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Interviewer:
Interviewee:
Date:
Editor:
Date edited:
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason, SC
Sister Mary Ellen Verdon, SC
January 12, 1988
Sister Noreen Neary, SC
October 23, 2020
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: In the early 1960s, as a response to Pope John XXIII’s appeal
for missionaries to the Third World countries, you volunteered to serve in our first mission in
Bolivia.
Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: That's right.
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: There were three other sisters: Sister Mary Frederick
[Holbrow], Sister Anne James [Connolly] and Sister Grace Lavina [Reilly], who comprised
the first group. Let's begin with you. How did you prepare yourself, educationally, to meet
the needs of the people you were called to serve?
Sister Mary Ellen Verdon:
Well, I speak for my own self, but this really does apply to all of us. We really didn't know
where Bolivia was. First we had to find a map and find where it was. Then it was a matter of
finding out about what Bolivia was. What it meant. And I went to the library. That was the
easiest way to get some idea of who was in Bolivia…what was in Bolivia. What was it all
about?
The next piece was that I did not speak Spanish. And I had a background in French and
Latin, but I had no Spanish. However, I wasn't too sure of how to go about this and then I
find out that none of us spoke Spanish and therefore we were told that arrangements
were made for us to go to a language school in Lima, Peru.
So, what we did, we got some tapes. We had some books, we even played Scrabble and
this was Sister Mary Frederick, Lord have mercy on her, this was her great idea. We
would play Scrabble in Spanish. It was torture for most of us. But, in fact, we played
Scrabble every afternoon on the boat going down to Bolivia. And somewhere along the
line, I found an egg timer. And Sister Mary Frederick said we had to play for ten
minutes. So I used to turn the egg timer. But then we finally got to Peru only to find out
that the language school was only for men. We couldn't go. This was 1963. And when
we went on to Bolivia, we had…arrangements had been made for us to live with
Spanish-speaking sisters while the house we were going to live in, the convent, was being
fixed...being built. And when we got to Coroico, the sisters that we were to live with
were petrified of us, didn't know what to make of us. We were gringos and they were very
a pretty strict community. And it almost took a Papal Mandate that they eat with us, they
recreate with us, they do everything with us. And one of them became our teacher. The
Franciscans supplied the books and then we had class. And that went on for a couple of
1
�months. And little by little, we learned the language and I carried a dictionary, myself, for
almost two years. It became a joke about me and my little dictionary. But it was the only way
to learn the language. You had to be willing to make mistakes and the people laughed, then
that was all right.
But I would say, after two years, I felt very fluent and it didn't matter. I was able to...I was
comfortable in English or in Spanish. But the preparation, to answer your beginning
question, really was nothing. It was...nobody knew what to do. But we survived. Does that
answer your question?
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: Almost. You had a background in nursing...and you had spent
several years at the Hospital of St. Raphael [in New Haven, Connecticut] before you went to
Bolivia. Now, was it possible for you to take time while you were at St. Raphael's to learn
special techniques that perhaps only a doctor would do so that you could better serve the
people in Bolivia?
Sister Mary Ellen Verdon:
You're very right. Sister Louise Anthony [Geronemo], Lord have mercy on her, was very,
very supportive of my going to Bolivia. Arrangements were made for me to work in the
emergency room. And I worked there for a couple of months. Dr. Mark Russell was the
senior resident and he was just so enamored with my going to Bolivia. He taught me so
many things. He taught me how to sew people. He taught me how to do in-depth
examinations. He taught me many, many things which I don't even want to talk about on
public taping, but it was three wonderful months. Wonderful months. And when I finished
there, before I went to Bolivia, he gave me a machete. It was about two and a half feet long
when he gave it to me. And when I left Bolivia, it was about six inches long. It got an awful
lot of use in those years.
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: Am I right in thinking that you even had some experience in
learning procedures in dentistry, like how to extract teeth? Or is that something you
taught yourself?
Sister Mary Ellen Verdon:
No, no, no…what happened was that when we went to Bolivia, there was a dentist from
[Saint Joseph’s Hospital in Paterson, New Jersey]. He volunteered to come down for two
weeks. He came in our first year there and he brought all his own equipment. And, at that
time, I was very young and I…and the world was mine and I could do everything, so he
spent a great deal of time and…he worked all day long. He taught me how to pull teeth and
in the evening, he'd come down and he'd have classes and he'd…which tooth got which
instrument and all this stuff and he left his complete set of instruments…taught me how to
give the anesthesia…taught me all these other things…and in the two weeks that he was
there, he pulled over 700 teeth. And in the time that I was there, I pulled a couple of
thousand teeth.
2
�Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: What about the delivering of babies. Did you ever do that in
Bolivia?
Sister Mary Ellen Verdon:
Yes, I did deliver babies, but not for long because Sister Malwina Anne [Sister Evelyn
Lebiedz] came and she's a midwife. And that's her specialty and she did wonderful
things with setting up classes and doing that kind of stuff.
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: What about the other three sisters? Do you know if they did
anything in particular to get ready to go to Bolivia other than maybe trying to do something
about learning Spanish?
Sister Mary Ellen Verdon:
Well, we all were in the same boat where Spanish was concerned. Sister Mary Frederick
may have had a couple of more words than the rest of us, but none of us spoke Spanish. I
would think Mary Frederick and Anne James most likely gathered catechetical things to use.
Sister Grace, I know, made some arrangements with Saint Joseph's [Hospital] to supply us
with stuff…because that's where she was missioned. But beyond that, no. Not that I know
of. It was getting our things ready. It was trying to learn about the country. And there really
wasn't that much time.
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: About how long after you were accepted to go to Bolivia did
you actually leave?
Sister Mary Ellen Verdon: I would say it could be no more than maybe four months.
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: So that was really a very short time...
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: Before we conclude our conversation today, is there anything
else you would like to say about your eleven years’ experience in Bolivia?
Sister Mary Ellen Verdon:
Well, as you well know, I can go on for hours and hours and hours, but in an attempt to keep
it to the theme of why we're here today, the educational opportunities of the Sisters to
prepare them for their work, I don't think it's fair to present the Bolivian experience relative
to education without introducing later changes. Because, as was said in the beginning, I went
there in 1963, when women couldn't even go to the language school. By 1965, two years
later, that was all changed. Maryknoll had a language school in Cochabamba [Bolivia]. There
was language school with Monsignor lllich in Cuernavaca [Mexico], and this was not just
language, this was society. This was teachings about the society, both spiritually, physically,
economically, anyway you want to talk about it. And these all happened starting about 1965
where men and women went to language school. But also other changes happened then.
From a sense of helping us be able to help people, was the Vatican Council. And granted, in
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�Latin America, we didn't have visions of communities like you have in this country, but there
were still some areas that Vatican II just broke down the walls completely. And this ability
to learn from each other, to share, to grow…one of the Franciscans had a catechetical group,
and he needed ideas of how to do this or that, we found ways to communicate with other
people that were doing this. Like, then we had diocesan meetings. One meeting three/four
days and maybe one day was a retreat day, but the other days…what are you doing about
this, how could we do it better? And if somebody was really good, they presented, they
talked, and they spoke. So, as time went by very rapidly, things changed very rapidly. I just
wanted to get that piece in.
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: Thank you very much.
4
�
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Title
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station
Oral History
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Interviewee
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Verdon, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C.
Interviewer
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Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen
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transcript
Dublin Core
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Title
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Sister Mary Ellen Verdon, S.C. Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Verdon, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C.; Caranavi, Bolivia; Hospital of Saint Raphael, New Haven, CT; missioner; nurse; Saint Joseph Hospital, Paterson, NJ
Description
An account of the resource
Description of Sister's preparation to become a nurse/missioner in Bolivia
Creator
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Verdon, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C.; Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C.
Source
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
January 12, 1998
Contributor
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Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor)
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Format
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Application/pdf
Language
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English
Type
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Oral History
Identifier
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Sister Mary Ellen Verdon, S.C. describes her preparation to become a nurse/missioner in Bolivia
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
January 12, 1998
foreign mission
Healthcare
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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Text
Interviewer:
Interviewee:
Date:
Editor:
Date edited:
Sister Mary Teresa Orbegozo, SC
Sister Teresa Miriam Beschel, SC
January 1980
Sister Noreen Neary, SC
November 30, 2020
Sr. Mary Teresa:
So, Sister, what year did you enter in the community?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
I entered on September 8th, 1922.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
Now, what was the community doing at that time?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
Well, I had been all through grammar school with the Sisters of Charity. And then I was with the
Dominicans at St. Mary's Academy for high school.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
What name do you take as a religious name? What name do you...
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
Well, my name isn't much different from my baptismal name. I was baptized Teresa Maria, but I
asked for the name of Sister Teresa Miriam and it was given to me on Christmas night. At
midnight Mass we received the habit in 1922.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
I understand that you went to China, can you explain a little bit of the mission of China in the
year that you left the United States?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
The call came for volunteers for China through the Passionist priests in [Union City, New
Jersey], who had a mission there at the time, and [Mother Mary Alexandrine Jackson] sent a
letter to all the missions asking for volunteers and telling them what the situation was because
the Sisters of Charity hadn't gone into foreign missions at that time. I was a novice at that time,
so that was 1924. So I had no intention of being interested in going to China. But Sister Marie
Devota Ross, who had been in the novitiate a year before me, had just been professed that year;
she always had the desire of going to the foreign missions. One time I asked her, "How do you
ever expect to get to the foreign missions from the Sisters of Charity?" And she says, "Well, I
always hoped that they'd expand." Then here, right after she was professed, she applied and was
one of the 200 that made the application and she was accepted, that was just a month after she
was professed.
�Sr. Mary Teresa:
So it caught my attention when you said 200 sisters volunteered to go to China…
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
That's right.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
That was a beautiful spirit that they show.
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
And five were accepted. I believe then when they brought the number down some, their names
were put in the chalice before the final selection. And then the selection was Sister Mary Finan
Griffin, who was the supervisor of the operating room in [Saint Elizabeth Hospital in Elizabeth,
New Jersey] and she was the superior. And [Sister Maria Electa McDermott] and Sister Maria
Loretta Halligan, Sister Patricia Rose Hurley, and Sister Marie Devota Ross, they were the first
band that went to China.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
So when do you go, Sister? When do you leave?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
I was in the second band. I was at Convent the summer that word come that Sister Marie Devota
Ross had died of cholera. That was July 29th, 1932. And we had been corresponding and she'd
say, "When are you coming to China?" And I would just say, "Oh, sometime." When she died, I
said, "Well, I better at least make an effort." So right while I was at Convent that summer, I
wrote a letter volunteering to go to China, but there was no answer. And in October a letter went
out again, asking for volunteers. I knew I had volunteered earlier, so I did nothing about it. But
the week before Christmas, I got a special delivery letter that said I was accepted, and we went in
January, the end of January we left Convent.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
How many of you went?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
Five of us went then, and that was Sister Agnes Paula Conefrey, Sister Marie Sebastian Curley,
Sister Alma Maria Gilmartin, Sister Mary Carita Pendergast and myself. Sister Electa had been
home recuperating from an illness and she was made the sixth sister on our trip to China. It was
her second trip.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
What kind of ministry you had in China?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
�Well, they were already established by the first group of sisters. There had been an orphanage,
and a catechumenate, and a dispensary. Of course, Sister Finan cared for the dispensary and the
visiting of the sick and dispensing of medicine. Sister Patricia Rose was the housekeeper. She
overlooked all the needs of the sisters and Sister Devota was the first novice mistress when they
had the novice. It was [Sister Marie Therese Tuan].
Sr. Mary Teresa:
How would you say that was the experience as a whole, for the community to be in China, to
open a new convent for the Sisters of Charity – what that meant for the sisters, for the
community as a whole?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
Well, I think it was a very wonderful step, I think, and I consider those the best years of my life,
when I was in China, both from the work and from the spiritual advantages.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
So tell me more about that growth that you experienced while you were there.
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
I have the tape upstairs of the progression of the years, what happened during the years I was...
When we were first there, Sister Agnes Paula told me to take care of the financial end, and it was
quite an experience to work with the currency, Chinese [unintelligible] and the coppers and all
their money, and then transfer it into American amounts. I know that they had an old woman
who did the buying with the lot on the street, and doing the buying, she would come back and I’d
try to find out how she used the money and then not knowing the Chinese myself, it took me a
long time to understand that she was getting that [unintelligible] were eggs and [unintelligible]
was chicken and [unintelligible] was pork, and [unintelligible] was a vegetable, but it took some
time to find out how that one Chinese dollar was spent, and keep a record of it.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
Were you challenged, the community over there, to follow the spirit of Saint Vincent de Paul?
Like by being so far away from the Motherhouse here in the United States?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
Oh, we were very conscious of our heritage and the works of Saint Vincent. Our works were
very similar certainly to what he performed with the Ladies of Charity over in France. We had
the poorest of the poor; we had the beggars at the gate; we had the infants dying of malnutrition.
And then of course, we had the education end, between the two different evacuations. Because of
the communists the plan was disrupted. There was quite a time of more or less peace, where we
weren't hampered with war, but that lasted... Well, we went in [1933] and we, too, were
evacuated to Hankou because of communist aggression.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
When did you come home after…
�Sr. Teresa Miriam:
We all came home on June 1st, 1951 after the communists had taken over the hospital, the
school, and our own convent. We told them we had no place to go, and they said, "Oh, yes, you
do. The Catholic church is down on the main street." That was the bishop's house. So that was
the only place. So the bishop gave us five rooms upstairs, and we went there. Our own meals
were served upstairs and theirs were downstairs. We had our cook, and they had their cook, so it
was quite an experience to live.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
How was the return of the sisters to the community in United States? Do you feel that you had to
adjust yourself again to the type of life that the sisters were having here?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
When we came back, we were a few days in San Francisco and a Jesuit priest came and visited
us on a few occasions. But before we got on the train to come east, he had a talk with all of us
there. And he says, "I know, your hearts are all in China." Now he says, "You're going back to
your community. You can either worry all about China, or you can put yourself right into the
other works that are waiting for you, and you can either make your life happy or else you can just
fade away." So I never forgot that. It was so true.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
How do you find the years in the community, after you just came from China? Was it hard for
you and the other sisters to participate in the works of the community?
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
Mmmm, no. No, no, they gave us a big reception when we came back and we were given the
house that's now the novitiate [Harper House, adjacent to Saint Anne Villa]. We were given that
from the 1st of June ‘til September. The nine of us were there and we had the whole run of the
house. We could either have our meals there and could prepare them ourselves or we could go
over to [Saint Anne Villa], which we did many times, went over and had meals at the Villa. And
we had freedom for three months to get back into the swing. And then after three months, we
were all missioned somewhere, and I was sent here [Saint Joseph’s Hospital in Paterson, New
Jersey] and I've been here ever since.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
Since…
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
It was the 1st of September, 1951.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
'51. That's wonderful, Sister. What do you do now over here in St. Joseph? What kind of…
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
�Well, I started out as a teacher. I taught for nine years, ten years before I went to China at
[Sacred Heart School in the Vailsburg section of Newark, New Jersey]. Because in the school
when it was started again after we got there, and I studied a little Chinese first. And then we also
tried to absorb some of the medical work in the dispensary and visiting the sick, Sister Finan
bringing us and showing us what you do when you visit the sick and how to meet the people.
And I didn't get into hospital work until I was home after the bombings.
Sister Finan had asked me to ask [Mother Mary Elenita Barry] for sisters for the hospital for xray and laboratory. I didn't even know what either of them meant, but I didn't – after a year or so
because the war had broken out then – I didn't see or hear of anyone being prepared. And I was
going to the schools and taking collections up on Sundays. I told Mother that school was
departmental work and if I learned something about the laboratory or x-ray, maybe I could help
out in the hospital if I went back. So she agreed that would be good. Then she let me go to the
Hospital of Saint Raphael [in New Haven, Connecticut]. I went to school at St. John's in New
Haven, and I stayed at the convent in St. John's and went over every day to the hospital into their
laboratory. Now they didn't have a program for medical technologists there, but I was there for
about a year and a half, just going from one section to another, with the different technologists.
And then as soon as V-J Day came, Sister Carita and I got permission to go to Washington and
apply for a visa. And there was a very good friend of Sister Finan's, a Jewish doctor, Dr. Charles
Ryan, and he was an officer in the army, too. So through his help in Washington, we made all
our applications there. And in October, our passports and visas were issued with special permits
from the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
So all we had to do then was to look for transportation. We had the permit, but we didn't have the
transportation. We looked and we got passage on the Marine Fox, a troop ship that had just come
in from France with 5,000 soldiers and it was leaving for Shanghai, where it was going to pick
up 3,000 and bring them to Seattle. So we got passage on that ship on the trip to Shanghai, and it
left on Thanksgiving eve of 1945. So we had Thanksgiving, the Feast of the Immaculate
Conception, Christmas, and New Years on the water. There weren't that many on the ship going
back, going from New York, from the Brooklyn navy yards. There were about 40 of the UNRRA
people, the U-N-R-R-A, [United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration] group. And
there were the wives of a couple of U.S. diplomats from Peking and Tientsin, I think.
And there were the three of us [Sisters Teresa Miriam, Mary Carita and Alma Maria]0. It was
quite an experience. We were given one cabin that had two tiers of three bunk beds and nothing
else. That was all that was there, that and our baggage. And the whole ship was geared, of
course, to men. There wasn't a chair. There wasn't anything on the deck. It was all the steel deck.
So you would want to take a blanket and try to find a place that you could sit down in the
daytime. There were some Protestant ministers, families, a couple of families of missionaries and
some of the UNRRA people, they would take mattresses and bring them out, and leave them on
the deck. And when it rained, they'd get soaked, so they'd just throw them overboard. The ship
was set up for 5,000 soldiers and there was less than 100 on it, on this trip. And we went all the
way down the Atlantic through the Panama Canal.
And when we got to Honolulu, the ship was detained there day after day because there was no
degaussing on it, and the waters were still very dangerous for mines. So the ship would not be
permitted to leave until it had the mine-repelling works in operation.
