1 10 8 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/b88a36c5eb0616a19e39126f2a053a8a.jpg 8f5602e440d44dbd6a4d9f64230002ee https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/0bc38dd63fccc16c798a1b4e2f7c2eef.mp3 bdb2a51baeafe7aaeb2eff280aa49639 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/4d22f663d300ad15dea8d39993d301cd.pdf a9f454f11ebacdfa15fba1a6a55cbb63 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Linda Giuli, SC Wednesday January 8, 2018 10:12AM • 30:14 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is September 10th, 2018. The interviewee is Sister. Linda Giuli. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. I am interviewing Sr. Linda in Boyle Hall in the archives Reading Room; and it's about 1:00pm. Sr. Linda, can you state your full name and your religious name? Sr. Linda Giuli 00:30 My full name is Sr. Linda Giuli. I was baptized Madeline Linda because Linda is not a saint, and the priest who baptized me suggested to my mother that Madeline was a good name. So it's Madeline Linda. My religious name was Sr. Mary Therese. Angelica Bullock 00:58 And how old are you currently? Sr. Linda Giuli 01:01 I am 76 years old. Angelica Bullock 01:03 And when did you enter the Sisters of Charity? Sr. Linda Giuli 01:07 September 8th, 1961, at age 18. Angelica Bullock 01:14 Let's talk about your family life. Where were you born? Sr. Linda Giuli 01:20 I was born in Westchester Square Hospital in the Bronx. I grew up in the Bronx. I even remember my address was 3029 Barnes Avenue. I was there till I was about nine years old. Angelica Bullock 01:38 And where did you grow up after the age of nine? Sr. Linda Giuli 01:43 My mother and I moved to... upper in the Bronx. We went from Barnes Avenue up to Wakefield. So I grew up in the north Bronx in Wakefield, went to school, St. Francis of Rome was our parish and went to grammar school there and then to St. Barnabas High School. -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 02:11 And can you tell me a little bit about your parents and your siblings, if you had any? I have no siblings. I was perfect my mother said, so she didn't need to have any more children. The one that she had was perfect. My mother had a very hard pregnancy with me. She told me that story. And because of that, my father was called to the army and they gave him a deferment. So after I was born in June, he didn't have to go to the army till October. And because of that, it was World War II, my father did not get sent overseas; he was lucky. He spent his army years in California. And my father happened to have very wonderfully talented hands. He could do anything. And he was assigned to make prosthetic limbs for the soldiers. And when he came home, I was three years old. And what did your father do after? Sr. Linda Giuli 03:34 After, my father had a hard time finding work. He had several jobs he worked as a maintenance man. He worked for a man in Mamaroneck who had an estate. That's the man who gave him the piano that came in through our living room window and two years later went out our living room window. My father played the violin and the accordion, the sisters taught him to do that. My father grew up in Colorado, so I'm not sure what sisters taught him, but he was taught music by the sisters. My father eventually got a job with New York City Housing and he became an architect and a builder for New York City Housing. In fact, he designed and built the building that Sr. Carol DeAngelo grew up in, Evenwald Housing, was the name of the group of buildings, Evenwald in the north Bronx. Angelica Bullock 05:04 And what about your mother? What did she do? Sr. Linda Giuli 05:09 Well, my mother was a housewife, a homemaker until I was about 10. And then she had various jobs and then eventually became the Assistant Manager of John Wanamaker's in Cross County in Yonkers. John Wanamaker was a very famous department store. Angelica Bullock 05:37 And what inspired her to start working when you were 10? Because she didn't want to leave me alone in the house, until I guess she thought I was more responsible. You know, my mother had a history of fashion when she was younger. She worked as a draper and for a designer house for clothes, women's clothes. And so she always had her hand somehow in fashion in the kind of work that she had. Did you have any pets growing up? Sr. Linda Giuli 06:17 I had a dog. I loved my dog; my dog loved me. He ate all the food that I didn't want. Angelica Bullock 06:28 What was your dog's name? Skupper. S-k-u-p-p-e-r. Skupper had that name because they didn't call them Skipper. My Uncle John was in the Navy and he found this little pup. And he smuggled this little doggie onto the ship. And the guys took care of him, and he put him in his duffel bag. And when he brought him home, my Aunt Eleanor did not want the dog. So my father said, "Oh, we'll take him." So he became our dog. Around what age did you receive the dog? -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Linda Giuli 07:11 Well, I guess around 5 or so. I'm not exactly sure but I just remember having the dog in my house. I might have even been younger than that, because I remember he used to come, my mother used to insist that I have a nap and I didn't like to nap. She'd put me in my in my crib, I can remember that. And he would come and put his little snout in between the, what do they call the parts of the crib that are ... Angelica Bullock 07:52 ...the opening section? Yeah, he used to put his snout in there and I used to play with him and he used to play back, Then my mother would come in and she tell him "Out you, get out!" And he'd get out. And then I could go to sleep. I wouldn't sleep with him in there. And how long did you have Skupper for? Until I moved, till I was 9. Do you remember anything in particular, anything special about your childhood? Sr. Linda Giuli 08:27 Well, I went to public school. Immaculate Conception, Gun Hill Road was my Parish, but the school wasn't built yet. They were still building it and collecting money from people for it. So I went to public school for kindergarten and I was left back in kindergarten, because they told my mother I was slow. So I was in kindergarten for two years. I remember my first teacher was Mrs. Davis. And then the second one was Mrs. Roses and her son, William Roses sat at my table and I liked him. I liked William. We were buddies. Angelica Bullock 09:13 Can you explain what that means that you were left back in kindergarten? Sr. Linda Giuli 09:20 I guess they meant retarded or something. But it took a long time for me to learn how to read. I finally went to Immaculate Conception School when it opened, and I think that was second grade. But I couldn't receive my First Holy Communion because I couldn't memorize the Catechism and I couldn't read. So I received my first communion in the third grade. I was the tallest kid in on the line. I was last online because I was the tallest and my mother made my dress because they didn't have First Communion dresses in my size. I had that dress, I loved that dress; I thought it was beautiful. And what she did too was she made different color slips. So through the white eyelit the blue or the pink that she made, yellow. And then I had matching socks. I remember that as a kid. Angelica Bullock 10:35 What influenced you to join the Sisters of Charity. Why did you decide to join? Sr. Linda Giuli 10:42 I guess I decided to join because I felt the call. And I know it's hard to believe but I was a pretty serious kid and I thought about it a lot. And I got to know my sponsor at St. Barnabas and I talked to her a little bit, talked to her a lot, actually. And it was hard in a way because my mother was alone. If I would go to the convent, my mother would be alone. But I still thought it was the right thing to do. -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 11:34 When you joined, what did your family say? Sr. Linda Giuli 11:37 Oh, I couldn't repeat it. This microphone would explode. They were I think, at the beginning, they were pretty shocked. Angelica Bullock 11:54 Why? Sr. Linda Giuli 11:56 My family were not, were good people. My uncles, my aunts, they were very good people but they were not, I'm going to use the word religious, they were not church-going people for the most part. But they were good people and they were very surprised; they were shocked. In fact, one of my uncles, my Uncle Joe, who I really loved a lot, he came in, he grabbed me one time we were together at his house. And and he said, "Are you sure you know what you're doing?" Angelica Bullock 12:43 What did you say? Sr. Linda Giuli 12:44 I told them that yeah, I thought I knew what I was doing. I had boyfriends. I lived a very normal life. I went out a lot. I worked. I was in sports. I had friends. Angelica Bullock 13:05 What did your friends think? My friends were mostly in school with me so they knew me pretty well. My friends were alright with it. My mother said to me, "If you're not happy, I want you to come home." So once that she got used to the idea and she would ask me when we had visiting days, "Are you happy?" Do you remember entering the first day? Sr. Linda Giuli 13:44 Oh, yeah, it was a beautiful day. It was sunny and warm and my Aunt Evelyn drove us up to the Mount. And she'd let me drive and I went the wrong way on a one way street. Nothing bad happened. Nothing bad happened. I guess it was nerves. But we got there okay. And it was just a beautiful sunny day. It was a Friday, because I remember what we were served for supper. It was tuna salad and sliced tomatoes and bread and I guess they were supposed to be either hard boiled or soft boiled eggs and it wasn't. When we cracked the eggs, the eggs were only half-cooked. They were slimey. And the novice at our table said, "You don't have to eat it," and I said, "Good, 'cause I'm not!'" Angelica Bullock 14:57 Do you remember what you packed to enter? -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Linda Giuli 15:02 When we got a letter of acceptance either enclosed in that letter or separate, we got a list of things that we were supposed to send in a trunk. And my sponsor and I went shopping and we got all the stuff. Certain underwears and certain soaps and certain deodorants and shoes and stockings and all that kind of stuff. Angelica Bullock 15:34 Did any of it seem weird or unknown to you or did you already know people who had joined the Sisters? Yeah, but I didn't realize what it was; I didn't get into what you brought with you. Everything was either black or white. How did you feel when you were entering? Did you feel excited or nervous? Sr. Linda Giuli 16:01 Oh, I wasn't nervous. No, I wasn't nervous and I wasn't ever homesick. I wasn't ever homesick, not the way some other people were. I didn't spend a lot of time crying or upset or no, I was okay. Kind of took things as they came. And of course, I was perfect. So in many ways, I followed the rules for the most part and when I didn't, I was lucky enough not to get caught. Angelica Bullock 16:46 What kind of rules did you have your first year? Silence-keeping, not talking and of course, I was a girl so I like to talk. You had to get used to not talking in certain times and places. It wasn't so hard it you know, you got used to it after a while. Not having any choice of food, that was hard. Not terrible but a little hard. You ate what was served. You couldn't say, "I don't like this or I don't want this. I'd like something else." That didn't happen. Getting up at 5:00, after 5:00 in the morning was the hardest; probably the hardest thing to get used to. There was what they call the rising bell. It was a loud, very loud bell, that knocked you on your feet. It was so horrible. And I just wasn't used to getting up at 5:00 o'clock. I'm still not used to getting up at 5:00 o'clock. Do you know why you had to get up so early? Sr. Linda Giuli 18:21 Yeah, because we went to the chapel to pray. And then we went to mass and then we had breakfast. And then we had prayers, then we had readings and class, that was forever. The day was very filled with activities and you had house duties, you know, different variety of things that you did or were assigned to actually. Angelica Bullock 18:53 I want to talk a little bit about you and your college years. We had school, part of what we did as postulants and novices was we had class and even when we became junior professed and moved to LeGras, we had class at the college. And when I went out on mission we had to come back on Saturdays for class. Education-wise we were all offered and given the best of education, I think opportunities, etc. Did you take classes only with Sisters? No, after I graduated from the college here, when I was in class here, some of the girls that I was in high school with were in my class. Then when I graduated from here, I was told to go on for a master's and I went to Hunter College in the city and finished two masters degrees there. But I always wanted to be a nurse. I couldn't even imagine my whole life in school. I didn't particularly care for school. And I didn't particularly like children. So both things made it a little difficult. But if I was to teach, I was to teach, it was an obedience. I wasn't going to -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �leave because of it. It was something that I was going to do in terms of an assigned ministry. But when I got a chance to make a choice I did. Sr. Linda Giuli 20:18 And you said you received two Master's degrees? Angelica Bullock 20:51 One was in elementary education and the other one was in... I'm trying to think of what that degree was; I can't remember. And how long did it take you to complete both degrees? Sr. Linda Giuli 21:06 Oh, it went quickly because I went twice a week. I was teaching in Rego Park in Queens and I'd take the Q44 bus into 59th Street and First Avenue, and I'd walk up to Hunter. I did that twice a week and on Saturday, sometimes on Saturday. So I got finished pretty fast. And it wasn't until 1977, '76 actually, when I pursued the nursing with the president who was in office at that time. Angelica Bullock 21:56 So how did you start your second career in nursing. You mentioned the president. Did she give you the okay? Sr. Linda Giuli 22:06 Yes. Yeah, I went to talk to Margaret Dowling, I went to talk to Sr. Margaret. I told her; it was difficult because Sr. Margaret had been superintendent of schools. So to tell the superintendent of schools that you hated to be in school was a little bit difficult but, she really was very good to me and she understood. But she asked me to stay in the classroom until things were settled. So I took the MCAT, which was the boards that you had to take when you apply for medical school, and I did; I passed. I had studied on my own and I passed and I got into New York Medical. Soon to find out after a year that it was not to be because the amount of work and reading was too much for me. So I switched over to the nurse practitioner program in Pace University, and I completed the program there. Angelica Bullock 23:09 Did you enjoy your time there at Pace? Sr. Linda Giuli 23:11 Absolutely, it was great. I got a great education. Angelica Bullock 23:15 And what did you do after you graduated? Sr. Linda Giuli 23:19 Oh, my first job was with the Westchester County Department of Health at the New Rochelle District Office. I lived in Mamaroneck at the time, so that was easy. And after a couple of years I went to Burikin Family Clinic in East Harlem and after that, I went to Montefiore for 22 years. And after that I went to St. Barnabas Hospital in the Bronx. That was an interesting job, I liked it very much. It was psychology and drug addiction. I took care of a lot of AIDS patients. -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 24:11 How did you feel having a new career after teaching? Did you think of your... Sr. Linda Giuli 24:20 I was glad to be out of school. I liked the work as a nurse practitioner and I worked with really, really wonderful people. Angelica Bullock 24:33 Do you think you would have stayed in the community if the President told you that you couldn't become a nurse practitioner? Sr. Linda Giuli 24:44 Of course I would have stayed. Of course, that was never an issue. Angelica Bullock 24:53 So you would have been okay with being a teacher? Sr. Linda Giuli 24:58 Sure, I would have beat up all the kids everyday and given them a lot of homework and been really mean, but I would have stayed. Angelica Bullock 25:12 Do you think at the time that it was easier to make this switch from teaching to being a nurse practitioner? Just because it was kind of that time, like during the 70s where things were changing in the church and I guess changing with the Sisters? Sr. Linda Giuli 25:30 And I was young, I mean, I was only, 33. You know, I wasn't ever adverse to change in fact, I greeted change. I mean, I never had a problem with that. I rolled with the punches pretty easily. Angelica Bullock 25:54 Why did you want to become a nurse practitioner? Sr. Linda Giuli 25:59 Always from when I was a little girl always wanted to be a nurse. Always. Angelica Bullock 26:06 Did you know why or do you just feel like you had a calling to be a nurse? Yeah, I did. Was there anyone else in your family who was a nurse or a doctor or in medicine? No, one of my younger cousins, two of my younger cousins became nurses also. When you were a nurse, did you ever see God in your work? -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Linda Giuli 26:36 Being on that level with people, I think is a spirituality in itself. And when I was working with AIDS people, drug addiction and AIDS people, that was very serious work. Very, very often their lives, you knew that their lives were going to be so shortened and ... I guess I'm just trying to think on how to say, being kind to people who are so sick with so little hope and in those days, if you had AIDS there was not much hope to survive. Being kind and understanding and caring for people with disease of that magnitude was being very, I think in the greatest definition of being religious. When I was in Rego Park which was the Brooklyn Diocese I got into involved in ITV, Instructional Television (Archdiocese of New York). And always one of the reasons why communications was my second Master's. But then again, I got changed back to New York to St. Mary's in Yonkers, so I didn't need it anymore. I'm trying to... Angelica Bullock 28:23 What did you do at ITV? Sr. Linda Giuli 28:27 I actually did television, not live; it was filmed. I prepared lesson plans for little children, first grade, in fact, I wore a pale blue habit. It was the same habit that we had in white, only it was pale blue because white was not good for television; it was too bright. It was pale blue, and I would put that on when I got to the studio, and then take it off to come home. It was interesting. Angelica Bullock 29:01 Did you like it? No, I wouldn't want to do it forever. In fact, I didn't want to be in school. I mean, I never really wanted to be in school. One of the good things that happened when I was in Rego Park, and I loved the people in Rego Park. They were many, many of the people were Cuban refugees. They came over in the Mariel boats. They were wonderful, wonderful people, and I needed to learn to speak Spanish. My Spanish wasn't good enough. So somebody put my address down as Mount St. Vincent, instead of real far, and I got a chance to study Spanish in Puerto Rico one summer, and that helped a lot. I didn't know much about TV back then, but wasn't the rise of TV as we do it now during the time you were working for ITV, in the sixties? Well, it was a new concept in education, that's for sure and the Brooklyn Diocese was wonderful in terms of the leadership they had in education. So the use of television in classroom was good. -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Giuli, Sister Linda Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 30:14:00 Location The location of the interview Mount Saint Vincent, Bronx, New York Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Giuli, Sister Linda, SC, Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Giuli, Sister Linda, SC Sisters of Charity (New York, N.Y.) Monasticism and religious life of women Nurse practitioners Description An account of the resource Sr. Linda Giuli discusses her life as a Sister of Charity of New York, growing up as the only child in an Italian family in the Bronx, and the value of her missions as a teacher and a nurse. Although as a young sister Sr. Linda taught elementary school, she was always interested in pursuing health care. She began her second career as a nurse practitioner at the age of thirty-three and continued this pursuit until her retirement. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-09-10 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Transcriber; Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Giuli, Sister Linda, SC, Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York Education Healthcare Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/a0d0abeb6c9e5dd1d5fef502a039fee0.jpg 4ae3c93555b388c642c0a893ec3ef959 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/66bbf0b012b59a31d60fa10f9e1789c8.pdf da3a08de63e6ba354d41ed87c3e9f773 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Grace Henke, SC Monday, October 28, 2019, 3:23PM • 41:24 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is Monday, October 28, 2019. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. The interviewee is Sister Grace Henke. It is about 10:49am, and we are at the ALP (Assisted Living Program). Sr. Grace Henke 00:20 Right. Angelica Bullock 00:21 So Sr. Grace Henke, can you please state your full name? Sr. Grace Henke 00:25 Yes, it is Grace Cecilia Henke. Angelica Bullock 00:30 And what was or is your religious name? Sr. Grace Henke 00:34 My religious name was Sr. Mary Adrienne Henke. Angelica Bullock 00:46 And what is your current age? Sr. Grace Henke 00:49 My current age? Let's see, I was born in 1932. So what would that make me? I guess? So that would be 1932, would be 68, 78 and 9- 87. Did you get that? All right. (laughter) Angelica Bullock 01:14 Okay. And do you remember approximately what year you entered the congregation? Sr. Grace Henke 01:20 1951. Angelica Bullock 01:23 And you remember your age at the time? Sr. Grace Henke 01:26 I think I was probably, well, that's 1932 to 1951- do that on your calculator. (laughter) -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 01:37 19 Sr. Grace Henke 01:39 I was 19. I was surprised. Angelica Bullock 01:41 Okay. Sr. Grace Henke 01:42 I worked for a year at the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, which was like the annex to the Sisters of Charity. Really, because we had to work for a year for a dowry, some kind of a dowry. So we save money. Angelica Bullock 01:58 You know, I think I did hear another Sister that I interviewed...She said that she worked there. 