publish it. I told him that I would take him to three places. At about this time, the first 1500 Haitians came over. These Haitians spoke Creole and were from a very refined culture. I often asked myself why the state didn’t do something about this. Why couldn’t Public Health go around and see this. The young man wrote this up and published this in this paper. Then, Public Health said why didn’t I go over to them with the complaint. But I was thinking they should be out there looking for these things. I got a slap on the wrist from Margaret Ebbing. But, I thought to myself that they wanted us to change the life of these people and we worked at it. I began to wonder why I was using my energy on this, but I stayed on for 2 years, then I resigned. As to Jersey, I loved it. There was a wonderful group of people to work with it was great. I still go up there and visit with them. I had to drive 1200 miles every six months from Florida to Jersey. It took me two days and a half to drive up. I’d just get on Route 95 and then down to 75. I never was afraid. Another reason was that we had a fuzzy dog and I used to sit it up on a box in the car and from the back, people would think that I had a dog, but, of course, if they came around the side, they would know that it was fake. When I was in Jersey I stayed with the Sisters of St. Joseph of Mercy. After I resigned from the work in Florida and Jersey... in 1982... I felt called to refugees. A little inner voice told me that the refugees would be next in my life. I spoke to Helen Flaherty and told her that I felt called to go down and work with the refugees in South Texas. I didn’t know what I would be doing, but I wanted to go down to see what I could do. I told her that if I found a niche I wouldn’t come back, and if I didn’t find a place I would come back. Her answer was: “God speed, Charles” Sister Alma had a week off over at the College, so she drove down with me. When I got down there I saw all of these people coming over the boarder with only the clothes on their back. �40 To feed them became my great concern. I asked myself where we would get the food to feed these people. So I decided to go around to see what I could do. I went to the dairy (Hygea Dairy), I met with the head honcho, I told him who I was and what I wanted to do, and would he help me. He said that he could give me so much ice cream every week, he could give me a lot of cottage cheese and some drinks, like orange juice. I told him thanks and that I would be back on whatever days he wanted me to come to collect this. He told me Tuesday and Thursday. That was the first place I had gone and I got into a loving relationship with the dairy from the President on down. I ended having so much food that sometimes I would have to make two or three trips.... just from the dairy! All of this took place in Harlingen, Texas. From then on, I went down to where the trucks brought in all these vegetables from the farms... a processing place. The first guy I met, I introduced myself. He told me that he was a good Baptist, but he had a guy in there that was supposed to be a good Catholic so he told me to go in and talk to him. So I went in and talked to him about what I wanted to do. He told me that he could give me “seconds”. I asked him what were “seconds”... he said, like a carrot, if its not straight it can’t be sold, sometimes potatoes, sometimes other vegetables. So I asked him what day he would want me to come down.... ABRUPT END TO TAPE #3 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Metz, Sister Judith, SC Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Strassel, Charles Miriam, SC Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Trinidad (Colo.) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 4 Hours 31 Minutes 45 Seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Charles Miriam Strassel, SC Interviewed by Sister Judith Metz, SC March 16, 1993 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic hospitals -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Charles Miriam Strassel by Sister Judith Metz. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Strassel, Charles Miriam, SC; Metz, Sister Judith, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/16/1993 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource "Audio/mp3 Audio/cassette Application/pdf" Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Charles Miriam Strassel, SC Interviewed by Sister Judith Metz, SC March 16, 1993 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1912-1993 Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/89cf9c9c9e784f0ad4fc0a96b38e00c2.jpg 465489867d7eba778d2383545718ca31 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/72ecaed52cb3afe3a1ae15c3163741ba.mp3 0c106bae067317378b1c76c950e2dcb2 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/20a6392e75533da22f392f7f2a7546f7.pdf bd0c6482566d93604619fa81ecc1a97b PDF Text Text Sister DePaul Sandoval in her room at St. Mary's in the Motherhouse interviewed by S. Victoria Marie Forde - July 26, 2007 Sister DePaul Sandoval, 94, in her room at St. Mary's in the Motherhouse interviewed by S. Victoria Marie Forde - July 26, 2007 Sister, what was your life like before entering the Sisters of Charity? Very busy. I was from a family of 12; 3 had died before I was born. We lived on a ranch in Colorado and we all pitched in to help. Our life was very busy; we all had our duties. I was one of five girls. There were four boys, and they needed more help out doors with hay, and with the garden. And my brothers used to train horses, and when one brother finished training them, when he thought it was safe enough for someone else to ride them, he would let me ride them. That was very exciting for me. I loved the outdoors. I worked in the garden with my mother, and I helped her with the cows and calves. In the evening I'd get on my horse and go find the cows wherever they happened to be. They were very stubborn and decided to start eating when I would find them, so I'd be very angry, and by the time I got home it was dark. I loved that work because it was all outdoors. How many acres? Oh, I don't know. It was a very large ranch. There was a mountain this side, and a mountain on the other side. My brother used to have to go up and feed the cattle in the winter and the summer and check on them, and the roads weren't very safe. After my father and sisters died, my nephew was left in charge of the ranch. He sold the mountain and the land down the plain. Then he piped in water from the mountain; that way there was enough water for the summer because it could get very dry. So he piped in water from the springs, and it is much easier now. My nephew and his son run the ranch. Do they still have horses and cows? They still have horses and cows and a lot of work. This past winter was pretty difficult because of the snow, and they were trapped. The county made a road, but they made it one way. If they met someone coming, they would have to move back up. So they're still working out there. They have charge of their property, and they have a meeting, but I'm out of it. I'm not in it at all; I signed over my part to the family when I left. Tell me about when you left. How did you know the Sisters of Charity? I always knew from when I was very young that I wanted to be a Sister. My sister used to get literature from Miraculous Medal Association and holy cards with a picture of St. Vincent DePaul, and I looked at St. Vincent DePaul and I looked at St. Vincent de Paul and I just loved him, with the children. I thought, "Well, that's going to be my choice." I was sent to the Sisters of Mercy high school because they had a boarding school. Where? in Raton? Yes, Raton. I was there four years; I graduated from St. Patrick's Academy. I enjoyed it very much. It was during the Depression, and there wasn't much money around, so we used to pitch in and help the Sisters doing janitorial work and taking care of the younger children. There was one brought in about two months old, and the Sisters took care of her until she graduated from high school. We had all kinds of children small girls and boys. There were some who came from the East with tuberculosis for the clean air and I used to help them go up the stairs, because they were short of breath. I loved to work with those people. There was a lady there from Dayton who had tuberculosis and she was kind of confined to an area in the parlor. She used to play the piano beautifully. While the Sisters were saying their prayers, I let her play my music pieces while I read a book. She later died in New Mexico. It kept us very busy. We'd rather have a janitor. We had a security man who worked between the Novitiate and the Motherhouse. The Sisters entered there; they went East. They were not amalgamated. They entered in Raton; from Raton they didn't have the potential of getting their instructions that they needed, so they put them to work right away. I liked the Mercies, but I was not attracted to their way of life; they were too scattered. They were in different places, �having to teach in different places, and I didn't think there was enough time for religious life—being together and praying together. I still had in my mind that picture of St. Vincent DePaul. I never forgot it. My Sister used to tease me about it "that little old man." I had devotion to St. Vincent. When I finished high school, I went to Trinidad Junior College for one year, and I used to pray my "office" every day and kind of looked at the Sisters of Charity, but I couldn't make up my mind—but I knew 1 wanted to be a Sister if nothing else. What were you studying? I was studying history and languages—a few things, psychology. We walked a lot. One student had a car -there were about 28 students. The boy with the car put all the boys on the fenders wherever he would go; the rest of us walked. It was during the Depression. I felt attracted to the children of the ministers because they behaved better than the others. I used to go to their homes. I felt close to them—from different churches. My Dad was the same way. To him there were no nationalities, no religions. People were people; he loved them all. I followed that pattern because he just loved everybody. He had friends of every nationality, everywhere. Were you bilingual? Yes, I spoke Spanish and English. After I went one year of junior college, my brother died. We couldn't hire workers. I