So that was the time we were cared for so beautifully by the Sisters of St. Joseph [of Carondelet]
from St. Louis. They had a mission in Honolulu. They met us at the ship and insisted on bringing
�us up to their place, their convent. And when they found out that, day after day, we were still
there, the work wasn't finished, they made us go and stay with them for a couple of nights. They
gave us new underwear so we could take baths in their convent because we never saw a bathtub
in the whole ship. But they were very kind to us. And if they found out that we were still in port,
they were right down to take us and bring us up.
One day, we were brought by a Maryknoll priest, Father Hughes, to see the bishop. The bishop
said, "Well, that's the answer to the problem!” He said someone came and told him there were
three American sisters on the island, and he didn't know whether it was true or what about it, so
he was glad when he found out who we were. And he would have been glad for us to stay there,
but we weren't interested in staying there. We wanted to get back to our own mission. They were
very nice. And another day the director of the Propagation of the Faith came to see us and gave
us a check for $250 for foreign mission work. I remembered that because I'm just writing it
upstairs.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
Oh, I see. I see, I see. Yes, yes. Well, that's wonderful, Sister, that you are writing all these things
down so the sisters…
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
Well, I had lot of help in this way that my family kept all the letters I sent. So I took them all
back. And in that way I can recall a great many things that you wouldn't otherwise.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
Yes, yes. Well, Sister, I appreciate all this, just to have the chance to talk to you and share your
experiences.
Sr. Teresa Miriam:
Yeah, I was glad to hear all about you, too.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Beschel, Sister Teresa Miriam, S.C.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Orbegozo, Sister Mary Teresa , S.C.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
cassette tape
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
0:23:45
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sister Teresa Miriam Beschel, S.C. Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Beschel, Sister Teresa Miriam, S.C.; China; Sister M. Carita Pendergast; spirit of St. Vincent de Paul; expulsion from China by communist government; Hawaii; Sisters of Saint Joseph of Carondelet; Marine Fox; Saint Joseph Hospital, Paterson, NJ
Description
An account of the resource
Description of Sister's years as a missioner in China; her expulsion by the communist government of China; her return trip to China
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Beschel, Sister Teresa Miriam, S.C.; Orbegozo, Sister Mary Teresa , S.C.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
January 1980
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio/mp3
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Sister Teresa Miriam Beschel desribes her years as a missioner in China; her expulsion by the communist government of China; her return trip to China
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
January 1980
China
Healthcare
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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PDF Text
Text
Interviewer: Sister Francis Maria Cassidy, SC
Interviewee: Sister Margaret Anna Fitzsimmons, SC
Date: July 1, 1983
Editor: Sister Noreen Neary, SC
Date edited: November 20, 2020
Sr. Francis Maria:
Now you were one of our missionaries who went to Puerto Rico. And maybe you’d tell us a little
something about how you came to go to Puerto Rico, and how long you were there, and any
memories you have of your days there.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, you know we had become interested in the foreign missions, more or less, Sister. And one
group had already gone to Guayama, Puerto Rico. It seemed attractive. And I volunteered. And I
went with [Sister Therese Alma Carro] and Sister whom we called Sister Inez, [Sister Anita
Agnes Whalen]. And we came back in [1946], Sister... We're skipping a few... Everybody were
all very happy and very active there. We had the eight grades, of course. I think there were
maybe four missions in the country that the sisters...
Sr. Francis Maria:
Were you one of those sisters who went out to teach?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Sister, the others were more versed in Spanish. And at first I did not go until later when I could
help, not so much with the language as with other little things.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Well, when you went there, Sister, did you go down there to teach in the school? And did you do
that?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, yes. I think that was the idea, the hope of everybody who went, Sister. We had been
teaching here and we knew the school there was well-established. Really, it was not too unlike
our parochial schools here and we could have every confidence.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Do you remember the grades that you taught there, Sister?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Yes, Sister. I had the eighth grade, Sister. It was more or less departmental to more than it is or
was at home here. Teachers who, of course, taught Spanish. [Sister Maria Rosa Delgado] was
one of our special teachers.
�Sr. Francis Maria:
Who are some of the sisters who were there with your time, do you remember any of these
sisters?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Sister Therese Alma went down. Sister Inez, whom she was called, and [Sister Miriam Gertrude
Geis], of course, were there. And [Sister Irene Clare Gallagher], who is now and since that time.
We came up in ‘46 and she went to the Virgin Islands and is still there. [Sister Teresa Agnes
Gilrane] was there and Sister Gertrude something, who died a few years after coming home.
She's not living now. Yes, I meant to ask Sister Miriam about that name because it has been
familiar to me until yesterday or today.
Sr. Francis Maria:
We all forget names.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
We always forget our own.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Was the convent still on the upper floor of the school?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Oh, yes.
Sr. Francis Maria:
...the school?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
It was there, Sister. I think it was the third floor. We didn't mind climbing in those days. And on
the convent, too, was a roof that we enjoyed. We were there always unless in the chapel or
school.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Did you recreate on the roof?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
We did, Sister, yes, and it was delightful.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Do you remember any particular recreations, what you did at recreation?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
�Well, I think we did little singing, Sister. It wasn't difficult. The time flew. Recreation, Sister.
But not too long before we came up, someone gave us a turkey live and of course we were
anxious to taste it. And some little boy whom we had a lot of contact with, it seemed... Oh, he
said... I guess we were talking about it. And he said, well, he could. So we had a circus on that
roof. We had to resort to somebody a little bit stronger than this little lad. He was, what, I think
about 12 years old.
Sr. Francis Maria:
To kill the turkey and prepare it for you. Now, you came up, then, in 1946.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Yes.
Sr. Francis Maria:
And I guess for the sisters who were stationed there or missioned there it was a sad occasion...
Sr. Margaret Anna:
It was, yes.
Sr. Francis Maria:
...to leave the mission. To leave.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, Sister, the priests – the Redemptorists – were anxious. They felt they were in need of high
school teaching. And we really didn't realize how anxious they were about it or… However,
[Mother Mary Benita Kane] was in office at that time, felt and she knew that we couldn't one
year after another, in addition of two staff, a high school sister. And that was the reason thatSr. Francis Maria:
And then another order came in to replace you?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Yes, some from the west, Sister. The middle west. I think they are not there at all now. The
school doesn't... I believe it doesn't exist. We heard that rather recently.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Now what about the packing up and the going and the trip home again?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, we were anxious about how we were going to get home because we couldn't travel just
with our handbag home, you know, but we did come up by boat, Sister, and we enjoyed it, and
we were so glad to see the fresh fruit when we got here. Although we did have plenty of bananas
�down there as you know, and oranges. I think early in August that we came and we really
enjoyed the trip once we got on the boat.
Sr. Francis Maria:
What were the last days like in Puerto Rico? Busy, I suppose?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Oh, yes, of course we were busy, Sister, and everybody not knowing where she was going the
next month or so.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Into the Motherhouse, did you?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Yes, we did, Sister.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Someone meet you at the boat?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, I don't think anyone from here met us, Sister. There were... That is... I don't think anyone
from the Motherhouse met us, but we were met with a couple of friends. Everybody had a couple
of friends or relatives who... I don't know how he managed to get the date. I think the priest, I
forget who he was now. I think he took care of those things.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes. In other words, you didn't have the responsibility...
Sr. Margaret Anna:
No, we didn't.
Sr. Francis Maria:
...of arranging your transportation.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
No.
Sr. Francis Maria:
But did you come to Convent when you returned before goSr. Margaret Anna:
Yes, we did come to Convent, Sister. And...
�Sr. Francis Maria:
You said it was August and school, of course, wouldn't be starting ’til September? So did you
have a little rest? Do you remember anything about that period?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Indeed, Sister, and I think that around that time up in Bergen County was opening for a
residence.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Was it Mount Saint Andrew’s?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Oh, yeah. My mistake. Thank you, Sister. Yeah, that was rather new, I think, then using it in
that...
Sr. Francis Maria:
In that capacity now.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Yes. And so I remember being there for several weeks during the summer.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Just to get your sites fixed.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
That’s right and keep from being too idle.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yeah. Did the children know that you were going?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
I think they did. Oh, yes, they did, Sister, because the parents wouldn't be for the benefit of those
who succeeded us getting the children mentally adjusted.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Make the transition easy.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
That's right. Yes.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Do you remember whether the children showed sorrow or regret? How did they behave? Like
our own children would with sisters leaving whom they loved?
�Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, I suppose they did, Sister, but I think that didn't impress us as much as other things.
Sr. Francis Maria:
What impressed you?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, we were sorry that the mission could not continue. I think at that time the mission in
Santurce had been opened several years before, so that was still... And that was down near San
Juan where our sisters were.
Sr. Francis Maria:
So was Guayama more remote?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Please, Sister.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Was Guayama more remote?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Down at the southern coast, Sister.
Sr. Francis Maria:
So if a choice had to be made of closing one, it would have been Guayama, rather than Santurce?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Oh, well. Yes, it was, Sister. And there was the need there as the priest thought of high school
teaching.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Did you visit the sisters down at that other mission very often? Or did they come to visit you?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, yes. We didn't visit too often, Sister. Every now and then we would have to go down
around San Juan to do a little shopping, and that made it helpful to get to visit them. Before we
did come up, we all went over to St. Thomas and spent a delightful week.
Sr. Francis Maria:
In the Virgin Islands.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
�That's right, Sister. We used to enjoy when the sisters went down on a mission to the Virgin
Islands. They usually stopped for some days, maybe a week, with us. And that was always a big
treat.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sure it was a big treat for them, too. What kind of contact during the years you were there did
you have with the sisters up here in New Jersey? Was there correspondence back and forth?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
I guess I think it was personal, Sister. Whether you... Not in any formal or organized way. And I
think now and then we heard from the Motherhouse. I guess I think we did write more or less
regularly.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Who was the Sister Servant during those days?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
You mean up here, Sister?
Sr. Francis Maria:
No. I mean in Puerto Rico and in the last days, in the closing days.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, Sister, when I went there, I succeeded [Sister Mary Anita Lane] until I left in '46.
Sr. Francis Maria:
So the responsibility, in a sense of closing the mission, was on your shoulders. I know that you
had the help of the other sisters. How did you go about it?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, I don't think, Sister, there was any really set plan. Everybody was thoughtful and they
understood conditions. Everybody did. And there was no problem at all, Sister, getting things
done that had to be taken care of.
Sr. Francis Maria:
So you don't remember hectic days or any particular difficulties?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
I think not, Sister. No.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Well, Sister, I think that the way you've explained your last days there in Puerto Rico is probably
the way that you've gone ahead with your whole life. No, no difficulties.
�Sr. Margaret Anna:
Right, Sister.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Nothing was the problem. Everything took care of itself in the hands of God. And after you came
from Puerto Rico, Sister, what other work then were you assigned to?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
That year, Sister, I went to the Carmelites.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Englewood? Englewood? St. Cecilia's?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Next to it.
Sr. Francis Maria:
No? Next to that in Teaneck?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Mount. Carmel [School in Tenafly, New Jersey]
Sr. Francis Maria:
Oh, Mount Carmel in Ridgewood? No? Well, try again. Never mind, you went to a mission in
Bergen County. Did you go as a teacher or as a principal or as a…
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Well, in those days, Sister, at least most of us did teaching, as well as trying to act as principal.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Trying to act as principal. I'm sure you did a beautiful job. Well, maybe a little later on... You're
shaking your head no. Of course you did. You've done a very beautiful job. Well, Sister
Margaret, you've been then at Saint Anne Villa since you left Marillac House.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Yes, that's right, Sister.
Sr. Francis Maria:
And would you go back in your memory a little bit to the day you entered and just tell us what
year that was?
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Oh, my land, Sister. The year is easy – 1919.
�Sr. Francis Maria:
That's all we'll ask you, Sister. But you've traveled along and I know a happy road since then.
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Thank God. Yes, Sister.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes. Well, Sister, you've been very good with your memories. I am going to now release you
from those memories to move into the present because in about two minutes your lunch will be
served. And I know that you'd like to get to the dining room and have your lunch. And I thank
you very much. And these are very precious memories that you've...
Sr. Margaret Anna:
Nice speaking with you, Sister.
Sr. Francis Maria:
...left with us.
�
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Title
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
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Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C.
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cassette tape
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0:12:39
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sister Margaret Ann Fitzsimmons, S.C. Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C.; Colegio de San Antonio; Guayama, Puerto Rico; Mount Carmel School, Ridgewood, NJ
Description
An account of the resource
Description of Sister's years as teacher and superior at the Colegio de San Antonio in Guayama, Puerto Rico
Creator
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Fitzsimmons, Sister Margaret Anna, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C.
Source
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Date
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July 1, 1983
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Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor)
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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Audio/mp3
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English
Type
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Oral History
Identifier
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Sister Margaret Anna Fitzsimmons describes her years as teacher and superior at the Colegio de San Antonio in Guayama, Puerto Rico
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
July 1, 1983
Education
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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PDF Text
Text
Interviewer:
Interviewee:
Date:
Editor:
Date edited:
Sister Marie Russo, SC
Sister Marie Devota Gately, SC
January 28, 1996
Sister Noreen Neary, SC
November 19, 2020
Sr. Marie:
It’s 3:15 p.m., Saint Anne Villa in Sister's room 204, regarding Sr. Marie Devota while she was
living in the Caritas community, a house of retirement for the sisters in [Jersey City, New
Jersey].
Sr. Marie:
You lived at Caritas in Jersey City from 1982 to 1995. Sr. Devota, would you like tell us about
some of the volunteer work that you did during this time?
Sr. Devota:
Well, during my time there, I was involved quite a bit of volunteer work My first thought when I
went there in 1982 was to give something that I could be of help to other people. So I
accompanied one of the sisters from Caritas over to the Visiting Homemakers Service because
she was [seeking] help for her brother. And while I was there it occurred to me that possibly they
would need some volunteer work done and they were delighted. So that was the beginning of my
work with the Visiting Homemakers Service. I used to go there every week for a few hours. And
I would call people who previously had homemakers, just to find out how they were doing, if
they needed some more help and just in what way could homemaker service be of more
assistance to them. It was really very interesting work and very gratifying work, too.
After I was there for a few months and enjoying the work very much, I received a call from the
executive's office and asking me if I would serve on a new council that they were forming, a
services advisory council of Hudson County. And I was asked if I would serve on this advisory
council. I was amused at first. I remember I was telling [Sister Jo Ann Bromley] about it. She
was our administrator at Caritas and we both had a good laugh about it, not thinking anything
would come of it. I finally was contacted and found out that it was the executive director of
homemaker services who had submitted my name to this council. Well, that was the beginning of
many things. It was really very interesting work. There were about 20 on this advisory council.
And actually our chief work was trying to determine who were the most eligible clients for the
grants that were available.
First they began on a federal basis. Then they went down from the federal to state, then to
county. And we [unintelligible] who were the people in the county who are the most deserving of
the, but it really went into millions to receive these grants. Our job was to discuss what was the
use of the grant. Why is it this particular organization applied for the grant in the first place, what
use they had for the money, and what use did it seem that they were going to make of the
money? And we just got that very interesting discussion about all of these groups. And I was
oftentimes felt that I could give a very unbiased opinion as to whether I felt which organization
would be more deserving and make more use of the grants.
Unfortunately, there were politics that entered into all these things, too. And they all felt that I
was not inclined to be as suggesting any information from a political point of view. So I did the
�best I could to help those that I really felt, you did ask me as a Sister of Charity, how I felt that I
could be of use. And I really felt as a Sister of Charity, they appreciated my contributions and my
suggestions and my advice. But they're all just very wonderful people in this group and the
advisory council. They did excellent work and were very concerned about the people whom they
were serving.
Sr. Marie:
Sr. Devota, weren't you also involved in an advisory council for transportation for the elderly and
handicapped from 1984 to 1994?
Sr. Devota:
Yes. You see one of my problems when I got to Jersey City was to find out how I could get
transportation when I needed it. I had to get to the Eye Institute in Newark, for instance, and had
various places that I had to go to and transportation was a little bit of a problem. We only had the
one car. And so I began calling the county offices to find out if they didn't provide any kind of
transportation to take care of handicapped people. Before I knew it, I had a call from the county
executives in the Office of the Handicapped, asking me if I would be willing to serve on a
citizens’ committee who would determine just in what way they could serve the elderly and the
handicapped with regard to transportation. That, too, became interesting. We became involved in
deciding on what kind of vans they needed to provide for all the people. And there were many
things entering into that. What the qualifications had to be for the drivers even. And it was really,
it turned out to be something very interesting.
I always used to feel that while they were talking about vans for transportation, sometimes I felt
that actually they didn't need vans. Sometimes just an individual or two individuals needed
transportation to get to their college classes. And I couldn't see the need of having a van
transporting one or two people. I was always arguing that it would be certainly more economical
and more comfortable for the people using, needing the transportation to sit in just an ordinary
car. Well, at first my request really wasn't heeded very much. But after a while, they began to see
that this was more economical and it would certainly contribute to the comfort of the individuals
who needed the transportation. And we had to go and vans would be purchased. We had to go
and inspect the vans and see how many wheelchairs could fit in. Oh, there was so much involved
in this, but it was interesting, it was good.
Sr. Marie:
What about there was another committee, the Senior Community Independent Living Services.
You called it SCILS which you started working on in 1987 until 1994. How did you get involved
in this and how was this sort of ministry?
Sr. Devota:
Well you see, after I had been going to the homemakers volunteer service, doing my volunteer
work at the Visiting Homemakers Service, I began to feel that it was getting a little bit difficult
for me to walk over to the office where I did my work. And they were concerned too about my
crossing the streets. So they were just about to begin the SCILS program, the Senior Community
Independent Living Services. And at that time I was asked that, instead of coming over to the
office to do the work, would I please just serve on this committee where we could make
�decisions as to how people could live independently and not have to come out to work. And just
what way could we be of help in suggesting means to give aid to the elderly people?