02:06 A lot of us work there. And when we left, they knew that we were there. You know, we were there for the year. And they gave us a party and gave us gifts. (laughter) Angelica Bullock 02:20 And you mentioned the dowry. Was there, like, was it expensive? Sr. Grace Henke 02:25 I don't remember. I don't remember, I think might have been a couple of hundred dollars, but I don't remember. Angelica Bullock 02:30 Okay. Sr. Grace Henke 02:30 It was just that you were supposed to bring some kind of money with you. And of course, we had all graduated from high school. Angelica Bullock 02:37 Okay. And how many years have you been in the congregation? Sr. Grace Henke 02:43 Well, I guess that we have to do that again. 51 one today. I guess it's 67 or 68. It's a whole lifetime. Angelica Bullock 02:57 68 years. -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 02:58 Isn't that amazing? Angelica Bullock 03:00 68 years is a long time. Sr. Grace Henke 03:02 It's a long time. Do I look 87? Angelica Bullock 03:06 No. (Laughter) I never think sisters look their age though. And I always feel like sisters look younger than the general population. Do you think so? Sr. Grace Henke 03:18 I think so too. Angelica Bullock 03:19 Yeah. Okay, so going down the list. This leads us to general information, a little bit about where you from. So where were you born? Sr. Grace Henke 03:34 I was born in the Bronx. Angelica Bullock 03:37 And did you grow up in the Bronx? Sr. Grace Henke 03:38 I grew up in the Bronx. Angelica Bullock 03:40 And what about your parents? Where were they from? Sr. Grace Henke 03:43 My mother was from Washington DC. She was Adrienne Lemerle. And Adrian was spelt the way I spelled my name. It is very French and my father grew up in New York. And he was Eugene Raymond Henke. Can you imagine a Lemerle- Adrianne Lemerle, married Eugene Henke. But- they did, they had a good life together. He died when he was 35. Angelica Bullock 04:24 Wow. Sr. Grace Henke 04:24 So it was very hard on my mother. -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 04:27 And how did you feel? I guess, losing your father so young. Sr. Grace Henke 04:33 Well, I probably- I was only 10 at the time. So, you know, I didn't I really didn't know. I remember it was a big thing, whether or not they were going to let me see my father and the funeral home. You know, like it must've been traumatic or not. And I can remember they did let me go in. And like I touched him, and I just said to myself, he's very cold. Like, because he was like, sleeping, you know? Angelica Bullock 05:05 And did you grow up in different areas of the Bronx or just one? Sr. Grace Henke 05:09 No, we grew up I well, Leland. Well, when I was young, we grew up in Hollywood Avenue, and went to St. Francis de Chantel. And then my father worked for Con Edison. So, we moved to Leland day Avenue, because he could get on the subway, the elevated subway- dance point, which is where he worked. So, we really grew up in the Bronx really. Went to let's see, St. Francis de Chantel. And then we moved to Blessed Sacrament. And that was very interesting because and St. Francis de Chantel, they put you in size places in school. So because I was big girl, I was in the back. I didn't know that I couldn't see. I couldn't get my classes- I couldn't do the homework. My father used to get very upset with me. When we moved to Leland Avenue, we went to Blessed Sacrament, the Sisters of Charity. And the first thing they did was give me a test for sight and told me I needed glasses. And I can still remember, to this day, walking out on the street at night. And it was, it was Parkchester, it was like a Fairyland, to see the lights to see everything so clear. Angelica Bullock 06:35 So that kind of leads to my next question. When did you first know the Sisters of Charity of New York? Sr. Grace Henke 06:43 Well, when I went to a Blessed Sacrament, that's when I met the Sisters of Charity. And I was very impressed with them. They were very kind. I don't know what the other sisters were, but these sisters were very kind- and I can remember going to visit them in the convent. Like I enjoyed being with them. And it wasn't until I went to Cathedral High School, we had the Sisters of Charity. I was in the annex for two years and had the Christian charities. And I was thinking of religious life then. The Christian charities really were a German order. And I said, Oh, I don't want a German order, because I wanted to stay where my mother was. So the last two years, you went to the main building, which was Cathedral High School, and you'll hear a lot of sisters went to Cathedral High School. And it was there- I was getting my coat and Sister Anna Mercedes came behind me. This is my senior year. And she said to me, “You have a vocation.” And I burst out crying because, I guess I hadn't thought about it at all. I really thought I was going to go to Hunter College and be in the science field. You know? So, after that, when I thought about that, that's when I spoke to Father, you know, Father Dunellen, and said, “How can I leave my mother alone?” -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 08:13 Did he give you any advice? Sr. Grace Henke 08:16 He said, “If you have that vocation, you, you should pay attention to it. And let me talk to your mother.” So he talked to my mother, and she accepted it, which was wonderful. I mean, wasn't it wonderful of her to accept that, because she lost my father and then she lost me. But, when I was at St. Vincent's, she used to come to visit me whenever we could at the Mount (Mount Saint Vincent), and then she would visit me at St. Vincent's Hospital. We had a visit every month, and she would come and visit. Angelica Bullock 08:53 And did you have any other members of your family that were in religious life at that time? Sr. Grace Henke 08:59 I'm the only one. Angelica Bullock 09:00 Wow. Sr. Grace Henke 09:01 I'm the only one. I'm praying now for (redacted). Who is about maybe a teenager now? Because he seemed to be tending toward religious life. So he doesn't know, but I'm praying every day he becomes a priest. You don't know what we're praying for you. Angelica Bullock 09:26 Yeah, that was that was a very big sacrifice of your mom. Sr. Grace Henke 09:31 It really was. Yeah. And that's why I thought the Sisters of Charity. I had thought about the Maryknolls but they go to foreign missions, and they take care of a lot of bugs. So I said to myself, if I go to stay, take a New York- New York convent. It won't be bad. I won't have a lot of bugs. And I'll be near my mother, which was one of the reasons why I chose this community. Angelica Bullock 10:04 And do remember anything about like when you first entered the community? Sr. Grace Henke 10:10 People kept telling us that we were going to scrub the floor with toothbrushes. I mean, this is the kind of thing they told you. "Oh when you join the convent." No, I remember, I must tell you it was like a few. The three years of religious life was like a mystery to me. I did everything I was supposed to do. Went every place I was supposed to go, but I don't remember a lot of it to be honest with you. -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 10:44 And when you entered, where there a lot of girls from your high school, Cathedral, that entered the same time? Sr. Grace Henke 10:50 Yes, I would say- we were 41 that entered- I would say half of them are probably from Cathedral. Cathedral High School and St. Barnabas were the two major areas. The sisters, sisters taught there. And that's how you got to know them. Angelica Bullock 11:09 And do you think it was easier entering, knowing that you already knew people? Like you kind of knew some people in the community? Sr. Grace Henke 11:19 No, I wasn't, it didn't, nothing affected me that way- it was just myself and my vocation with God, I think is what drew me and whoever was with me, that was accepted. Angelica Bullock 11:34 I see. So it is more your personal relationship with God. Sr. Grace Henke 11:38 Yes. Yes, I would think so. Angelica Bullock 11:43 And when you entered, did you feel like you're fulfilling that desire, I guess, to get closer to God? Sr. Grace Henke 11:52 I feel that that's true. That it was our-my mission, to serve the Lord and His people. To take care of the poor. Angelica Bullock 12:02 I guess now we can skip to ministries... Sr. Grace Henke 12:06 Okeydoke. Angelica Bullock 12:07 So, I'm gonna let you take charge, and tell me about your ministry. -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 12:13 So, when I entered it, we took the CUDA preference test. And when we were seniors, and we went into the School of Nursing. When we first went in to, to the school, there was no place for us. There were no-It was I think there were over 60 sisters working at St Vincent's Hospital, and there was no room for us in the residence. So, we lived at Immaculate Conception in the Bronx, which was a school on 14th Street. And we lived there, and every morning we would get on. If it was a nice day we'd walk over to St. Vincent's, which was on 12 Street. Angelica Bullock 12:50 Okay. Sr. Grace Henke 12:51 It was about maybe four, four or five blocks away. But on days that the weather wasn't good, we'd take the bus. So that was interesting. When we went there we were in our black habits, and they gave us a course, a crash course- taught us to be nurses’ aides. So, one of the sisters would give us- Sister Patrice gave me hers-would give us an apron, that white apron that we'd put it on and we'd go to- we went over in March, and we didn't start school till September. So, for those few months, we were living at Immaculate conception and then going back and forth and working as nurses, aides. Angelica Bullock 13:33 Okay. And did you always have some kind of desire to be a nurse? Sr. Grace Henke 13:40 Yes. When I was a Senior I went to I went to St. Vincent's open house, and I know now it was a really a brandy, one of the teachers and she was very quick and she really didn't want to do this open up. So she took us in one door showed us showed us this classroom where they taught, you know, blood pressure and goal and took us out the door. Then I went to I went to Columbia Presbyterian. Each person that went, had a student nurse assigned to them. We had high tea. And then they took us around the hospital. And they took us into the operating room. You know, when you look at the movies, and you have that balcony, and we were so astonished, then they took us to their residence. Each student nurse had her own room, and I said to myself, wow, I'm gonna go here. Of course, I entered the lead at St Vincent's Hospital. But that was fun. So, I really was interested in nursing before. So it was, it was wonderful. I was able to do that. Angelica Bullock 14:53 And how many years were you a nurse for about? Sr. Grace Henke 14:57 Well, I am a nurse. How many years have how many years have I been practicing nursing? I practice nursing till about 2003 so if we started and in 1954 we can do that on computer, before 2003. That was a lot of news. Yes, Angelica Bullock 15:25 Yeah. Forty-nine years. -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 15:27 That's a lot of years. So, from here, I don't know if you want all this, I was a student nurse and a graduate and an assistant head nurse, and then an evening supervisor. And then I was an instructor in the School of Nursing. I taught anatomy and physiology, pharmacology, and I wrote a book called 'Med Math.' You know, I was teaching pharmacology and this the salesman always come every and a salesman from Lippincott came in, he said, just you're not buying a book. I said, I don't like your book. I'm doing my own. I'm doing my own worksheets. So he said, Could you give me some? So I said, Yes, sure. So he came back a couple of weeks later and he said, We'd like to publish your, you know, your sheets as a workbook. So I spoke to Sister Mary Robin, who is the directed and she said, Why don't you go ahead and do it? It's a big job to do a book. So I did 'Med Math' which was dosage calculation and administration. And that went into five additions. In fact, it's still I think, somebody told me they saw it at one of the, what is it place that sells textbooks? Barnes and Noble. I saw it at Barnes and Noble. So, I did five additions and then after that, they wanted to go into a digital one with a computer. And I said, I really wasn't qualified to do that. So, somebody has a name on, it's 'Henke's Med Math', but somebody suing somebody from the University of Georgia is doing the computer one. So, we were lucky. We got royalties for five years. On that I sent them to the community. What am I gonna do with royalties? Angelica Bullock 17:26 But how does that feel to know that you have like your own textbook and students are …? Sr. Grace Henke 17:31 Well, I wanted, you know, I'm terrible at math. So, I when I did a textbook, I did the textbook for people who were terrible in math, so I always felt very good. In fact, I have something here. Let's see. When I had my 50th anniversary, let me see if I can find this. Elena [Director of Communications] put it on, this was… that's the book. Angelica Bullock 18:02 There's a lot of chapters, thirteen chapters. Sr. Grace Henke 18:05 Well, it was a lot to teach. Oh, here it is. So, these are some of the comments from people. Angelica Bullock 18:15 Oh, this is nice. See? Sr. Grace Henke 18:19 That makes that made me feel so good. And one of them way down at the end said, “I was terrible in math, and she helped me.” I mean, just that one person. I said, “Oh, wow.” Angelica Bullock 18:32 So, I'm reading aloud one of these comments and they're saying that you're one of the best teachers that they ever had. A lot of people are saying that, are saying thank you to you. How does that feel? -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 18:47 Feels very good. Now, let me tell you what happened. While I was teaching there, they started a nursing course at [College of] Mount Saint Vincent and they made their students take a nursing drug test dosage test. And if they didn't get one hundred, they wouldn't keep them. So, they were having a problem because they couldn't fire or discharge these students. So, they called me and they said, “Would you come?” I said to myself, these are very bright women. They just don't understand what it is. So, I took a whole bunch of medicines, and a whole bunch of medicine tickets. And I said to them, “Here is the order that the doctor ordered and this is the way the drug comes.” And they said, “Oh, so then it was easy to figure it out.” Once you understood. The problem was they weren't doing practical work with them. So, then they all passed. They were right, you know? Angelica Bullock 19:49 But I mean, how does it - I'm not in the sciences at all. But I guess medicine seems like a very like lifeor-death situation, right? You can't mess up dosages right? Sr. Grace Henke 20:05 So, that's right. I would make my students get 100%. But if they didn't get 100%, because I said to them,”If you got 98% in this test, and the 2%, that you didn't know, was the 2% drug that you were giving me,” I said, “Something terrible could happen to me.” So, I want you in the beginning to get 100% to prove that you could do it and not make an error. We did a lot of work on read the label three times, read the medicine three times, check what you're doing. So, I always felt very good about doing that, that I was able to help people help patients by helping the students, was wonderful. It's a wonderful gift. Really. Angelica Bullock 20:54 Do you remember your early days of nursing? Sr. Grace Henke 20:59 Yes. That was in the Ward building, it was called the Seton Building and I worked on the female floor. And these were little old ladies in a room, there were 10 of them in the room, and they were all fractured hips. And in those days when a little old lady got a fractured hip, they put her in traction. So, she was in traction for several weeks at a time until it healed and on her back all the time. So, the nursing care was very, very serious, because you didn't want them to get bed sores. And I was the assistant head nurse. I put two aides on in the evening instead of one aide and two nurses. I put two nurses so that that room would get good care. And every morning I'd come in and they pull that nurse aid to someplace else. I would run down to nursing administration and say, “I put two aides on and you took one, you have to think of the whole hospital,” used to drive me crazy. But anyway, that was wonderful nursing care. And then I was moved to St. Joseph's, which was a men's room. And a lot of them were diabetics. They were homeless men from the street. So, lots of times at St. Vincent's, this was before insurance, we would keep them all winter. And in the springtime, we’d get them clothes and shoes, and get social service to help them find a place to live. And then let them go out. Was a whole different way of giving nursing then. Now, the first thing they want to see is are you covered. What's your insurance, right? Yeah. And I think St. Vincent, I think we lost, because we would take anybody, I mean anybody in the emergency room, regardless of their ability to pay, that was a wonderful gift that -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �we gave to people, you know, the Lord enabled us to do that. Of course, that's probably one of the reasons why we had to close because we ran out of money. Angelica Bullock 23:22 What do you think that's the conversation now? And universal health care and caring for those who don't have insurance? Because when you're at St. Vincent's, that was kind of like the pioneer for all the stuff that's being talked about. Sr. Grace Henke 23:40 So now, we do have these sponsored works that we do, we still have St. Joseph's Hospital [Yonkers, NY]. We have St. Vincent's Harrison [Westchester, NY], which is a mental health pavilion, and we do a lot of work, helping people get insurance. That's part of our work now. You know, with the different sponsored works that we have. And people who come in like Casa Esperanza [Multiservice Center, Yonkers, NY], you know, helping people to learn English and giving them all kinds of supportive services, POTS (Part of the Solution) is another one. We're not in the hospitals now. I think that we were trying to figure out when we went to the last wake, how many nurses were left? I think there may be five of us, five of us in the whole, we were never a large group, you know, in the Community. But if you look at us now, we're all in ArchCare. So that's using the Archdiocesan work. So, we're benefiting from our own help. You know, I can remember when we had an Assembly and the question was would we go into social security? And there was a big to do about that. There are a lot of sisters who said, we shouldn't be going into Social Security, because that's for the poor, and we should be able to take care of ourselves. And I think some sisters left the Community on the head of that. But thank God it was Sr. Margaret Dowling [President, 1971-1979] I think, who brought us into that. And at St. Vincent's, we were working, but we were like, when I was teaching, we were getting a good salary, but we never saw it, it went into the Community. So, in fact, we weren't getting it, I think we were getting a stipend, and W. R. Grace was the chair of the Board of Trustees. And he said to Sr. Loretta Bernard [Mother Loretta Bernard Beagan, 1960-1966; Administrator, St. Vincent’s Hospital], 'Your sisters should get the money from the work that they're doing because they are doing professional work, and that money was what enabled us to pay back all the the Social Security for all the sisters who had taught. So that's how we get the minimum social security. But can you imagine what a great gift that was? Angelica Bullock 26:15 I want to know why you mentioned that some sisters didn't want you to have those benefits? Sr. Grace Henke 26:22 They felt that it belonged to the poor. And we shouldn't be using the money of the poor. That's what they felt. They were very strong. I think some sisters really left the Community. You can ask other people what they thought about that. But where would we go? If we didn't have Social Security now. We were living with Social Security and Medicare, Medicaid, we're on supplemental insurance. We even get something here we get a card from CVS [drug store], which is $50 a month. And there are certain things that you can buy with that like toothpaste and stuff like that. If you don't use that $50 a month, you lose it. And then you get $50 for the next month. Can you imagine? We'd be with getting that with your taxes. Thank you. Thank you. - 10 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 27:28 But I think that's good, right. I mean, you spent all of your life but still, helping other people. Sr. Grace Henke 27:35 Well, like when Obama wanted insurance for all, it should be insurance for all people shouldn't have to not have insurance, they should be able to go. Okay, we're one of the worst countries in the world for health care. Angelica Bullock 27:53 Okay, I'm going to switch now to the paper I see in front of me about the St. Elizabeth Ann Seton Award. Do you want to talk a little bit about receiving that award? Sr. Grace Henke 28:06 Well, as I said to you, at St. Vincent's Hospital, when we had them, it was really a fundraising thing. It was, I think it was the Alfred E. Smith [Memorial Foundation] fundraising and there had to be a Sister every year. So I think after a few years, we were running out of sisters at the Hospital. So I don't take any I don't take any big, I don't feel excited about it. I just say, 'It was my turn.' You can read this award. But this is what this is what I said. One of the things that I did in the School of Nursing, which was wonderful, we weren't accepting people who didn't meet our admission requirements. And I said to Sister Robert [Sr. Mary Robert Nagle], we really should do something about that. So, I got money from the Gilroy Foundation, and from where else? The United Hospital Fund. And I started what's called, we called it a TAP program, and that meant Tutorial Assistance Program. So, we would take women who didn't meet our admission requirements, we'd bring them in, in the summertime, and tutor them. Get them into the idea of studying and help them. Some of them didn't even know that Manhattan was an island. You know, like, if your family loved you, they kept you home. You went to school, and then you stayed home. So, they didn't have a lot of experience. So, we gave