helped as much as I could with the cattle. In the mornings we would gather them and get them out to the pasture. So I stayed home that year and the following year. During the Depression gas was hard to get, and the cars were in terrible condition. We had to push them half the way. One day we stopped, my sister and I—we went to Trinidad with my brother (the one who had died from brain cancer), and as we were going past Holy Trinity Convent (my sister had gone to Holy Trinity for one year in Trinidad), my sister said, "Let's stop by and see Sister Cornelius," and I said, "Oh, I bet she's busy." Well, she opened the door, and she was so gracious and so polite and so sweet to us. She took us up to the parlor and listened to us. My sister, of course, knowing her, was telling her, "My sister is teaching catechism to kids." While I was driving the cattle, I would see these children who were going to the public school—a rural school, and I said to myself, "Those children have not received their First Holy Communion. They haven't had any chance to get any instructions. I think I'll start a class." So I started a class on Sunday. I would gather about eight children from the neighborhood. I had enough sense to ask Father if I could do it, and he said, "Yes, bring them in once a month and I'll check them out, test them." (That was Fr Sylvestiani. a native of Trinidad.) So I was thinking more and more of becoming a Sister, but my brother had died, and I didn't feel like I could leave right then. Being the time of the Depression. It was hard to get what you needed. Getting back to the conversation with Sister Cornelius, when my sister told about my teaching catechism out there at the ranch, she said, "Oh, there should be a Sister," and I said, "I'm going to be one." She said, "Are you going to be a Sister of Mercy?" I said, "No, I'm going to be a Sister of Charity." When she said, "What makes you say that?" "Well, I always wanted to be a Sister of Charity." She said, "Would you like to meet our Mother General? She's downstairs in the dining room." I couldn't believe it - that she would leave the dining room with the Mother General down there. So we went down to the dining room. Mother Mary Regina and Sister Mary Carlos came up the steps to the office and met with my sister and me. She said, "Would you like to go in February?" Well," I said, "I think that's too soon. "I think I'll wait till later." She said, "Well, you can come in September." She accepted me right away— no questions or any tests. She said, "Sister Maria George will send you an application. It will be very simple"— just fill in my name. It was at the very time that Sister Blandina's book came out. My dad had been taught by S. Justina and maybe by S. Blandina - I'm not sure about that, but S. Justina was very good to him. He was very much a part of the Charities. Would you tell us something about your father and S. Blandina and Justina? The book came out in 1932, but this is before then. S. Justina was very good to him - gave him a primary book - for first grade -just starting out, and she turned to the back where it had the alphabet, and some of the bigger boys said, "Well you're so smart, you're already finished with the book." So he got up to get his cap and go home, so Sister just took him and was very kind to him, very gentle. �She said, "Don't pay any attention to them." So she took care of those boys, and they never bothered him again. He really made headways; he was a very brilliant man; he worked very hard. He was living with his aunt and step mother, but I think he spent most of his time with Cecilia Adamson. My aunt, Celia Adamson, was the one who took care of Sister Fidelis. And her daughter was the one who slept in the kitchen on a mattress, and Willie, that she spoke about, was my cousin; she spoke of William Adamson. [See Sister Fidelis Goes to Trinidad, privately published.] They took very good care of S. Fidelis when she arrived. They were there waiting for her. Willie would take her to church. The first time she went to Mass, she stayed to say some prayers after Mass. Willie told her, "The people won't leave until you do." Willie really was her right hand man, and then Willie was the right hand man for S. Blandina. They thought he was one of the vigilantes that followed Billy the Kid. Billy would have only been thirteen years old, hardly the leader of a gang. There was William Cornelius and there was another William, but they were all called "the Kid." I don't know too much about the time when S. Blandina was in Trinidad except for what is in the book. The time S. Fidelis was there, my cousins just kept her under their wings. Whatever they had, they shared with her, and I don't see how that poor Sister. . . She had just made her vows, just 20 years old. They were saints because the worst thing, I would think, was that the Indians could be coming, or they could be attacked by the outlaws. They had a lot of respect for the religious, but it was good to have someone in the house, particularly at night. It took months before Fidelis heard from the Sisters who had gone on to Santa Fe. The other Sister spoke Spanish. It really wasn't necessary because Willie and my aunt - I'm sure they spoke English. They were fur traders. I guess that's the end of that story, but when the Sisters came back, I guess S. Fidelis got relieved but I just want to feel sorry for her. One thing I'll ways wonder, how did Felipe Baca know the Sisters of Charity, and he said he would give this land to the Sisters of Charity who teach in the school, the Sisters of Charity from Cincinnati. How did he know that? That's very puzzling to me. [Oct. 30, 2007 - Sister said that she found out that Felipe Baca's daughter Mercedes had been a Sister of Charity but had died after a few years and was buried in Cincinnati. (Entered 1878-Died 1881). She and her niece had just visited her grave in old St. Joseph's Cemetery.] He did give the land for the school? Yes, Felipe Baca did give land. It just came up a year ago that there was a condition that every Baca would be tuition-free. Unfortunately, the last year the Jesuits were there, there was one Baca, and she was told she had to pay tuition just like everyone else, and that was a big hurt, for they had been there for many years, and the school was there, and it had grown. It was sad that that one girl applied at Holy Trinity; that was the last year it was open. [Closed May 2000]. So that was recently then? Yes, that was recently. What do you know abut the Jesuits coming to Trinidad? The Jesuits were not the first ones; there were Franciscans. Those early priests were criticized for what they did, and it was unfortunate because they were the only ones who understood the people and went -sometimes maybe in a bar - to talk to the people. They had to do things that the people didn't expect priests to be doing - like working and hammering and building and maybe socializing a little. I imagined they needed some socializing; so they went into a bar for a beer. But that was held against them, and I always felt bad about that. It was the same in New Mexico where the Jesuits were staying. They were criticized. So they left and the Jesuits came? I think there was one Franciscan left Fr. (Monaco?) He built the church and my father held the box that they put in the cornerstone. S. Mary Joseph told me it was made by two students (my nephew was one of them). It was made of solid wood; it was a very beautiful thin. The windows and everything are exactly the same as they used to be. The church is very beautiful. The question was asked, "Why don't you modernize it like we did to [Motherhouse] Chapel?" I love the Chapel because I can still see where I knelt when we made our vows and where I sat when we received the �habit right in the sanctuary. We received them there and then we went to our rooms to put them on. Getting back to the entrance story-After you talked to Mother and S. Mary Carlos and then you said you were going to enter in September - and so what happened? I think you finished telling us about Blandina and Justina and Fidelis right? They sent me a list of all that I would need. It was during the Depression and it was hard to get everything. My sister was a seamstress, so she made some things. There were two girls who were going to enter but changed their minds, so Sister Cornelius has some things. There was another girl who entered with me but she was not acquainted with the Sisters; she only stayed a month. S. Marietta Scanlon who had been in Trinidad for a long time, a good friend of S. Cornelius, had been missioned to Springfield, Ohio. She had to use a ticket on August 17, so S. Cornelius wrote to me and asked me if I could go early—it was quite a few days early. So I was all ready, had my trunk packed. You say she wrote to you. Wasn't she right there in Trinidad? Yes, she wrote to me; we were out on the ranch. We got to Trinidad on the 16th. Was your mother still living then? My mother was living, but she died that year after I left. My brother had died the year before, my grandfather the year before - three deaths in the family in a short time. But my family was very cooperative; never once did they say no. Where do you come among your sisters? Were you the youngest? I'm the youngest of the girls. There were two younger boys after me. I'm the only survivor of the family. The last four died when I was in Trinidad before I came here. One was a Franciscan Sister. A Franciscan? Yes, she was too old for the Charities, so she found a priest for spiritual assistance from Colorado Springs and she was a saint, they just loved her. She died at the same time that the other three died. How old was she that she was too old for the Charities? She was thirty or something. She just made the registration [of the Franciscans] by the skin of her teeth. They told her just come to Denver. She was there for a few months—I guess as a postulant; then they sent her to Lafayette, Indiana. They had a Motherhouse there. I don't think they're connected there any more because they went to Mt. St. Francis. In Colorado Springs? Yes. So then she went back there Yes, and that's where she died. She was there many years. They loved her. What was her name? Sister Mary Carlotta— after my Dad. And I made twenty-seven retreats at Mt. St. Francis. Together we made twenty-one. I still love that place. Can we go back to where you came on the train when