I really found this group to be particularly interesting. We became involved not so much with the
elderly people but we became very involved with the volunteers. Those who would go and assist
the elderly. The people would go in and would help them with their shopping and people who
would transit, provide transportation for them. Sometimes they would just go to visit them. And
a couple of times a year, or two or three times a year in fact, we would have group dinners
together with these volunteer people, who would explain to us what they were doing and how
much they enjoyed doing volunteer work for others. It's amazing how many people are really
interested in giving assistance to othesr and the pleasure they get out of it. I think if everybody
were aware of the pleasure you can get out of giving to others, I think more people would be
wanting to volunteer their services.
Sr. Marie:
From 1984 to 1991, Sister Devota, you were involved in a committee an archdiocesan
committee, the foster grandparents program.
Sr. Devota:
Yes.
Sr. Marie:
Could you tell something about that?
Sr. Devota:
That again was an advisory council. I never knew I could ever be on so many advisory councils
at one time. But that again was an advisory council and the Director of the Catholic Community
Services in Jersey City asked me if I would serve on that. We would meet once a month, quite
regularly. And we would just see in what way could people who would like to act as foster
grandparents really help these children. In fact, when I was first invited to be on the advisory
council I said, "Oh, no.” I thought I was expected to work with the little children myself and in
no way did I feel prepared to do this at my age. However, that wasn't it, we were just on the
advisory council for it.
And the grandparents, we used to have a luncheon once or twice a year when they would tell us
their experiences and the joy they received from being foster grandparents and acting as foster
grandparents for these little children. The elderly people themselves got so much happiness out
of it because they said, "Oh, it was so good to see the little children." They'd come in and they
just run up to them, throw their arms around them. And the elderly people got more out of it than
you could ever even imagine. So again I say, giving yourself to others is really very, very
rewarding. You get more reward, I think we got more reward out of the things we do for other
people than they actually get out of it, too.
Sr. Marie:
Sister Devota, would you tell us a little bit more about another ministry that you engaged in,
volunteer work when you were in Caritas?
�Sr. Devota:
Well, one of the things I did when I began, when I first went to Caritas, was to visit the jail, the
Hudson County jail. It wasn't too far away from us, it was about, I would say about the
equivalent of about three blocks away from us. And I used to go there, spend most of every
Friday morning. I would visit the women in the jail. It was mostly a male institution, but the
women were very much in the minority. Actually, when I began my work there, we only had
about 40 or 50 women. But by the time I finished and the jail moved about ten years later, it was
the population of the women was up to a hundred. And it was interesting going there. I think
what those women needed more than anything else was someone to listen to them. So I always
gave them a willing ear and occasionally they would ask me for advice on what to do. And they
really needed it.
We used to read. I did provide copies of the New Testament for them and any time I had little
scriptural quotations or leaflets, I always gave them rosary beads. They were just so happy to get
any of these things. And each time I would go in, they would show me that they had them. I had
to teach them actually how to say the Hail Mary and the Our Father. Some of them, of course,
didn't even know that. They weren't all Catholics, but even whether they were Catholic or not,
very often they came to me. The conditions in the jail were really sad. It used to bother me very
much.
Sr. Marie:
Yeah?
Sr. Devota:
Yes, because I mean, they had become so overcrowded and actually there was one big room and
they slept in bunk beds. They were just one above the other. And there were about seven little
cells. There would be about 14 women in one of these big rooms. And they'd have to jump down
from the top bunk and that's the way they slept. And they'd see me they would really, it was
amazing how so many of them would come over to talk to me. And some of them, you'd find out
that they had several children, all by different husbands. And I used to try to talk sense to them,
giving their lives to these men, just letting them, helping them satisfy their own sexual desires.
And I said, "Who is to pay for?" I said, "Do they help you after the child is born?" Of course not.
And I would question them sometimes, I'd find out someone had five and six children, each one
by a different father. This was really sad. And I tried to help them to look into the future and see
the damage they were doing to themselves and to the children. And they liked me for it, believe
it or not.
Sr. Marie:
They didn't mind?
Sr. Devota:
No. And I did teach them the Hail Mary and the Our Father, I think I said that before. And
helped them to know what the Rosary was all about because there was quite a large Muslim
population of women in the jail. And they used to encourage the women to go to them whenever
a Muslim leader would go to them. And apparently they had appealing things to say, because a
couple of the women went over to the Muslims and thought it was really great. But I don't feel
�that the women got enough spiritual help there or enough of any kind of help, to tell you the
truth. The men used to have women coming in, tutoring them and helping them prepare for their
GEDs. No one came to tutor the women. I don't know why.
And the men used to have Masses occasionally, but the women weren't invited because they said
the reason why the women weren't invited, because it would be too much of a distraction for the
men, having women at the Mass with them. So the chaplain felt that it was better not to have
them. But occasionally a priest would come and talk with them too. And another thing that we
did sometimes, there was a long time ago and they used to have the privilege of crocheting and
knitting. However, apparently it was abused because that was taken away from them.
But sometimes when a girl would be expecting a baby, she'd say to me how much she wished she
could make a little baby blanket – that she knew how to crochet or knit – or make little booties or
a little sweater for the baby. So I would have to go to one of the authorities in the jail and get
permission to get yarn for her and get all the knitting needles or the crochet hooks or whatever
she would need and get permission for her to do some crocheting.
This had to be done under a certain amount of supervision, but they were really so grateful for
this opportunity they would have to actually do some crocheting or knitting for the baby that was
coming. I could understand why it was a dangerous thing because anything with a point on is
dangerous to put in the hands of one of the inmates.
But we used to read scripture too. We provided, I got them through the jail, copies of the New
Testament. And sometimes we'd read a few passages out of it. A passage I would think would
appeal to them and we'd discuss it. But I found it very satisfying.
Sr. Marie:
I was just thinking of Saint Vincent de Paul with the galley slaves, the way he worked with them.
It reminds me of what something that he would do.
Sr. Devota:
Yes. It's really very interesting. I would have stayed there. Finally, I think it was in 1981 the jail
moved. Well, they had been really working on it and trying to improve conditions there, but then
they moved to, I think it was someplace in South Kearny. Yeah, but it's not there. I think there's
just an empty lot there now. And they were going to make it parking lot out of it or something.
Sr. Marie:
I didn't even notice that.
Sr. Devota:
But I had wanted very often to get someone to drive me to the jail after they moved. But
somehow or other that never materialized.
But I think the conditions there were better than what they had left. I didn't go away from the jail,
the jail went away from me. At the end of it, they really liked, when I would come over, I didn't
go inside the cell, but they would come. A group of them would come over to the gate to me.
And of course there were different parts that I would go into it, go into different rooms.
�I'd be able to talk right with them there in the individual rooms. But this one room had all those
bunk beds in it. Other places had the bunk beds, too, but they weren't fenced in, the way some of
them, at the gate.
Sr. Marie:
And were you by yourself when you went into those other rooms?
Sr. Devota:
Oh yes, but the guard didn't like me to go right inside the cell, unless there was somebody
present there. They kind of fear of that. But I never had any problems with the women. They
were always very nice. The Lord always takes care of us.
Sr. Marie:
Yeah, it was like you had your guardian angel protecting you or something.
Sr. Devota:
I got friendly with all the authorities in the jail, too.
Sr. Marie:
Did you really?
Sr. Devota:
Yes.
Sr. Marie:
You were influencing systems there too. Besides your work in the councils, you were working
for the good of the women there by knowing the officials themselves.
Sr. Devota:
Oh, yes. Well, of course I had been into counseling before I retired. In fact, I was in counseling
quite a few years. But then I made use of the counseling again in the parish, in [Saint Joseph
School in Jersey City].
Sr. Marie:
Oh, would you tell us about that, what did you do in the school?
Sr. Devota:
What I did, the principal, Sister Joan McKee, would give me a list of names of some of the
students, all in different grades. And I would go over to the school once a week and meet these
children on an individual basis. And we would just discuss whatever their problems were or
whatever they needed. And some actually range from kindergarten up to the eighth grade.
�So, that was a good experience. But there was such a different level, the whole range. I had just
maybe a couple from, not from every grade of course, but I had quite a few who came to me at
about a half hour intervals or whatever.
Sr. Marie:
Sr. Devota, you were also involved in the parish itself, besides being involved in the school.
Would you tell us about the work that you did in the parish?
Sr. Devota:
Well, before I went to Caritas community, I had been a Eucharistic minister already, had been
through that training and so forth. So when I went to Saint Joseph's parish, this parish in which
Caritas community is located, I was Eucharistic minister the whole time that I was there. And
that was really a privilege. Then once a week on Monday nights a group of the women used to
get together. In fact, they used to come over to the convent and we would have the 15 decades of
the Rosary every Monday night. And a couple of the sisters and I always participated in that and
that was rewarding. And, too, they had the annual carnival that we had in the fall of every year.
And sometimes I would go out during the carnival and help sell chances or do something like
that, just to try and make myself useful.
Sr. Marie:
If I remember correctly, you were involved, quite involved in the life of the parish in any activity
they had.
Sr. Devota:
Well, I always liked it. I felt I liked to be part of the parish. But sometimes my other activities,
for instance, the Human Services Advisory Council, we used to have meetings beside our
evening meetings. We used to have meetings on Monday, it used to be mostly committee
meetings on Monday afternoon. I had joined the senior citizens in the parish, but this interfered
with some of the other meetings I had in the Human Services Advisory Council. So I really
couldn't continue that for too long, although I went on some of the activities that they had. One
thing that they had, and this was a parish activity. I just thought of it.
The PATH [Port Authority Trans-Hudson transit system], the trains there that run at Journal
Square Port Authority, they wanted to build something right there at the square in the PATH
terminal, which ran into our parish. There were people living over there and the railroad, when
the trains went right underneath. There was this area of the parish, it was called The Island. And
whatever the Port Authority wanted to build, I don't really know exactly what it was, but I knew
it was going to be very, very noisy.
And people objected very much to it because they just felt that the noise involved, they weren't
going to stay in the parish and they did not want to move. So they organized a trip to Trenton and
asked for a group of us to go to Trenton to fight this. And, of course, I was one of the ones who
went to Trenton. And as a result, the Port Authority gave up the idea of building whatever they
wanted to build that was going to be so noisy and have such a negative influence on the people in
the parish. I was glad of that. And I made some nice acquaintances the day we went there.
Sr. Marie:
�So, it sounds as if you not only were involved on councils and in the parish, you were involved
in really helping to change the life of the whole community and of a lot of people in Hudson
County.
Sr. Devota:
I don't know how much I changed their lives, but…
Sr. Marie:
Well…
Sr. Devota:
I was involved in some way in a few things.
Sr. Marie:
And it sounds as if you went out to the poor, as we do as Sisters of Charity. So, thank you for
sharing that with us and thank you for your time.
Sr. Devota:
You're very welcome and…
Sr. Marie:
And for giving us the example.
Sr. Devota:
Very happy to be able to share it because I feel that these are privileges that the Lord gave me,
that I didn't have to sit idle and just twiddle my thumbs after I had retired.
Sr. Marie:
After your retirement, right.
Sr. Devota:
But I'm very grateful for all I was able to do. And it didn't seem like a lot at the time, but now as
I look back, I'm glad I was able to do what I did.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station
Oral History
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Interviewee
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Gately, Sister Marie Devota, SC
Interviewer
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Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C.
Original Format
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cassette tape
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0:22:29
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Sister Marie Devota Gately, S.C. Oral History
Subject
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Gately, Sister Marie Devota, S.C.; Caritas Community; Jersey City, NJ; St. Joseph Parish and School, Jersey City, NJ
Description
An account of the resource
Description of Sister's varied volunteer activities during her retirement in Caritas Community in Jersey City, NJ
Creator
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Gately, Sister Marie Devota, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C.
Source
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Date
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January 28, 1996
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Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor)
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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Audio/mp3
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English
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Oral History
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Sister Marie Devota describes her varied volunteer activities during her retirement in Caritas Community in Jersey City, NJ
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
January 28, 1996
Education
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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PDF Text
Text
Interviewer:
Interviewee:
Date:
Editor:
Date edited:
Sister Francis Maria Cassidy, SC
Sister Anna Denise Murphy, SC
July 6, 1983
Sister Noreen Neary, SC
November 17, 2020
Sr. Francis Maria:
We're visiting at Saint Anne Villa this morning. It's July 6th 1983 and I'm sitting in a lovely,
cheerful parlor. And sitting next to me is ... And we've been chatting for a little bit about the
[House of Divine Providence and Home for Incurables in Ridgewood, New Jersey]. Your name
is Sister Anna Denise Murphy and I'm Sister Francis Maria Cassidy. And I'm just recording that
I'm visiting you in this lovely, cheerful parlor. Sister Bea Guider has given us a very nice room
here to ... Sister Anna has agreed to tell us something for the record, for history, about her
memories of the House of Divine Providence for Incurables in Ridgewood. So, SisterSr. Anna Denise:
You see, there was a little cottage, I'll tell you that point. Across the way from the House of
Divine Providence, and [Mrs. Andrew Fuller] owned that house. It was a little cottage.
Sr. Anna Denise:
... and do things for her. And when she died, she gave all that property to Sister Sarah Joseph
[Morning], where Mount Saint Andrew is. All that property she gave to Sarah Joseph.
Sr. Francis Maria:
That would be across the street?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yes. The big house. Nothing was there then, when I was there. And then you see, Sister, this is
funny, she had a lot of lovely flowers, Sister. And she had a horse, the woman had. She had a
horse, and I think a dog. And she had a parrot. And you see, the people in our house used to go
over there. She had lovely flowers, and they used to pull the flowers. And Sister could hear miles
away, that parrot would holler, "There they are." And that meant she'd come out and chase them.
But Sister, I think you could hear in New York, he'd holler every time they'd come. He'd holler
and she'd have to chase them. She used to give some of the flowers for the chapel. And then, of
course it was very ... every Sister did their work there. No help of any. They had one girl, a
lovely young girl. She's now the Sister. But she was Maria Melania here.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Her Sister, Mary Crowe.
Sr. Francis Maria:
�Yes, I know Sister Melania.
Sr. Anna Denise:
She used to have to help me because I didn't know much. So in the morning, [Sister Maria
Melania Crowe] used to tell us at the table. "Please, Sisters, could you do without milk? Or could
you do without bread?" Or something, "Because I ain't got enough for the patients." They'd say
yes. And then Sister Sarah Joseph had a wagon and a horse. This is funny, too. And I'd have to
get up at three o'clock in the morning, and go in that wagon with her. And she'd go down to
Newark, to Walsh to get the meat for nothing. He had a big, big meat store, but she'd have to go
there before the man would open.
Sr. Anna Denise:
And, Sister, she had a little bell. And she stuck that bell and she'd ring it for the Angelus. Now
this is true, and every time she rang, the horse…
Sr. Francis Maria:
Nodded his head.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yes, he was used to that.
Sr. Francis Maria:
It was a signal.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Then when we'd come home, Sister, we'd have to take care of the patients and fix them, get ready
for Mass. It was very hard because…
Sr. Francis Maria:
Do you remember the year that you went there, Sister?
Sr. Anna Denise:
I think it was either 1916 or ‘17, because I entered in 1915.
Sr. Francis Maria:
So then you were just a novice?
Sr. Anna Denise:
What?
Sr. Francis Maria:
You were just a novice.
�Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, [unintelligible]. And then you see, Sister, they had a great big room there, a beautiful room.
Best room there. And they used to fix this up and have it. But that was for [Mother Mary Xavier
Mehegan]. She used to come and stay. That was before I was there, of course. And they used to
say, "Fix the room." And they put a big chair for her, and she used to see the sisters, see? And
she'd stay there a couple of days. And of course, the sisters were so happy that she was there.
Sr. Francis Maria:
It would be like a visitation, but it would also be a little vacation for her.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, she loved it. She loved Ridgewood.
Sr. Francis Maria:
It was getting out into the country, even though here is country.
Sr. Anna Denise:
You see, now it's all built up. Before there was there nothing for miles and miles, there was
nothing there, no houses, only that little cottage. And across the street where Mount Saint
Andrew’s was, there was nothing there but woods. But now it's all built up. And of course, the
house is burnt; they have a church there now.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes. I've been to that church. Do you remember anything about that fire?
Sr. Anna Denise:
About what?
Sr. Francis Maria:
The fire that burned…
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, yes. You see, Sister, Mr. Cullen in Newark used to give girls to them. I don't know, they
were poor. So this girl, after the fire, they said she was a firebug, I don't know. And up in the
attic, of course, they had nowhere. They never had wheelchairs. They had crutches and all that.
And she must have sent up there fire. I remember, the whole attic went on fire and we had such a
hard time because most of those people were crippled. And we had to try and get them
downstairs and out, and everything. That was in 1925.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Oh, you have a good memory for dates.
Sr. Anna Denise:
�Yes, that was from 1925. I forget that date, but it was 1925. And they had to get out. We had to
try and get them out. So the firemen in Ridgewood were very quick, Sister. They helped us.
Because the ones in Ridgewood didn't come right away, but the firemen in Paterson came.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Oh, it was the Paterson firemen who helped you?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, they did all the work. The Ridgewood firemen came after, but they wasn't so quick. They
took their time. But the firemen in Ridgewood, they did, they came.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Paterson first, and then the Ridgewood people came.
Sr. Anna Denise:
But Paterson did everything.
Sr. Francis Maria:
But before the fireman arrived, I imagine you must have been helping the patients.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, we had to get them down, Sister, because they were crippled. And then each sister tried to
get them down, and [Sister Mary Valentinia Morin] had a great big dormitory with patients. It
was a big floor. And then the next floor was Sister Lethia's. And the next floor was mine. And
we had to try and get them out. The smoke alone would kill them, Sister.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Were there any injuries?
Sr. Anna Denise:
What?