them some experiences of being, you know, around the city. And then we tutored them in the School of Nursing and over 10 years period, is I wrote that down over 10 years period, we had 70 women who graduated and received their R.N.'s (Registered Nurse). Isn't that wonderful? And then I started a bioethics course, because we really needed ethics and nursing. So they asked me from the college, we didn't call it pharmacology, we called it pharmaco-physiology. And I did that for several views. That was very interesting; it was fun. And then one of the sisters asked me, Sister Marion Hunt, no it wasn't Marion Hunt, it was Kathleen Hunt, asked me if I would teach with her in philosophy. They wanted to two instructors in each course. so that they could make the course more, what's the word I want? Not more interesting, more valuable, more tuned. So, she would teach philosophy and I would do bioethics. So, I did that for three years with her. Angelica Bullock 31:21 What exactly is bioethics? - 11 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 31:23 Bioethics says, when you're researching a situation, this person is in coma, should we turn off the life support or not? Should we do this? Should we do this surgery or not? So bioethics is, right decisionmaking. in this situation. What's the best thing that I can do, what's the best outcome that I can ask for in this situation? So it helps you sometimes, especially when we did it, we had a bioethics program in St Vincent's Hospital. And we would go around, anybody could ask us, a nurse could ask us to please come, or a doctor could ask us to please come, or a visitor or anybody could come. And there was a group of us and we would apply these principles of bioethics. Angelica Bullock 32:22 I never thought about that before, but I guess that seems very important. It's not only like the medical attention. Sr. Grace Henke 32:35 You're doing it all the time. We're doing it all the time, right? It's not only medical, it's everything. Angelica Bullock 32:46 You think that learning bioethics as a nurse, or your students, makes you more compassionate or more ethical? Sr. Grace Henke 33:00 It makes you more ethical, it makes you more logical in terms of decision-making, because sometimes you're not sure. Should I do this or should I do that? What should I do? So as a professional, it was important for them to be exposed to that. Angelica Bullock 33:23 What else would you like to talk about, Sister Grace? Sr. Grace Henke 33:27 I'm looking to see. Okay. I just wanted to say this. When, when I was at St. Vincent's, it was a community hospital. It was very small and charity was very strong. I told you we served anybody who came in whether they were poor or able to pay. And St. Vincent's, the other thing that we did was, AIDS became rampant when we were at St. Vincent's. And we were the hospital that was known as the AIDS hospital. The doctors and nurses we all got together, and different groups and we said,” AIDS is not a social disease. It's a disease, and it should be treated as such.” So we would have whole floors of AIDS patients that we took care of. And the Village [Greenwich Village] always appreciated us with a Catholic hospital. So when they didn't need us, they didn't come. But for AIDS, they came. And we were proud of that, that we were known as an AIDS hospital. And now it's wonderful because the medicines that they have now are really good. In the beginning, they had no medicines that worked well. Angelica Bullock 34:48 I guess, how did it feel working there at that time when HIV AIDS was so rampant, and people didn't know a lot about what it was? I think in my time, it seems like you can have HIV and it's kind of manageable. - 12 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Grace Henke 35:10 It's manageable. See, in those days, if you got AIDS you we're going to die. It was just no two ways about it. But we were able to take care of them. You're right. Now STD (Sexually Transmitted Diseases), know all those things. Now they just know that they're there because they know there are drugs that work. It's a whole different attitude. And in those days AIDS patients were frowned upon. I mean, people looked at them and said, “Oh, you know, what are they doing to themselves? What have they done?” But we didn't; we never turned them away. We took care of them. It was wonderful. Angelica Bullock 35:53 And did the patients ever express their gratitude towards you or the families? Did they have families? Sr. Grace Henke 36:02 Oh, yeah. Well, because they had significant others. And they were allowed into the hospital they were allowed to take care of them. Yes. You know, people even today, you know, so many years later, people will say to you, well, you were the AIDS hospital. You know, it was wonderful. I wrote down here in the late 60s, remember, how still at St. Vincent's the world changed, and the Congregation changed with it. The Sisters were leaving schools to begin other works. And the Congregation began to change. So that's really true. Angelica Bullock 36:40 How does it feel then when the Congregation started changing? Sr. Grace Henke 36:46 Well, let me think about that because, that's true. People were leaving the works that they were in. Sisters were leaving the works that they were in to do other works like social work. Like the things that we're talking about, you know, the sponsored works into housing and into caring for refugees and people who needed different kinds of activity and leaving hospitals and leaving schools. And the problem with leaving schools was to my mind, the idea of a Catholic school is very important to teach religion so that people grow up knowing some kind of background in religion. And now we don't have that. There aren't Sisters in schools anymore. There are different kinds of work. So that was a big problem. Because the question was, were you going to leave nursing? You know, to do something else. And I said to myself, well, this is my vocation. So, I felt very strong in my vocation, and I stayed with it until I retired actually. Either nursing itself or toward the end of my career, teaching, you know, teaching and writing. Angelica Bullock 38:16 Did most Sisters who were nurses stay nurses or do they go and do other things? Sr. Grace Henke 38:22 Most of the people who were nurses did nurse, and what happened was some of the Sisters who had been teaching who really wanted to nurse asked, and all the different things that came was poverty, chastity and obedience; were the three vows that you took. And after Vatican II, it became poverty, chastity and discernment. So, discernment meant you pray to God, you talk to other people, and you decided really what would be the best thing for you, a whole different ballgame. So, I am a - 13 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Heinegeplatz German (obedient) German. So poverty, chastity, obedience meant a lot to me. So, when people were discerning, I was getting distressed because they were leaving schools and see what I'm saying. But I stayed with nursing. But they were very happy. And God was calling them to that. So now I look, when I look at the changes, I don't know did you attend the last Assembly? I don't know, if you ever get a chance to go. What's happening now is they're wonderful. I must read something that I wrote here. We have begun to change and it is exciting. Sisters are energetic and focused on continuing the mission. And I love how the assembly is evolving and the Leadership is developing. Angelica Bullock 40:02 It sounds very positive and inspirational. Sr. Grace Henke 40:05 It's wonderful. It's, so I'm saying now, and the fact that we're here, like I said to Sr. Margaret O'Brien [Treasurer and Councilor, Congregation Leadership], “Is this helpful that we're here? Because we could be any place, you know.” But when she said, “Yes, it's helpful,” so that's my mission now; is to be here. Prayer is my mission in this place, and to be present to the people who live here and work here. Just being here as a Aister is good. We get a list from the Development Office every month for people who are asking for our prayers, and we are very grateful when they write and say something positive happened. Most of the time we don't know. But we keep praying. That's our thing. Angelica Bullock 40:54 That's very nice, because I think a lot of people do want people to pray for them. Sr. Grace Henke 40:59 Yes. Yes. And if you ask me to pray for you, I ask you with, what the first name of the person is, and I put that in my prayer envelope. I say, 'Lord, I may forget, but you remember.' So, we say the rosary every day for all those people who have asked for our prayers, and we mention if we need other intentions, we mention them too. - 14 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai � https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/294797d171691ffa455328ffcf94165f.mp3 feb84f6ef38fe7300bc6952c1223d930 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henke, Grace, SC Location The location of the interview The New Jewish Home, Kittay Senior Apartments, Bronx, New York Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:24:00 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Henke, Sister Grace, SC., Interview Subject The topic of the resource Henke, Sister Grace Description An account of the resource Sr. Grace Henke, SC, details her formative years as a novice and extensive career as a nurse and instructor at St. Vincent's Hospital School of Nursing. Sr. Grace authored 'Med-Math: Dosage Calculation Preparation and Administration' to simplify measurement of medications needed for patients. Sr. Grace developed a program to tutor underprivileged students to become nurses. She was part of the team that treated AIDS patients in the Greenwich Village hospital during the early years of the crisis. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Henke, Grace, SC Bullock, Angelica Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-10-28 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Transcriber, Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Henke, Sister Grace, SC, Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City AIDS Healthcare Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/58c491bf6fc07923a300a7c6013a2d7e.jpg 973c4a96574fe29c1402afc903d147fe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed King, Sister Rita, SC Location The location of the interview Convent of Mount Saint Vincent Bronx, New York Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 54:50:00 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource King, Sister Rita, SC, Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Sister Rita King, SC Description An account of the resource As an educator and archivist, Sr. Rita King's career has been steeped in the pursuit of history. A former high school teacher, Dean and Principal, Sr. Rita was Congregation Archivist for over 15 years. During this time, she developed an arrangement by record group of archival materials and created a database of Sisters' records that became an essential research tool. Involved in the early development of the Archivists for Congregations of Women Religious (ACWR), she served a two-year term as President. Retired since 2008, Sr. Rita provides her thoughts about the role of an archivist, training and archival certification. completion of the Community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-30 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Transcriber, Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context King, Rita SC, Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/09949f91ef7bf01e600b33aea06d5426.jpg 8326cc3a4657486cd56e51ad20ed8e8c https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/1ed7318f195737913bea8666f0621060.mp3 1fb0fc65ace16bbc8b81ce1604e2ea89 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/c4558a10e8fd2aa8520bac132da57748.pdf 0ef74f0b5bb72e5d3db878f85cb4aaf9 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Patricia Quinn, SC September 26th, 2019: 10:34AM • 36:32 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is September 26th, 2019. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. The interviewee is Sister Pat Quinn. We are in the Archives at Boyle Hall and we are in the Reading Room. And the time is 1:37 pm. Sr. Pat, can you state your full name? Sr. Pat Quinn 00:25 My full name is Sr. Patricia Ann Quinn. Angelica Bullock 00:32 And your religious name? Sr. Pat Quinn 00:36 My religious name, Patricia Carmel Quinn. Angelica Bullock 00:42 And what is your current age? Sr. Pat Quinn 00:44 Right now? I'm 73. Angelica Bullock 00:48 And do you remember the day that you entered the congregation? Sr. Pat Quinn 00:53 I do remember some of it. I don't remember all of it. I remember coming my parents and my family. And being out on the lawn. And then at a certain, of course, my mother was upset. Not that she wasn't happy for me. She was just upset that I was leaving home, I guess. And then I remember I suppose a bell rang, and we went in to the postulatum and changed into our postulatum, lot of clothes, postulant clothes, and came back out. I think we came back out, I'm not sure. I know we had benediction that day before the parents left. So that's all I remember about that day. It was a long time ago. Angelica Bullock 01:39 Do you remember what was your age? Sr. Pat Quinn 01:41 I was 17 and-one-half at the time, and that was 1963. And I've been in the congregation now 56 years. Hard to believe; the time has gone by very fast. Angelica Bullock 01:56 Okay, so now we're going to just talk a little bit about your family life. Where were you born? -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Pat Quinn 02:03 I was born in Manhattan on the Upper West Side, actually on West 105th Street, and that's where I grew up and lived until the time I entered. My parents had come from Ireland in the 1920s and from the same town, Longford, in Ireland, and I had one sister and four brothers; I'm sorry, not four brothers, three brothers. There were five of us all together. One brother is my twin brother, Mike. So there were five all together. I had a cousin in religious life, she was Sr. John Carmel. That's how I got to have Carmel as part of my religious name and she later became my sponsor when I entered. The parish I belonged to was Ascension on West 107th Street was the church, on 108th street was the school that I went to for grammar school. Then I went onto Blessed Sacrament High School on West 70th Street. Angelica Bullock 03:23 And how did you pick those schools, or how did your parents pick those schools? Well, in those days, like now, you had to take a test to get into the high schools. And that school was close to me, I was on 105th and that school was on West 70th street and it was also a Sister of Charity school. So I guess the location helped a lot, you know, it wasn't that far to go because you had to go by bus. So then when I entered, of course, I went to the college here (College of Mount Saint Vincent). And I also went to Hunter College. I got my master's degree in Hunter (College), and I got another master's degree from St. Joseph's Seminary, Masters of Religious Education. Angelica Bullock 04:19 What was your Masters degree in? Sr. Pat Quinn 04:20 From the Mount (College of Mount Saint Vincent), English. That was my first degree. And at Hunter my Master's was in teaching reading. So I was in school you might say from in college anyway from '63 to '81. Angelica Bullock 04:42 Wow. Sr. Pat Quinn 04:45 And sometimes going down to Hunter after teaching all day, because that's when you took your courses for your Masters. So you taught all day, then you got on the subway, went down to Hunter, came back at night. Angelica Bullock 04:59 That sounds tiring. Sr. Pat Quinn 05:01 It was tiring. Angelica Bullock 05:02 Did you usually do that travel by yourself or were you doing that with other sisters? -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Pat Quinn 05:08 It depended on the course. Another Sister in my group lived with me at the time. I can't remember if we had courses at the same time, though. Could be we went together, I forget. But it was after school and Saturday mornings sometimes, depending on the course, as I said. Angelica Bullock 05:35 And how did you decide to get Master's degrees? Did your superiors suggest that to you? Or was that something you wanted to do? Or a little bit of both? Sr. Pat Quinn 05:44 Well, no, when I first was assigned, I was assigned to St. Peter and Paul School in the South Bronx. And I had to finish my degree here at the Mount. So I went on Saturdays till I got that degree and then after that, we didn't really have superiors assigned to us. So it was really by choice. But you needed to have a Master's degree, you know. And since I was in school, I enjoyed getting the Masters in teaching, reading, since I was teaching younger kids. And then I went on in the Seminary for the MRE. That was a choice also. Angelica Bullock 06:29 Can you talk about your time at the Seminary a little bit? Sr. Pat Quinn 06:33 Well, it was just classes that were held at the Seminary that you could get a Master's in religious education. I wasn't part of the Seminary with the fellows who were studying to be priests. It was classes that you could get after school or on a Saturday so you can get your degree. It was good. The classes were good. It was taught for the most part by Seminary professors who were teaching the seminarians So they were good courses, you know, in dogma, morality, scripture. There was a fourth one I forget what it is, morality, I forget. So I got my degree there and I think it was in '81. Angelica Bullock 07:22 Okay, let's go on. Why did you join the Sisters of Charity of New York? Sr. Pat Quinn 07:28 Primarily because of the Sisters that I met at Ascension and Blessed Sacrament. I had a cousin who was a Sister of Charity at the time, and I wanted to teach especially young children, and that was the charism of the Sisters of Charity; education. I waited till after high school because I kept on fighting with myself whether I really wanted to do this or not. So I said, "I think I will just enter and get this off my mind." So I had a petition to Mother Loretta Bernard, she was the President of the Congregation at the time, and the Council. And I waited til the last possible day to petition and thinking if I didn't like it, well, I will leave, but at least it will be off my mind, and I will stop thinking about whether I wanted to be a Sister of Charity or not. So it's obvious I didn't leave; here I am. My sponsor was my cousin, Jackie Dunne. She was Sr. John Carmel. She was my first cousin. And so she became my sponsor. My parents didn't object, they said whatever you want to do. They wanted me to be happy. So whatever I wanted to do, and that's what I wanted to do. So I petitioned and entered on September 8th, 1963. -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 09:11 Did you think that maybe it was easier to have a cousin who was already a Sister in the order? Sr. Pat Quinn 09:20 I guess it was, but after I entered I didn't see her, except well, maybe a couple of times during the year, they had Saturday or Sunday that we have sponsored visits. And then everybody's sponsor would come that day, but I didn't see her any more frequently than I did before I entered. Angelica Bullock 09:51 Were you in different buildings? Sr. Pat Quinn 09:55 Well, I was here at the Mount she was over I think at the time at St. Barnabas. When I entered I remember going up there to talk to her at Barnabas. And then she was in other places as the years went on. But that's where she was when I entered. I liked the Sisters that I had in school. I loved my first-grade teacher. Sr. Thomas was her name, Sr. Thomas Marie Callahan. And my eighth-grade teacher, Sr. Marion Margaret Sullivan, both of whom are deceased. And of course then I also had my cousin, But the sisters in grammar school and high school were really an inspiration. You know, they were always there. They gave us a good education. You know, and I liked seeing them walking around the neighborhood. After school, I guess they went out in partners and they walked. We would always see them on the avenue walking. I felt like they were with us, you know, in the neighborhood. When I became a postulant, I had Sr. Agnes Connelly. She was the mistress of postulants and Sr. Kathleen Hanrahan was the mistress of novices. And I truly enjoyed the novitiate. I liked everything about it. Even though at times I was homesick, I still enjoyed being there. You know, and they were very good. Later on we had the juniorate. It was one of the first juniorates and it was located up here in LeGras. Yeah, it was in LeGras and that was the juniory. One time, Sr. Ellen Quirke in charge of the juniory. She gave me a task, she's gave me a can of green paint to go out and paint all the windowsills. Well, I did but, unfortunately, I never stirred the paint. So every windowsill was a different green. So she said, "Didn't you stir the paint?" I said, 'No, I never painted windowsills before in my life.' But anyway, so that was interesting. After the juniory, I went up to St. Joseph's (Seminary) here in Yonkers to live. To get some more courses done. That was an innovation too. Because until then, it took the Sisters years and years to get their first degree. We had the opportunity of studying while we're in the juniory and also, another year after that, we lived on mission and we came back each day for classes. So we really were able to get, credits and that was a great help to us. Because when we were sent down on mission, there weren't that many more courses that you needed to get on a Saturday. Because you had many of your credits done. So then it was at that time of Vatican II. When I was in the novitiate, Vatican II started. Things were always changing in the Community and in the Church, so you kind of got used to rolling with everything. We were the first ones who entered who wore veils, instead of those white shower caps that you see a postulant, pictures of postulants wear; we didn't have any of that. People came with their curlers and -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �the veils were see-through, they would just like net and that went across and it tied behind, underneath your hair, see-through So that was a big innovation for the Congregation. Then as time went on when we came to First Vows, they had a habit, a newly designed habit that was supposed to look more like Mother Seton. It was designed by Bergdorf Goodman. It was shorter; the capes were very short. None of us liked it. Angelica Bullock 14:29 Why not? Sr. Pat Quinn 14:31 First of all, we didn't like looking different from everybody else. We did have that