you were entering? I was sick. You were sick? �They had a Pullman, and I had to stay in bed all day. You and Sister? Marietta and Sophia. We arrived, and the Sisters were walking up and down the Avenue waiting for us at three in the morning, and they took us first to the sewing room and ironed our capes. Then they took us to the bathhouse to get cleaned up. We had to open the windows on the train and all the Kansas dust came in. Where was the bathhouse? It was behind the Chapel, and you had to go through the sunporch, and we had to put our nightgown on under our habit. We got cleaned up and they put us to bed. We didn't sleep good at all. After a while they brought us down to where people were working at the mangle. You couldn't stop the mangle - they had to keep going, so those people were relieved, and then we ate with them. And I was surprised! Of all things there was a big bowl of ice cream - homemade ice cream. I didn't think I was ever going to see ice cream again, or candy or any of those things. I was surprised at all that we had - and I loved them all even when I was away out West. So you stayed here [at Mt. St. Joseph] while you were a postulant and a novice? Yes, a postulant and through my canonical [year]. They made me teach when I was a postulant. I went to St. Williams then I loved it. I taught third grade at St. Williams—I gained some prestige. You entered in what year? 1933 So you stayed at St. Williams and taught for a while? A whole year. I was there when my mother died. I couldn't go home because traveling was very difficult - it took three days, it was too long. I didn't see my family for five years. Then I finally went West to Pueblo. That's after you made vows? I had made my first vows before I went to Pueblo in 1936. All that time you were canonical - and all that? I made my perpetual vows in 1939. So you were traveling back and forth between the West and the East? Yes, for vows we did. St. Francis in Pueblo is where you were teaching? Yes, I was teaching. We are going to talk about the vows now. S. Gabrielle gave us our instructions the first summer, and we received the postulant habit the fifteenth of August and the novice habit on the second of July. That was the last time we had a Reception. Was that the brown habits? No, it was black—flannel two inches thick, and it was so hot—oh, so hot. We had a cape and an apron and a �white gimp. Is that when they gave it to you, and you went someplace else and put it on? That was the only time - I may be wrong - but I know they had it right in the sanctuary. And we received our names. And when we went to ask Mother and petitioned for our vows, she asked us what name we wanted. Very few got what they wanted. Anyway, when she said what name did I want, I said Sister DePaul and that's because she herself, when she [Mother Regina] was in China, Sister DePaul Walsh died [in Cincinnati], and when she came home, she said, (Mother Regina was very close to me), "I think that Sister DePaul died to accommodate you." And I thought about that, and I always wanted DePaul in some way. But she thought, "Well, that's the only thing" - so I took the best I could get, and I didn't change it. My friend [St. Vincent DePaul] - sitting there on the windowsill—I used to get roses and fix 'em up and put them there. It's a beautiful statue with the children. Yes, the children, that's what appealed to me. That's why I liked being at St. Patrick's Academy where there were orphans and different ones that came in. I got so attached to them. And I loved children. I loved teaching little children, and I did get up to junior high, and then after I taught for several years I said I wanted to go back to first grade. I wanted to do some things that I hadn't done in a while. Someone said "I thought she would have lost her mind." But I would have stayed in first grade all my life if they would have let me do it. So they came there to learn—I don't know how they do it now, but they would sit there with their hands folded, looking at you, especially at St. Francis. There was one little boy who wouldn't leave the class after registration, and he just sat there. So his brother asked if this was going to be his room, and after the third time, I said, "Yes. Doesn't he want it to be?" He couldn't believe it was true. Rita Mary helped me with all the altar decorations, so I fixed it up and 1 always tried to make it as pretty as I could. This was in Pueblo? No, St. Francis [Xavier} in Albuquerque. I taught there for eleven and a half years. You lived at the [St. Vincent ] Academy? Yes, but then St. Francis got a convent. What years were you there? Do you remember? I don't remember that. That's all right. I was just wondering if I was in high school while you were there. Yes you were there and your two sisters. Did you open any missions? Did you go to any missions when they were just starting? Yes, St. Francis. The school was already there. We started the community You remember any Community Customs - before Vatican II? I had gone to boarding school, and we washed our dishes at the table. The only difference was washed our own in the pantry. I had a lot of practice at St. Patrick's because they were very poor, and we did the torial work with the dishes and with the little ones and so many things. I was so happy. I would tell Sophia, "It's so ;ty her," and she'd say, "I hate to tell you what I think of it." I have the second letter that I sent home. have it? Yes, it's very faded. I have it some place; I was showing it to someone. If I come across it, I will show you. I .just raving about the place. I was so happy, and I spoke about Sister Blandina, and I said she's a very sweet Sister. �is when you met Sister Blandina in the infirmary? Tell us about that. When I told the Sisters that my dad had been taught by S. Justina and S. Blandina, they said, "Well, S. Blandina in the infirmary." [Unclear] Then I got the job of bringing trays to the Sisters in this area - the infirmary. They about eleven Sisters who were bedridden. (The others had to stay in the mission until they got worse.) And one of them was Sister Blandina, and I was assigned to Sister Blandina. I had brought her tray to her, and she was talking in Spannish to me. She remembered Spanish people. And I took her tray one time and put it on what I thought was a nice beautiful table with beautiful flowers, and a chair around it, and she said, "I want to tell you something. It isn't …ty to put the tray on the commode." I didn't know what a commode was. I didn't put them on the commode again, get some good laughs. And we talked about some people in Trinidad. And before I left, I got her interested in the Adamsons. ---------------- tape 1 ends here. Continued on tape 2----------------------Continuation of Sister De Paul - Tape 2 Today is Nov. 13, 2007, and I, Sister Victoria Marie Forde, am in Sister De Paul Sandoval's room [in St. Mary's, Mt. St. Joseph]. She is kind enough to retape part of her oral history interview because the tape, we did it on [a minicassette] wasn't of good sound quality. Sister De Paul, you told us that you were one of the first ones who started the community at St. Francis in Albuquerque. Do you want to tell us some details about that? Father was building a church, a new church, and so the old church was left for classrooms, so we could use it for a convent. So we turned, converted some of the rooms upstairs into the convent. The eighth grade classroom was the community room, and they left the blackboards because they probably had needed them to study at night. And it was not a very nice looking place because the windows were big. We didn't have drapes or curtains that would fit them, and we had blackboards to get rid of because we didn't want them there. S, Catherine Roberta [McCullough] and myself took them down when S. Elizabeth Regina went for a meeting. We asked her if we could do it, and she said, "Do anything you want; I'll be out of town." So we pulled the. . . We got some tools and S. Catherine Roberta wanted to start it, and I said, "No, you don't know how to use tools. You're from Cincinnati." So the doorbell rang, and I went to answer it, and when I came back, she had already taken down some of the blackboards. We spent a very cold winter there. The wind would blow and the sand came in and the windows, the wood was so thin. And we didn't have enough, we didn't have blankets. Then a few ladies found out we didn't have blankets, so they bought us one blanket each. And we didn't have, we couldn't heat upstairs. So most of the time we'd go to bed early so we wouldn't catch colds, and the wind would blow into, through the drafty windows. So we managed very well for a while. We didn't have much money to start to get much furniture, so we found old chairs and removed, I knew how to remove the varnish from the chairs with varnish remover and how to paint them and we managed to furnish the rooms, and some desks, they were not varnished, so we varnished them too. And Sister Adele Baca lived with us, she was one of our Sisters, and her family had a store, a family store, so she ordered the groceries from there, and I'm sure they doubled the order whatever she ordered plus a bag of black jelly beans for Sister Adele. So we managed. We got apples from. . . . Sister Isabella gave us some of the commodities and school supplies that they used to get, and she gave us some apples and some cheese. They used to get a lot of apples and cheese so we had cheese sandwiches and apples cut up with grapefruit juice and nutmeg for dessert. And the place was very cold and drafty, but the people were very wonderful. They came forth with whatever they could do o help us. There was a very wonderful carpenter who made a beautiful china chest to put our dishes and they tried to plaster the parts of the paper that were falling down, so I used the paint right out from the bucket. And then the next morning I came in and it was cracked, worse than it was before, so we removed them and started again. All this time S. Catherine Roberta and S. Raymond [Glutz] would help along, and we cleaned up the place as much as we could. And we managed to live there very well for a couple of years. Little by little we started getting things. And then we got furniture for the chapel. S. Rita Patrick had a friend in Detroit who donated a hundred dollars and we had some money to build the prie-dieus and we used the chairs that we had the