Sr. Francis Maria:
Were there any injuries?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Well, not there, but then we put them over to Mount Saint Andrew’s was there. And a good
many of them died with fright. None of them [unintelligible]. They died with fright. They were
so crippled, Sister, it was hard to get them down.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sister, was this fire at night?
�Sr. Anna Denise:
No, Sister. No, thank God it wasn't at night, I think it was in the afternoon, as far as I know. But
it wasn't at night, I know that.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Well, that was a blessing.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, yes. And we got them out, anyway. But, see, they were so sick, Sister, it was hard to get
them out. We got them out. And of course, I was the youngest Sister there, and they depend upon
a lot. At that time you couldn't say no. Whatever you were told to do, you had to try.
Sr. Francis Maria:
It was easier in a way.
Sr. Anna Denise:
What?
Sr. Francis Maria:
It was easier in a way in that you didn't have to make a decision.
Sr. Anna Denise:
And Sister Sarah Joseph had charge of the whole farm. She had charge of getting the meat. Then
there used to get a great big bake... I forget, it was Ward’s. The name was Ward’s. They'd give
them big bags of flour and they’d make the bread. They had a big room, I remember, and two
great big ovens. And you see, we had to get up at three o'clock in the morning once a month or
every second week and they’d make the bread. But at that time, Sister, you couldn't break your
fast, don't you remember?
Sr. Francis Maria:
I remember, until after communion.
Sr. Anna Denise:
They'd say to me, "Hurry up." I'd have to come down, and they'd make the bread. Oh, Sister, the
smell of that bread would make you eat, but you couldn't touch it. And Sister Sarah Joseph had
charge of it. Sister Valentinia and Sister Louise Adele [King] was there, and [Sister Mary Esther
Mahoney] was there. And [Sister Mary Simeon Ward], she died here. And Sister Valentinia died
here. All those Sisters used to work, so we used to get ... And then after that I'd have to go up and
get the patients ready for the priest.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Now, I hope you had some bread before you did that. Was this before Mass?
�Sr. Anna Denise:
Nothing.
Sr. Francis Maria:
And you were young.
Sr. Anna Denise:
You had no time for that.
Sr. Francis Maria:
You were young. You must have had such an appetite.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Even the other Sisters didn't. They were used to that.
Sr. Francis Maria:
But I'm think thinking about the smell of that bread on an empty stomach.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah. And those Sisters, they got over ... I guess God took care of us. And those old Sisters, my
goodness, what sacrifice they did. So then I'd have to get the patients ready for Father… oh,
Father Keough.
Sr. Francis Maria:
See, it worked.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, you got it. Father Keough was there. And he used to hear the patients' confessions. But
he'd have to have a bell, because they weren't able to go out and in. And when he was still with
the confession, he rang this bell. We'd have to go in and take the patient out and bring the other
one in, see? They were crippled.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Oh, yes.
Sr. Anna Denise:
They had no elevator, Sister. Food came up on dumbwaiters, and I had a pantry and this woman.
Oh, she was a little bit of a nuisance, and she used to take and upset the tray, so I went to her. So
when she came out of confession, she says, "Father Keough told me what to do about you. He
helped me. He said, 'Don't bother with her pantry. Stay away from it. You don't want to go
there.'" But he did this for me.
Sr. Francis Maria:
�That was his way of helping you?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah. So she stayed away.
Sr. Francis Maria:
He was a good psychologist.
Sr. Anna Denise:
She didn't go in anymore, see?
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes.
Sr. Anna Denise:
But I was nice to her. That didn’t bother, because Sister Melania always told us, "Sisters, you
have to put up with a lot. They're sick." And I told you about the rosary, did I?
Sr. Francis Maria:
No, not yet.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Well, this woman was very sick, Sister, and she was all crippled. And she was a good Catholic.
And I had a nail in her room. And on that nail I'd have to put the rosary. And she went through
her eyes. Nails used to go into her hands. But we had no medicine. We had carbolic, but we had
a doctor that would come once or twice a year. And he'd always say to me, "Little Sister, you
have to wear gloves," you have [unintelligible]. And I had other patients…
Sr. Francis Maria:
You mean your hands were burned from the carbolic?
Sr. Anna Denise:
What?
Sr. Francis Maria:
Your hands were burned?
Sr. Anna Denise:
You had to put it in water to fix it because we had nothing else. That was the only thing that
would wash her. Because, Sister, if we left that hand there, the worms would get in, see the
flesh…
Sr. Francis Maria:
�Sure. Did you find this hard to do?
Sr. Anna Denise:
No, I was young and strong, Sister. I was young and strong then. I thought when you went to the
community you had to do whatever you've got to do.
Sr. Francis Maria:
We hear so much today about Mother Teresa of Calcutta working with the indigent poor in India
and in other parts of the world, and we wonder how she can work with these people who are so
ill, but as you say…
Sr. Anna Denise:
Those people couldn't have [unintelligible], because it was incurable. Because the priest, and this
woman used to get them down by [unintelligible], living in the little huts or something, they were
poor, see? And we had one [Sister Mary Cortona Byrne], she was [unintelligible]. She used to
make the clothes for them, but Sister, she got cancer.
Sr. Francis Maria:
I'm sure she has a beautiful face in heaven.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, yeah. They put her in the parlor, and there used to be an undertaker in Paterson. He used to
come. Of course, they had their own graveyard there.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes, I see. They had their own graveyard at the House of Divine Providence?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, yeah. They had a big graveyard. Father Keough said Mass and everything, and they got
everything. But I was young. I didn't mind it. And you see, I was sent there, and Sister, Lord
have mercy on her, Melania and Mary Crowe, the woman had to have a bath. Of course, I'd
never bathed anyone in my life. So I put the woman in the tub. And, Sister, I guess I was rubbing
her with my eyes shut. I rubbed her so much, we had those fluted caps... in the tub.
Sr. Francis Maria:
She threw you in?
Sr. Anna Denise:
She put my head in. The woman got tired of me rubbing with my eyes shut, I didn't know any
better. Oh, you know those fluted caps?
Sr. Francis Maria:
I sure do.
�Sr. Anna Denise:
All the starch… I went up to Sister Melania. "Mother of love, what happened to you?" Well, I
said, "Sister, that woman put my head in the tub." "Why? Sister, dear, you must keep your eyes
open when you bathe people." I said, "Sister, I never bathed…"
Sr. Francis Maria:
You were embarrassed?
Sr. Anna Denise:
No, I didn't know. I was dumb. I said, "Sister, I never bathed anyone." Oh she said, "I know you
didn't. But if you're bathing them, keep your eyes wide open." For years gone by, they had that
joke on me, because all the [unintelligible].
Sr. Francis Maria:
And you know those fluted caps were hard to come by.
Sr. Anna Denise:
See, the other Sisters, they were much older. They knew about it, and then you see…
Sr. Francis Maria:
You had no training for this.
Sr. Anna Denise:
What?
Sr. Francis Maria:
You had no training for this kind of work.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Well, I never did. I was young. And then Keough used to come at Christmas, and he used to
visit, eat dinner with us. And then at Christmas, you see, the people in Paterson and Knights of
Columbus used to send pails of candy. And we had to take every bag we had and put candy
inside, and we'd give it to the patients. Of course, they thought they were in heaven, in heaven on
Earth for a bit of candy. We'd give it to them. And then on the 8th of December, Sister Melania
gave us 50 cents. Oh, we were [unintelligible] because Sarah Joseph used to take us to Paterson
and we used to buy a lot of stuff.
Sr. Francis Maria:
With your 50 cents?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh my goodness.
�Sr. Francis Maria:
That was a fortune then.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah. Everything was cheap then. And Sister Valentinia came home and she said to Sister
Melania, "Guess what?" She said, "I was in in that store and I got this little ham, 50 cents."
Sr. Francis Maria:
No.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, everything was cheap then.
Sr. Francis Maria:
What could you buy for 50 cents today?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, that was in Paterson and I guess he gave it to her cheaper. At that time they had lots of
love for the house and the Sisters.
Sr. Francis Maria:
She probably told them that's all the money she had.
Sr. Anna Denise:
So, the Sister in the kitchen, I think it was [Sister Anna Josephus Lucey], the Sister in the kitchen
fixed it and gave it to us, a little piece. Then at night, we had recreation. And Sunday night,
Sister Melania, she was at every exercise. We had to be there for recreation, and she used to sit in
a big chair, Sister. And you know who she reminded me of? One time I saw in a book, I don't
know what book, Mother Seton with the Sisters around her. And she'd have us around there, and
she'd tell us ... I know one story she told me.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Was she the Sister Servant?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh yes, she was. But one story she told me, she told us the old [Sister Mary Catherine Nevin]. I
didn't know her.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Oh, Mary Catherine Nevin?
Sr. Anna Denise:
�Yes. The first. That's when she was 50 years old. She stood and she said to the Sisters, "Pray for
me. I'm 50 years serving God, that I did His work and everything right – that's what I want," she
said. I know that, she tells us other things. And they had a Victrola, but it was those round ones.
Maybe you don't remember them. They were like this, the old ones. And I’d have charge of them
and I'd have to put the records in. And Sunday night, for dessert we had a big thing of apples.
Sr. Francis Maria:
The sisters’ recreation time?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah. But oh, Sister, we were happy.
Sr. Francis Maria:
You were happy. You worked hard, you were very happy.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, we had no time, Sister. When I used to go down to recreation Sunday, some poor patient that
would walk around. I'd say, "If anything happens, call some way." Because they had no
telephones or things like that. But, oh, Sister Melania was so good. She was at every exercise,
and she was just like ourselves.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes. She is very sweet. Now Sister, were there some Sisters there at the time you were there,
who had been there in Mother Xavier's time?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yes, I'll tell you who was there. Sarah Joseph was there, and Mary Esther was there. They told us
about the big room, as I told you about. And Sister Louise Adele was there. She had charge of
the priests – the front of the house and the priests. And then they had a Sister, that I think she
was there too. [Sister Cornelia Agnes O’Rourke].
Sr. Francis Maria:
Cornelius?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Agnes Cornelius. She had charge of the meeting, and the prayers, and everything. Then in the
convent where we were, Sister, from the top of that room where we were down to the bottom,
they had a big glass door and you could see the Blessed Sacrament and then the next floor was
the choir, and then of course, down below. But Sister Melania used to always tell us, she'd say,
"Sisters, when you go in the chapel, I want no talking. God is there."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Now, do you remember any of the other stories about Mother Xavier? Do you remember
anything they told you?
�Sr. Anna Denise:
No, I don’t know because I wasn't there. Only what they told me.
Sr. Francis Maria:
I know, but what they told you. Now she would come…
Sr. Anna Denise:
The sisters used to go in to see her, and she loved Sister Melania, and she loved to stay there
because she could go around, and she used to talk to them and tell them things.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Talk to the sisters and talk to the patients?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, they loved it. Of course, I wasn't there. I entered in 1915.
Sr. Francis Maria:
I understand, yes.
Sr. Anna Denise:
But they told me this room was beautiful, but I know one time Sister Valentinia went to Paterson
with the fifty cents and she bought a lovely cup and saucer. See, they had nice things at the table
for Mother Xavier when she came. And she used to say, "Sisters, I want the same as you people
have." Melania used to say, "The sisters thought so much of you, Mother, that they thought
they'd buy the cup and fix a place."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Well, that's a very nice insight into how humble a woman Mother Xavier was.
Sr. Anna Denise:
What?
Sr. Francis Maria:
She was very humble, Mother Xavier. She wanted no fuss.
Sr. Anna Denise:
She was like a mother. So she bought this cup. I saw it after. That room was never touched.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Oh, they kept that room?
Sr. Anna Denise:
�That was locked up and she used to come. Then there was St. Joseph's Hospital [in Paterson,
New Jersey]. There was a Sister before Mary Clare, [Sister Mary Irmina McDonough] or some
name like that. But she was a great friend of Sister Melania. And Sister used to go there. She
used to give Sister Melania some gauze and medicine for the patients.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sharing.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, so she used to take us. So this time she took me, and we had [inaudible 00:19:46]. Sister
Irmina, that was her name.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sister Irmina?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Irmina. Before Mary Clare got there. And she said to Sister Melania, "I wish could have that
little Sister, she could be a nurse." Oh, my heart was broken. And then Sister Melania said, "Oh
no, Sister. We need her. We need her very much."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sister Irmina wanted you at St. Joseph's Hospital?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, to become a nurse. But I was so frightened, Sister. Sister Melania said, "No, we need her
mostly there." She said, "Sister Melania, your sisters work 10 times harder than my nurses." She
said, "They ain't got all that work to do." But, oh Sister, it was awfully hard. I guess you're tired
listening to me.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sister, I could go on listening forever. Do you remember how long you were there at the House
of Divine Providence?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Well, I was there ‘til the fire. And after the fire, I was there two years, and we were sent over to
Mount Saint Andrew. But they had no room for everybody. Sister Valentinia had to go over, and
this one had ... They had no room for me over there, so I was there three years and then I was
sent out to another mission. But the other mission wasn’t anything.
Sr. Francis Maria:
You must have missed it when you had to leave.
Sr. Anna Denise:
�But they had no room over there, Sister. They had room for all the other nuns, see.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sister, can I go back to that special room they had set up for Mother Xavier?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Was that destroyed in the fire? Was that room destroyed?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Everything was destroyed.
Sr. Francis Maria:
So that lovely cup and saucer that you spoke about?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yes, my goodness. At that time, everything was wonderful. [Sister Valentinia would] come and
she'd say to Sister Melania, "Look what I bought." Because we had bowls. "Look what I bought."
Sister Melania said, "Oh, a cup and saucer for yourself." "Oh, no, no," she said, "for Mother
Xavier." Then Sister Melania said, "Oh, that's very nice. We'll put that at her place when she
comes." But Mother Xavier didn't want it. Mother Xavier said, "I'll have the same as the sisters."
But then Sister Melania said, "Sister Valentinia spent her big money, 50 cents."
Sr. Francis Maria:
50 cents. Did you see that cup and saucer?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yes.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Do you remember what it looked like?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Well, it was a fancy cup and saucer. It had little flowers around it and flowers on the thing. Of
course, at that time everything was wonderful and they put it at her plate.
Sr. Francis Maria:
That was very special for her. She didn't want it.
Sr. Anna Denise:
�She didn't want it. "I want the same." Sister Melania said, "Mother, listen. She spent her whole
50 cents to buy the cup and saucer," so Mother Xavier said, "All right, I'll use it as long as
Valentinia did that."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Ah, she didn't want to hurt her.
Sr. Anna Denise:
But you see, they told me before that they loved Mother Xavier. When she’d come, the house
was lit up. And Sister Melania said, "Don't do anything special for me. Give me everything the
Sisters have the same."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Mother Xavier would say this.
Sr. Anna Denise:
And she used to come down, and she used to be for recreation. But they'd all be so happy. She
was a great friend of Melania. Of course, Melania was much older. And she loved them.
Sr. Francis Maria:
When Mother Xavier would come, I suppose she'd rest a bit, she'd be at recreation with you.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Melania used to say to the Sisters, "Now Sisters, don't go in the room to Mother Xavier ‘til after
dinner. She just went to Mass and she wants a rest."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Give her a chance.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Sister Melania used to go and see her.
Sr. Francis Maria:
When you think that she had such a responsibility in the community on her shoulders, and she
wasn't young at that time.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Who?
Sr. Francis Maria:
Mother Xavier.
Sr. Anna Denise:
�Yeah, but she loved it. She loved that place.
Sr. Francis Maria:
She loved to come. As I have read, this was one of her very favorite projects, this House of
Divine Providence.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, she loved it. But Sister Melania used to go with her around the grounds, and then she was
very good. She'd go and see the sick people. And she used to say to Sister Melania, "Oh, Sister,
they are God's people. They are God's people going to heaven." And she used to say to some of
the people, "If you get to heaven, don't forget Mother."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Mother Xavier would say that?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, because you see, they had suffered so, and they had nothing.
Sr. Francis Maria:
She was depending on their prayers.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, they were poor people. They didn't have half of the clothes when they'd bring them in.
And the women in Paterson were mostly good to work.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes. But there was a great concern in our community for the poor.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah. Oh, Sister, they were poor. Then you see, when they die ... When the doctors told me, I
used to say to them, "You'll be in heaven pretty soon." And then at ten o'clock in that house, in
the sun parlor, they said the rosary and they said the prayers, and they used to go around the
rooms. Of course, the ones in the rooms wouldn't hear them. But they had to tell them that the
rosary was beginning and they'd pray.
Sr. Francis Maria:
And they would say it from their beds.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh yes, they'd say it and they used to pray for the sick. And they always prayed for the
community. And praying for different ones dying. When I think of it now, I don't know how ... It
was very hard, Sister. Because you had nobody to help. You had to bathe them. You had to see
�that the rooms were clean. You had to see that the food came up on the dumbwaiter. You had to
fix your tray.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Is that what you did in your pantry? You spoke about having charge of a pantry?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, that was where the trays were. That belonged to the floor. That belonged to your floor.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes. You carried the trays?
Sr. Anna Denise:
What?
Sr. Francis Maria:
You carried the trays to the patients?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, we had to carry the trays. And sometimes, what's her name, Mary Crowe used to help me
with the trays. She was very good.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Mary Crowe?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Mary Crowe. She wasn't a sister. And her sister is here, [Sister Maria Melania Crowe]...
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sister, you mentioned that you did all the work yourselves, the sisters did. You did haveSr. Anna Denise:
We had to. We had no nurses.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yeah, you had Mary Crowe to help you.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, yeah. We had no nurses. That's why Sister Irmina used to say, "Your sisters work more than
the nurses." We had no nurses.
Sr. Francis Maria:
�There was just one thing I wanted to ask you about, I know that you had no help in the house, but
how about the grounds? Did you have any man who helped you?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yes, I forget what he was. But he never came in the house. He did that for charity. He came to
the grounds for Sister ... He came from Paterson, too. I forget what his name was now. Patrick
O'Neill, some name like that.