same high collar, and we wore black, sheer stockings with it. And pumps, we didn't have those tie Oxfords that we had. We had pumps, but I don't think any of us enjoyed wearing that. We were supposed to wear it on Sundays but most often we went back to what we had been wearing as novices. But things were always changing at that time. And that year after the juniory when I was sent to St. Joseph's, Yonkers is where I met my dear friend, Sr. Kieran (Mulligan). She was stationed and teaching there, and we became fast friends from that time on. I only lived with her there for that one year, but our friendship has endured all these years. Yeah, we just clicked right off. You know, I thought I was going to be staying there because they had said that the mission that you went to where you were studying for that year would be the mission that you would be assigned to. However, there were no class openings. So for most of us, they had to change us, because there were no classes to give us. For the most part, we were teachers. So that's when I was sent after that year down to St. Peter and Paul for my first teaching. I taught the second grade there. Angelica Bullock 16:13 And you have any memories from St. Peter and Paul you would like to share? Sr. Pat Quinn 16:21 Well, we had great kids. We had a big school. We had about 500 kids in that school when I first went there. And it was a very good school. It has since closed, it closed last year there. But the kids were great. The parents were great. It was a nice community there of people and sisters. When I went there, there were 12 sisters. Not that everyone was in the school but they were in the Convent. And we did aside from teaching, we did do home visiting, we visited the families, in their home and a lot of time in the evening you could send for parents. They would come to the Convent if you had problems with the child, to talk to you. So, I also did the CCD and I ran the CCD there. So that was another, from First Communion all the way to Confirmation I taught, and I ran it. So we were very busy there. I was at St. Peter and Paul for 36 years. And then when the Convent closed, I moved up to St. Peter. St. Peter to teach, but I lived up in Sacred Heart at first and then I moved from Sacred Heart to the Mount where I am now. Angelica Bullock 18:06 How did you feel when it closed. The school has been around for a long time? -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Pat Quinn 18:12 The school was still around but what happened was that the Sisters were aging. We had Sisters there, some had died, but we had Sisters who got sickly and had to go to the Convent of Mary the Queen. We couldn't keep that Convent going and it closed in 2014. I traveled back and forth for one year to that school while I lived up in Sacred Heart. But we had no Sisters. Michelle McKeon was the principal there at that time when it did close, just within the last year or two it closed. It's a charter school, I think. We used to have not only our school, but we had a branch of Cathedral (High School) there. They could go there for one year. So we also had the girls from Cathedral. It was a nice school. Angelica Bullock 19:21 Do you have any opinions on Catholic schools now, especially since your schools have Sisters in them? Sr. Pat Quinn 19:31 Well, we don't have many Sisters in the schools. Because we don't have the Sisters. It's unfortunate, but it's harder and harder to run the schools money-wise. So I go to St. Peter twice a week, as do some of the other Sisters as volunteers. But we don't have any sisters on staff. In most of the schools, it's lay faculty. Years ago, the Sisters of Charity had the schools up and down Manhattan, practically every parish up and down there were Sisters in. But we just don't have the Sisters now. But the lay staff is doing a great job with them. But money continues to be a big problem. And it's very hard for people to afford tuition. I don't know how they do it. They must give up a lot because the tuition is so high. A funny thing happened, there was a little boy that I taught at St. Peter. I taught him in the first grade. And every day I would see his mother and say hello to the mother. He was there for first, second, third and I think fourth grade and each day I'd say hello to the mother and sometimes the father would be there waiting to take this little boy home. They moved up to Wappingers Falls, and they lived opposite our school up there, St. Mary's, that we have in Wappingers Falls. We don't have the Sisters there. Sr. Kieran (Mulligan) was there for a long time. Anyway, I was up there one time just within the last three or four weeks. And who did I meet in Walmart of all places, but this mother. And so we're standing there talking, and we're talking and talking. It turned out, I had taught the mother in St. Peter and Paul. Now when I think about her I say I think I do remember her as a little child, but I would have to see a picture. Well, she was so shocked. She said, "I did have a Sr. Patricia," not realizing I was the one. We haven't seen or talked to each other about school, you know. I never realized and she was so shocked, and she said, "Oh, my sister is here. You taught my sister, too." So she brought over her sister who was shopping. We had a great conversation about people they knew, people I knew who was there. They knew the Sisters that had been there. As one of them said, her sister said, "The sisters there were like our mothers because our mothers were working and not there all the time." You know, but they said, "The Sisters were like our mothers. When we were got to school, we were at home." Of course, the little boy goes to school up there now, but she says, "Wait till I tell Ensly," that's the little boy, "wait till I tell him that you were my teacher too." So you never know where you're going to meet these kids now who are not kids anymore. They're adults raising kids, but we had nice people there. Angelica Bullock 23:13 How do you feel about your students that still remembering you and the nice words? -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Pat Quinn 23:19 Oh well, that's nice. Yes. And it's nice to see that they've gone on and they're successful, and that they enjoyed their time in the schools. I'm still in contact with some who have their own children. Now, this girl in Florida that I taught I think I taught her in the fourth grade. She has a girl now who's a senior in high school. And we email back and forth, and she sent pictures and things. It's nice. And it's nice to know that they appreciated the sisters that were there and the education they received. There's a boy in All Hallows that I taught; he's a teacher in All Hallows. So it makes you feel good that they have gotten something from their education and have gone on. Because that was not the greatest neighborhood when we were there. But the kids took advantage of their education and they went on to do well. So that's very good. Now, what I'm doing is going to St. Peter. I'm also teaching English classes here in Sr. Jean (Bocian) and Sr. Therese McElroy's Casa de Esperanza and I enjoy doing that. That's the other end of the spectrum where you have adults. I'm so used to having little kids. Although they have their little babies with them in the classroom, which is sometimes a challenge, but it's nice to be with the adults and they really want to learn their English. So that's good. I wouldn't want to change anything that I've done. Angelica Bullock 25:14 The students at Casa de Esperanza, where are they mostly coming from? What country? Sr. Pat Quinn 25:22 Well, there were was, let me see today in class, I just started this year now today; several from Mexico. There was a Muslim lady, and I couldn't get exactly the country, she said, but she was not Hispanic. Someone was from Guatemala. So a lot of the central Hispanic countries there, Central America, Mexico. Angelica Bullock 25:56 And how much English do they have coming into the classroom? Sr. Pat Quinn 26:01 They've been coming, they came last year every day, four days a week. I think Friday is the only the day that they don't go. So they're pretty good. The ones that I have are what we call the second year. So they have some English and then after the second year there's a class that's all conversation. They're anxious, very anxious to learn. How does it feel still being a teacher? Still teaching? Well, I guess that's what I was made to do. I was made to teach. I enjoy it. Although they bring their babies, sometimes it gets a little noisy. You know, the baby's crying. They want naps and you're trying to teach. But it's still good. And it's nice that they want that English. And it's a nice program for them. You know, I get to meet other young mothers who have little babies like they do, and they can bring the babies with them and that's very important. There is in that same building the Board of Education, Yonkers Board of Education has English classes, but you can't bring your kids with you. Which means these young mothers wouldn't be able to come unless they had someone who would mind the babies and the babies are kind of young to leave them with other people. But this way, they bring them with them and they have little things in the back of the room and they have a woman who takes care of them. They have toys and stuff like that and yet they know their mother is there. And the mothers can learn, they can meet other people. There's coffee after class, so they can have a cup of coffee before they start going home. And they can make friends with other people, who are in the same boat as they are. They drop -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �their children off, some of them were telling me they have kids in kindergarten and pre-K in another school that they bring them to first, so it's not easy. Then they come to the English class. So it's not easy for them; they want to learn. That makes it nice being with them. They're a nice group of women. How does the mission of the Sisters of Charity relate to my work? Well, education has always been mission of the Sisters of Charity. So I'm walking in the footsteps of Elizabeth (Mother Seton). And I never wanted to teach older kids. The oldest grade I ever taught was fourth grade for one year. But I wasn't happy with it, that didn't have anything to do with the kids. But I like the spontaneity of the little ones. They're funny, they give you a good laugh every day. Not maybe when you're in the room, but later when you think about it, so that was funny. So I would say, yes, that is the mission of the Sisters of Charity to be in education. And you meet a lot of fine teachers and parents, aside from the kids, so all those relationships are good. When I entered President John F. Kennedy was the President. As a matter of fact, I was only a postulant a couple of months. He was assassinated in November of 1963. We had no TV but they brought a TV into the novitiate room so we could see all the news reports on that. It was also the time Lyndon B. Johnson then of course, took over for him. They gave him the oath in Air Force One. And they didn't have a Bible with them. So they used the St. Joseph's missal, which must have belonged to President Kennedy, because who else would have a Catholic missal in the plane? That's what they used. It was also the years of Martin Luther King, when he had the March on Washington, 250,000. And he gave the 'I Have a Dream' speech. So I was here for that. It was the year that the cassette tape recorder was introduced, larger than that one that you have, but that was like a big innovation to have a cassette tape player. So that was part of the history. Angelica Bullock 29:10 There was a lot going on. Sr. Pat Quinn 31:13 There was a lot going on. And then after that we had the Vietnam War. Yeah, a lot going on. Angelica Bullock 31:19 Did you feel all that stuff going on? Did you feel like you were keeping up with everything current? Or did you feel like you were kind of behind because you were... Sr. Pat Quinn 31:32 We were behind because we were in the novitiate. And the only time we would get to newspapers, was when we took the garbage out and we lined the garbage can with newspapers, but you might not be able to read recent news. Who knows when you got those papers may have been sitting there for months, but at least you could read something while you were lining the garbage can. That was how we got our news. Because we didn't have TV or radio. No. If visitors came, like my mother came for a visit and she said something about, "The Beatles have arrived." I thought it was the bugs. The Beatles. I didn't know what she was talking about. It was the strangest thing. The Beatles have arrived. I said, "What is that?" And she said, "Oh, it's a singing group." We didn't know any of that. No, because you were really closed off. -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �However, we did have the World's Fair in let me see, '64. I was a first-year novice. We didn't expect that they would let us go because the first year of novitiate was like cloistering. But we got to go. We went on buses and we had a wonderful time. I remember being there with my mother, my father, my twin brother. I can't remember if my other older brother was there, he may have been. But I know my twin was there. And we had a great time at the World's Fair, wonderful. Part of it was that we just didn't expect, we figured everyone else would go, but we won't be able to go. So things were constantly changing. They were new surprises all the time. Angelica Bullock 33:31 Was it hard to keep up with all of the changes in the outside world, and then also any in your community or were you just used to it? Did it not seem unusual? Sr. Pat Quinn 33:44 Well, we didn't really keep up with the outside world. There was no way without TV, radio and newspapers. You know, unless you heard, as they say, from visitors or something, you know, we were cloistered in that way. Unless somebody mentioned that they heard this or they heard that. You know, you didn't really know. Angelica Bullock 34:12 How did you feel about that? Sr. Pat Quinn 34:16 Looking back I think we just didn't expect that we would be hear what was happening. You knew there were no TVs and no radios, you know. So you just, you know, lived each day. We had our studies to do, we were going over to the college for courses. And that was a new thing also that we took classes with the girls and the college. That was new. Of course, it was hard because we had to do that work, but we were on a very different schedule than the girls. We had a regular regimen and at nighttime, we had a study hour. Well, you know all the work you have to do in college. You had more free time when you were in the juniory. I remember going over to the Castle (Font Hill at Mount Saint Vincent), it was the library at the time. And I was taking Shakespeare, a course in Shakespeare, and they had all the tapes over there. And you could sit in the library and listen to the tape while you were reading it, which made more sense to me than anything, and that was really nice. Then they couldn't use that library anymore. I think the building itself, the structure, I guess, was not safe to have a lot of people in it. But in those days, that was the library and it was nice. You know, but you had to keep up with your classwork. And then we had other duties that we were doing, so you didn't have an awful lot of time when it was study time. You have to really try to put your mind to it. I already mentioned that I have a twin brother, Mike. That was always an Irish joke. There were always jokes about Pat and Mike. And that's what we are, Pat and Mike. I don't see him often because he's in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I enjoy, I love being a Sister of Charity. I love seeing and meeting and being with a dedicated and fine group of women who have an extraordinary history. -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Patricia Quinn, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) Location The location of the interview Mount Saint Vincent, Bronx, New York Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Quinn, Sister Patricia, SC, Interview Subject The topic of the resource Quinn, Patricia, SC Interview, Oral History Description An account of the resource Inspired by her cousin Sr. John Carmel Dunne, her sponsor in the Community, Sr. Patricia Quinn details her life as a Sister of Charity of New York from her early experiences as a postulant and novice. Sr. Patricia was an elementary school teacher for over 50 years and during her retirement, continues to tutor at St. Peter and Paul School and at Casa de Esperanza in Yonkers, N.Y. Sr. Patricia earned a Master's degree in Teaching and in Religious Education. Sr. Patricia's love of learning and teaching young children is evident in the stories she relates about her teachers and her students. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Quinn, Patricia, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/26/2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Quinn, Sister Patricia, Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York Education Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/0b2ba40b59f156ba80c0035e1cee9a35.jpg 9e48e6e5ae5a0edab0ec393cca52999d https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/843d340d99d6b78cb02f51eec98710b7.pdf 610021b0f37d06f00f104522ab70dc5e PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Ellen Quirke, SC Tuessday, October 15, 2019, 1:32PM • 42:27 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is October 15th, 2019. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. The interviewee is Sister Ellen Quirke. We are at the Kittay (nursing home, Bronx, N.Y.) apartments. And it is about 3:15 in the afternoon. Sr. Ellen, can you please state your full name. Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:24 Sr. Ellen Quirke. Angelica Bullock 00:26 And your religious name? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:29 Sr. Ellen Marie Quirke. Angelica Bullock 00:33 What is your age currently? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:36 I'm ninety-two years old. Angelica Bullock 00:40 And what date did you enter the congregation? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:42 September 8, 1945. Angelica Bullock 00:46 What was your age at that time? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:49 Seventeen. Excuse me no, I was eighteen. Angelica Bullock 00:53 About how many years have you been in the congregation? Sr. Ellen Quirke 00:57 Seventy some-odd years. -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 01:01 Now I would just like to know a little bit to talk about some general information concerning your family life. So where were you born? Sr. Ellen Quirke 01:11 I was born in Manhattan, in New York City, to Mr. and Mrs. Quirke, Helen O'Connell and John Quirke, and I had three brothers, Jack, Neil and Bud. And I was the only girl. I was the third oldest of the four of us. Angelica Bullock 01:38 And where were your parents born? Where were their place of origin? Sr. Ellen Quirke 01:43 They were both from Ireland County, Abbeyfield, County Limerick. Angelica Bullock 01:47 Do you have family members and religious life? Do you have any other family members...? Sr. Ellen Quirke 01:53 One brother who was a Jesuit, Neil was a Jesuit. He died in 1968 and another brother. had been a Christian brother and he left the order and married. That was my brother James, my younger brother. My oldest brother Jack died when he was 23. Angelica Bullock 02:25 Besides your two brothers, did you have any other family members in religious life, maybe in Ireland? Sr. Ellen Quirke 02:31 Here in this country, I had another cousin who was another Jesuit. Same time as my brother Neil, Bob O'Connell. Angelica Bullock 02:43 What were the schools that you attended? What grammar school and high school? Sr. Ellen Quirke 02:48 Incarnation Grammar School and Holy Cross Academy. Angelica Bullock 02:54 Were those schools run by the Sisters of Charity? Sr. Ellen Quirke 02:58 Both of them were yes. They both were. Angelica Bullock 03:01 And why did you attend those two schools? -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:07 My mother wanted me to go. Angelica Bullock 03:11 Why did you join the Sisters of Charity of the New York? Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:16 I was very interested in Damien the Leper. Reading his biography, and I just wanted to be able to help people. He was a priest who worked in Molokai down in the Hawaiian Islands. Worked with the lepers down there. Angelica Bullock 03:36 How did you hear about him? Did you hear about him in school? Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:39 Yeah, yes. In school. During religion classes. Angelica Bullock 03:47 Was he a priest? Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:48 Yes. Angelica Bullock 03:52 Did you think you are going to work with people with leprosy or did you just... Sr. Ellen Quirke 03:56 No, I thought more like missionary things. Angelica Bullock 04:02 You said you joined when you were 18 years old? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:05 Yes. Angelica Bullock 04:08 How did your family feel about you joining? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:11 Fine, there was no problem with them? For the most part, the Irish are really proud to have religious in the family. -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 04:21 Can you talk a little bit about the process of becoming a sister? Do you remember anything that stands out? Maybe first day of joining or...? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:31 No, not particularly? No. Angelica Bullock 04:35 Do you remember your sponsor? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:38 Yes. She was my eighth grade teacher. Angelica Bullock 04:47 Do you remember her name? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:49 Yes, Sr. Marguerite. Angelica Bullock 04:51 Would you like to talk a little bit about your life as a novice and a postulant? Sr. Ellen Quirke 04:57 It wasn't really remarkable at all. I kind of went along with the rules and regulations were. What I found hard was the silence and the walking in lines. I found that very difficult. Angelica Bullock 05:16 When did you have to be silent? Were there just certain times during the day? Sr. Ellen Quirke 05:20 Oh, yes, yes. Angelica Bullock 05:25 What would happen if you weren't silent? So, if you wanted to talk to someone... Sr. Ellen Quirke 05:30 Well, you'd be embarrassed in front of the other people because you know it was a rule, to keep silence and you wanted to keep the rules if you're going to stay in the convent. Angelica Bullock 05:40 Can you think of anyone at that time who broke the rules? -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 05:44 No. Angelica Bullock 05:45 Everyone mostly... Sr. Ellen Quirke 05:46 No, pretty much everybody kind of went along with it pretty much. Nobody stands out because having broken the rule. They wouldn't have stayed, I don't think Angelica Bullock 06:03 How many people have joined with you? Like how many people were in your ... Sr. Ellen Quirke 06:06 I think there might have been around twenty-four, twenty-two, twenty-four. I'm the last one left of that crowd. All the others have died. Angelica Bullock 06:24 Did you know any of the girls before your joined? Were they in your high school or in your neighborhood? Sr. Ellen Quirke 06:32 Oh, yes. One of my friends lived next door to me. She was born next door to me. And she entered too. I had some of my high school friends enter but they entered later on not at the same time. Angelica Bullock 06:51 Okay. And did that comfort you knowing that you knew people already going in with you? Sr. Ellen Quirke 06:59 I don't remember it comforting me at the time, but I guess it must have. Yes. How did you feel joining? Were you nervous? Were you excited? I can't say I was excited because I forget there was some popular song that was going on at that time was right when WWII was over, just over. And I was going the night before out with my friends and we were going on a sentimental journey; it wasn't so sentimental. But I was nervous the night before. Angelica Bullock 07:36 When you enter at eighteen, times have changed so much, eighteen now is considered very young. But when you were eighteen are you considered an adult, did you feel like you were an adult? Sr. Ellen Quirke 07:51 Well, boys could go into the service; they could be drafted. That was the WWII. So, we weren't considered young, we weren't considered old, but we weren't youngsters. -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 08:08 Did you have any friends or know people who were eighteen that were at the time getting married or.. Sr. Ellen Quirke 08:16 No, I didn't know anybody, no. Angelica Bullock 08:18 So, if you weren't going to be a Sister, what did other people do at the age of eighteen, that were eighteen-year-old girls? Sr. Ellen Quirke 08:29 They mostly went to work at General Motors or the New York Telephone company, or in the bank, Manufacturers Hanover bank. They got jobs. And the boys were away in service then. Angelica Bullock 08:49 Were any of your brothers at the time drafted? Sr. Ellen Quirke 08:54 No. Angelica Bullock 08:55 Do you remember anything about more times than when you were ... Sr. Ellen Quirke 08:59 Oh, I remember an awful lot about it. The blackouts and the fear that we were going to be bombed and that the Japanese boats were in the ocean, we were down at the beach. Always afraid of being bombed. We'd have the blackouts. And then seeing the stars on the window with the mothers who lost their sons afterwards. We were living in apartment houses. They'd have their stars on the window and another one had been killed. Angelica Bullock 09:33 What exactly are black-outs? Just like today, no power? Sr. Ellen Quirke 09:39 You had to shut off the electricity. You weren't allowed to put the electricity on because they were afraid the airplanes would come and bomb the building. So, the streetlights went out and they had wardens going around the street to make sure the lights were out. And you had rationing of certain foods you couldn't get unless you had a ration stamp for them. Angelica Bullock 10:01 Since you're so young, does that just seem like a normal life? -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 10:06 No, no, no, no. You knew it wasn't normal. Angelica Bullock 10:13 Is there anything else you remember during that time? Sr. Ellen Quirke 10:17 About the war time? Always hearing, fearing to hear about another boy in the neighborhood who was killed or a father who was killed and you couldn't get all the shoes you wanted. You could only get two pair of shoes a year. Angelica Bullock 10:34 Wow. Sr. Ellen Quirke 10:34 You had to have ration stamps to get them. You didn't have nylon. Nylon was used for parachutes. So, you couldn't get nylon stockings or nylon slips. Angelica Bullock 10:51 And what was your life as a novice and postulant like? I'm going back to that, sorry. Sr. Ellen Quirke 10:57 Well, it was getting to know what the routine was going to be and we were going to school, we were studying at the same time, going to college and getting classes. Angelica Bullock 11:08 Do you remember who the Mother Superior was at the time? Sr. Ellen Quirke 11:11 Yes, Sr. Alphonse Mary [McGinley, 1945-1950] who was a very generous woman, very human. Angelica Bullock 11:22 What made her generous and human? Sr. Ellen Quirke 11:25 That was her nature to be that way. She wasn't rigid. Some of those superiors could be very rigid. Angelica Bullock 11:37 What was your relationship with the Mother Superior? Did you see her every day? Or was it more of like she was there, but you didn't really have contact with her. Sr. Ellen Quirke 11:50 She was there. We knew she was there. We were conscious of her presence, and sometimes she'd have a class, and we'd be learning things, she'd be teaching us. -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 12:03 Do you remember the name of the Mother General at the time? Sr. Ellen Quirke 12:08 There were a couple of when I entered it was Mother Berchmans [Mother Mary Berchmans Reed, 1948-1954] was the second. I didn't know her at all. I knew Berchmans, but I didn't know Josephine [Mother Mary Josephine Taaffe, 1941-1948]. Angelica Bullock 12:23 During that time, how did you interact with the other girls who were joining? Did you get to talk to them? Sr. Ellen Quirke 12:30 Oh surely, yes. Angelica Bullock 12:34 Did you all live together? Sr. Ellen Quirke 12:36 Yes, we all lived together. Slept in dorms. And we worked together. And we went to school together. Angelica Bullock 12:50 Other Sisters have mentioned that it took them very long to complete their degrees because they were working. Sr. Ellen Quirke 12:57 Oh, we were teaching at the same time, and going to school on Saturdays. Angelica Bullock 13:01 Okay. Sr. Ellen Quirke 13:03 That changed in the '60s. We all had teaching certificates to teach, and we had to have a certain amount of College before you could teach. Angelica Bullock 13:16 About what age do you think you started teaching then? Sr. Ellen Quirke 13:22 I was twenty. Angelica Bullock 13:26 Do you remember your first mission? -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 13:28 Oh, yes. It was at St. Margaret's in Riverdale, third grade for eight years. So, I got to know the all the children of that time. Angelica Bullock 13:45 Did you always teach the third grade? Sr. Ellen Quirke 13:46 Yes, in St. Margaret's I did. Yes. But I moved around after that. Angelica Bullock 13:54 I'm guessing I haven't heard any sister say so far that they've stayed at that one teaching assignment for that many years. Did you like doing that? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:05 I did, I loved the third grade. That's a great age group of children. Angelica Bullock 14:11 And did you teach girls and boys there? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:14 Yes. I had sixty in a class. Angelica Bullock 14:17 How many? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:18 Sixty. And they were taught. Some places had one hundred. Angelica Bullock 14:26 Did they all fit in a regular size class? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:29 Yes. But the desk was stationary. They weren't moveable desks and chairs. Angelica Bullock 14:40 Did you ever feel overwhelmed teaching sixty children? Sr. Ellen Quirke 14:44 No. No, I liked teaching and I think that's why I liked it. And I liked the kids very much. Angelica Bullock 14:56 Are there any of those students that you still, remember? -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 15:01 Yes. Some of them come to see me. Angelica Bullock 15:06 So, when you first started teaching that first year that you were put in the classroom for third grade, did you expect that's how the situation was going to be? Did you expect that you were going to have 60 students in your class? Sr. Ellen Quirke 15:23 I didn't think about it, I didn' think about it. Because the classes were big when we went to school ourselves. The classes were always big. Angelica Bullock 15:35 During that time, I just think of 60 kids I just think of rowdy... Sr. Ellen Quirke 15:41 No, oh no. They wouldn't dare; they wouldn' dare. Angelica Bullock 15:47 At St. Margaret's all the teachers there were Sisters of Charity? Sr. Ellen Quirke 15:52 No, not all of them. We had lay teachers. Angelica Bullock 15:58 Do you remember any of your other missions? Sr. Ellen Quirke 16:01 Oh yes, of course. Do you want to know them all? Angelica Bullock 16:04 Sure! Sr. Ellen Quirke 16:05 The next year after St. Margaret's, I went down to Holy Name on 97th Street, fourth grade boys. Boys' department at Holy Name, brothers had the boys' department. I was there for a year. That's when we became very aware that the Puerto Ricans were coming into New York City and into the schools. It was the influx of a lot of Puerto Ricans. We had a lot of Puerto Rican children in the school. And the Sisters, I didn't go, but the Sisters went to Puerto Rico in the summertime to learn Spanish. That was around 1956. Angelica Bullock 16:50 And were most of the students then who were coming from Puerto Rico, were they mostly just speaking Spanish? - 10 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 16:56 Yes. A lot of them were. I didn't have them all. They were mostly in the first grade at the time. They started in the first grade. And I was there for a year and then I went down to Xavier. I had the fourth grade in Xavier. Angelica Bullock 17:17 And was that co-ed or just boys? Sr. Ellen Quirke 17:19 Now in Xavier it was boys and girls. Smaller class. I believe around thirty-five. And then I went one year there and then I went to St. Agnes' to the seventh grade. Angelica Bullock 17:22 Oh, okay. Seventh grade? Sr. Ellen Quirke 17:39 Loved it, loved it. I learned so much in being with the children younger and then when they get older and then older; you got older with them. And you knew how to deal with the older ones. Weren't sarcastic. Of course, they understood it and they knew it then. And I was only there a year and I went to St. Denis in Yonkers, the eighth grade. And I loved the eighth grade. We had a great time together. Angelica Bullock 18:16 And how long were you at St. Denis? Sr. Ellen Quirke 18:17 One year. Angelica Bullock 18:18 One year? Sr. Ellen Quirke 18:20 And then I went to Mount Carmel in East Harlem, an Italian neighborhood, with a lot of Puerto Ricans on the fringe of the neighborhood who didn't get along with the Italians at all. And the Italians didn't get along with the Puerto Ricans, I should say. However, that was a good experience, being Principal of the school. Learning different cultures and respecting them. Angelica Bullock 19:14 How was your transition from teacher to principal? Sr. Ellen Quirke 19:18 It was fine. I was ready for it. - 11 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 19:30 Mount Carmel, was that run by the Sisters of Charity? Sr. Ellen Quirke 19:33 Yes, yes. All the schools were that I mentioned. Angelica Bullock 19:39 Were the teachers there mostly Sisters or lay or a mixture? Sr. Ellen Quirke 19:44 No, we had lay teachers, we had quite a few lay teachers. The one that was there sent me that package from David's [mail order dessert company]. She came to teach the fourth grade there. Angelica Bullock 20:03 How long were you at Mount Carmel? Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:05 Three years. Angelica Bullock 20:13 I'm looking at this timeline ... Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:16 We are up to 1960. Angelica Bullock 20:18 Okay! Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:20 '61 to '64. That's when I was at Mt. Carmel. Angelica Bullock 20:29 Then where did you go after Mt. Carmel? Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:31 '64 to '69, Mount Saint Vincent. We had juniorate. Angelica Bullock 20:43 Can you describe what that is? Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:46 It's a formation program, after the novitiate. - 12 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 20:53 And what was your... Sr. Ellen Quirke 20:54 The Sisters were going; I was in charge; I was the boss. I was the Superior. And they were studying at the time too, studying in college. So, it was further introduction to religious life for them and going, learning about the missions and visiting different places where the Sisters worked. The roaring '60s, and all the changes were taking place in the Church and in religious life, like losing the habit, changing the habit, and wearing regular clothes and all of that. Angelica Bullock 21:45 And how did you feel about all the changes that were happening? Sr. Ellen Quirke 21:49 Oh, I just loved them. I was ready for them. And I learned a lot from the young people. They taught me a lot. They didn't know they were teaching me, but they were. Angelica Bullock 22:03 Do you remember when you changed from the habit? What year or so? Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:14 1969. My mother was so disappointed when she saw me with gray hair. Because she had had the same problem. She didn't see the gray hair before because we had the hats on. Angelica Bullock 22:31 Oh, I see. So then, how old were you about in 1969? Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:38 You figure it out. Angelica Bullock 22:39 Okay! Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:42 Forty-three. Angelica Bullock 22:49 You had gray hair at forty-three? Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:52 Oh, yes. I had it earlier than that. Angelica Bullock 22:55 Did your mom have gray hair too at a young age? - 13 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 22:57 Yes, she was young. She used peroxide one day and my father nearly killed her when he came home for it. It was awful when she used peroxide; they didn't have the dyes they have today. Angelica Bullock 23:11 There's just one point where there's no people that are wearing a habit. And then they’re wearing a modified veil and then... Sr. Ellen Quirke 23:23 That was while I was in the juniorate they started doing that. The postulants, the novices, the young sisters were doing the modified veil. Angelica Bullock 23:34 Why the change from the habit to the modified veil was that... Sr. Ellen Quirke 23:41 It was just doing it gradually. It was just gradual. Some Communities did; one Community that I know of, she went from the habit to the dress, immediately. They didn't do in-between. We did a lot of the inbetween. We started with the shoes and the stockings, and then the length of the skirt, the habit, the hat changed to the veil. It took long; they should have done it all at once and then it would have been over with. Angelica Bullock 24:16 And who decided these changes and habit… Sr. Ellen Quirke 24:21 From the habit? Well, that was a little part of the movement that was going on in the church about all the changes. And when they started talking about all different kinds of changes that were going on. They talked about religious life, that it wasn't necessary to be wearing these kinds of clothes that made yourself so different from everybody else. Angelica Bullock 24:44 And besides habits, do you remember the other changes that were happening during that time in the Church? Sr. Ellen Quirke 24:58 Really, a lot was changed. A habit was only a symbol of all the changes that were going on. I mean, it could even start with an attitude toward God and learning more about theology and the meaning of this, and that caused the changes. Angelica Bullock 25:20 This was also a time when a lot of people weren't leaving, maybe that was a little bit later. - 14 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 25:29 No, they were leaving at that time. Angelica Bullock 25:31 Okay, they were leaving. How did you feel about that? Sr. Ellen Quirke 25:37 It was very difficult, because your friends, some of your friends were leaving. And it was a testing time for your own vocation. Angelica Bullock 25:50 Were there any points during that time when you began or at any point really, when you began to question if you wanted to be in Sister or did that never happen? Sr. Ellen Quirke 26:06 I'm sure it went on. You would be a stone if you didn't think of anything and wonder sometime what was going on. Yes. Angelica Bullock 26:22 Were there ever feelings of contention with people leaving or did you feel happy for them? Sr. Ellen Quirke 26:28 Oh, it was very difficult when they left. It's very difficult to see people leaving. And it was shocking when it first started. It was very shocking because that never happened. One person would leave in five years. So, do you want to go on with the rest of my life? Angelica Bullock 26:58 Yes. Sorry, I had you staying in '69 for a long time. Okay. And where did you go... Sr. Ellen Quirke 27:06 Well that was an important part of my life, very important. Angelica Bullock 27:11 And where were you after Mount Saint Vincent? Sr. Ellen Quirke 27:15 In '69 I went to the Foundling and worked for Foundling [The New York Foundling]. I went into social work after Foundling. I went to Fordham to study social work and worked at Jacoby Hospital for a year in the rehab department. Angelica Bullock 27:45 What made you switch from going to ... - 15 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 27:48 Well, I had been dealing with older women and I wasn't qualified for grammar school, elementary school teaching and I didn't want to go back to teaching elementary school. So, I went into social work, studied at Fordham, social work. Angelica Bullock 28:10 And did you like your time at Fordham? Oh, yes, yes. Sr. Ellen Quirke 28:23 I graduated in '72 and then I went to work at St. Joseph's Hospital in Yonkers in the mental health clinic. Angelica Bullock 28:34 How long were you at St. Joseph's? Sr. Ellen Quirke 28:36 I was there for four years doing counseling and group work. And then in '76 I went to St Vincent's Hospital, worked with the homebound elderly. Angelica Bullock 29:03 And this was the St. Vincent's in Manhattan? Sr. Ellen Quirke 29:06 Yes, Manhattan. Community Medicine. We had this program for the homebound elderly where we went to visit people in their own apartments, with a doctor and a nurse. Angelica Bullock 29:22 Can you talk a little bit more about that? I've seen in the archives, the Community Medicine part. That's with Dr. Brickner? Sr. Ellen Quirke 29:30 Yes. I worked with him and Sr. Teresita [Duque], she was the nurse. Dr. Brickner wasn't the only doctor; we had all the resident doctors would go out from the Battery up to 34th street, from the River to 5th Avenue. Got to know the whole neighborhood, elevator apartments and walk-up apartment. Apartments where they had bathtubs in the kitchen; they were that old. Angelica Bullock 29:38 How was that experience, being a part of Community Medicine and actually going out into the community instead of them coming to you? Sr. Ellen Quirke 30:11 I loved it; I loved it. A lot of walking and meeting a lot of different people, different people, different kinds of people. - 16 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 30:19 What did a normal day for you look like at St. Vincent's? Sr. Ellen Quirke 30:24 Oh, you'd have meetings in the morning, find out who you were going to go out to see. Who you were visiting and who you thought needed to have you go because you needed to provide services for the older people. Find out about their rent or if somebody was bothering them. The family was involved. They needed help, assistance. They needed to get money from the bank. They needed the groceries. Angelica Bullock 30:27 Were most of the homebound elderly that you were visiting. Did they live by themselves? Sr. Ellen Quirke 30:59 Some of them lived by themselves. Most of them live by themselves. And they didn't want to go to a nursing home, tried to keep them out of the nursing home so they could stay in their own homes. Angelica Bullock 31:10 Were nursing homes popular back then? Sr. Ellen Quirke 31:12 No, they still aren't popular. And here I am. When Dr. Brickner found out I was coming here, uhh! Angelica Bullock 31:21 Was he surprised that you were coming here? And what was life like for you working at that hospice program? Sr. Ellen Quirke 31:22 I didn't want it; when I was in the other place. He has since died. But of course, when I was, it was a big joke keeping me out of a nursing home. And then the other department I worked in at St. Vincent's, after I finished in '92, I went to work at the hospice program we had at St. Vincent's. The Supportive Care Program, we called it for people with AIDS. It was hard. It was difficult because you had so many young people dying, and then the nurses were taking care of them needed a lot of support. And the families, I had families, groups for survivors for their relatives and those who had died. After that, I went to work at the senior center four years, St. Malachi's Church Senior Center. Angelica Bullock 32:28 And where was this that was on 47th Street, Sr. Ellen Quirke 32:33 The Actor's Chapel, they called it. Angelica Bullock 32:36 And what did you do there? - 17 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Ellen Quirke 32:37 Social work. The people that came there, they needed things, to be connected to agencies or needed help with their families or whatever. Angelica Bullock 32:51 So, it seems like you had two different careers. Sr. Ellen Quirke 32:55 Yes, three different careers really, because that formation work, that was different. Angelica Bullock 33:01 Do you think that the three different careers were all at different points of your life? So that's why it made sense. Sr. Ellen Quirke 33:08 No, no, no, I didn't think of that. Well, the experience of the first led me to the second and led me to the third. - 18 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Quirke, Sister Ellen Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Location The location of the interview The New Jewish Home, Kittay Senior Apartments Bronx, New York Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Quirke, Sister Ellen, SC Oral History Description An account of the resource Sr. Ellen Quirke discusses her journey as a Sister of Charity of New York encompassing two distinct ministries in teaching and social work. Sr. Ellen describes the changing needs of bilingual students in New York City during the 1960s-1970s and her venture into geriatric health care in the pioneering Department of Community Medicine at St. Vincent's Hospital in Greenwich Village. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 15 October 2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon, Transcriber, Editor Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York Subject The topic of the resource Sister Ellen Quirke, SC Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/3aebb8db442ada8cc6b49c8a8cf0f041.jpg cc9e1308e4aa6af96f5c2522c70cd4f4 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/9a52d17af0a4058316c26739513c87b9.pdf e3d7695e39acdac83d1cb4a5c0b46d91 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Claire E. Regan, SC Thursday, 7/30/19 1:32PM • 42:27 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is July 30th, 2019. My name is Angelica Bullock and I'm interviewing Sr. Claire Regan. We are in Sr. Claire's office right now in LeGras [Sisters of Charity Center Administration Building]. Will you state your full name and your religious name? Sr. Claire E. Regan 00:22 Claire E. Regan. I use the 'E' because there's another Claire Regan in Community so I started using the 'E'. Claire E. Regan and that is also my given name. Angelica Bullock 00:37 What is your current age now? Sr. Claire E. Regan 00:39 Sixty-five. Angelica Bullock 00:44 When did you enter the congregation and how old are you? Sr. Claire E. Regan 00:49 I entered at age twenty-nine and it was 1982. Angelica Bullock 00:56 And how many years have you been in the Congregation? Sr. Claire E. Regan 01:00 It will be thirty-seven years in September. Angelica Bullock 01:05 So first we're going to talk a little bit about your family life. Where were you born and where did you grow up? Sr. Claire E. Regan 01:12 I was born in the South Bronx and baptized in St. Luke's Church. And then my family moved when I was an infant to the projects in East Harlem on 99th Street, the Carver houses and we were parishioners of St. Francis DeSales Parish. I went to St. Francis DeSales school for elementary school. -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 01:44 And where did you go for high school? Was it an elementary kindergarten through eighth grade? Sr. Claire E. Regan 01:52 High school, I went to the Bronx High School of Science in the Bronx. Angelica Bullock 02:00 Can you tell me a little bit about your parents, their name, their place of origin, their occupation? Sr. Claire Regan 02:09 My father was Peter Regan. And he was born in County, Cork, Ireland, in 1904. He died in 1980 at age 76. I was 27. My mother was Catherine Boyle Regan, like Elizabeth Boyle, which always kind of tickled me. So, my mother was Catherine Boyle Regan. And she was born in Bayonne, New Jersey of Irish parents, who emigrated here and settled in New Jersey. Angelica Bullock 02:53 Do you know how they met? Sr. Claire E. Regan 02:55 Yes, my father was a boarder in the house. My mother's Aunt had a boarding house, and my father was a boarder there. And my mother would help prepare meals on Sundays for the men. And she met my father. Angelica Bullock 03:14 Do you have any siblings? Sr. Claire E. Regan 03:16 Yes, I had four siblings. Two of my brothers have pre-deceased me. Daniel, Peter, Daniel deceased at age sixty-two, Peter deceased at age fifty-one. I have a sister Kathy. She's currently age sixty-nine and a twin brother James. Angelica Bullock 03:42 And are any of your siblings in religious life? Sr. Claire E. Regan 03:45 No. No one in the family ever was. No. Angelica Bullock 03:52 And where did you go to college? -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Claire E. Regan 03:56 I started at NYU [New York University] as pre-med. I dropped out after my second year. I think organic chemistry was my downfall. I did not do well on the early testing and I just dropped out from NYU. Plus it was the days of pot and hippies and free love and all that kind of environment in the Village. I wasn't all that comfortable with it at the time. So, I dropped out and really felt I needed to make a living to earn my lifestyle, earn my way. I recently moved into an apartment with my sister and paying rent and the bills while I was getting money part time was not enough. So, I wanted to work full time and make a living, and then financially help my family in some way. Angelica Bullock 04:54 So, what were you doing for work? Sr. Claire E. Regan 04:57 I worked at Blue Cross Blue Shield. I answered telephones for the Dental Claims Department, all kinds of subscriber questions and queries. "Where's my claim?" "Where's my check?" "You paid me the wrong amount." "What are my benefits?" We would hear from dentist subscribers.The group representatives took any and all phone calls for the Dental Department. We also handled the written correspondence to the members when they had questions or issues about a claim payment, whether it was correct or incorrect, what were the benefits that were applied. That kind of thing. Angelica Bullock 05:40 Did you like doing it? Sr. Claire E. Regan 05:42 We got volumes of calls that I did for about five years and I said, "I can't answer another phone call!" Then I wanted to go into the claims examiner claims adjuster side of things because the pressure from the general public, the subscribers, was getting intense. We had more and more contracts coming in, and fewer people to handle the phone volume. And I said, "I'll work on the claims." Because the problems we were getting on the phone, I said if work on the claims side and fix the claims, we won't get half the calls. So, I figured I'll take a promotion and work as a claims adjuster, which I did, but that was boring as heck. After about a year-and-a-half of that, I took a promotion to be a statistical clerk in management services. And I did statistical work management services. And in about a year-and-a-half into that I saw an opportunity to look at graduate education and that the company would sponsor me for a graduate degree which I didn't think I had the chance of a snowball. But my colleagues in the Dental Department said, “If you're going to go on to school, apply for the scholarship and see what happens, but don't just, you know, go on and act like you'll never have the chance.” And I won on the scholarship. So, I was paid my salary and full tuition was paid by the company for two years and I went to Chicago to Northwestern University, the Kellogg School of Management in Evanston, Illinois. And I lived for two years just north of Chicago in Evanston, Illinois. And my degree was in health and human health and hospital services, health and hospital systems management, that's HHS health and hospital systems management. Hospital systems were just beginning at that time. It was a brand new venue and also HMOs [Health Management Organizations] were coming into more of a public awareness. I can't say acceptance, they were still a little -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �experimental in terms of public acceptance, but HMO was becoming a model for the delivery of health care, primary health care especially. So that was the era in which I was getting my graduate degree. Angelica Bullock 08:23 And how old were you approximately when you are getting your graduate degree? Sr. Claire E. Regan 08:28 Twenty-four to twenty-six. Angelica Bullock 08:32 Because you said that at that time you were twenty-four to twenty-six? Sr. Claire E. Regan 08:36 I was twenty-five to twenty-seven. Angelica Bullock 08:38 Twenty-five to twenty-seven. And you joined the Sisters of Charity at 29. Sr. Claire E. Regan 08:49 When I finished, when I came back from my graduate degree, it was 1980. My father died a few months after I came back to New York, and it was after that, that I experienced a sense of a call to vocation. I hadn't much thought about being a nun at all. It was never anything that appealed to me. And certainly, I was on a fast track for the management level, officer level at the corporation. So, this was kind of an unexpected inconvenience, my vocation, my call. But it was done in October, it was maybe about that Thanksgiving that I started to get this idea, did you ever think of being a nun? It was a crazy idea that must be foreign? And I was always faithful going to Church and I helped at my parish. I gave scholarships to young people who were working in the day camp for the summer, I would pay for one or two of those counselors to get the salary paid for them. I was very generous in the collections. I was active, and it happened that this Sister of Charity came to the parish just at that time when my father died. And she and I were working, and she put me to work on things I've never done before, liturgy planning, some faith sharing. It was something called the renew program. I was like, “I never did that before.” She said, "You can do it, come on, you can do it." "But I've never done this before." "You can do it.” That was Sr. Carol D'Angelo, and she came as a social worker to the parish and was doing outreach to the families in the home. And so, with God's call and inspiration, the question wouldn't go away. Then Sr. Carol, I would meet with her. They started to have some discernment meetings for vocation here at the Mount [Mount Saint Vincent, Bronx, NY]. Once a month, little gatherings of women who might be asking the question, and so I went to those meetings and then I pursued the matter through Sr. Carol's help and contact with the Community and so on. And I say I entered through Mount Carmel. That was the local convent on the 116th street. So, I tell people I entered through Mount Carmel. -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 11:19 So, what did your family think about you joining the Sisters? Especially, what did your mother and your siblings think? Sr. Claire E. Regan 11:30 Yeah, my father was dead at the time. My mother was not happy. She said I was hanging out with that Sr. Carol too much. And I knew it was going to be a difficult conversation. But God inspired me and I had the answer. I said, “You know, Mom, if there's anybody to blame, it's you and dad.” She didn't have an answer for that. So God spared me, that really quieted her down but, she wanted to have grandchildren and I was going to be the one. So anyway, after my first year, when I was entering novitiate, my mother came to me and said, I see that you're happy and so on. But she wasn't at the beginning. Angelica Bullock 12:14 What did your siblings think? Sr. Claire E. Regan 12:17 I was crazy. "And what are you doing? What? Do what? Become..." I mean, my friends, my siblings. My sister tells me that she went to my mother and said, "Can you believe this thing that she's doing?" And my mother said, "You know, she was always different. Even as a little kid." I would always go to the little religious article store we had in the neighborhood and buy those holy cards for birthday gifts and little statues and rosaries, Bibles, kind of little religious articles for anybody's birthday or my parent’s anniversary, something for the house. So, my mother said to my sister, in these offhanded conversations, when I guess they were trying to figure me out, said, “You know, she always was a little different." So that's kind of where I guess they came to terms with it. I was a little different, I was naughty. Angelica Bullock 13:11 And how did you feel entering at the age of twenty-nine? Sr. Claire E. Regan 13:16 I was giving up a lot. I didn't own a car or a home, but I was giving up my credit cards, my bank accounts, my career path. That was the biggest thing. I was giving up my career path, my apartment, my living independently for nine years. I mean, this was a big experiment. It was a big experiment. It was a big mystery and I had to let go of a lot but a lot of it also was that sense of the career path and where I was headed, and then this other was over here, a redirection. Angelica Bullock 13:58 What was your first mission working with the Sisters? Sr. Claire E. Regan 14:02 As a candidate, I served at St. Vincent's Hospital as an administrative resident. And that's like a medical residency but in administration. It's called administrative resident. So I rotated through various departments in the hospital. I got to know the Sisters at the hospital. I got to know the administrative issues and the staffing and the problems of the largest, large Catholic institution. -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 14:31 A question that I've been asking other Sisters, is the ability to see God in their mission. A question I have for you is when you were working in there, did you see God in the work that you were doing? Was that something you were concerned with? I guess it's not really... Sr. Claire E. Regan 14:51 Oh, no, I've struggled. I struggled with the politics of healthcare, the reimbursement, the politics, the systemic issues of health care. The word Catholic I remember saying at one time, "Okay, call it Vincent's Hospital. Don't call it St. Vincent's Hospital," because what was happening in the board room or in the administrative venues was not the same dialogue or engagement, mostly male dominated power, conflicted, reimbursement-driven. It was not the same world as the Sisters were inhabiting on the outside, serving the patients and trying to serve patients, patients' families. The patient advocates ombudsman, work in the lab or in the different surfaces of the hospital giving direct service. There was a real conflict at that time in my heart, about the Catholic mission and what was Catholic about this. It didn't feel very different from any other hospital at that time. It didn't feel that way to me coming in. Angelica Bullock 16:07 Is that something that you still feel or has it evolved? Sr. Claire E. Regan 16:13 There aren't Catholic hospitals in New York much anymore. Most of them have been driven out, the reimbursement mechanisms. There are a few of course, St. Joseph's, St. Vincent's, Harrison, and upstate, they're run differently upstate. It's not the same level of unreimbursed free care. It's not the same volume. So I left, then I entered and became a novice. And I did a year of volunteer work at the the Veterans Hospital on Kingsbridge Road. And I loved it. One day a week I was at the information desk, greeting the visitors, told them where they could find whatever they were looking for or give them visitor's passes. Just pass the time of day with the different men coming in. It was mostly men, coming for outpatient services. It was a great environment, it's like a big boys’ club. It was very different, the Veterans Hospital, very different. And then I entered novitiate and took vows. My first two years I worked at St. Joseph's Hospital in South Yonkers as the administrator and I liked that very much. I liked the idea of a community hospital. There was a Sister of Charity running it, Sr. Mary Linehan. It had a wonderful sense of mission, identity in the neighborhood, really had a community hospital mission and sense of itself that I loved and the staff was tremendous. The doctors, the employees, everybody had been there for a long time. It was like a big family. It was nice, I liked that. But I wanted to get back to East Harlem and I did. I went back to work for a home health agency in East Harlem as a client advocate. Angelica Bullock 18:25 And that was for the Littles Sisters of... -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Claire E. Regan 18:27 Little Sisters of the Assumption. And I was in the food pantry. I didn't run the food pantry in terms of ordering the food; Sr.Chris [not a Sister of Charity] did that. But there were two of us. Managed the food pantry, all the advocacy, most of it welfare advocacy, some evictions, applications for public benefits, all kinds of public benefits. Applications, food stamps, Medicaid, Welfare and part of the city-wide coalition of emergency food providers. We were documenting the matters of hunger in East Harlem, and what was causing people to have to come with food emergencies. What were the health impacts of some of those food emergencies, and impacts on children and families in the neighborhood of East Harlem. It was an exciting place to be and we were doing it collaboratively with other churches in the neighborhood who were beginning also to open food pantries. Angelica Bullock 19:34 And did you see the people who were using your services often or was it more...? Sr. Claire E. Regan 19:40 Everyday. Oh, yeah. They were coming every day for food. Angelica Bullock 19:45 And how did that impact your life or your theology or anything? Sr. Claire E. Regan 19:54 There's a quote in Scripture, 'the faithful steward who disperses food from the master's supply.' something like that. But I remember praying on that many a time and being grateful that God had put me in such a significant position to be the faithful steward dispersing the goods from the master supply to those in need. It was a very difficult era in East Harlem. It was 1987 to 1992. The crack epidemic, AIDS was happening, AIDS epidemic, crack cocaine, there were drug wars. I mean, people coming in the agency were either newly arrived undocumented people who have no jobs or have new babies and were trying to get health care for the babies and the mothers. And then you had addicts coming in to try to get some food to sell on the corner. So, we had to kind of be wise stewards of the little we had, so that we would disperse it in the proper way we had to. We had to assess each person differently and individually, but there were people trying to get over who were addicted to substances and things. Then what we tried to do, because we didn't want to pre-judge, we would take the labels off the can and market peas, carrots, potato, you know, but take the labels off the cans so they couldn't be resold. Or that somebody wouldn't be selling it on the corner. Because the clients would come in and say, “Sister, you gave to that guy the other day and he just was selling it on the corner,” so we were hearing it from the people that we were trying to serve that we were being taken advantage of. So, there was this kind of tension in serving in the front lines of the poor community in a drug era and era of crack cocaine and AIDS. That was part of the pain of being someone giving away food as well. It was a terrible heartache, because you didn't want to deprive someone of food if they needed it. So, what we did was mark them, take the labels off the cans or put a hole in the spaghetti box or do something so they would have food but they wouldn't be able to sell it. -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 22:32 Did you get pushback either internally from other Sisters and the Community or externally, family members, friends, about the work you were doing specifically during that time? Did Sisters discuss those? Sr. Claire Regan 22:53 We did. I lived at Mount Carmel at that time then and we did. We were very aware it was a wonderful community. There were ten of us in diverse ministries. So, they were education, employment empowerment with Grace Institute, parish work in inner city communities, parishes, nursing, there were different careers and occupations and a few of the Sisters worked at the agency with me teaching GED and whatever. So, we were very committed to the neighborhood and to the people. So, there was no pushback. There was all kind of collaboration and support and mutual prayer and conversation at dinner and just good support. It was a wonderful community. Angelica Bullock 23:53 Can you talk a little bit about your time as the director of Elizabeth Seton Housing? Sr. Claire E. Regan 23:59 Well, that taught me not to join a committee. Let's see. So, there was this committee, there was this plan. Sr. Florence Speth had built Fox House [homeless shelter for women and children in Harlem, Manhattan, NY] and wanted to do another building. So, a few of us gathered around her because she wanted to do another rehab. And the building became available and was funded by the state, which we were to call Seton House, at 1991 Lexington Avenue on the corner of 121st street. And as I said it was funded $1.4 million by New York State Homeless Housing Program. And it was permanent housing for formerly homeless families. According to the state rules for funding, the families, and we fought also to have individuals, homeless individuals, we fought for that, had to be homeless for at least eight months. That was tough. I said, "Eight months, they're going to unlearn any good habits they might have had, eight months." I could not get that rule to bend at all. So, with a lot of remediation of the families when they were coming back into the community, to really feel they were welcomed, had places to go for help, had the supportive people around them, it was supportive housing, and we had a food cooperative. We had some health fairs at the place. We tried to have tenant meetings to try to build a sense of community. The food co-op met every month and it was called the Share Program. Attended meetings, so I did that for four-and-one-half years. At that point it was stable, fully tenanted, everything. It was fully tenanted within eight months, seven/eight months, fully tenanted. Documented each case, they had shown that they were in what shelter and they had been in at least eight months. So, you had to have all that documentation for the state. And you had to register the rents, so then it was pretty routine at that point. Help the families with their special needs, register the rents, inspect the apartments. activities of daily life for the mothers that needed some help raising their children. We had a little after school program, Sr. Trinita Flood did a little after school program with the children doing their homework when they'd come home. So, they could come to our place after school and be picked up by their parents at Seton House. -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 27:00 Let's talk about that. Sr. Claire Regan 27:02 The justice work. It started when I was on a poverty [committee] out of one of the assemblies [election of Congregation Officers], there were committees formed and I was on the poverty committee, and you had to be named to that committee. So, Sisters came to us and said, "I want you to serve on the poverty committee." Then they submitted our names and the council formed these particular committees out of assembly, and I was named to the poverty committee; I think there were seven of us. And in the matter of our coming together and the issues of the times, we said we need to be more effective in our work for justice. So, we created justice effectiveness as the position. Now there had always been a social concerns coordinator before that, so it wasn't per se that different, but then again, it was because it was