chairs that we had varnished, not very well. And the altar was we took the paint off of it, and that beautiful wood, that beautiful wood, Father Mazza, [S. J.], was at St. Mary's, and he came and he wanted to fix the chapel. He removed the paint [on the altar] and put horsehide with tacks, beautiful tacks, and we had money to buy new curtains for behind the altar, and it was beautiful because it had windows above. It was the operating room from the Santa Fe Hospital, and now St. Francis convent. First it was a school, but it was sold to the parish of St. Francis. First it was a hospital? Yes, it was a hospital. First it was a hospital, the Santa Fe Railroad people, the Santa Fe Hospital. So first it was the Santa Fe Railroad Hospital in Albuquerque, and then they sold it to the parish. Yes, to the parish, and the parish converted it into a school, and we had a school, and for a long time we went there. We went back and forth �from St. Vincent Academy, and then Father decided to build a new church, they'd have room, and we would have a convent [top floor of the school]. Sister De Paul, you told us that you had a long teaching career that you loved, but when you were in Trinidad, something happened, that the Sisters didn't go back to teaching one year? Sisters were not given. . . . In the spring Sister used to give us a paper with intent if we wanted to come back or not. So the Sisters, three of us did not get this paper of intent, and the lay teachers had theirs, and we wondered why. So when I asked Sister, Sister James Ellen, she wouldn't answer. She just walked away. So I never knew why we were terminated. Who were the three? Sister Joseph Elizabeth Pino, Roberta Marie, and myself. Sister Roberta had been terminated the year before. Well then, what did you do, once you were terminated? Once I was terminated, I didn't know what to do. I just prayed. And within a couple of days, the lady who ran the adult learning center for the junior college called me and asked if I would help them with the storefront which was just across the street. And with the school for the people who were poor, the mentally handicapped, for some of them, and then for those who were of different nationalities. We got some students from the college who during that time were Iranians and people from Iraq and from around Trinidad. So we had some students from the college, and I taught there for eight years, junior college. I was paid and I was glad to have that money to help the homeless. They came at night and rang the doorbell, and it was a very severe winter, and they looked like snowmen when they came to the door, and it didn't take long before the Northern Railroad knew about it, so they referred some of the people, the transients. So they asked if we could put them in the hotel, the old hotels that were not being used much anymore. And the Colombian Hotel had an elevator so anyone who was crippled, was handicapped, we put them there. They charged only about. . . . The Colombian charged seven dollars; the others charged only six or five dollars a night. You were using the money that you got from teaching? Yes, I was using the money that I got. What were you teaching? I was teaching the adults from Iraq and Libya English with their dictionary and our dictionary to converse. I was also teaching the children from the rehab center, the mentally handicapped and also the Spanish adults how to read in English. And so I had that job for eight years and I was very glad to have that job to help the transients mostly; it was a very severe winter. They would come to the door and they would look like snowmen. So what did you do after the eight years? After [a few] years they moved the storefront to the junior college for about three years. It was the same school, but a different location, and they provided transportation. One of the teachers gave me a ride early and coming back, we had rotation, the rehab bus would give me a ride home. In addition to that I found time to, in two afternoons, to visit the jail. I asked the sheriff if he would allow me to go in because I was going to take books from the college. Many of the students . . . were in jail. And I took them their homework, so I asked him if it would be all right if I'd go there at least once a week regularly. So he said he was very happy because they hadn't had anyone from the Catholic church since Father Weber and Father Vifquain [SJ.]. How come the students were in jail? They broke in or something. What did you do after that? In between I did things. I also took Holy Communion to the homebound. I found out, I asked Father if I could take Communion to this couple, and he said he had a list for me. Since I couldn't drive; I walked all the time. In all kinds of weather. I didn't mind; I was glad to do it. I was well and healthy and happy. Just what I always wanted to do but never was able to do because I loved teaching. I never thought of getting out of teaching. So I walked up and down the hills, taking Holy Communion to the homebound. What about visiting other people of other faiths? You had told me before that you used to visit. I went around, Father gave me a shoebox full of a list of the parishioners, and Father said, "Do you want to go around and see people if they are still going to church?" So I went up and down the streets in the afternoon, and I found the first street, I thought I'd never get out of Portland because there were so many children who had never made their First �Holy Communion, so many children who weren't baptized, and adults who wished to get their marriage straightened out, so it took a long time get out of Portland. I don't know why but that was the street that took the most time, but I enjoyed it. It was a very wonderful winter, and I love to walk and I walked almost to the foot of Fisher's Peak sometime, and I found some people who hadn't been receiving Holy Communion or were not able to go to church, so I was able to go to them to take them Holy Communion there in their home. And later on, little by little Father had more peopleand I had four volunteers [for driving]. That made it wonderful. Father said, "Don't take Communion every week, every other week," so I was glad to have those volunteers for the places that were far away or if the weather was bad, and those people were very wonderful. Time went very fast because I was so busy that before I knew it, I was told to come to the Mount when Sister Isabella broke her hip. And there was no one else to be there in the convent except Sisters of other communities, and they would stay.. . . And S. Isabella won the Mother Seton Award [Sister De Paul added later that S. Isabella invited many Sisters for an afternoon reception, and some from Albuquerque and S. Zita Burke stayed overnight. S. Barbara Counts arrived in the morning and pitched in and bought balloons and scrubbed placemats and helped tremendously to get the place ready.] And we had always. . . . From the time the Sisters had arrived in Trinidad, I'm sure whatever they had in the line of food, we shared the food with anyone who knocked at the door. So after that we used to have what you call lunch packs, brown bags, and we'd give them a sandwich or two and fruit and a can of pop and some cookies. We always had cookies. Our cook was always making cookies. In a little brown bag, to the transients who knocked, to whoever knocked at our side door always got a bag, no matter how busy we were or how little we had, but whatever we had, all those years that was the tradition of the Charities. S. Isabella asked the Franciscans to keep the tradition of the Sisters of Charity and continue giving brown bags to the transients. This is after you leave, Sister Isabella asked them to please keep up the tradition. --if they were going to keep the tradition, and they changed all the locks, and they didn't. And they changed the name of the convent. They changed the name of the convent to Our Lady of the Angels. This happened in one year, and the people were so confused. They had no idea when they called, and they answered, "Our Lady of the Angels." Sister, how did you experience the Vatican Council? What did you think about the Community's response or your response? I think we adjusted to it beautifully. I don't think there was any question about anything that you couldn't do and there was a freedom that those who wanted to change the habit or keep the habit, and they never questioned anything. There was a freedom in the Community where everyone accepted it when they understood it, and everyone continued in our own way, maybe in a different style in different ways, but it was the same thing, evangelizing and we're still visiting the jails, I imagine, and I know the lay people in Trinidad are taking care of the jail, they're taking care of the soup kitchen, and the jail, and they're taking care of all those things that we were doing. Things done by very good people. And my nephew John, very active in the parish, and he tells me what they're doing, and it makes me feel good that this is still being continued. What about the important meetings of the Community? How did you experience them? the special Chapters, . . . or the Gathering, the Congress? You know, we had the Gathering last summer? Well, I remember there were some Gatherings I didn't come. I realized the expense, and my Sisters were not well enough, and I never knew what would happen, so I stayed home, my two sisters and my brother, so I stayed home to take care of them. So I didn't get too much; I got papers to read, and I found it difficult to understand some of the terms, and after, I looked them up in the dictionary. But when we had that Gathering, not last summer, I don't remember what summer it was, we had the people out on the lawn, that really impressed me, when they blew those [ram's] horns, and we went down to "Gather Your People." It made me feel that whether you want to or not, it gathered you together like a magnet, and I think that there was more unity after that than we ever had before. The first Gathering in the Community we had questions, but in that [one] was not questions about what we were going to change, what we were going to do, but we were all one. It was just like a magnet, and we want to continue serving God in our own way; of course if extraordinary, we had to get permission. But like going to the jail, I didn't feel like I had to get permission. The jailer said when I