Sr. Francis Maria:
It's a good name. Did you ever hear the story of a man, a deaf mute who couldn't speak, who
Mother Xavier had here at Convent Station and whom she sent out there to the House of Divine
Providence when he became very ill?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Well, I heard of it, but you see, I was never there in her time.
Sr. Francis Maria:
I know you weren't there, but do you remember anyone talking about him?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Well, Valentinia and I think it was Sister Esther, Mary Esther. She had charge of the men's
house. She used to tell how he was deaf, and Mother Xavier used to talk to him and the sisters.
But of course, Mother Xavier always went to the poor. She went to those cripples before she
went to us. When she'd come in the house, and she'd seen Melania, of course. And Melania had
to take her round to the different floors. She saw those patients. I don't know how they managed
it. She'd go to all the patients.
Sr. Anna Denise:
And of course those patients, Sister, when they heard they were here, if she wasn’t there, they’d
be sick, they loved her. She'd say to them, "You're suffering for God. You're poor, and you'll get
reward in heaven."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes, and I think knowing that it was coming from her, it meant a great deal to them.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh yes, they loved ... They had nothing else, the poor things. What did they have?
Sr. Francis Maria:
Well, Sister, you've given us a very, very beautiful first-hand…
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, maybe I talked too much.
�Sr. Francis Maria:
No you didn't. Some first-hand personal memories, and you've made me see that House of
Divine Providence in action.
Sr. Anna Denise:
We had nothing. There was one Sister, she used to sew. They didn't have an electric machine.
They had that…
Sr. Francis Maria:
A little foot pedal machine?
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, and she had charge. Of course, there was never anything new. Because I remember one
time, Sister Valentinia, her mop wasn't much good and she threw it out. Now listen to this, Sister
Melania was around, she brought the mop upstairs, she washed it. Sister Valentina went to her
and said, "Sister, have you got any kind of a mop?" She said, "Yeah, here's the one you threw
out."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Oh, she was so careful about poverty.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, you didn't have it. She didn't have it. You had to be careful of everything. And I know one
thing I meant to tell you, this is funny, too. Sister Mary Matthew [Grogan] was there and old
Sister Simeon was there. She had charge of the laundry. She's the one that used to help the sister
with the cancer. And she used to have a day or two that she'd close the laundry and go down and
help. And Mary Matthew was there. But we used to [unintelligible] sewing, and Mary Matthew,
she was very funny.
She'd have a needle, and she had no thread. She had no thread. Sister Melania said, "Mary
Matthew, when are you going to get the thread through the needle?" So she told one of the sisters
to give her the thread, but Sister Melania always put it in a nice way.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes, she went through the motions of sewing.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Yeah, she was nice. And you could go to her. She was like a big mother.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes. Well, your memories are so kind, Sister. And I'm so glad that you were able to recall so
much. Your dates and names.
Sr. Anna Denise:
�They used to tell me when Mother Xavier came, "Oh, the whole house was in glory."
Sr. Francis Maria:
Oh, that's a beautiful way to…
Sr. Anna Denise:
Sister Melania used to give [unintelligible]. Of course, the Sisters, I guess they didn't have much
to put on, a decent cap or something to see Mother.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yeah, I hope you didn't have to wear the cap that you went into the bathtub in.
Sr. Anna Denise:
They’ll think I'm crazy.
Sr. Francis Maria:
That is funny, no.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Of course, we had to have aprons and beads and a cape, and they'd dress up what they had for
Mother Xavier, because the whole place would be lit up when she’d come.
Sr. Francis Maria:
As you said, it was a glory when she came.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, they loved it. Even the patients loved it. She loved the patients because they were poor. She
used to say to the Sisters, "Sisters, they're suffering for God. They have nothing. And when they
go, they go to heaven." And I said one time to Sister Melania, "I hope they're praying for us."
And she said, “Yes, they pray for us."
Sr. Francis Maria:
And I hope they're still praying for us. Sister Anna Denise, I hope that you're praying for our
lovely community.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, I do. I pray every day.
Sr. Francis Maria:
And I thank you so much.
Sr. Anna Denise:
�I thank God I have my brain. I can go in the chapel and pray. And you know the sisters here,
every time… I say, "You think I'm a prayer book, don't you? Will you pray for this one, will you
pray for that." I love to pray. But God is good, Sister. My brain.
Sr. Francis Maria:
God is very good. Your mind is wonderful.
Sr. Anna Denise:
All my life I didn't do anything right, don't you know?
Sr. Francis Maria:
Well, that's the way you see it.
Sr. Anna Denise:
The woman I kept my eyes shut with, that was wrong.
Sr. Francis Maria:
When you gave her the bath?
Sr. Anna Denise:
You had to be told about it.
Sr. Francis Maria:
That was very, very mild. I'm sure that…
Sr. Anna Denise:
I think it was dumb. I said to Sister Melania. "Oh," Sister Melania said, "No, Sister. You were
innocent." At that time…
Sr. Francis Maria:
Well, now, Sister Anna Denise, thank you very much for your memories.
Sr. Anna Denise:
Oh, I kept…
Sr. Francis Maria:
No, you didn't. Will I see you at the picnic in a little while?
Sr. Anna Denise:
No, I'm not going [unintelligible]
Sr. Francis Maria:
You're not going out to the picnic?
�Sr. Anna Denise:
[unintelligible]
Sr. Francis Maria:
All right, well I hope I'll be able to talk to you again. Thank you for sharing.
Sr. Anna Denise:
And I thank you for listening to me.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Oh, I loved it. I had an absolutely beautiful time.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Murphy, Sister Anna Denise, S.C.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C.
Original Format
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cassette tape
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0:32:19
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sister Anna Denise Murphy, S.C. Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Murphy, Sister Anna Denise, S.C.; House of Divine Providence Ridgewood, NJ; Sister M. Melania Crowe; Mount Saint Andrew Villa Ridgewood, NJ; Paterson, NJ, Mother M. Xavier Mehegan
Description
An account of the resource
Description of Sister's early years at the House of Divine Providence; stories of Mother M. Xavier
Creator
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Murphy, Sister Anna Denise, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C.
Source
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Date
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July 6, 1983
Contributor
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Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor)
Rights
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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Audio/mp3
Language
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English
Type
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Oral History
Identifier
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Sister Anna Denise remembers her early years at the House of Divine Providence and recalls stories of Mother M. Xavier
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
July 1983
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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https://scfederationarchives.org/files/original/62a67b748c377578714b73ce51e1af18.mp3
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PDF Text
Text
Interviewer:
Interviewee:
Date:
Editor:
Date edited:
Sister Mary Teresa Orbegozo, SC and Sister Rosanne Caiazzo, SC
Sister Agnes Socorro Ward, SC
January 1980
Sister Noreen Neary, SC
November 10, 2020
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
We had, of course, orphanages. We had, as I recall it, and I may not have the exact number, we
had at least three orphanages and they were big orphanages. You don't remember them, either, I
don't think.
Sr. Rosanne:
I just remember seeing [Saint Mary Orphanage in Newark, NJ]. It was still open when I entered.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Yeah. That's still open.
Sr. Rosanne:
[Saint Joseph’s Orphanage in Totowa, NJ], too.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
And, of course. Then another thing we did, I was young when I came and I went to [Holy Cross
School in Harrison, NJ]. Do you know where Harrison is?
Sr. Rosanne:
Yes, Sister.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
There was an old sister there. She was then fifty years in the community. She taught the first
grade. And one of her duties was that she would go around and visit the sick and the poor, and
lay out the dead. It scared [me] to death laying out the dead. I had to go with her. That was my
assignment. The Sister Servant told you, "Do this, that or whatever."
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
And then, I remember in Harrison going upstairs, that you'd think you'd never get to the top.
They were so shaky. And she would go in. And of course, she was there so long, she knew them
all. And the people knew her and she would ask, as I used to say, she asked them everything.
How much money their husband was making? If he wasn't, why wasn't he working? They took it
from her. She was an old sister and they knew she was interested. And then, in Harrison at the
time, there was Saint Vincent de Paul. Have you read about Saint Vincent de Paul?
Sr. Rosanne:
Yes, Sister.
�Sr. Agnes Socorro:
He had Ladies of Charity. Father Fitzpatrick, who was then in Harrison, founded a group of
women, which you'd call the Vincentians. They could work and make money for the poor, but
they couldn't give out the money. That was up to the sisters. So she would decide, in a way, how
much money these would get and all of that. In Harrison, we collected [unintelligible]. Then if a
child that anybody would [unintelligible] first communion class would [unintelligible]. Such a
one cannot get a first communion dress, we would see that she got it. And things like that.
Now that was working with the poor, well I think, in a way, more intimately than you do today.
And I remember getting into a scrap when somebody said we did nothing for the poor in those
days. Go without dessert, we'd take it over to some poor kid that we knew didn't have any food,
because there was no such thing as lunches in the schools.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
When did you enter the community, Sister?
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
What?
Sr. Mary Teresa:
When did you enter?
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
1912.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
1912.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
So, life was different. I mean, in Saint Vincent, you read about the sisters going around with a
pot of soup. We didn't go around with a pot of soup, but we went around in the same way and
promised them things, like promised them food. And I remember there was one shoe store that if
they were [unintelligible] the poor, for lack of a better word, they could go to that shoe store,
with a pass from sister, and get shoes. Things are done differently today. But it was done in those
days. There's no doubt about that.
Sr. Rosanne:
You entered at a time when there were a couple of major worldwide issues at hand like World
War I.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
World War I started at 1914.
Sr. Rosanne:
�Right. And women's suffrage.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
No, there was no such thing as women's suffrage. They were fighting for it.
Sr. Rosanne:
Fighting for it, right. Were the sisters at all aware of what was happening?
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Oh, they were aware.
Sr. Rosanne:
Yeah.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
But like that, for instance, they were very much aware of World War I. They did a great deal of
knitting and everything like that, all kinds of work. They could not go out as you might go today.
If you're interested in ERA, you'd go around and picket or something. We couldn't do that, of
course. Life was different. We were not exactly cloistered. But no woman…And most women
didn’t, I'll put it that way.
Some women did it, but most women didn't. And people lived more in their homes and life was
altogether different. This is, of course, what goes on in my class, raking up fashions and all of
that. But then in the Civil War, you see, the Sisters of Emmitsburg and some few of our sisters
did go out and nurse in the battlefields. But in World War I you didn't do it. I think, I suppose,
there was more ways of getting it done, but the need was not as great. Now, however, we had the
flu in 1918. You've heard of the flu.
Sr. Rosanne:
Yes.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
That flu. And some of the sisters from here went to [All Souls Hospital in Morristown, NJ] to
help out. Another sister and myself were sent from Harrison to [Saint Elizabeth’s Hospital in
Elizabeth, NJ] to help out. We did things like that. But there was not so much going out of the
community as there had been in the Civil War. That was a different setup. Know what I mean?
Sr. Rosanne:
Mm-hmm Yeah. The Congregation then did impress upon you always the Vincentian spirit.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
�Oh, yes. You were there for the poor. In fact, when I was missioned in the [Academy of Saint
Elizabeth] here, I was in the old generation. You don't remember that, either, but you've heard of
us. I was there. And then I was brought up to the Academy and I…Oh, I was in a terrible state. I
didn't come to work for the rich, I came to work for the poor. And here I was. No, you were
working for the poor. It was impressed on you that you did without, because if this mission that
you were on could succeed in saving some money, it was turned right into the Motherhouse for
the poor. That's in the old Rule. Hope they have some of those old Rules around some place.
Because I mean, this is going to come up – we’re working on the history of the community.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
And life was different. Now, things are different in you might go out now and get a job and turn
your salary in to the community, for the work of the community. But in going out there, you
have to live accordingly and dress accordingly. You don't go without the way the others say. If a
Sister gave music lessons and every mission had a Sister giving music lessons…You had them in
[Waterbury, CT] too, maybe not in your day, but…You had one lovely saintly woman there. But
anyway, that money was not used for that local community. That was sent right to the
Motherhouse. So, you see this is all part of life, as we knew it. It's different today. It has to be.
Life has changed every place.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
I would not say that women were involved in women's rights as they could be today, because of
our life. You might be interested, you might want it and all of that, but our life was such. You
don't remember when since you could go home. When I first came to the community, if you went
home, you had to be back. You couldn't eat at home. But this was not just our community. This
was every community. You couldn't eat at home. No more than you could sleep at home, of
course. If then you had to be back in the convent at a certain time in the evening, and that did not
change, that time in the evening until about 15 years ago. You remember Sister [unintelligible].
When she was a novice she fought for that. Sisters have a longer time in the evening so they
could get to know their fathers. They never saw their fathers. They had to be back so soon.
So you see, I suppose some of these things were things that were brought from European
communities where life was different. And you see, I know. I have visited. There's one French
community in Ireland. They bought a big, old estate and they care for epileptic children. They
can never go home, or they couldn't when I was there. This was maybe 10 years ago. But their
whole family could come and stay right in the convent, which was... You see? But we had no
way of putting up a whole family in the convent. We didn't have these big estates. I don't what
other social issue besides women's rights was...Sister Mary Cecilia would tell you all the things
she knitted, both in World War I and World War II.
Sr. Rosanne:
What about Mother Xavier, Sister?
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
�Well, I didn't know her that well. She was an old, old sister when I came. Very short and very
frail looking. And her office was where that new council room is, there in the front of the
building. Her bedroom was where Sister Mary Canavan's office now is. You know that room.
She slept there with Sister Mary Virginia [Burke]. They did not allow her to sleep alone because
then she was very old. She was very, very rigid. There's no doubt about that. And I suppose in
her way, it was a carry-over from the other communities. You know what I mean?
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
She did not see the Irish communities going home and things like that. So she never went home
herself. In fact, Sister Agnes Paula [Conefrey] used to tell the story that she was going home [to
Ireland] about 1908 and Sister Mary Madeleine [Bull] was with her. And they were out in New
York harbor on the boat. And Sister Mary Madeleine was down in the stateroom saying her
rosary. And Sister said to her, "Will you come up? I want to see the skyline of New York. I’ll
never see it again at night." "No, I won't," she said. "Oh, please, do! I’ll say the Rosary all the
way across the Atlantic if you come up. Come on." "No," she said. "I won't. I will stay here until
we start because we might get sent for to come back."
But the first Assistant Mother, Sister Mary Catherine [Nevin], was extremely kind. And I think
she was kind of a buffer. You know what I mean? She took care of the kindness part of it, so that
the sisters did not feel the rigidness that Mother had. And the next Assistant Mother, [Mother
Mary Cecilia Casey], who was later the second Mother, Mother Cecilia was extremely kind. But
Mother Xavier used to sit in the back of the chapel in the corner there by the twelfth station. I
suppose they put her in there to get her out of the drafts. You see, that chapel was barely finished
when I entered. They put her there in the corner and she sat there. She had her little prie dieu
there. But she was at Mass each and every morning. It was six o’clock in those days. I remember
we were… [Sister Rose Vincentia Bradley] who entered with me…there were five of us, seven
of us came from Ireland together. [Sister Mary Alphonsine Coffey] was one of them and Sister
Rose Vincentia. They’re both at [Saint Anne Villa] Sister Rose Vincentia and myself, Mother
Xavier considered too young to enter. We were 14.
She told Sister Virginia Clare and [Sister Francis Xavier Edgeworth] that we would go to [Saint
Vincent Academy in Newark, NJ]. And she would see us later on. The others entered. But she
sent for us eventually, sometime during the fall, and we came up and there was an old Sister.
And I often wish I knew her name, just for the sake of knowing it. She met us up in the hall and
she said, "Now, when you go in, Mother Xavier will say to you, ‘Isn’t this place more beautiful
than Ireland?’ And be sure to say, ‘Yes.’" Now, there was a lawyer here last week who said she
was a shrewd woman.
She came here, as you know from the history, with five dollars. She had bought that place from
Seton Hall and they didn't give it to her. She bought it for plenty, it cost her plenty. But bit by bit
she bought up all this bits of land. And she wanted them. And she had her reasons for wanting.
There's one now that they want to sell that opens onto Columbia Road because she felt it would
be for the good of the community if we had an opening on Columbia Road.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
You'll enjoy this. This lawyer came up and I had to speak to him and he was saying… He said to
me, "Well, when you were novices and you went down there in the farm and so on, could you
�see the cars on Columbia Road?" I said, "The cars?" He said, "Yes, the automobiles." I said, but
there weren't any automobiles in 1920. So, life was slower. I don't know how much formal
education she had. But I believe I once asked. But she had an Irish education. And I'm not saying
this because I'm Irish. It was a very superior kind of education. They had more of a respect for
education than the other people of the world because they couldn't have it. What we can't have,
we want. And I think that she could use that education to further the work of this community.
She built this house and there was no money. It's a good built building. It's still standing after
over 100 years. I look at the trouble they're having with some of these other buildings.
So she was, as he said, she was a shrewd business woman. And one wonders where she got that
because she did not have any training in this life. They said before she entered [Mount Saint
Vincent in New York], she made her living by sewing. So where did she get this? She said it was
God's work, all right.
Sr. Rosanne:
Her value for education too, I think.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Oh, yes.
Sr. Rosanne:
You pointed out, in the beginning of the [College of Saint Elizabeth].
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Yeah, she allowed them to begin the college. And there were many people in the community
against it. They didn't want it started. They thought it shouldn't be done at all. They tried to talk
her out of it. A certain faction in the community. But she insisted. She didn't do it quickly, either,
if you notice. She took her good time to think it out. And then she started it. And she educated
the sisters. Even in those days when, as I say, you couldn't go home and you couldn't eat at
home, things like that. What was her name?… [Sister Helen Angela Dorety] Yeah, it was a long
time ago. But she sent her out to the University of Chicago for her biology. And they say nobody
ever was anyone like Helen Angela with the education she got in biology. She was the one who
founded that whole department. I'm not saying that we haven't had good ones since, but this is
Mother Xavier's choice. [Sister Marie Jose Byrne] was allowed to go to Columbia for Latin, so
that she was far-seeing. It wasn't just the moment she was looking at. And while we entered and
you were... In my day, now this had changed in various times, we were postulants three months.