taking our advocacy into a prime motion. In other words, not just a social concerns weekend once a year or a little update in the 'LeGras Bulletin,' [internal weekly publication featuring Community events and administration news] but really, with phone trees and relays, educating the Sisters on the matters and then not telling them how to vote. But, when it was time for a vote in the Congress and informing them much the way network does, informing them there was a significant vote happening in the Legislature or in the United States Congress, and would they call during that week, their representative. The message was sent on behalf of the poor, this is what we want to see happen. Vote against this or vote for it. But it's pretty much you did the education and then the suggested action. Angelica Bullock 28:44 And under what president was this happening was this ...? Sr. Claire E. Regan 28:50 That would have been Clinton [President Bill Clinton, 1993-2001]. A lot of it was under Clinton. Mr. Bush [President George W. Bush, 2001-2009] and the other first Mr. Bush [President George Bush, 1989-1993]. That was the era that I was in. So, welfare reform was a major piece and the national health care reform, Hillary Clinton [First Lady of the United States, 1993-2001] taking the lead on national health care reform. I went to an invitational meeting in Washington that network put together, what would be the platform for Catholic healthcare to put forward. People from all across the country, there were Sisters who were doctors and professors of health, medical schools and people working at mobile health clinics in Appalachia and I was doing my work in East Harlem, there was just so much going on. So national health care reform was really big, a really big issue at the time and Hillary Clinton was pulling all the pieces together. So, this was the Catholic effort to get a platform together. They had doctors against nuclear war, they had all kinds of people at this invitational to Washington, DC and sponsored by network. And we really fleshed out what we wanted to see in that health care and that was three or four days. We fleshed argued out, yes, no, maybe so, why, why not? And do you know when healthcare actually came out in the Obama time, network had a lot to do with getting that passed. And they were held up in that indoctrination series, they were held up for public scrutiny, because they played a significant role in Canadian national health care passed. -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 31:03 Can you explain a little bit what exactly network is? Sr. Claire E. Regan 31:07 Network started in the '70s. It was national health care lobby, Catholic social justice lobby. And it was run by women religious at the time. So, it was a national social justice, Catholic social justice lobby officially registered as lobbyists. Angelica Bullock 31:29 And can you talk about what specifically you and other Sisters were passionate about when it came to healthcare? Sr. Claire E. Regan 31:39 Access for the poor at a reasonable cost. Access was big issue, access. There were so many people with AIDS and drug addicted, and they were not getting any help anywhere, nobody. There was no care for them unless they could pay for it or have insurance. It was really, really, access for the poor and affordability. Angelica Bullock 32:11 I know I'm missing things. Give me one minute. Sr. Claire E. Regan 32:14 I'll give you 5 more minutes. Angelica Bullock 32:16 Do you have anything to add about corporate responsibility? Sr. Claire E. Regan 32:20 Yeah, that was the era of big, big matters of the environment, corporate responsibility. So, the first time I ever heard the word Maquiladora. I went to the first meeting that I went to, and they kept talking about Maquiladora, Maquiladora. And what is that an endangered animal or something? I didn't know what a Maquiladora was. M-A-Q-U-I-L-A-D-O-R-A. It was a factory across the border. And they were using poor Mexicans to make products for Americans and then ship them across the border. So. they were paying no wages and selling high profits in the United States, so it was this whole sense of justice for the Maquiladoras. Well, I thought it was an endangered species, some fur-bearing animal. You know, was funny, my very first meeting, I was totally blown out of the water. You go ICCE, Interface Center for Corporate Responsibility, and these are high-powered folks, up to the signs of the times, well read, talking justice, bang, bang, bang, and it's energizing, but it's also exhausting. But issues of the environment, plastics and chemicals in the water, pollution in the Hudson River was a big matter that we had. Healthcare, the cost of prescription drugs was another area I took a lot of interest in. And then credit access and credit matters, credit cards, lending practices with banks because we're a major banking center here. So, to save money with my budget, I didn't want to travel. - 10 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �I took on healthcare, which was New Jersey-based corporate headquarters, the banks, which were New York based on credit, and credit operations and finance, banking practices, and then the environment. Some of that I took on but I didn't take it on big because those companies were in other parts of the country. Some of the chemical and oil producing, polluting, and they were all around the world, Shell, [Royal Dutch Shell, oil refinery company] those kind of folks. So, I focused more on the pharmaceutical companies, the price of drugs and the banking credit practices and home lending and derivatives and things like that. Angelica Bullock 35:06 I know we're running out of time. I think we have three minutes but, could you discuss a little bit how you and the other Sisters, there was a committee, is that ...? Sr. Claire E. Regan 35:15 The Interfaith Center is a national group, it's a national organization of religious investors. And that's how I first got captured by New Orleans. We went down there and had our annual meeting in New Orleans in 2009. Katrina had hit in 2005. We had our annual conference in 2009. And it took my heart, you know, we were investing in there, we were doing post-disaster investing, looking at it more systemically, post-disaster recovery, and how you finance it and look for justice among the insurance companies and the banks as well as the federal grants mechanisms. So, I went down to New Orleans and went to the different areas and parts of the city and I just fell in love with the city and then the Federation came out with the ministry, the House of Charity, the next year. Actually, the letter came out the next month. So that was June, we had the annual meeting. In July the letter came out inviting Sisters, if they were interested to think about ministry in New Orleans. And I got there, we opened the house January of 2010, and I got there June of 2010. I was there for nine years. Rebuilding was the primary work, volunteer groups doing rebuilding. But I also got involved at peacemaking, working with Mothers who've lost children to violence, that whole sense of community engagement, religious organizing around matters of violence in the city, and then giving bereavement support in my parish to mothers who had lost children in the violence. So that was what I did on the outside. Angelica Bullock 37:21 It kind of seems like there's a transformation. Maybe, but not maybe in your career path where it seems like the work you were previously, most recently doing was more emotional, or more...maybe that's not true. I guess when you're talking about the bereavement counselor. Could you explain maybe... Sr. Claire E. Regan 37:49 I took that training during the days of the AIDS epidemic I took that training because I wanted to help mothers or people coming in who had a family member with AIDS. So that training I had for a long time, but I was applying it in a different circumstance with the violence in New Orleans. I was applying it in a different, in a more concentrated, focused way to a support group of women who were coming together, trying to help each other because they had lost a child to violence. Angelica Bullock 38:27 So, in helping others heal, how or was it a transformative experience for you? I guess helping people through grief. Was it … - 11 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Claire E. Regan 38:48 Rewarding? Well, you have to realize the whole city was screaming, the whole city of New Orleans. So, it was a city in grief; that was part of what called me there. So, I was even in pastoral visiting, there was something that you were touching or hearing or experiencing in the people you met. That was the shared story of Katrina. And it was a new chapter in the city trying to come back. And coming back in ways that people hoped were for the better, which they were in some ways, but they were gentrifying at the same time. Angelica Bullock 39:30 What do you see for the future? New Orleans, maybe in a positive light? Sr. Claire E. Regan 39:39 Oh, yeah, it's positive. And it's wonderful. It's a great place for families for faith, the church in New Orleans is very different than the church in New York. Very pastoral, very committed, going back in families, generations. It's just a whole different reality. New Orleans is a great place. It's got everything going for it. Good food, good music, good people. What more can you need? Angelica Bullock 40:16 Do you have any ending comments that you'd like to add your interview? Sr. Claire E. Regan 40:21 The way I see things going, I met with an associate [lay volunteer working with the Sisters of Charity of New York] last night and our conversation today, the justice agenda is going to take us to new places. So, for instance, the matter of immigration is going to be drawing us physically, emotionally to the madness at the border. You know, we're going to have to get more involved and take little risks. And I think that call to justice for Earth as well, is going to make us put out substance, not just our money, but our lifestyles, behaviors, commitments, relationships, all is going to be rehashed or renewed or made different. Because of what you're looking for is the consistency of your lifestyle with your mission, with the message. And if the message is this time of the Earth, and time of Earth and Earth suffering, as well as the poor suffering economically, ecologically and injustice, ecological injustice. They bear the outcome of people seeking profit at the expense of Earth and the poor suffering, so our mission continues. It will have new armament. Our education, new modes of communication, amplify the message in ways never before. Clinton's daughter Chelsea [daughter of President Bill Clinton and Hilary Clinton] said, "One person can make a movement." Look at Mother Seton, thirty-three sisters in New York when we started. So, you don't need a lot of bodies in this age of communication. You need the heart and the head that come together around the gospel and Christ and the Kingdom. So, it's a great time, right? No lack of challenges. - 12 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai � https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/a74e2d1985f5f5ad9668a16fed3badcf.mp3 0b7a774b5c840c81c077074d4aba61d1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Regan, Claire E., SC Location The location of the interview Louise Le Gras Hall at Mount Saint Vincent, Bronx, New York Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42:27:00 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Regan, Sister Claire E., SC, Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Sister Claire E. Regan, SC Sisters of Charity (New York, N.Y.) Monasticism and religious life of women Health Services Administration St. Vincent's Hospital and Medical Center of New York. Department of Community Medicine Patient representatives AIDS (Disease)--Patients Hurricane Katrina, 2005 Food banks National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America Interfaith Center on Corporate Responsibility Description An account of the resource Inspired by volunteer involvement in her parish, Sr. Claire E. Regan left her career in corporate management prior to entering the Sisters of Charity in 1982, at the age of 29. During her varied ministry experiences, she lobbied regarding food insecurity, homelessness and the need for improved healthcare for the poor. During the challenges of the AIDS epidemic and drug wars of the 1980s-1990s, she served as an administrator in several metropolitan New York hospitals. As Director of Elizabeth Seton Housing and later in post-Katrina New Orleans, Sr. Claire worked with a national organization of religious investors to address accountability for health insurance companies, banks and federal grant mechanisms. Sr. Claire was a Councilor in Leadership at Mount Saint Vincent from 2019-2023. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-30 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Transcriber, Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Regan, Claire E., SC Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York AIDS Healthcare Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/00f7343e2c2e55910bf84a33cb5bc8b0.jpg 41769e07e6efa95b12516b3f81c71dc2 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/26e7b4f1f163e94d0d2153473b875ae2.mp3 3dbf2b325f62f198d34736308140fcc1 https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/bcfc7129da4a20b04a1d5a516af7f9d1.pdf 3a5e53f39589cf74fe6877ba1740c9a3 PDF Text Text Sisters of Charity of New York Interview with Sr. Josephine Rog, SC October 3, 2019: 9:37AM • 35:58 Angelica Bullock 00:00 Today is October 8, 2019. The interviewer is Angelica Bullock. The interviewee is Sister Josephine Marie Rog. The interview is taking place at St. Patrick's Villa in Nanuet, New York. Okay, Sister Josephine, can you please state your full name? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:26 My full name is sister Josephine Maria Rog. I was born under the name of Marilyn Rog. Angelica Bullock 00:34 What is your current age? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:36 My current age is 79. I will be 80 in December. Angelica Bullock 00:42 Do you remember the date that you entered the Congregation? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:45 I entered on September 8, 1957. Angelica Bullock 00:51 And how old were you at the time? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:53 17. Angelica Bullock 00:55 Roughly, how many years have you been in the Congregation? Sr. Josephine Rog 00:59 62. Angelica Bullock 01:02 Okay, so first, we're going to start with a little bit of general information, specifically your family life. So can you tell me where were you born? Sr. Josephine Rog 01:12 I was born in Brooklyn, New York. -1- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 01:15 And is that where you grew up? Sr. Josephine Rog 01:17 Grew up basically, yes, for school, etc. But spent summers and many of the holidays in Connecticut with relatives, mainly cousins, aunts and uncles. Angelica Bullock 01:30 And could you tell us your parents name and their places of origin? Sr. Josephine Rog 01:34 My father's name is Joseph Rog. And my father was born in Connecticut and moved to New York. In his late teens, because of the father's work, he worked for the government and the United States Post Office at that time, and its side work in electronics. After the end of the war, he worked at Newark Airport, with his knowledge in electronics. Angelica Bullock 02:14 And your mother? Sr. Josephine Rog 02:16 My mother's name is Helen Rog, Helen Folcik, and she was really a housewife most of the years. She did work in food service for maybe 10 years in between that. Angelica Bullock 02:38 And do you have any siblings? Sr. Josephine Rog 02:39 I have one brother, 6 years younger. His name is Joseph Rog. Angelica Bullock 02:48 Do you have any family members in religious life? Sr. Josephine Rog 02:51 I had a grand aunt and a grand uncle. The grand aunt was a sister of the Holy Family of Nazareth, a Polish community. She spent her time between the United States and Poland. And my grand uncle was a priest. He was basically from Poland. But he also was pastor of a parish in Pennsylvania, Immaculate Conception or something similar to that. Angelica Bullock 03:26 And was your grand aunt and grand uncle, were they related to your mother or your father? Sr. Josephine Rog 03:32 The paternal side, my father. -2- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 03:35 Were you born into a Catholic family? Sr. Josephine Rog 03:38 Yes. Angelica Bullock 03:39 What parish did you belong to? Sr. Josephine Rog 03:41 At first when I was a baby and young child, I belonged to St. Agnes Parish, Congress Street, Brooklyn. But my life from first grade to graduation and entering the community, was St. Thomas Aquinas Church on Fourth Avenue, Brooklyn. Angelica Bullock 04:05 Okay, so now I'd like to talk a little bit about your education. What grammar school and high school did you attend? Sr. Josephine Rog 04:12 Okay, I attended the School of St. Thomas Aquinas, parish school and graduated from their eighth grade. Angelica Bullock 04:22 And what about high school? Sr. Josephine Rog 04:26 I was very fortunate to be able to get into Bishop McDonnell High School, was a blessing because I didn't have to pay tuition. Angelica Bullock 04:36 And did the Sisters of Charity teach in that school? Sr. Josephine Rog 04:39 Yes, they did. And that is where I met my first Sisters of Charity. If you would like a little story about that meeting, just the idea that I had a young cousin, who was very, very sick and dying. And she was in a Sister of Charity school in Brooklyn. I went every day so that I would relieve the mother so she could go home and cook a meal for the father. And I met Sisters of Charity in that hospital just on a passing. They struck me very deeply. They were very concerned, very loving with my cousin who was unresponsive in the bed. I believe that influence definitely had an impact on me at the time, because I was brought up in my grammar school by the Sisters of St. Joseph, Brentwood, New York. And Sisters of Charity struck me as kindly people. And then when I was in high school, I don't know why but my homeroom sister, a Sister of Charity, Sr. Agnes Carmita (Sheridan), worked very quickly. I arrived in school in September. By October she had me volunteering at St. Joseph's, Willoughby Avenue, the orphanage. Her fast working I think clinched everything. Because at St. Joseph's, I saw the sisters as -3- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �mothers taking care of these children, loving them, washing them, taking care, feeding them in every way. So that was my drawing card. I'm quite sure. Angelica Bullock 06:29 Okay, so now I'd like to talk a little bit more about why you joined in when you joined. So you said you joined when you were 17 years old? Sr. Josephine Rog 06:41 Yes. Angelica Bullock 06:43 And did you need permission since you are 17? How did that work? Sr. Josephine Rog 06:48 Yes, I needed permission. But I was thinking about this a long time before. In seventh grade, I told my mother not my father, that I would like to be a sister, and she objected to it. But she said, “Wait a while, you have a long time to go, you will maybe choose something else.” I always wanted the medical field and to be a doctor and my father was thrilled with that. And when he found out that I wanted to enter religious life, he was not happy. He did not scold me or punish me in any way. He wished me to go to Europe for a year and see how other people live, and that it might mature me a little bit and make me maybe not want to or maybe more so want to go into religious life. I did not wish to do that. And he accepted that not in a very happy way, but without punishing me in any way verbally or physically. And so it worked out that was able to go. Graduated high school in June and went in September to join the Sisters of Charity. Angelica Bullock 08:09 Can you tell us a little bit maybe why your parents were hesitant for you to join? Sr. Josephine Rog 08:18 Well, I think my father, as the only girl in the family and the first born, and I showed some acuity to learning, that I would be able to be an MD (doctor). I think he was kind of set on that. And he bought books and all kinds of things through my old high school. I did very, very well in biology because all that I knew before I even took the class. So I think that was his disappointment. Angelica Bullock 08:49 And can you tell me, what was the process of joining the Sisters of Charity in New York, you're 17... Sr. Josephine Rog 08:57 Right, and since my parents didn't right out any objection, they were going along with it, both of them. My mother was in some ways I know in her heart happy, but not happy for what she considered losing me. But then, of course, my Sister sponsored the Sister who sent me to work at Willoughby Avenue with the children. So quickly as I entered school, became my sponsor, and she brought me to the Mount (Mount Saint Vincent), and we were interviewed. But the mother general at the time mother, Mary Fuller, was not well enough for the interview. So I had to wait for her, to meet her. Now meeting -4- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �her was a strange situation because I was working at the sale, now I'm in high school a junior year not senior year in high school, and I was working at the big sale they had for the community at Grace Institute, New York. And while I was working there, one of the sisters knew that I had to petition to Mother. And my sponsor knew, she was also there. And so what they did was set up two chairs in a room that could not be opened until after the noon hour, because it was the money room, the liquor room, and that kind of thing. They put two chairs in between the boots of the money exchange and the wheel, the money wheel, and that's where I had my interview. And then shortly after that, I received my letter of acceptance so my senior year was all going to the community, basically. Angelica Bullock 10:57 Do you remember anything that happened during the interview? Do you remember any of the questions or do you remember how you felt? Were you nervous? Or... Sr. Josephine Rog 11:09 Maybe the first time that I went to the assistants, I was nervous because I didn't know what was coming, but by the time I met mother at the money wheel and the liquor booth, I did mention the money wheel and liquor booth, I was not nervous. And the question that I remember she asked me so vividly was, aren't you too young? And my answer, I could not believe it, I answered so quickly, “Oh, no mother.” With all that I had done as a camp counselor at camp, at Shoreham with