asked, "Oh, please," he said. "We haven't had a Catholic priest, person come into the jail since Father Vifquain and Father Weber died. We get all these ministers who confuse things and who cause trouble." What sustained you in Community over the years? What sustains you now? Well, the grace of God. I know that I've always felt I was where I should be. I got rattled sometimes if I was on a mission where the poor weren't there, like when I went to the Shrine [of the Little Flower, Detroit], but I always had a taste for the poor, and I found out it was the same and given the fact that I could give them firsthand information about �what it was like to have been out West, the sacrifices people made in order to get their religion. It was a blessing in disguise. Right now what sustains you? Well, the fact that we are united and so, working with each other and the charitableness of everyone. There are different ways. We aren't all of the same; thank God for that. We aren't made of the same mold; we're all different. That makes for variety. And our prayer lives. We have our own little. .. . We don't pray together as much; some are not well enough to be with us in prayer, but when we want a Mass that is lively, we can go to the Motherhouse. But the Mass here in the [Mother Margaret] chapel is just right. Father has it at the same time every day, so we won't get confused. He is just ideal for us. His homily is little bit maybe, but sometimes just a sentence, but never more than three minutes long. He's considering those people who have to run out [She laughs], or who are already asleep, because they do sleep sometimes, He is so gentle, he is ideal for people like us, he is an answer by God, because when they're sleeping, he taps gently them to wake them up [for Communion], . . . Not in church, I'm not asleep, but I am sleeping more than I used to. It's the medication that you take. You're talking about Father Joe Bruening. Yes, he's the perfect one for us. And then you have Father Lou Lipps [S.J.] too. Yes, he's very good too. We are very fortunate. . . . We don't have to worry about losing anything that we've acquired in the past. We have it here. It's a different shape and form maybe, like the bell ringing and have to respond to it. It's you at your own pace, but it's just ideal. It's hard to describe the pattern that they have here that everyone fits into, and that's a real gift, to be able to do that, to be able to keep the community going at their own pace, No one's going to say walk faster or. . . . You go at your own pace. If you want to die without anyone watching you--like S. Isabella, I don't know what happened to her--you can; but if you want them to help--and it's wonderful to have them, I want them, you can have them. But if you want them more or whatever you want, no one is going to question that. Another thing that people remark, that I hear so often from others, is how friendly the Sisters are. And they go in the dining room, and they hear them laughing and talking at the table, laughing. You can tell they're not. . . . It's just the reward, I guess, for what we've done or haven't done. God in His goodness has given us this place. That's a beautiful answer. Now the last question: how do you think God is calling you to be with God today? Like is it with suffering? What is God asking of you today? He's asking me to pray hard, as hard as I can, for all those who are out of the Church, that I know who are out of the Church, and not responding to God's grace. Later Sister De Paul asked that this next section about a relative be omitted.] And you, your suffering? God is asking? I suffer because I don't know everything [about relatives]. They don't tell me everything. But I mean even physically. Oh, no. You don't have much? No, I don't have pain, I can say that. I'm forgetful, I'm aware of that, I'm very forgetful, and my vision is not as good as it used to be. I still say my Office because I have a large print book, and I still say my rosary. So God isn't asking a lot of suffering from you? Mostly prayer. Right now I am suffering because I have so much junk. [She laughs.] I know what I have; I know I should move, I know it, but. . . . You don't look like you have much. It doesn't look like much to me. But look at those drawers. Just one little dresser. Well, if I can get that done, and get moved. They have told me, a person in charge of everything, not Pat Saul, a layperson. Whoever. Well, anyway, they told me they have a room for me upstairs. Anyway, there's a nice parlor outside of it for my family. You can enjoy that. While my family are here in the car, we go here and they go there. When they come here [to my room], they feel at home. So I went up there , and I looked in the room, and I opened the door and I didn't see a toilet anywhere, so I pulled a door open, and I saw the attic. Oooo. They were going to put walls �around the toilet and the sink, but it was too close to the attic. Then I looked at the width of it, and it reminded me of a coffin, and it was on the way away from everybody. I'd be miserable. I do want to be around people. I may not be able to come to the table, but I like to be around people. . . . So, Sister, what is God asking of you today? Let's go to that question. He's asking me to pray, and to pray as much as I'm able to pray, in my own words, from a book, whatever, and also to offer suffering-and I don't have much physical suffering, so I haven't suffered much, but anxiety and worrying about my family sometimes and worrying about people who are going to be suffering from the lack of heat in their homes or money that their gas is going up to four dollars a gallon. Then they won't be able to get to places that they want to get to, especially when they're sick and have to get to the doctor or something. So that's part of your suffering. I'm praying that things get better, and I do watch the news and read the papers, just enough to know what's going on. I see, but not what it should be. Do you want to wrap it up? [Sister is getting tired.] Yes. Thank you very much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sandoval, Sister De Paul, SC Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Trinidad (Colo.); Albuquerque (N.M.) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35 Minutes 24 Seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister De Paul Sandoval, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC July 26, 2007 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Catholic Church --- Education -- United States -- History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister De Paul Sandoval by Sister Victoria Marie Forde. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sandoval, Sister De Paul, SC; Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/26/2007 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource "Audio/mp3 Application/pdf" Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister De Paul Sandoval, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC July 26, 2007 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1913-2007 Education Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/6295285fcb2710d45f92cfe5bdbe3eed.JPG bb4cf132dcd42f97dbbc1d7dc10f56ef https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/cb213558b2908be6bc99d87bff96b741.mp3 b1e35a112c4d5165940bc308322ce610 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/57d56d23cccacd2da4db3c5179bbb676.pdf 629207d244a6d9de5f701060e4bbe84e PDF Text Text SISTER RUTH ANN RODY – ORAL HISTORY [Bracketed words, not names, are additions by the Sister upon review.] SVMF: Today is May 19, 2019, and we're here at the Motherhouse, Sister Ruth Ann Rody and I, Sister Victoria Marie Forde, ready to begin her oral history. So, Ruth Ann, what is anything that you want to add about your childhood before you got to the Sisters of Charity, Vincentian Sisters of Charity. SRAR: Well, I had very wonderful, nourishing parents. They always wanted the best for us, they were very loving. And my siblings--I have one sister and three brothers: Christine, who is also a Sister of Charity; my brother, Bill, was the Vice President of the Union Pacific Railroad and is now retired; my brother, Bob, was the Stage Production Manager for Cleveland Playhouse Squares Association, he is also now retired; and my brother, Rusty is the top maintenance man for a tool and dye company. SVMF: So are they all older than you are? Are you the youngest? SRAR: I'm the youngest girl; brother, Rusty is the youngest. My sister is the oldest, and then there's four years between her and my oldest brother, then two years between my oldest brother and my second brother, and two years between my brother and myself, and then five years between myself and my youngest brother, Rusty. SVMF: And you always lived in Cleveland? SRAR: Bedford, born and raised in Bedford, moved from one end of Bedford to the other. SVMF: So tell me about your life before you entered the Sisters. �SRAR: Well, I entered twice. SVMF: Now that's an interesting point. SRAR: I entered right after eighth grade. I can remember as a kid always wanting to be a mother and have twelve kids. And then during grade school I used to help Sister Irene Mraz [Mary Michalene] in the Sacristy and stuff, and we would talk. Sister Maris Stella [Pramik] was another Sister that I used to hang out with. My brothers and I would walk to school, and we'd get there in time to go to Mass, and then after Mass there was time, so we would help the Sisters do different things afterwards until school started. SVMF: So did she talk to you about being a Sister, or no? SRAR: When I was in eighth grade on the weekends I would be at the Rectory and record the envelopes for them and answer the phone.. SVMF: And Christine's already in the convent? SRAR: Yes, she entered when I was eight years old. I entered the first time in 1964 with Dorothy Blatnica. We both entered the same day, and I was four years as an Aspirant. Within that time Lumen Cordium was like the second year that the school was open, but the school wasn't built yet, so they were building the school, and March of my freshman year was when the school was done, and we moved up to the school. SVMF: So then if you were there four years, you graduated then? SRAR: I graduated from Lumen Cordium, yes. [1968] SVMF: As an Aspirant? �SRAR: Yes, for all four years I was an Aspirant. SVMF: You're in class with all the