We were novices a year, and then we were sent out.
We didn't have that much education, you know. But on every mission you were on there was an
older sister would take you in the afternoon for [teaching] methods. And you would go out on
Saturdays to class. And you came up here every summer to get [state teacher’s certification]. So
she foresaw all these things and knew they were needed. [unintelligible] You wonder, as I say,
how she did it and why she did it. And she was very wise in her own way and all of that. So I
would say that she had a great vision for the Congregation. There's no doubt about that, in every
way. And in after years that they closed, for instance, the orphanages; that's one of my big
disputes, that we closed the orphanages. I'd rather have a child in an orphanage than in a foster
�home. The way they abuse them in foster homes. Of course, this is my opinion, of course. And
look at the cost of [unintelligible] Saint Joseph's Hospital [in Paterson, NJ] like it is today.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
I remember Saint Joseph's Hospital when it was a little bit of a frame house. And she encouraged
them to build the [House of Divine Providence and Home for Incurables in Ridgewood, NJ] that
was supposed to be for the dying and the incurables. Now it has turned into a home for the aged.
Because if you have it as a home for the dying, it would require a number of nurses and all that.
But she founded that. Look at the land she bought up there. And she built that. And I don't know
if it’s in Sister Mary Agnes's book [The New Jersey Sisters of Charity by Sister Mary Agnes
Sharkey, S.C.] or not. I must look it up some time. Have you ever been in the present home that's
up there?
Sr. Rosanne:
Mount Saint Andrew's?
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Yes.
Sr. Rosanne:
Yes, many times.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Well, the old home was across the street that burnt down while this one was in the state of
building. But right down at the foot of the new one, you know what I mean by the new one, the
one that's there now, there was a cottage which she bought. In those days, there was a great
amount of [tuberculosis] in this community, as there was every place. And of course we lived so
close, living in the dormitories, and people got it. And there was in Philadelphia a Doctor Walsh
who was very, very famous for his TB treatments.
And she would send the sisters to him and he had a sanitarium in White Haven in the Poconos.
So she decided that she was going to buy this bit of land and this cottage that was up for sale in
Ridgewood. And, she did. And when I went up there, I'd say, roughly speaking about 1960, I
used to walk there with a sister. She was the only child. Her parents had a farm up there. I must
go back to Bergen County sometime because all I remember about Bergen County is walking
through fields and fields and fields and never seeing a person.
I would have to go home with her in the morning. She couldn't go home herself. And she would
work with them all day. And I would sit in the house. And they were very, very good to me.
There was a place that I could lie down. I was only a kid. I wasn’t interested in lying down. And
I'd have a book or something. But she bought this place and there was the famous bluegrass of
Kentucky. He had been a horseman. He had the bluegrass in the yard. At that time, that was
roughly speaking, 1918, there must've been five or six sisters there. They took care of
themselves. They even wrote their own death notices. I know. Think of that.
�They didn't put the date in, but on the old death notice her name had to be filled in and where
you died. They even did that. Oh, and they were talking the other day about some [Sister Rose
Bernard Brennan] who’d just come to [Saint Anne Villa] last week. I said, the first one [Sister
Rose Bernard Ryan] was the most beautiful person I ever saw. She was beautiful.
[unintelligible]. [Mother Xavier’s] plan was to have our own sanitarium up there. In the old Villa
[at Convent Station], on that porch that faces the cemetery, notice on the second floor, there's a
screened-in porch.
For a while [Mother Xavier] had TB sisters there, sleeping all together in the one porch and all of
that. She saw that as a need. So, you see, as time went on, there was no further need because they
felt TB was conquered, you know. We got rid of the place in Ridgewood. But she saw to things
like that.
Sr. Rosanne:
See that whole area there is Paramus, which is a fairly new community, where Mount Saint
Andrew is. It was Ridgewood.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
It was Ridgewood, at that time, yes.
Sr. Rosanne:
So I didn't realize that she had acquired that area up there. I mean, it was during her time.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
It was during her time she acquired that. And, you see, the place I stayed in was the old house.
And they were old, old people there. They went there... I suppose something like the Little
Sisters of the Poor today, you went there and that was it. You died there. And there were people
there, wonderful sisters, who just lived for their work.
The thing is that this is a busy day because of the college coming back. They have to come into
this house and greet the girls.
Sr. Rosanne:
Oh. I see. That's right. The girls are [unintelligible]. Sister Mary Teresa, do you have any other
questions?
Sr. Mary Teresa:
Well, I think this is the main thing I wanted to ask.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Mother Cecilia was a big woman, as big as [Sister Mary Carita Pendergast]. Dark. An Irish
beauty. And, of course, we had the old cap.
And in those days the Mother went out in the morning after Mass. The Mother went out of the
chapel first, followed by the Assistant Mother, followed by every officer. And we were new in
�the transept there, you know. The novices sat in the transept and we said [Sister Mary Cecilia
Casey] was Mother Xavier's guardian angel. I never called her anything else
Sr. Rosanne:
It was interesting, when you mentioned Sister Mary Catherine [Nevin] as being kind. Because
when I entered Sister Mary Catherine…
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Oh, not this Sister Mary Catherine.
Sr. Rosanne:
No, I know that. She was also the Assistant Mother when I knew her.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Mary Catherine?
Sr. Rosanne:
[Sister Catherine Mary McHale] from Boston. But that's who I think when you talk about the
[unintelligible] for the sisters.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
She was a very kind woman.
Sr. Rosanne:
Yeah.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
But as I said, life was different. And to me, I'm old. They should know that. The changes don't
get me down. The same things get me down that would get me down sixty years ago, people are
not doing the right thing. But the changes don't get me down. If you're doing the right thing, all
right, you've changed. We never changed. That's life. And there were a great many changes in
the community. And I think we have to realize that in their day, they were doing more, I think in
a way, than we do today in a different way. They couldn't go out the doors. They had to do it
from the inside out.
For instance, Sunday, you had Sunday school classes in the morning. You counted the money in
the afternoon, the parish money. You had then maybe a couple of days a week, you'd have to go
to someplace three or four miles away to teach Sunday school. And it was not an easy life. I
survived, so it couldn’t have been too… But I mean, you have to realize that you're not
comparing. I don't like comparing and saying we're doing more today than then, or they did more
then. No, I don't think you should compare. I think you should know it, as we lived it.
Sr. Rosanne:
So true.
�Sr. Agnes Socorro:
But then now there's some people, and Sister Carita agreed with me on this, the last meeting we
had, some people who say that Mary Agnes's book is inaccurate. Sister Carita agreed with me
that it is not inaccurate. There are misprints. She said, "I think she was inaccurate in this way." A
man's name, whether it was John or James, meant nothing to her. She would quickly write down
Mr. John and it might've been Mr. James. But the main things are right, because I have read it
twice lately. There are a few dates and I think they're misprints. For instance, somebody posted a
picture. The old Nazareth [novitiate] that I entered, that it was destroyed in 1909. And I said to
[Sister Hildegarde Marie Mahoney], who happened to be standing there at the same time, I said,
it couldn't have been. I lived in it. The old Nazareth was... Remember where the men's house
was?
It was on that spot. It was an old frame house that had been the first boys' house [Saint Joseph’s
School]. And this is another thing [unintelligible]. [Mother Xavier] sent Sister Mary Paula to
Europe to study painting and art. This was roughly speaking, 1909 or 1910.
And the boys said to me, maybe this isn't a nice word. I call her shrewd. [Mother Xavier] sent
her to Europe. I'm not sure of the date. Was either 1909 or 1910. It was before I entered. All
right. She sent with her Sister Mary Julia [Donovan]. Mary Julia had been in another community.
She entered a Black community in Baltimore. But that makes no difference.
Speaker 3:
Was she a Black sister?
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
No, no. But there were a few other whites entered at the time, but she thought this would be a
wonderful sacrifice, you see. She was from Beverly Farms [Massachusetts], outside of Salem.
And the Donovans were fairly comfortable. She has a nephew in the Jesuits. He was implicated
in this seismograph business and all of that. But anyway, she sent Sister Mary Julia with her to
make her study the novitiates in Europe. And one of the things that we know of, she came back
and she said that in Europe, and I'm telling the story badly, but before this, the novitiate was in
this building. When they built convent wing, we've been sure where that is, the novitiate had a
big room, like a big community room, was on the first floor over there. And the novices slept up
through the house and corners, wherever. But Sister Mary Julia found out that in Europe, the
novitiate was on the motherhouse grounds, but in a separate building. And that's what it should
be. Therefore, almost immediately, the boys’ house, the new boys’ house, which is now that
school for... You know, the one I mean… was built. And the reason that was built. There's a
sister, [Sister Mary Casimir Reynolds]. You wouldn't know her because she was in Salem for
years. She was a saint out of heaven. She was one of the tobacco Reynolds. So when her father
died, she got quite a legacy. So it was used to build the new boys’ house. My generation calls
that the new boys’ house. So the boys were out. She took the boys all together out of the old
boys’ house, moved them over there. The old boys’ house was turned into a novitiate. And Sister
Mary Julia was made the mistress. So that that was another thing that...
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason said something to me, "Were you taught about the history of the
community by your mistress?" I said, “Well, I didn't have a mistress in the early days.” Because
Sister Mary Julia was one of these who had to be sent away when she got TB. So that she was up
in White Haven and there were a couple of women brought in to be Mistress of Novices and they
�could not see it because we had to come up, all kinds of weather, to do the charges, to wait on
table. And waiting on table meant wait for a six o’clock supper, as well. And we’d go down in
the evenings and there was an old fellow around then, who would have an old sled and he'd give
us a ride on that. It was a big sled with a horse. But they didn't think that this was wise. So that
was when she built [Nazareth novitiate] that was torn down [in 1978]. She built that because that
way we would be in keeping with what they were doing in Europe. It would be a separate
building on the motherhouse grounds. And that was what they found they had to do when they
opened Harper's. Harper's is the present novitiate.
You see, of course I blame it on my family. My grandfather lived with us. And if my grandfather
was talking, we had to keep quiet. He was my mother's father, but my father would be very
insistent that we listen to what he said. So then when I came to the community, that was
ingrained in me. And I listened to the older sisters. So some of these things I've gotten from the
older sisters. We've had a great many wakes at Convent. And [Sister Mary Rosalita Hyland]. Do
you remember Sister Rosalita?
She was a music teacher, beautiful woman.
Every wake she was in the corner, and I was Circle Angel, so I could be... The Circle Angel was
the Sister of Charity to the Academy girls, supposed not to teach. I'd be free during the day, and
I’d go in and [unintelligible] and sit there at the wakes. And she would tell me more, things like
that. So that some of these things are hearsay to me. So, for instance, she told, me, you don't
remember our old dining room was where the sculleries are now.
See, they built the new one [unintelligible] the 100th anniversary [unintelligible]. And that
dining room... I call them the music rooms because when I entered all of these other rooms were
music rooms and they were here. Then there was a passageway. And then there was the dining
room. What Sister Rosalita told me that, before the chapel was built, there was no corridor there.
These sisters slept in these bedrooms, [Sister Mary Honora Foy] and some people that were
wonderful women. They slept in these bedrooms right off the dining room. The kitchen was in
the basement.
And some of the older Irish sisters would tell us the way they had to work when they came. I'm
not saying the others didn't now, but they were speaking for themselves, the way they had to
work in the kitchen and whatnot. And when I entered, there were all sisters in the kitchen. We
were saying that only the other night. Again, how old the sister... The Sister Rose Bernard who
has come to the Villa now had charge. She was in the novitiate with [Mother Josephine Marie
O’Brien]. She said she had charge of the dairy down here in the kitchen.
And I said, “Do people remember Sister Honora?” She was a wonderful woman, she had charge
of the kitchen. These people had no education. But when we were in the old Juniorate, if I asked
[Sister Mary Stephanie Bird], who was in charge of the kitchen, for a leg of lamb, she’d say, well
now, I'll give you this size and this will feed so many people. Now I’ll bet you the man that's
getting a big salary down there couldn't tell you that. These people had had no education. So that
God took care of His own. That's the only way you can account for it.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
That's beautiful, Sister. That's beautiful.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
�But as I say now, don't start out to compare. We were not better than. Maybe individually, some
of them were better than, because I have lived with saints. I've lived with real saints in this
community. But it's just individuals that were better.
Sr. Mary Teresa:
Yes. Thank you, Sister, for the time you gave us. We wanted to take some pictures, somewhere
there.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
You don't want a picture of me. That wasn't on, was it?
Sr. Mary Teresa:
Yeah.
Sr. Agnes Socorro:
Oh, my goodness.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ward, Sister Agnes Socorro, S.C.
Interviewer
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Orbegozo, Sister Mary Teresa , S.C.; Caiazzo, Sister Rosanne , S.C.
Original Format
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cassette tape
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0:37:11
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sister Agnes Socorro Ward, S.C. Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Ward, Sister Agnes Socorro, S.C.; Mother M. Xavier Mehegan; Holy Cross School, Harrison, NJ; Convent Station, NJ; tuberculosis; Ireland
Description
An account of the resource
Description of Sister's early years in Harrison and at Convent Station; stories of Mother M. Xavier
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ward, Sister Agnes Socorro, S.C.; Orbegozo, Sister Mary Teresa , S.C.; Caiazzo, Sister Rosanne , S.C.
Source
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Date
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January 1980
Contributor
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Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor)
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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Audio/mp3
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English
Type
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Oral History
Identifier
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Sister Agnes Socorro Ward remembers her early years as a Sister of Charity and recalls stories of Mother M. Xavier
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
January 1980
Education
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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PDF Text
Text
Interviewer:
Interviewee:
Date:
Editor:
Date edited:
Sister Francis Maria Cassidy, SC
Sister Mary Josepha Murphy, SC
July 1, 1983
Sister Noreen Neary, SC
November 6, 2020
Sr. Francis Maria:
I'm visiting down at Saint Anne Villa with Sr. Mary Josepha. We're sitting in a very bright room.
Is this the back of the house, Sister? On the back of the house…is a very pretty pink spread on a
pretty blue bed and all around is color and brightness, and of course, the brightest thing in the
room is Sister herself. Sister was an [inaudible]. [Archbishop Robert Seton] was at Convent
Station in his retirement and she had the privilege, and I think she regards it as a privilege, of
serving him in the dining room. And she's agreed to recall a few of her memories. Sister, what
year did you become a Sister of Charity?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
January 6, 1926. And the day I got the habit, I went to take care of the Archbishop, and I was
with him until he died, that one full year. I always considered the Archbishop a lonely person
with no friends, except the college girls [students at the College of Saint Elizabeth] who were
very nice to him. And they used to take walks with him sometimes on the grounds. He was very
thin, medium height, white hair, a long nose, just points for teeth. He was a very quiet man, wellspoken, courteous. Always wore a cassock with a cape edged in red and a red skull cap. I think
he was quite eccentric in his thoughts and words. Although he was 87 years old, beginning to get
a little senile, he never missed saying Mass. I had nothing outstanding in my dealings with the
Archbishop, except maybe a few interesting and humorous incidents.
For instance, we had rules and customs that if we were in a room with a member of the other sex,
we must [never] close the door. Well, our Mistress of Novices came over one day to see how I
was [inaudible] me.
Sr. Francis Maria:
What was the door?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
The door out to the room where I used to sit and wait for him and then a door out into the hall;
there were two doors.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Up to his room?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
No, no, downstairs in his private dining room. So the next day, I opened the door a few inches,
the Archbishop noticed it and said, "Close that door." So I went over and I closed the door with a
bang and then opened it softly; his back was to the door and he didn't notice.
�Sr. Francis Maria:
You played a trick on him.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
I really pleased everyone.
Sr. Francis Maria:
It's still there?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
It's the dining room in the front hall. As you come in the main front door, to the left there's a
small room that I used to sit in and then a very large dining room that was his room, no one else
used it. Downstairs, that was his room, no one else used that room. I had to tell the chef each day
what to prepare for him. So I'd ask him and I'd say, "Now, Your Grace, what do you want for
dinner tomorrow?" And he never called me Sister. "Josepha, a gentlemen eats to live, he doesn't
live to eat," so he'd never tell me. Then he usually had like mashed sweet potatoes, which he
called Carolinas, with a poached egg. And this day he said, "Take this back to the chef, it's
terrible." So I took it into the next little room, put it on the radiator, took a fork, mixed it up a bit
and took it back.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
He had it at noon time and he had his dinner at night, and he always came dressed for dinner
with his white cuffs, and that was dinner. Now, I'd bring him a tray at noon time, then I would go
back. He would like to detain me, but I used to try to get out as fast as I could. One day he was
down and his dictation, I had to write into his, what was it?
Sr. Francis Maria:
His diary.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
His diary. And a few weeks ago, 57 years later, I read it, his dictation with my name signed to it,
Novice, that I would promise to take care of him, et cetera, I forget what the rest said. And also,
sometimes, when I would go back for the tray, he wouldn't be there, but it'd have a note on it. I
can remember one note in particular that the soup tastes like dishwater, but sometimes he liked
his lunch, but sometimes. But he'd leave a note and I kept putting them in my very large pocket.
And one day I'm in the classroom, cleaning out my pocket and [Sr. Rita Dolores Simons] came
in and said, "Oh, you're cleaning your desk?" I said, "No, my pocket." She said, "Well, what's
this?" I said, "It's Arch...", so she gathered them all up and put them in the basket. I probably
would have done the same.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Wouldn't it be nice if we had them today?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
�They were his writing.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sister Josepha, when you brought him his tray, you brought that up to his bedroom?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
Yes. He had a bedroom and a sitting room.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes, would you tell us where that was?