the children and all that, I thought I knew everything. Little did I learn. Angelica Bullock 11:59 We talked a little bit about your family's thoughts about becoming a sister. But did your friends ever express how they felt about you becoming a sister at 17? Sr. Josephine Rog 12:10 My friends were basically other children from Catholic upbringing and most of them were delighted. They got me a little gift, a group of them pitched in and got me a beautiful, miraculous medal to wear. So no, my friends were very happy. My aunts and uncles, some of them were not happy. Some of them thought I was wasting my life, I had so much potential so they said, and they were not happy that I was doing that. Most of the world My grandparents were thrilled. Angelica Bullock 12:55 Do you want to talk a little bit about your life as a novice and your life as a postulant? Anything that comes to mind. Sr. Josephine Rog 13:04 Life in the novitiate, our life was very oriented. And very straightforward, do this this, at this time you did that at that time. I was kind of the one who followed the rule, I didn't really deviate that much, or anything that would bring anything down upon me. So I would say that it just went smoothly. I know it was very tense. during that whole time. I know that and my tension basically came that I had to do everything correct. Otherwise I would be sent out the door. And that was the last thing I wanted. I was desperate to hang-in no matter what happened. So what we had to do, I did and that's it. -5- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 13:51 Okay. And what specifically did you have to do? Do you remember? Just like tasks or... Sr. Josephine Rog 13:58 Yes, tasks, duties that we would be given. Silence at certain times. No running up and down the stairs that's one of the things I always got called down for is running on the stairs because I was always go, go, go, go go. And of course, prayer time we had to be on time, that kind of thing. You know, basically following the rules. When the bell rang, you went to someplace. When the bell rang again you went to someplace else. The duties were not hard. They were all physical duties that I was doing at home, scrubbing and mopping. We never had a scrub on the floor with our knees like they say some of the communities had to do you know, we use mops and pails and brooms and brushes. We didn't have any of the other problems. Our food the same thing. The food was good enough, it was it ample enough, and I didn't have any problem with that. Having to eat everything at home that was on the table no matter whether I liked it or not, even in the years I didn't like spinach I had to drink the juice. So as a result when I came, I was already ready to eat anything put on the table. I never had a problem. Even the tripe soup with little fishes in it! Angelica Bullock 15:29 Did you ever feel homesick at any point? Sr. Josephine Rog 15:33 I have to say I missed my family. I missed our customs, especially at the holiday time because we always were very strict with the Polish customs which were very beautiful and very meaningful. I missed that. But I cannot say that was a sickness that was a missing of something that we did that we are no longer doing however, in the novitiate, they had little surprises for us that made up for some of it. As far as real homesickness goes, I would feel that because I was used to going to all relatives houses all summer, I was away from my actual family, my mom and dad, my brother, and also the fact that I was camp counselor summer after summer after summer for weeks on end. As a result, I also was not with my family. So that homesickness I get over with very, very young. Angelica Bullock 16:37 You mentioned surprises that they gave you. When you were a novice? Sr. Josephine Rog 16:42 Yes. One of the the, I guess one of the things that most of us remember mostly, is the fact that it was it was a surprise. They took us down to a whole big room and it was life sized creche scene of Mary and Joseph in real clothes and the baby in real clothes, and the animals, not real, and the whole thing. And that was something that was like just a total surprise. We were told something was coming, something very nice was coming. But we never told what it was until we were ushered downstairs to the room they had set up. And it just was so beautiful. It stayed with us for me up until today that it was such a beautiful thing. And then they had a nice dinner. And we each got a little gift. I don't remember what it was. It wasn't something big, it wasn't money that's for sure; we couldn't have money. So whatever it was maybe a prayer card or I don't really remember, but we did get a little gift at the table. And then there were prayer services that were very beautiful. The Chapel was fixed up ultra-beautiful and that -6- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �was another beautiful surprise. We were given a free day around the holidays that we could walk anywhere we wanted, go anywhere we wanted, basically within the structure of the novitiate and, you know, be more free. Angelica Bullock 18:22 And what would you do on your free day? Do you remember? Sr. Josephine Rog 18:27 On that free day? Yes. You know, I guess most of us took a little bit extra time in the Chapel because we were not, we went to our prayers, our devotions, but we never had really much time extra. So I know I did that. I know I walked outside, which was a blessing. And when winter Christmas we're not that freezing, you can go outside and you know, could get some good fresh air, and then talk with my fellow novices, which we did not have much time to do. Angelica Bullock 19:08 And how large was your circle? Sr. Josephine Rog 19:13 Oh, we entered on September 8, '57 with 50. Angelica Bullock 19:19 50? Sr. Josephine Rog 19:20 50. 5, 0. Angelica Bullock 19:21 Wow. Sr. Josephine Rog 19:21 The next morning we woke up, one left, so we had 49 for most of the next months. Now after that, a few left one by one, I don't recall when or how many at that time. It is in the 1960s that we lost most. Angelica Bullock 19:47 And how did it feel to be joining with 50 or 49 or how many others, that's a lot of girls. Sr. Josephine Rog 19:58 That;s a lot, yes. Angelica Bullock 20:02 Did that feel more comforting to you or was that just the norm? Sr. Josephine Rog 20:06 -7- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �It was the normal, I knew there would be many and we did not have much time to talk with each other except at our recreation at night. And then you would be in a group and we'd be assigned group, you get your seat so that there was not much communication between them. On a free day, you know, you could talk to them and that was a joy, but we didn't have many of those. Angelica Bullock 20:32 Did you know anyone that joined the same time as you? Sr. Josephine Rog 20:37 I knew two, one was Jane Iannucelli, who was the former President, and the other was Helen, her married name Helen Fitzpatrick; she left. Helen left, after making vows and being on mission. So she was with us quite a few years. Both of us went to high school and graduated together and entered the same day. Angelica Bullock 21:05 Did they tell you beforehand that they were entering? Sr. Josephine Rog 21:09 Yes, yes. Angelica Bullock 21:12 And when did you finally have time to talk to the other sisters? Is that when you became a sister, an official sister? Sr. Josephine Rog 21:22 Yes, yes, after vows and coming on mission, we had more, you know, talking with each other. But even then we weren't allowed to visit the Convent. So it was mostly at meetings, that kind of thing. And then, of course, we became more friendly, like right now, three of us live here, who entered the same day. And so now, you know, really, and one of them I lived with at St. Agatha's for many, many years. So we are, we are friends, putting it that way. We really are. Angelica Bullock 21:59 So how does that feel to you, be with people that you have known, most of your.... Sr. Josephine Rog 22:09 Delightful! One, getting to know her much better, Evyleen Larkin and Sheila Finucane because I've lived with her so long at St. Agatha's, it's just nice not to have to give up that relationship and even at St. Agatha, we really were friends, and we shared the same TV and almost the same living quarters, because there we lived all over, all the different buildings. Angelica Bullock 22:35 So when I think about that, you've known those two sisters for 62 years, I think in the general public people would be surprised. Most people don't have friendships that long. So how do you feel about that? -8- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Sr. Josephine Rog 22:55 I think is a very wonderful thing. However, you have to remember at the beginning, we didn't see much of each other. But then when Sheila came to St. Agatha's, I was already there. So we got very close together. We think the same, you know, we have same goals and that kind of thing so we really hit it off right away. Sister Evyleen, I got to know her a lot better when she was in this house. But, while I was in the other house, but the two houses had a lot of connection, so I got to know her better then and now that I'm living with her, of course, I know her lot better. And it is wonderful to think of all the things we've been through together and now we're reliving to tell it for as long as we live. Angelica Bullock 23:55 When you entered at the age of 17 at that time was it uncommon for a 17 or 18-year-old to be considered an adult, or were you still viewed as a child? I say that as now. Sr. Josephine Rog 24:14 Definitely different from now. I was nine years old, I was babysitting for a newborn infant. Who would put a newborn infant in the hands of a nine year old today. Times were different. We grew up without so much extra things, bought things, we didn't have everything that the children have today. And so we grew up a little older, little harsher side. Happy, happy and wonderful. Nothing wrong with it. But I think we grew up a little bit faster. Angelica Bullock 24:50 So when you enter at 17 that was, you were... Sr. Josephine Rog 24:55 It was acceptable and most of the girls in our group were 17, 18, 19. There may be 2 who were a little bit older and that was the unusual. The older ones were the unusual ones. Angelica Bullock 25:18 How did you feel when you finally received your vows? Or, wait, I don't know the proper terminology. How did you feel? Sr. Josephine Rog 25:29 I really have to say that that was my goal. That's what I really wanted. Above and beyond everything else, it was vows when Vow Day came. For me, it was such a devotional kind of thing. I think I felt making vows in my very being as part of my own soul, because that was what I was wanting more than anything. Angelica Bullock 25:58 And for Vow Day, how does that work? Sr. Josephine Rog 26:02 -9- Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Mother General, Mother Mary in my time, knelt, or maybe she sat on a chair, and we went up to a priedieu and knelt in front of her and said our vows to her into God. Her as the head of the community, that we were vowing our life to, and to God, who is our God. Angelica Bullock 26:26 And did every sister say the same vows? Sr. Josephine Rog 26:29 Yes, with their own name. Angelica Bullock 26:31 And during Vow Day was your family there? Sr. Josephine Rog 26:34 My mother, my father and my two grandmothers. In the novitiate, I had to get special permission to have my grandmothers come on our visit. They were so close to me, I could not have them not come on a visit. And my brother was at the age of 'forget it.' Angelica Bullock 26:54 Do you remember your family's emotions during that day. Sr. Josephine Rog 26:58 They all cried. I don't know about my father but they said my mother was sobbing. And my two grandmothers tears were coming down fully. Both of those grandmothers were born in Poland, as well as my grandfathers. That's why I was brought up so close to the Polish traditions. Angelica Bullock 27:20 So for our last couple of minutes, I'd like for us to talk about your ministries. Sr. Josephine Rog 27:26 I'm going to talk quickly. To my first mission, I was in Sacred Heart, West 51st Street, Hell's Kitchen, very tough neighborhood. Most wonderful children, street wise, language, whoo!, etc. But, heart of gold absolute heart of gold. I love those children. Taught first grade. Most of their families had a family member, mother or father or both, working down in Broadway. They were either dancers or they were theater managers or they had to do with setting-up the skits in the background and all of that for the place. They did a lot of odd jobs. But most of them were from there and they were just very wonderful children. Some were very bright and I sent them to the hospital down the road that had courses for gifted children. So that was that. Okay, from there, I went to St. Agatha Home. I was a group mother for 16 boys, at one point 18 boys, and they were mostly teenagers from 12, 13 up to 16. And that was a wonderful experience. I learned a lot from them. I learned football, I never knew about football, I learned football and just they were rough children, rough. Because they'd been with city children. And the first experience I had going into the cottage, was a boy down the stairs to the playroom and kept telling me I hate nuns. I hate nuns. So I yelled out. "Oh," I said, "David, you are so funny. Come on up and join us." I never had trouble with him again in all the years at the cottage. That was my first. - 10 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �Angelica Bullock 27:26 Can you talk a little bit about the voice the boys that you were mothering like how they got to see St. Agatha Home. Sr. Josephine Rog 29:35 They were court committed. They're usually a member of their family was in jail or on drugs. Possibly, both of them had a problem. Most of them had a visitor on one Sunday a month from the city. But it was a very cold kind of visit. They sat at the table. Basically didn't talk to each other just was there, had the lunch we provided and then off went the parent. It was not a warm situation. A few had a warm situation, but very, very few. They were very responsive. They were grateful for what you did. They were mischievous. They were sexually active which was very hard. And I had a lot of night trouble. I had to get up during the night and check because they would be with each other. The were wonderful in sports. They liked anything I did for them extra. My aunt worked at Schwartz, if you ever remember a Schwartz, and she would get all the cakes that they couldn't use because they were smashed or banged or some icing taken off and she would save that for me. And the boys absolutely loved them. Angelica Bullock 30:54 How did it feel to be their mother? Right? Sr. Josephine Rog 30:58 I got the feeling that from the very, very beginning, knowing that I was the person who meant anything to them in their lifetime, whether they liked me or not, I was still there. I still provided for them. I gave them everything. I got them their food, I got people to cook it or me to cook it. It came from the kitchen or heated up, whatever but I learned that. And after we left, I got a call from one of the boys and all he could say is, "You're the only mother I knew in my life." And that got to me, really got to me. And others would say the same thing not in those words. Angelica Bullock 31:44 And how long did you work at St. Agatha Home? Sr. Josephine Rog 31:48 I worked there in different positions from 1963 to 1982. And I worked 11 years in the cottage with the boys. Or sometimes I was changed to girls, but whatever. Then I worked in the school on the grounds, public school. And then I worked, a public school closed by the way so I had to change jobs. I worked in purchasing at the home. Angelica Bullock 32:22 And did you like your time working there through all the different jobs you had? Sr. Josephine Rog 32:26 Very much, it was a wonderful place. None of us had an easy time because taking care of the children was not easy. We had long walks every day, going from the cottage down to the main building for our prayers and for our meals. We did not eat with the children. And we had to keep our own community so - 11 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai �we came down to the main building. It's a long walk, sometimes very difficult in snow and cold. But nevertheless, we were young and it was wonderful for our health to do that, so it was a plus. The sisters were very good. We were very happy with each other. We had a lot of nice times when we get to meals and that kind of thing. We enjoyed each other's company. Angelica Bullock 32:59 Do you want to talk any more about ministries? Or? Sr. Josephine Rog 33:19 Well, I could say that from St. Agatha Home. I went to the rectory at New Rochelle, St. Gabriel's. Then from there, I could only stay there for a year I asked for a year to go there. I was granted it. I went to Convent of Mary the Queen in Yonkers, with our senior Sisters. And I was there until my mother needed care. So I spent about 30 years there. Angelica Bullock 33:50 And do you remember how you felt when Mary the Queen closed? Sr. Josephine Rog 33:56 Terrible. I didn't know what we were going to do with our Sisters. Even now, I just don't know. They're going to different places and it's very difficult. It's part of the times, it has to be. I know that and I understand that I'm not knocking it or blaming anybody for it. But what I do have to say I had hoped that in our later years, we could all be together and live our community together. And of course that's not working out. However, Kittay (nursing home, Bronx, N.Y.) and ALP (Assisted Living Program, Bronx, N.Y.) worked out beautifully. So I'm grateful for that. And those who are in Cabrini or St. Patrick's, there a little bit beyond that. So you know, maybe it did work out for the best but I'm still sad. And people on the outside when they find out I'm 62 years completed. They say to me, "Are you happy you went to the Sisters of Charity? Wouldn't you have been happy to be a doctor that you wanted to be? Wouldn't you be happier if you got married and had children?" I don't know. Those things are not uppermost in my mind. I'm happy I entered the Sisters of Charity. Am I happy that I entered at 17? Yes, I am. I don't know what would have happened during those years. I don't know what kind of young men I would meet and what we would do when all; I don't know. I may have been naive and gotten into trouble. I don't know, I really don't. I'm very happy. I entered the year I entered and the life we live. There are ups and downs. There are ups and downs in every life. If I had an abusive husband, I would be a wreck. I've never had abuse in community. I know. So yes, I am happy. And certainly my prayer life has brought me closer to our God which we're all trying to do in one way or another. Angelica Bullock 35:53 I think that's a great way to end. Okay, thank you, Sister. - 12 - Transcribed by https://otter.ai � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Josephine Rog, SC Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:58:00 Location The location of the interview St. Patrick Villa, Nanuet, New York Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rog, Josephine, SC, Interview Subject The topic of the resource Rog, Josephine, SC Interview, Oral History Description An account of the resource Sr. Josephine Rog discusses her life as a Sister of Charity of New York. The only girl and first child in her family, her parents hoped she would become a doctor however, accepted her decision to enter the order. Sr. Josephine details the daily experience as a novice at Mount Saint Vincent, and the challenges of teaching in Hell's Kitchen, and caring for orphan boys at St. Agatha Home, Nanuet. She emphasizes the influence of the Sisters in her life from her time as a volunteer at St. Joseph's Orphan Asylum, and the enrichment of her life through the comraderie she enjoys with other members of the Community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rog, Josephine, SC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/3/2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rog, Sister Josephine, SC, Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Sisters of Charity of New York Education Sisters of Charity of New York https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/ad8f06015b467be463a9885813c1dfdd.jpg a735053e8606c2a7c064fd9468d2f3ee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sisters of Charity of New York Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bullock, Angelica Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sugrue, Noreen, SC Location The location of the interview The New Jewish Home, Kittay Senior Apartments, Bronx, New York Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data audio/mp3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 28:52:00 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sugrue, Sister Noreen, SC Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Sugrue, Sister Noreen, SC Description An account of the resource Sr. Noreen Sugrue has shared her reative skills as a teacher, artist and Congregation archivist. She taught elementary grades, spirituality to novices, and art to students of all ages, including one summer in Appalachia and ten summers at the New York Foundling. From 1973-1986 as the Assistant Archivist for the Congregation, she chose a new archives storage location and designed the building space, managed the artifacts in the Elizabeth Seton Museum, and arranged and described the historic materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sugrue, Noreen, SC Bullock, Angelica Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sisters of Charity of New York Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-05-06 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mindy Gordon (Transcriber, Editor) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission for reproduction or quotation must be obtained through written application to: Director of Archives, Sisters of Charity of New York, 6301 Riverdale Avenue, Bronx, New York, 10471. This permission is valid only insofar as the Archives of the Sisters of Charity of New York, as owner or custodian, has any rights in the matter and does not remove the responsibility of the author, editor, and publisher to guard against the infringement of any rights; including copyright, that may be held by others. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav application/pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sugrue, Noreen, SC Oral History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant New York City