kids? SRAR: Yes, we were treated just like the other girls. It's just that when they would go home, we would go back to the convent. SVMF: Did you dress differently? SRAR: Yes, we did until our senior year, I think. It was like a dress, and we wore black stockings and black shoes, the granny-type shoes. And we had to wear colors. To go to school we had a dark navy blue. We had a tan-colored one that we would clean in, and then light gray color. We had like little tammys that we wore for church. And of course the tammy was always in the opposite end of the building, so you had to run and get your tammy and then run back to church to chapel. SVMF: Were there a lot of you in your class? SRAR: There were 32 in the whole Novitiate, but there were different classes. SVMF: Really, from the eighth grade on? SRAR: Yes, there were six canonical novices or novices. Then there were four seniors. Then there were four juniors. This is my freshman year, there were six of us, my freshman year, and four sophomores. SVMF: So you all lived together became friends and all that? �SRAR: We had dormitories that we lived in. SVMF: Once they were novices, then they moved out? SRAR: It was the old mansion before they tore the mansion down and added the new section. It was a big dormitory that we lived in. and we had a big, large room is what it was. SVMF: What about summertime? SRAR: We went home for the summers. SVMF: Oh, did you? But you came back every time. SRAR: Right. We came back at the end of August or in the middle of August. SVMF: When you went home, then you could just dress normal? SRAR: Yes. SVMF: How interesting. Okay, so then what happened after you graduated? SRAR: After I graduated, the Community sent the rest of us home. Halfway through my senior year I should have become a Postulant and then that summer I should have become a Novice, but instead Mother Joseph [Slavik] came into the study hall and told us that we were all going to be dismissed and not to come back in September. They were disbanding the Novitiate at that point. SVMF: Did she give you any reasons? �SRAR: No, no reason was given. So then Sister Mary Phillip [Maceyko] started the external Associate program to try to keep those vocations alive. We would meet once a month for a weekend, and we would have a mini-retreat kind of thing, and she would have different speakers come in, and we would do different stuff. Then I don't k now what happened, but then she disbanded that also. So, we were supposed to leave for a year and then come back to what was originally started, but I, at that point I was pretty angry with God. I figured if God didn't want me I didn't want any part of God. SVMF: That sounds logical. That's a pretty drastic thing. SRAR: Within that time like I never gave up on prayer, I never gave up because my heart of hearts was with Jesus, was with Christ. And I couldn't see not receiving Eucharist. So that's one of the things that kept me going, and my sister was still in the convent. We would talk and stuff when I would go and see her. When I graduated from high school I went to Marymount School of Practical Nursing and was in practical nursing school when my mom was sick, and basically I was taking care of her and not studying, and so I basically flunked out of nursing school. But I started working at Brentwood Hospital in Warrensville Heights, Ohio. It's up by the Thistledown Race Track. It’s a suburb of Cleveland. So I started working there. I was an aide, and the nurses kept encouraging me to go back to school. So I started at Cuyahoga Community College the Western campus and got into the Nursing program and there became a nurse in 1974. I met my friend, Lenny Piechowsky, and we were dating for a while, and then he said, "You know I have something to tell you." And I thought, "Oh, Gees, here we go." And he said, "I really want to become a priest." So he entered the Franciscans, the Sacred Heart Province, went off to school in Quincy Illinois. And so the one summer he didn't have a way to get back. They were free to come home during the summer and basically get jobs and work to pay for their tuition �and stuff. And so I went out to Quincy to pick him up and met Michael Casuto, and with hanging out with them I met the Wheaton Franciscans. So I was looking at the Wheaton Franciscans, and I went and spent a weekend with them, which was a real trip. We [my friend Sue DeSanTIS left after work, so Wheaton is a suburb of Chicago. And so we got through and the directions they forgot to put down a route to take, so we ended up in Wisconsin and called them and said, "I think we must have turned somewhere." So then they told us how to go, and we got in about 1:00 instead of 10:00. But it was a really good weekend and I thought, Okay. SVMF: So who is "we?" SRAR: My roommate[Sue DeSantis] and I. SVMF: She was interested too? SRAR: No, we were good friends from work. SVMF: She went with you. SRAR: Yes, so we went together just so I would have someone to go with. After the visit I thought that's it, you know. They worked with the poor, and they were all thing--s knowing Vincent and Louise their charism was the closest thing without going back to the Vincentians because they didn't want me, so why should I want them now? At this point Chris was in El Salvador so it had to be the late 70s. SVMF: We can check. SRAR: I entered in '78, so it was like between '74 and '78. SVMF: You mean after you went to visit the Wheaton Franciscans and she's in El Salvador, so how did you get back to the Vincentians? �SRAR: She came home for a summer visit, and I took Christine, Marjorie Grudowski and Petronella [Huzichka], the three of them out for lunch. Well, they were talking about the Community, and how it was changing, and how they were getting more involved with social issues, you know. And after that luncheon I thought, you know (had to be' 78 because end of '77 –'78). So for all the reasons I was going to move to Chicago were right here, you know. And so Marjorie at that point was the Directress of Novices, Formation Director, I should say. And so I thought, "Well," so I went out and called Marjorie and started talking to her, and we had lunch, you know, and I started looking at them, and they asked their questions, and finally decided to enter. So my decision for that was like February 16 I believe because I was at Mass, and I stayed after Mass just to pray because I didn't want to fight the people in the parking lot. And Father Benji, I don't remember his last name, and said to me, "Oh, you must be holy." I said, "Oh, I don't think so. Just listen to one of my confessions, and you'll know I'm not holy." And he said, "Okay, see me." So I made an arrangement to go see him. So he was asking me, "Why are you holding back and not going back into religious life?" And I had no reason even though I was seeing Randy at that point, and the relationship should have gone to marriage now, and my question was instead of "Yes, when are we going to get married?" and all that I said, "Oh, I've got to think about this." And I thought that's not really the question that should have happened, that was the question I came up with. So once I had that all over with, Father Benji just said, "I don't understand why you just don't go pursue religious life." And so I was on 480, and there's a section that you're down in like a valley, but it's not just in the way that they constructed it, and you're coming up, and it's like you're taking off in a plane, and I said, "So why aren't you pursuing it?" And I can remember that distinctly, and I know it was February 16, 1978. And then March 29 of 1978 I entered the Vincentian Sisters in Bedford along with Terry Hines. SVMF: So you answered your question. �SRAR: Yes, I answered the question and moved on from there. SVCMF: And said good bye to Randy. SRAR: Yes, and my dad was I n the hospital when I ran into him. His mom was in the hospital also. I ran into him in the hallway, and he said, "Didn't know what I had until you were gone." SVMF: That was a nice complement. SRAR: But then I thought, I'm sort of glad he sees that. He stopped where he was, and it's like he really needs to get a life. It was the right thing to do. SVMF: So now you've entered. Did you have to do anything over again, or did they count anything you had done? SRAR: No, there was ten years between. SVMF: You had to start from scratch? SRAR: Yes. Well, and it was a different time period. Marjorie was the Directress and then. . . . SVMF: Sister Marjorie? SRAR: Grudowski. She's the one that started Pineville. So I went through the Formation process. �SVMF: Were there very many of you together at this time? SRAR: It was just Terry and myself, and Anita Maroun was received into the Community March 15, 1978. Terry and I entered ,Teresa and I entered March 29, 1978. So there were the three of us in Formation. We did an InterCommunity Formation program. That's when we started that. SVMF: So you were with other communities. There were men and women? SRAR: Yes. It was very good, we learned a lot. Terry and I were received into the Community, and were Novices in September. SVMF: So are you still nurses? SRAR: I was a nurse. SVMF: They still let you continue nursing? SRAR: Until my Canonical year. Then I had to quit for my Canonical year. SVMF: There weren't that many nurses in the Community? SRAR: No, there were six. SVMF: That's a good number. SRAR: Margaret Eileen [Golden] was a nurse and was working at Marymount Hospital. I don't know why they asked me, but I became the Community �infirmarian. I know because up to that point I think Sister Mary Alberta [Vitikatch]. When she was older they asked me to take over. SVMF: Did you have many in the infirmary? SRAR: No, there wasn't. I was basically taking care of wellness checks and taking their blood pressure and that. We never really had anybody bedridden until right before they died. So it was fairly easy because I was working 3-11 at the hospital, and during the day I would take care of the Sisters. There were a couple that I helped assist with their baths. SVMF: You were working at the hospital also? SRAR: Yes. SVMF: As well as, the Community infirmarian. So what hospital are you at? SRAR: Brentwood Hospital where I was before. They kept my seniority because I was only gone for 11 months. But I was working 3-11 and taking care of the Sisters in the morning. Days like 7-3 I'd work as the infirmarian and then 3-11 at the