Sr. Francis Maria:
Sister Josepha, toward the close of his life, I believe that the Archbishop had an accident and
then became ill. Would you tell us something about what you remember of his illness and his
death?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
Yes, he broke his hip and the complications set in. And this particular day [Sister Mary Ellen
Mangan] said, "Don't go to class today, we're going over to see the Archbishop." So we went
over and in his room that he used as his living room, a sitting room, there were a group of sisters
were sitting in there, just outside of his bedroom. And when we went into his bedroom, [Mother
Mary Alexandrine Jackson] was there and a nurse sitting beside his bed. Now, Mother
Alexandrine and Sr. Mary Ellen blessed him with Holy Water. They came over and told me to sit
beside his bed until I was sent for. So that was about three o'clock in the afternoon. And I sat
there until six. And during that time, he came to once and he spoke, but I couldn't understand
what he said. But the nurse leaned down and said, "He recognized you and he wants you to hold
his hand." "Oh," I said, "I couldn't do that, I'm a novice." But she said, "He's an old man and he's
dying."
Well, he died the next morning, about 10 o'clock. And that evening, the day he died, I was on my
way back to the novitiate from the dining hall. The sisters met me in the hall and took a hold of
me by the arm and said, "Oh, come on, come into the parlor there, the Archbishop's body is
going to be in review." So I went in the parlor with them and there were about 25 professed
sisters standing there, the folding doors were closed, and I was a little nervous, being a novice, I
felt I didn't belong there, especially when I saw Sr. Rita, who was over the education in the
novitiate. Finally, the folding doors opened and Sr. Rita Dolores said, "We'll let his friend go in
and kneel and say the first prayer." So I went in, and I still remember how he was laid out on a
couch. He was in a lace alb with a skull cap on, and beside him, there was a large vase, a very
tall vase, with American beauty roses in.
Sr. Francis Maria:
That was a lovely tribute, wasn't it, to be called Archbishop Seton's friend? Mother Seton must
have loved you. You became more familiar with Mother Seton as the years went on.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
�I didn't tell about going to Rome, did I?
Sr. Francis Maria:
No, would you tell us a little something about the beatification, Sister?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
Well, the Archbishop used to speak about Mother Seton, but I didn't know too much about
Mother Seton until I went out on a mission, and I really listened to him very politely, and he
spoke frequently of his parents, also. But I didn't recall…he used to talk about Seton annex that
he was so happy that that was named after his grandmother. Also, he gave a desk, told me about
the desk he gave to Mother Alexandrine that had belonged to Mother Seton. Now, when I went
out on a mission and I read and knew about the canonization of Mother Seton, and we received
word from the provincials that they would send one from each province. And if she was
interested, just send her name in.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Now, Sister, this would have been in the 1960s, so it was probably the beatification, was it?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
No, it was the canonization.
Sr. Francis Maria:
It was the canonization?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
In 1975.
Sr. Francis Maria:
I see.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
It was the canonization.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Did you not go to the beatification?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
I didn't go to the beatification because the principal of the school I was in [Sister Mary Angelina
Meyers of Saint Cecilia School, Englewood, NJ] wanted very much to go, and she asked me. She
said if I went she felt she couldn't go, so I didn't go. But later at the canonization, I didn't think
much, when they said someone, if you want to put your name in. But one day when I was on my
way to school with my books in my hand, I walked past the telephone booth and I just had an
inspiration. I went in and called [Sister Therese Dorothy Leland]. I said, "Sister Therese, would
�you put my name in that basket for the canonization of Mother Seton?" Then I went on to school
and said a little prayer; I said, "Now, Mother Seton, you know I took care of your grandson the
last year of his life, so maybe you could send me to the canonization.”
Sr. Mary Josepha:
Nights later, the telephone rang at 10 o'clock. Sister said, "It is Sr. Therese Dorothy." Ooh, I said,
"What would she ever want me for at 10 o'clock at night?" So I went to the telephone and Sr.
Therese said, "Are you seated?" I said, "Yes." She said, "You won the trip to Rome." So I feel
that Mother Seton sent me.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Do you pray for Archbishop Seton, Sister? Do you think about him sometimes?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
I do think about him, but I don't say that I pray too much, but I do once in a while. When I think
of Mother Seton and that's…I never think of Mother Seton without thinking of the Archbishop.
And he would speak to me about his father; I wish I had paid more attention to it. But I never
considered it a bother. And I was never impatient with him.
Sr. Francis Maria:
That's a nice memory. Sister, I know that you didn't encourage long conversations with him
because your Mistress of Novices certainly gave you your orders, I'm sure about that. But apart
from the things you've already told us, do you ever remember any little things that he said to you
or anything you said to him or did for him?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
Well, I had very many interesting and humorous things we used to talk about them when I went
over to the novitiate. I don't think I spoke about the dessert, did I?
Sr. Francis Maria:
No.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
No. He used to want me to sit down and have dessert with him, which I never did. This particular
evening, he had delicious cake and he tried hard to have me sit down, but I didn't do it. After he
left, [Sister Ursulina McKeon] came over from the other side to help me carry his dishes over.
But before we did it, we finished the cake. And also Sr. Francis Maria:
Do you remember that dessert, I suppose, better than almost any other dessert?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
Oh, yeah, I always remember. It was the only time I ever ate his dessert. Did I talk about the
notes…I did…on the tray?
�Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes, you did. You told us about the notes that he used to leave for you on the tray, and how we
wish we had them today.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
When I went in for his tray one day, he asked me to go into the next room and get him a brush
and wet it and a hand mirror. I said to myself, "Well, now, if he wants me to brush his hair, I'm
not going to do it." I went out, and I held the mirror up and he said, "You have a spot on your
cape. Now, you know, when you wait on the Archbishop, you mustn't have any spots.” Well, I
removed my spot, picked up his tray and returned with it.
Sr. Francis Maria:
He was very fastidious. Now, did you ever attend his Mass, Sister, in the chapel?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
Oh, yes. I went to his Mass and when we were, and one time in particular, there were four of us
in the band, four postulants. And I guess Sr. Mary Ellen didn't know what to do with us this time,
she said, "Go over to the Archbishop's Mass." He said the Mass on Our Lady's altar, way over to
the side. When he turned around, he was very happy to see that he had an audience…he didn't
usually. And I think it was the Feast of St. Peter's Chair at Rome, because he saw when he had an
audience, he gave us a homily. Now, we were kind of young and just entered, and we really
giggled a little bit, we thought it was quite something for him to give us a homily. We went back
to the novitiate, we told Sr. Mary Ellen we giggled, and she said, "Well, that was all right."
Sr. Francis Maria:
She was understanding. But he did like the young, didn't he, Sister? I think that he didn't like the
idea of growing old himself; no one does. But I think he liked to surround himself with the
young and the happy.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
He was always happy if the college girls would stop and talk to him and sometimes they'd walk
around the grounds with him. And they were very, very kind to him. Even occasionally they
went into his living room and he showed them different things that he had, but that was his real.
Oh, he liked [Mother Mary Benita Kane]. Now, Mother Benita was a librarian then in the big
library. And he used to get the Times every day. And I used to give it to Mother Benita when he
finished the Times. But he did like Mother Benita; she was Sr. Benita then.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes. Well, that's a very nice thing to recall. Sister, you said he used to walk with the college
girls. I know his diary mentions many times the girls coming to visit him and he'd mention them
by name and he would look out the window and see the [Academy of Saint Elizabeth] girls
returning and he'd feel lonesome when they'd leave at the end of the summer. Also, I think they
used to escort him to movies that were held over in the auditorium. Did he ever speak to you
about being lonely?
�Sr. Mary Josepha:
Yes, because he'd say that he would try to stop people to give them, and they would just go right
by. And we did have little conversations, never too long. But another time it really didn't, no one
just sympathizes with it, but he had these points for teeth. And one time he called me because he
bit his lip and it was bleeding and he wanted me to look at it and he said, "Now, look at it, feel
it." I said, "No, I don't have to feel it, Your Grace, I can see it." But you see, he was just looking
for a little sympathy.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Yes. He was probably a little frightened, too, and wanted someone to give him a little bit of
attention and take care of that for him. And you were so sweet and young with him. Now, Sister,
did he use a cane?
Sr. Mary Josepha:
No. He didn't use any cane, he used to shuffle along. You could hear him come along the hall
shuffling. But if I remember rightly, I don't think he had eyeglasses. I'm sure he didn't have
eyeglasses and he didn't use a cane. He walked slowly. He used to go to Morristown once in a
while, and he'd hire a car and take him to Morristown and he'd come back with boxes of candy
and jars of jelly for me to put away for him. And one time he gave me a half a pound of candy.
He said, "I'd give you a pound, but I know the Mistress of Novices will take it from you." So,
you know, although we had plenty of candy in the novitiate. Every once in a while, he'd give me
a book and different things and I hesitated and I said, "Sr. Mary Ellen, what will I do if he
wants?" She said, "You take anything he gives you."
Sr. Francis Maria:
He knew all about the inner workings of the things, but he was kind.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
He was very kind.
Sr. Francis Maria:
He was lonely.
Sr. Mary Josepha:
He just wanted a little attention and someone to speak to him.
Sr. Francis Maria:
Well, thank you, Sr. Josepha, for sharing those memories of Archbishop Seton with us. They're
memories, of course, that no one but yourself has. There are other sisters who remember other
things, but these are your personal memories of him. Thank you very much, Sister.
�
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station
Oral History
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Interviewee
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Murphy, Sister Mary Josepha, S.C.
Interviewer
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Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C.
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0:17:36
Dublin Core
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Title
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Sister Mary Josepha Murphy, S.C. Oral History
Subject
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Murphy, Sister Mary Josepha, S.C.; Mother Seton; Archbishop Robert Seton
Description
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Description of Sister's interactions with Archbishop Robert Seton during her novitiate year
Creator
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Murphy, Sister Mary Joseph, S.C.; Cassidy, Sister Francis Maria, S.C.
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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July 1, 1983
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Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor)
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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English
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Oral History
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Sister M. Josepha Murphy describes her interactions with Archbishop Seton
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July 1, 1983
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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Text
Interviewer:
Interviewee:
Date:
Editor:
Date edited:
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason, SC
Sister Louis Marie Bryan, SC
January 26, 1998
Sister Noreen Neary, SC
October 28, 2020
Sister Mary Ellen: Sister Louis, perhaps we could talk about the educational preparation
that the sisters who volunteered to serve in the Virgin Islands received.
Sister Louis Marie:
That is not exactly an easy question for me to answer. [I enrolled in] Saints Peter and Paul
School [in Saint Thomas, Virgin Islands] in 1933 and my first encounter with the sisters was to
have them prepare me for first communion with Sister Gertrude Agnes [Goode]. I was in the
public schools, first and second grades. And in third grade, I went to Sts. Peter and Paul
School and was educated by the Sisters of Charity from third grade to eighth grade.
My experience with the sisters was that they were excellent teachers. They were excellently
prepared to give me what was truly a grammar school education, not just elementary. And I
know that because the reading and writing skills, particularly that they taught me, have lasted
me my entire life. I remember learning how to diagram sentences and to really understand
how to read and how to write, to comprehend whatever you read and to write, perfect
grammar. We graduated in eighth grade and we had only from first to eighth grade in
those days.
And when I left Catholic school, we went to the one public high school in the Virgin
Islands…in St. Thomas, the Charlotte Amalie High School. And those of us who had
come up from Sts. Peter and Paul were head and shoulders above the majority of the
class. That's not to say the others weren't well educated, but we seemed to have been a
touch above the public school. And we had excellent teachers in the public high school,
excellent. So that when we went on from there to the college, we were very well
prepared. But as everyone knows, the preparation has to begin in elementary school and
grammar school. So, to answer your question, my guess would be based on my
experience that they were eminently well prepared.
Sister Mary Ellen: I see. Then, when did you leave the Virgin Islands? Was it
immediately after high school?
Sister Louis Marie: You mean for entrance into the community? Or what?
Sister Mary Ellen: Even before entrance…
Sister Louis Marie: OK, I left the Virgin Islands in 1945. And graduated from high
school in June 1945 and left the islands in August 1945.
1
�Sister Mary Ellen: I see. And then you came to the United States…I mean to study…
Sister Louis Marie:
I began my undergraduate education at New York University, the School of Education in
Washington Square, NY, but that I had to terminate the beginning of the second
semester freshman year because I had a serious eye problem which flared up and I had
to withdraw from school for half a year. In September 1946 I transferred to the
undergraduate college of liberal arts at Howard University in Washington, DC and
studied there with a major in sociology and a minor in economics, then graduated cum
laude in 1949 with an AB in Liberal Arts, Sociology.
Sister Mary Ellen: OK, and then I know you entered the congregation in the 1950s, so
there's a gap…
Sister Louis Marie: There is…
Sister Mary Ellen Gleason: So, were you out working…at that time? Or did you do more
studying? Did you…
Sister Louis Marie:
Well, immediately on graduation from Howard University College of Liberal Arts, I
returned to the Virgin Islands and worked as a child welfare worker in the Department
of Social Welfare. Then I realized that I wanted to do social work, but I didn't have
nearly the educational preparation to do that. I had been assigned as a child welfare
worker to work with dependent or neglected or delinquent children…a mixed bag. And I
loved the children, but I felt so inadequate to their needs. At the same time, the
government of the Virgin Islands was just getting the extension of the public assistance
program to the islands and had just established a Division of Child Welfare and they
would pay for a master's degree in social work on the condition that the applicant would work a
year for each thousand dollars they paid. Well, it was right down my alley because l had wanted
to work at home. So I went to what was then The New York School of Social Work. It is now
the Columbia University School of Social Work and it was a wonderful experience. The school
was located in the Carnegie mansion at 91st Street and Fifth Avenue. Yes, it was ideal for
studying.
So, I thoroughly enjoyed that master's level program and, for my master's thesis, I chose to
write a history of the development of public welfare in the Virgin Islands because we had
been owned by Denmark for two hundred and fifty years and our... although we were an
American territory and we had the American public welfare system, the overtones, the
attitudes and even some of the held-over programs reflected the Scandinavian approach to
social welfare. So that thesis was a joy to do. A very useful piece of work.
So then, I went home on completion of that and got my job back, first in child welfare, but
2
�then pretty soon I was asked to be a Supervisor of Public Assistance. So, I was in social work
on the islands and enjoying it very much when low and behold in 1955, January 3rd, the
newspaper carried an announcement that the United States had extended its Fulbright
Scholarship program to the Virgin Islands and people could apply. I had a master's degree. I
was free and single, uncommitted and I wanted to go to Europe. So, I applied for a
Fulbright Scholarship to go to Denmark to study the Scandinavian social welfare system
and programs and to see what tie-ins there were related to the islands and our systems. I
was awarded a Fulbright and left for a year's study in Denmark and that was exciting. It
was an independent study program. I went with other Fulbright scholars who were in
different fields and we all, for the first month, studied Danish language, Danish history,
Danish culture and had field trips to enhance that. I lived in a student residence with a
Danish speaking student, so the language experience was real for me. I was able to use it
and use it fluently. And then I planned my study with the help of professional social
workers over there to research the literature and to visit different program sites. So that as
I read about care for the elderly, for instance, I could go to a facility that cared for the
elderly and see how it was carried out. It was a fascinating experience. So I did that
piece of research then after the study period ended, I toured Europe with some other
students for two months or so.
Then I got home and went back to Social Welfare Department and the very next year,
1957, I petitioned to enter the Sisters of Charity and was accepted. That brings me into
entrance and the studying didn't stop there.
Sister Mary Ellen: I know you had some very rich experiences after you had entered the
Sisters of Charity where you could use a lot of this educational background you already
had…
Sister Louis Marie:
So I entered [the Congregation] with a master's degree in social work and my first
assignment was to teach in the Juniorate…which is a preparatory school for girls…and
that was a little bit funny. I had to teach intermediate algebra and solid geometry because
my high school transcript had showed good marks in math. But I wasn't a math major, so
that was a bit of a challenge. And I did my best with a lot of help from Sister Barbara
Garland who was a novice. But the algebra course was for elective students and they were
very bright. I think they knew more about it than I, but we managed.
After my year of novitiate I was asked to teach in the sociology department [of the College
of Saint Elizabeth] and that was much more in line with what I felt able to do competently. I
taught student nurses and I taught the junior professed sisters’ Saturday classes.
After I made final vows, my first mission was to St. Mary's Hospital [in Passaic, NJ] to work
in the Child Center. But I was out of teaching and back in natural social work. But this time
it was clinical social work. And my clinical preparation had not been much because on the
master’s level I was being prepared for child welfare work for the broader scope, rather than
narrow clinical. There were two very fine clinics, one for child guidance, emotionally
3
�disturbed children and work with their parents as well, and the other was for retarded
persons in the Bergen and Passaic County areas, diagnostic service and some counseling.
Both clinics were staffed with top-notch specialists and the diagnostic work over at the
retarded children's clinic was hooked right into St. Mary's Hospital so you could get a full
complement of medical and clinical work along with psychological and social study. That
was a most enriching experience. But I was a sort of the junior member on the team, if you
will. The only religious…maybe the only Catholic even. Certainly the only Black
woman…and not, as I said, trained for psychiatric social work. But then I did a lot of course
work at a mental health center in New York and that was very, very helpful. So I had a rich,
I'd say almost about twelve years actual training and preparation and experience in clinical
work. And at the center, we worked as a team with a child psychiatrist, clinical psychologist
and psychiatric social worker, so it was one of the richest experiences I could have dreamed
of.