hospital. SVMF: Oh, boy, that's a long day. SRAR: Yes. SVMF: You're still young. �SRAR: Yes, but it was great. It kept me on my toes. During the day it was basically taking vital signs, going and talking to them to see what's going on, and if they were feeling okay. SVMF: Half social work. SRAR: Yes. SVMF: So what happened then when you merged? Were you still doing that until we merged? SRAR: No, because I went to Pineville in 1995. SVMF: So how did that happen? SRAR: How did we get to Pineville? SVMF: How did you get there? SRAR: It was already established by Marjorie. I can't remember what year she went. SVMF: We can always fill in the year. SRAR: Well, Marjorie went down in the 80's. And then Elizabeth [Kochik] went down. Marjorie went down, and as she had emergency surgery and was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She came back, and I took care of her. She was living at, at this point I was living at Vincent's House, and Marjorie was living with Sister Barbara Ann [Patruchak] at Marillac House. And it got to the point where Barbara Ann needed somebody to watch her or take care of her during the day. �And so I would go over and take care of her during the day. Barbara Ann would come home from school, and I would go to work so that Marjorie wasn't by herself. Well, Barbara Ann and I took care of her until Marjorie died. So at that point Elizabeth was down in Pineville and Sister [Mary] Imelda Sekerak just finished her term as the Community Sister in charge of the Sisters at the Motherhouse. So she asked to go down to Pineville and help. SVMF: What's in Pineville? SRAR: That's what I was trying to say before. In the Sisters Today magazine there was an ad for anybody that would want to teach full time down in Pineville, Kentucky, teach the literacy program. It had to be right after '77 that's when they had the big flood, and the different ministers came together to have the Christian ministerial meeting. And so they put in advertisement in the magazine for Sisters to come down and work in the area. Well, Mary Ann Flannery was the superior at the time, and she found the article, and so she was looking for summer volunteer places for our Sisters. And so she responded to it. But it was, "Let's see, which ones went down for the summer." But they wanted somebody full time, all year. So Marjorie finished her stint as the Formation Director, so she applied for it, and she went down. So she was the first one in Pineville and started the literacy program for Bell County. And then Elizabeth Kochik came back from Salvador and was looking for a ministry so she went down and lived with Marjorie at that point. And then Marjorie came back and died from cancer, and Elizabeth was there. Imelda went down, so I can't remember how old she was when she went down, but she learned how to drive so she could go down. SVMF: That's right, in her 50's. SRAR: Yes, so then Imelda was with Elizabeth. Well then, shortly, had to be '95, Elizabeth had a recurrence of cancer, and she died. So then Imelda was going to �come back because nobody was there with her' and when I was a kid I read Christy, the book about a young woman, who was a teacher and went and worked in the mountains' and I fell in love with the mountains during reading that book' and I had always wanted to go. And so I asked if I could go, and so I moved. SVMF: But when you went down it wasn't just literacy was it? SRAR: No, I went down, and I was working in a nursing home. My first job down there was night shift in a nursing home. SVMF: Is Imelda with you then? SRAR: Yes, I was living with Imelda in the parish house right next to the church. I was working in a nursing home, and then I got a position in home health nursing in Bell county. So that's where I started working, and I love home health. It was really what I wanted with that whole dream of working in the mountains. SVMF: And with the poor. SRAR: Yes, it was just really what I wanted to do. So I was there for 15 years. SVMF: Were you really? SRAR: Yes. SVMF: Well, Imelda came back. SRAR: Yes, Imelda was getting older and losing strength, and she was developing macular degeneration, and she wanted to be living at the Motherhouse before she �went totally blind, so she could get around. So that's why she moved up, and Sister Barbara Philippart came down. SVMF: Yes, she was looking for a place. SRAR: Yes, she was looking, and we an influx of Hispanics in the area from the migrant workers, the migrant farmers. And they started a restaurant, and it grew into three different restaurants, and there was a large Hispanic Community that weren't being taken care of, and they were all going to the Episcopalians because the pastor there knew Spanish. And so I kept putting out for anybody who knew Spanish to come down, and so Barbara came down and did a lot for the Church in Pineville. When I first went down we were less than 1% Catholic in the area and by the time I left we were at 1%. SVMF: That's good. SRAR: Yes, and they did a lot of work, also. Anyway I came back. SVMF: I thought Sister Mary Barbara said they wanted your house where you were living. SRAR: When we were living in the house right next to the church. They moved that house to one of the hollers because they wanted a social building. So they built us a social hall for the church right next to it, so we were renting the First Christian Church's pastor's home. SVMF: The rectory? SRAR: Yes, they don't call it a rectory, their parish house. And so their pastor died, and they were getting a new pastor, and they needed a place for them to live. So they asked us to move because they needed it for their house. So we looked �around, and we couldn't find a place to live in Pineville. There were two apartments that we looked at that were like we were living in a basement. With our arthritis it just wouldn't work out. It was always damp and wet and cold. But we looked at other places, but it was time to go. So then we moved back to Cincinnati. SVMF: You both came to the Motherhouse then? SRAR: No, I was supposed to live with Nancy Crofton on Cleves Warsaw, and her father died the day she moved into that apartment, and so she had a difficult time living in that place because it was always a reminder that her dad died that day that she moved. We had the apartments on Schwartze, so we moved into the apartments on Schwartze, and I stayed there until. . . . SVMF: And you each had your own apartment? SRAR: Yes, and we had two Franciscans that lived there. SVMF: What were you doing for your ministry? SRAR: At that time I was looking for a job, and I had hurt my back in Pineville, so I knew I couldn't do traditional nursing working in the hospital, that this would not work, so I went back to school and became a legal nurse consultant. I tried to look for a job with a lawyer and couldn't find one. I offered services to Legal Aid, but nothing happened there, so in the meantime the Health Resource Center put out a letter that they needed somebody to be their office manager, but it was all volunteer because they didn't have money for the position. So because of our grants I was able to work there and get money for my position with a Community grant. The Health Resource Center is an out-patient psychiatric clinic for the homeless and indigent. SVMF: That's where you are now. �SRAR: That's where I am presently. And I've been there five, six years. I love it. It's working with the homeless and trying to help them. SVMF: And Mary Barbara helps you with the translation sometimes? SRAR: Yes. SVMF: And when did you move to the Motherhouse? SRAR: Well, that's another story. It was three or four years ago. It's when Trish came back from California, Trish Cruise, and started working with Healthy Moms and Babes. Nancy moved out, and that apartment was empty for over a year, and then the two Franciscan sisters retired and moved back to their Motherhouse, so I was the only one living there. So I went to the administration and asked that since the three apartments were empty, could we not open it up for emergency shelter for battered women, and I would be the care taker. And so they talked about it, and at that point Trish was looking for a place for her homeless mothers. And so the Community set everything up and gave it to the Healthy Moms and Babes, and I was fine with Trish. And I was talking with Trish and offered to be the person there, and she said I couldn't do that because it changes the status of being a shelter to being a medical place because I'm a nurse, and that it would change the insurance. So I had to find a place to live. At that point I contacted Cookie [Crowley], and they only had the room that I'm presently living in. So that's when I moved to the Motherhouse. SVMF: Okay, one thing I was thinking is that you went to England sometimes. SRAR: Father Dane was the pastor at St. Jullian's and St. Anthony's, and he retired and moved back to England and took care of his mom. And Judith Ann [Ansberry], Imelda and I and a friend from Pineville went to England, stayed with him, and he gave us the English tour of England. It was really nice. I also was one of the lucky �ones, this is while we were still Vincentians, who won the Federation retreat in France where St. Vincent de Paul and Louise de Marillac ministered. We started out in Pouy, where he was born, and then did that whole retreat, and we ended up in Paris at the Motherhouse at the Rue de Bac. SVMF: Who directed that retreat? SRAR: Sister Louise, she was a Daughter of Charity. It was really wonderful, just amazing. SVMF: I know Judy had one, and I'm still sorry to this day that I didn't sign up for that one. SRAR: It was just awesome to walk where Vincent and Louise walked, it was just amazing. And then Rue de Bac seeing their bodies and their chapels. SVMF: If you think of anything else, we can always add it. I usually ask people if they'd like to say anything about….What do you think about the Community right now, future or the Church? SRAR: I think it's a time of wonder. It's exciting in the sense that we're living through historical pieces of where to go and how to get there. SVMF: Are you talking about both the Community and the Church? SRAR: Just the different the changes from the first time I entered until now, so different. Somewhere more positive, it's a Church of hope. I see it as being more responsive to the People of God. Not so black and white, so condemning, it's more like when Jesus started the Church, humbly, and with love. It's an exciting time. �SVMF: I'm glad you see it that way. And then we have this big Federation meeting coming in Chicago, where all the Sisters from all different Charity communities are going to meet. That's exciting. That's coming up. SRAR: Being part of the Federation during Formation is really,-- that's when I was in Formation-- that's when they began it, and it all began. We got involved with it, I should say. And it's just a real exciting time. Anita and I kept saying while we were in Formation that people are talking about that there aren't any leaders in the Community, and people were starting to recycle their leadership. And I said, "You're not teaching the young people to be leaders." I said, "How do you expect them to be leaders if you don't teach them." So I was so happy when they had the Federation Leadership involvement for young Sisters, 65 and under or 60 and under. SVMF: And then that other meeting where we had the young people. SRAR: Well, I guess it's my own little idiosyncrasy. I don't like the term "younger Sister and older Sister". . . . SVMF: It's like a distinction. SRAR: It's new Formation because even the younger Sisters are 50. So it's like at 69, I'm still a younger Sister. I could be a great-grandmother by now. SVMF: That's so interesting that you think it's exciting. I think that's really hopeful and optimistic. I do a lot of oral histories, and I didn't hear too many people say, "It's exciting at this time." SRAR: Oh yes, I mean it's wide open to adventure. The Gospel is alive and living, and we have the opportunity to make it more apparent to people. �SVMF: And then in your ministry you're seeing that. SRAR: Yes, I am. SVMF: It's very hopeful to hear what your ministry is too. SRAR: Well, it also gives Sisters who are Motherhouse-bound opportunity because they give me money towards helping the poor, and so I just now started buying gift cards from Kroger so that they have food because they always run out of food at the end of the month because there's more month than money. That way they can pick out what they want. We also have started a little pantry for our clients, and we have like spaghetti sauce and spaghetti, and then I get little cans of chicken in a can or tuna, some kind of protein so that they have protein because otherwise they are eating carbohydrates. They need to eat protein, and then canned fruit and vegetables, so that they have sort of a balanced meal even though it's all processed food. But you can't keep a fresh ham in the pantry without it smelling! SVMF: Oh, and the other thing we should mention in your oral history especially is your baking and your cooking like for the Mardi Gras. It seems that the group is dependent on you to make those special cookies that take two days to make for example and some other good meals that you and Mary Alice [Stein] and Judith [Ann Asberry] have made for our Area. SRAR: If I had more stamina, I would probably bake and cook more often. SVMF: But you're doing it, and it creates community. I think that's so important here, or else we'd all just be in our rooms without community. SRAR: Well, I entered Community to be community. �SVMF: Yes, I think we all did. SRAR: I have a difficult time with people who don't like, don't love Community. It's like, "Why did you enter? Or" why are you still here?" SVMF: So that's why it's so important to have community, and you've helped create a lot of it. Thank you. SRAR: I hope so. SVMF: Well, if there's anything else you want to add, you can always add it. We can either tape it or we can write it, or whatever you want if you think of something, or if something comes to mind. But for now I thank you very, very much. It was very interesting, an unusual journey that you have had, especially entering twice. SRAR: We didn't talk about the merger. SVMF: Oh, that's right. SRAR: That was the whole time from entrance until the time we merged there was, "What are we going to do? How are we going to do it?" For me it was, I guess the whole thing was exciting because it was like the charism and our mission was so important that we didn't want it to die. So how were we going to keep it alive? That's when we went through that whole process. We did a Community retreat, and it was on the lake at the Cleveland retreat house right on Lake Erie. And the whole week the lake was really rough, and in fact there were sometimes three- to five-foot waves. I mean it was really rough, and then the day that we made our decision and unanimously voted to merge with the Sisters of �Charity, it was like glass. It was so calm. It was like if you didn't believe in the Spirit, all you had to do was watch the lake. It was just marvelous. You knew it was of God. For me and a few others, we've talked about it, and it's been the best thing that we could have done. SVMF: And at our end, you know, there wasn't any suggestion of anything but, "Of course." We met you, we had to learn about you for a couple of years I think. And then vote: "Of course." SRAR: And then the blessing of our memories was a beautiful ceremony. And then we were without vows for an hour! SVMF: You could have left. SRAR: We could have gone off to town and not had to worry about any stuff. And then the ceremony coming down was the way we used to do the ceremonies for Reception and Profession. We had the coming down to the Shrine, and down the Shrine steps to proclaim. SVMF: I was there for that, and that was very powerful. SRAR: It was, yes, yes. And four of the Sisters, they moved to the Motherhouse at that point. They were free of any of the history was with them. They began a new life and really became new people. So it was a wonderful experience. SVMF: For us too. We appreciate it; it was a gift for us. Well, thank you again. That was very powerful, a wonderful oral history. And if you think of anything else, just let me know, and we'll add it. I think you've really given us a lot of information, a lot of what you feel which is interesting. It's not just facts. Thank you very much. �SRAR: You're welcome. SVMF: Is there anything you would like to add before we finish? SRAR: I truly believe in Divine Providence because God always gets me where I am supposed to be when I'm supposed to be there. That's how I've felt on all the jobs I've been and met the people I'm supposed to meet, and helped them along the way. And they helped me along the way. SVMF: Do you want to add that Myers Briggs thing on the flexibility? SRAR: You were talking about that you have to wait to get this oral history transcribed. On the Myers Briggs I'm an ENFP, so I'm high in not having to have things finished. That's why I can make a quilt that takes 12 years! I took a flexibility test on rigid or flexible, and I'm off the grid on flexibility, and the psychiatrist that was administering the test said that he's never met anybody so flexible on the test, that I was off the grid. SVMF: Ah, that's great. That's a blessing for all of us. Well, again, if you think of anything else, we just push the button. �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rody, Sister Ruth Ann, SC Location The location of the interview Cincinnati (Ohio); Cleveland (Ohio) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 56 Minutes 41 Seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sister Ruth Ann Rody, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC May 19, 2019 Subject The topic of the resource Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; Monasticism and religious orders for women -- Catholic Church -- History; Nursing--United States--History Description An account of the resource An interview with Sister Ruth Ann Rody by Sister Victoria Marie Forde. Sister Ruth Ann discusses her attempt to enter religious life with the VIncentian Sisters of Charity of Bedford, Ohio during the renewal period following Vatican II as well as her work in nursing, primarily in home health care. The Vincentian Sisters of Charity of Bedford, Ohio were a Catholic congregation of Women Religious. Founded on September 4, 1928, when five Sisters arrived from Pittsburgh in response to an invitation from Cleveland’s Archbishop Joseph Schrembs, the Sisters who arrived were originally members of the Vincentian Sisters of Charity of Pittsburgh (founded in 1902). They received the full support of the community to embark on this new spiritual journey in Bedford. The Community did not officially become an autonomous congregation until February 19, 1939. On that day, 44 Sisters took vows as Vincentian Sisters of Charity of Bedford, Ohio. The Archbishop requested that this diocesan community focus on ministering to Cleveland’s Slovak community. This was eventually achieved through ministerial works in a variety of parishes in the Cleveland and Youngstown dioceses, primarily in the fields of elementary education, health care, and domestic service. At its height, the community had 150 members in 1965 and, at that time, were involved in over 20 schools, hospitals, and community organizations. In 2004, the community identified a shared Charism (vision of mission), Vincentian spirituality, and ministry focus with the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati; on June 27th of that year, they merged officially and the remaining Vincentian Sisters, including Sister Ruth Ann, became Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati. This recording is a part of the oral history series housed at the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rody, Sister Ruth Ann, SC; Forde, Sister Victoria Marie, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archives Oral History Series Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5/19/2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Laverty, Jackene (Transcriber) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Online access is provided for research purposes only. For rights, reproduction, and use requests or more information, please contact the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Archivist. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio/mp3 Application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sister Ruth Ann Rody, SC Interviewed by Sister Victoria Marie Forde, SC May 19, 2019 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1950-2019 Healthcare Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati Vincentian Sisters of Charity of Bedford Ohio