Well, St. Mary's decided that we would develop an inpatient unit, so the child center would
be closed in favor of inpatient and that's where I felt that, look, if I'm going to be part of this,
I need to be up and running with everybody else. So I asked and received permission from
the Congregation to work towards a doctor of social welfare. I applied to Smith College
School of Social Work because they had a very good clinical program and my application
was accepted, but then I was invited up for a personal interview and that did not go well at
all. When I went up, the atmosphere was very, very cool. I didn't feel welcome at all. And
the people who interviewed me, the first woman who interviewed me made it quite clear that
if I were going to attend there as a student in the doctoral program, I would have to wear
secular clothes. Well, that didn't sit well with me at all. I, for me, wearing the habit of Sister
of Charity was important. The community wasn't requiring me to wear a habit. We were free
to wear what we chose. And it was my choice to wear a habit and veil – deliberately so
because I had felt from my clinical practice at St. Mary's Child Center that the habit made a
difference with people with emotional problems. For some persons, the habit reassured
them. They felt they knew what a nun was and that I could be trusted with their innermost
secrets and pains and worries and so on. For other people, the habit was a…not a deterrent,
but a stimulus. They would be angry and they would be…you know, and the anger would
come forth because of whatever feelings they had about religion or habits or nuns or
whatever…things as being Black, some people would react to that. Anyway, I was not about
to change my choice to suit Smith. And furthermore, I wasn't sure they wanted me because
they were kind of derogatory and, you know, they said if you need a wardrobe, we could
give you one…
Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, dear…
Sister Louis Marie:
Yes, so I figured, well, this I don't need. So I came back and decided I was not going to
Smith because I wanted to wear my habit and so I reapplied to Columbia, my alma mater.
And although it was late in the day, Columbia was into taking black students in their doctoral
program because Columbia was sitting on the edge of Harlem and making a big push to
include more minorities in their student body. So, I got in with no trouble. The only thing
4
�was, Columbia's program was not "clinical." I could make it in case work, but it was not as
highly clinical. But it was a good program. But more important was God's handling this
because when I went to Columbia, I decided to live at the International House where I had
lived as a secular on the master's level and where I had loved the experience. So, I went to
International House, habit and all, and found there a delightful sister, a Sister of Saint Ann, a
native of India. Anyway, she was bright as anything. She already had a Ph.D. in economics,
but to teach in India, she needed a Ph.D. or some education courses, so she was going to
teach in Pelham…Sister Mary Benjamin was her name. She was in habit, too. And we got to
be great friends and we got to be accepted at “I House” as two little nuns…
“I House,” at the same time, had changed in composition from when I'd been there in the early
1950s…There were many more Africans and Asians and…it always was international…the
preponderance in earlier years had been European. So now there are African Americans and
everything. So, of course, we had a Black caucus going. We made a contribution there. But
at school, at Columbia, the campus now was moved up from out of the Carnegie
mansion and on to the Morningside Heights campus. And they had, on the master's level,
a very active Black caucus, a Black students’ organization and the few Blacks of us who
were on a doctoral level met with them because they needed lots of help. Many of them
had been admitted without the kind of solid preparation you need…particularly
communication skills, so we would tutor them and make weekend retreats with them.
I, then, got an orientation that I had not had when I came to the Sisters of Charity in the
1950s. I was on this campus [the Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth] when you saw very
few blacks. Very few…even in service positions. And there was one other Black sister,
Lorena Tyson. And then when I went to St. Mary's Hospital…the clients who were from
around there were very few Blacks. So I had not been attuned to the Black situation
really. But when I went to “I House” and back to Columbia and met the Blacks there…it
was the education I needed much more than a clinical education to put me in touch with
the world that was. And…it was the late 1960s…and right around that time, the National
Black Catholic Clergy Caucus got organized in April '68 and the National Black Catholics
Conference in August '68. So, by that time, I was finding out who I am as a Black religious
woman and it was a marvelous gift from God. I mean, how the pieces fit
together…unbelievable. So with Afro studies, the course work was good, but the living
experience was infinitely more important. And I finished the course work in two years and
had a dissertation to do and I was really tired of being a student then. And my job at St.
Mary's…I left because I thought I was going to have go into the inpatient psychiatric work.
My job was no longer existent.
And one time I visited Convent Station and [Sister Hildegarde Marie Mahoney, president of
the College of Saint Elizabeth] said, "I wish you were free." I said, "Why?" She said,
"Because we need somebody for the Upward Bound program." And I said, "I am free." So I
came back to Convent as a Director of the Upward Bound program, succeeding Sister
Lucille Anne [Egan] and I was beautifully prepared for it. And it was a thrilling and exciting
experience and the program was one of the finest in the region. I mean, we were rated as the
third best for many years. And it faced many challenges. We ran an all-girls program,
working with "disadvantaged" minority students, mostly Black from inner-city Newark. And
5
�then, after a few years, the government decided that the programs had to be co-ed. We either
would run a co-ed program of get out of the [program]. So, I prayed a lot…and was consulted
and the President of the College and government agreed we could do coed program. So I
prayed mightily. The program would be co-ed, but the college would remain single sex. So
we ran it and we ran it successfully. The women in Santa Rita Hall and the men at
[indecipherable]. And it got to be a great program. We lost the funding for it…I do not know
why, except that many people in the field thought well, with cycle sight of our ten years that
it was time for somebody else... I moved from Upward Bound to the Educational
Opportunity Fund directorship then and the person who succeeded me at Upward Bound
failed to get funding for the program. So, I moved to the EOF briefly... maybe about a
year…and then was invited to go home to the Virgin Islands.
Anyway, for my doctoral dissertation then, since I had finished the course work and had
worked with Upward Bound, I got permission to do a study on what impact the Upward
Bound program had on students who were coming from inner-cities north at the time of
Black liberation. The study was to explore which influence would exert more influence
on young people. The Black Liberation Movement – they were in the thick of it…in
Newark…shattering bombs and everything during the Black Revolution – or Upward
Bound. Upward Bound was an invitation to them to join the establishment, you know,
to become part of the mainstream. And Black Liberation was not going that route.
So, it was exciting to work with my own measuring instrument and everything. I got to
study population, not just from our program, but from Princeton, Rutgers and our college
segment which had been initially for women. Princeton had been initially all men. Rutgers
was always co-ed, so it was good. Anyway, the study showed that more people responded to
the establishment poll than the other poll. Anyhow, it was a good study. And students in the
social work program in the islands have used both the master's thesis and the doctoral
dissertation as research documents for some of their studies. So that's gratifying.
Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, of course it is.
Sister Louis Marie:
Anyway, I got an invitation to go home and I was given permission to accept it. And my
first invitation was to serve as a member of the parish team at Saints Peter and Paul. And I
said to the pastor, a native of the Virgin Islands, "I haven't lived in a parish for the last
twenty years. I don't even know what…" He said, "You don't have to know." He said,
"You'd be on my team and you'll just do it." The Congregation asked for something in
writing, so he sent a list of ten things. He said, "You can do any, all or none of these." And
so I went home and was winging it. And that pastor got changed the next spring.
Sister Mary Ellen: What were some of the things you had to do... that he had on that list to
do?
Sister Louis Marie: Develop a community in the western end of the island. People who lived
out west were coming up to the cathedral and he thought maybe it was time to develop a new
parish down there…develop some kind of community. So we used to have weekend Masses
6
�and [unintelligible], but the people really did not want that. They lived down there but they
worked in town and they wanted to be part of the cathedral. Some of the other things that I
did was a prison ministry. Got a group of people who wanted to go to a jail and we went
every week and that, too, was a good experience. We would sing and preach the
scriptures…pray with them and gosh, what are some of the other things we did?
Eucharistic minister, the usual pastoral things. But it didn't go too well because it was not
really a team. The pastor was a very strong man and some people…you have to be a
team…you have to have a team personality. I don't think he was a team person. So I wasn't
integrated into any team.
But the bishop of the diocese, [Bishop Edward John Harper of the Diocese of Saint
Thomas], had always been addressing having me in a diocese and he had written to the
Congregation years before to ask them to let me come, since I was a social worker and they
had told him no. So, when I got there and I wasn't too busy after the pastor was transferred,
the bishop asked me would I serve as a family life director. He had no family life program. I
said, "Sure." And through the bishop, I learned what natural family planning was. He said to
me there's a conference on the [Billings Ovulation Method]. I didn't even know what the man
was talking about. And would you go? I said, "Sure." So I went to New York and I ran into
[Sister Mary Rosalie Curran, SC] who was teaching NFP (Natural Family Planning). And
she gave me a crash course and I met big name people in the field and so that started me off on
preparation to become qualified as a Natural Family Planning instructor. You had to take
special training and I got trained by some of the best people and went back to my diocese.
Then one thing led to another. We started a permanent program there and I was asked to
show the faculty, in fact to teach them, you know, basic counseling skills that they might be
called on to use and I also taught them all about humanity, so that they could be prepared to
teach people that. We graduated a lot of human sexuality education for young people in our
schools and in the public schools for other church groups and I mean non-denominational
groups. That was a big thing then.
So, family life apostolate was getting into a lot of church work that required social work
skills and at the same time I served on a lot of boards and committees in the civic
community, you know, as a good representative for the Church's teaching and as a native and
as a woman. So then when our second bishop was appointed, [Bishop Sean O’Malley, OFM
Cap.], he asked me to serve as Chancellor for the Diocese. “Now look,” I said, “I only know
what a chancery is, Bishop Harper hadn't had a chancery per se. He did his work in his
office at the bishop's residence. I helped, as his assistant, but with, you know…” So Bishop
O'Malley said, "If I can be bishop, you can be chancellor." [unintelligible] That I was a
native and a Black. I was a woman. I was religious. I was a social worker. A combination of
many, many things that God had put into my life, you know. So I was placed to be of
service and never quite knew... never quite had a job description for chancellor, so it ended
up I did whatever the bishop called on me to do.
So there then we had Hurricane Hugo. And that knocked St. Croix for a loop. And the
Catholic Social Services had gotten a small grant to do a mental health program in St. Croix.
And with the hurricane, it could not get started. It was impossible. So Bishop asked me to
rewrite the proposal, but to restructure it so that it could be done on St. Thomas. So, I did that
7
�and then began to serve as a head of the mental health program, funded by the government
but run by the church. So I did mental health work for a while, using all the background
experience and preparation I had ten years ago. And then, what happened next? Next, we
got a new bishop. [Bishop Elliot Griffin Thomas], a high school classmate of mine. He was
in the public school and he had been at the top of his class and he said when the students
came up from St. Peter and Paul, try as he could, he couldn't get further than number
three in the line-up.
Sister Mary Ellen: I see…
Sister Louis Marie:
We've been good friends all along. So, his story is fascinating, too. He was a convert
from Catholicism. Anyway, Bishop Elliot Thomas is our first Black bishop and from the
area and he had been unanimously elected administrator by the priests there until the
Pope named him bishop. Well, as administrator, he inherited me as chancellor. I enjoyed
immensely working with Bishop Thomas, but then in March 1996, the Catholic Charities of
the Virgin Islands ran into some serious problems and Bishop asked me would I be interim
director while they tried to get it sorted out. So, I served for a year as interim director and
chancellor, and then by 1997 I knew I couldn't do both. So I asked Bishop to relieve me of
being chancellor so that I could give full attention to Catholic Charities which so needed
what I had to offer. I was a professional social worker, I had a doctorate in social welfare,
which wasn't clinical, which is what I needed for this kind of administrative work and so he
said, "yes."
So, as of March 1997, I am serving as the Executive Director of Catholic Charities in the
Virgin Islands. And that brings us up to date.
Sister Mary Ellen: Oh, fantastic. I want thank you very, very much, Sister Louis, for sharing
all these wonderful experiences.
8
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station
Oral History
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Interviewee
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Bryan, Sister Louis Marie
Interviewer
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Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen
Original Format
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transcript
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Sister Louis Marie Bryan, S.C. Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Bryan, Sister Louis Marie, S.C.; U.S. Virgin Islands; social work; Black sisters
Description
An account of the resource
Description of her education, her career in social work, her experiences as a Black sister
Creator
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Bryan, Sister Louis Marie, S.C.; Gleason, Sister Mary Ellen, S.C.
Source
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Date
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January 26, 1998
Contributor
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Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor)
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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English
Type
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Oral History
Identifier
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Sister Louis Marie Bryan, S.C. describes her early life, education and experiences as a Black sister
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
January 26, 1998
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Social Service
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PDF Text
Text
Interviewer: Sister Anita Constance, SC
Interviewee: Sister Eleanor Maria Pettit, SC
Date: 1993
Editor: Sister Noreen Neary, SC
Date edited: November 18, 2020
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
The thing with Hasbrouck Heights was that it was an accident that Corpus Christi School opened.
Now, I don't know if that's funny or not, but in 1928 there were two Father Clarks and a Father
Martin. The Father Clarks were brothers. One was in Ridgefield, one was in Hasbrouck Heights.
The Ridgefield one and Father Martin, who was in East Orange, both were opening schools and
Mother Grata had promised them sisters. But the man [Father Andrew Clark] in Hasbrouck
Heights was a little annoyed when he knew they were getting them and he wasn't. He had no
school at all. But he went up to Convent and Mother - she told the story - she was busy and she
couldn't see him. So she sent word down thinking it was Father John Clark, his brother, that not to
worry, he would have his sisters. And she lived up to it. And now, as I look back, I think it was
pretty hard. But on the other hand, the Lord was with us, I guess. [Sister Anna Raphael Bradley],
who had been in Hoboken for 35 years, brand new superior, and [Sister Mary Avelline Carrigan]
and I were novices and they sent the three of us to Hasbrouck Heights. And when we got there,
there was no school. There was a Lyceum building and there was an auditorium in there and two
cloakrooms, one on either side of the entrance. So Anna Raphael taught the sixth grade in the
auditorium. I taught first and second in one of the cloakrooms and Avelline had third and fourth
in the other cloakroom.
Sr. Anita:
It's typical of Sisters of Charity doing with what you have, making do with what you had.
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
That's right. But it was hard. And we really didn't have a convent. We were renovating a little
house, which was in the spot where the school there is.
Sr. Anita:
Where did you live then?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Well, we stayed ... There were bedrooms in this little house on the upper side, but they were
partly furnished. We stayed in the convent, we had in the rectory. And until, maybe it was a
week or so before. And my famSr. Anita:
Did you eat with the priest or did you have to eat separately?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Housekeepers had us separately. And my mother ... We lived in Newark and my mother used to
come over to us. My sister came over, did the wash for us. And it was really very, very hard. We
had to get up and have the wash out before we went to school. It was awfully hard, but I don't
think we appre- ... Avelline, poor little Avelline, Lord have mercy on her, at Christmas time she
�couldn't take it anymore. So she was changed to Roxbury, Massachusetts. Anna Raphael left in
June, she was changed to Roxbury, Massachusetts, became Avelline's superior there. And I don't
know why I was there for three years, but I was there for three years.
Sr. Anita:
Well, I guess they thought you were good at what you were doing.
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
I don't know. I don't know. Well, I had had the first grade in the boys’ house [Saint Joseph School
for Boys in Convent Station, NJ], which became the Juniorate after.
Sr. Anita:
Oh, yeah.
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
That was the last year they had that open, [Sister Anne Gertrude Coleman] and Mary [inaudible]
and I were Sr. Anita:
Went to Hasbrouck Heights then…
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Novice. We were only novices.
Sr. Anita:
Were you a novice the three years you were there?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
No. I entered in [1927], we got the habit in July ‘27. And then in September, we went down to
the boys’ house. And the following September that we went to, 1928, we went to Hasbrouck
Heights.
Sr. Anita:
As a novice.
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sr. Anita:
And then you taught as a novice, made your vows and went back.
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then I was already there for three years, and then I went to
[Mount Carmel School in Ridgewood, NJ]. But it was hard. But as you look back now…
�Sr. Anita:
What was hard about it?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Hmm?
Sr. Anita:
What was hard about it?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
My Lord, we had to teach school, work, do our housekeeping, everything. We had nothing. And
we had finally had it ready for sister came after, it was only two months. Because she left when
Anna Raphael did, that came and cooked for us after. My mother couldn't come over and live
with us, but she came over.
Sr. Anita:
Because you were working from scratch, right?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Yeah. Oh yeah, we had nothing. But we had no chapel, but he was putting a little chapel in
the house, which was a God-send. And we had problems there.
Sr. Anita:
That's all right, only I hear it.
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Oh. I think he was a little unfortunate. He used to have his problems. And sometimes he'd be very
kind to us and another time he would be ... he'd come in and shut the heat off on us. And we had
to be in school at 8:30. Some mornings we didn't have Mass until eight o'clock and we'd have to
get over to school. And then I used to leave at 11:30 to ... We fixed the dinner the night before,
some of the things. And then I came over at 11:30 and cooked what had to be cooked and really
had a dinner at night. But it was, now as I look back, I'm glad it happened, because it certainly
gave you something that ... I think it did, it made you a little stronger, I guess.
Sr. Anita:
Like a fortitude of forbearance.
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Yeah. Right. But you didn't think of it that way at that time, we were too young. Well, I was 22
when I entered. I wasn't a baby and I had worked, for which I'm grateful. But then after the three
years, things went on normally. But it wasn't easy. And I think the people in Bergen County at
that time weren't too happy to have a Catholic school. They weren't ready for it then.
�Sr. Anita:
Oh, really? Was it one of the first ones in the area?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
I think so. I think it was. There was no Teterboro, no nothing, anything there. It was all farmland,
all farmland. Even Ridgewood, when I went to Ridgewood. We taught Sunday school in Glen
Rock and Paramus and in Midland Park up that way. There were no schools there at all, and that
was 1930, 27, 20, 30. In early 30s.
Sr. Anita:
If you were to say, like your experience in Hasbrouck Heights, how would you look at it as really
a typical experience of the Sisters of Charity life? How do you think that that would be so typical
of what Sisters of Charity would get into or would be their kind of a ministry or experience?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Well, I think it was a good thing, a good ministry. And I think once they realized what it was, it
was ... I'm grateful I had it, to be honest with you. And that was just the first couple of- And then
Avelline and I were friends from the novitiate. And when she left, I was uptight. Then after that
[Sister Margaret Francis McAllister] came, and after that [Sister Therese Concilio Carlin] came.
And in those three years we had the two superiors, [Sister Stella Maris McGaughey] was our
superior after Anna. And she was a poor little sister, she was a beautiful [inaudible] years after.
Sr. Anita:
So this was like the pioneer days of the community.
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
I guess. Well, I think, look, she was a lot older than that. But I'm sure a lot of the sisters had a
harder time then. Yeah. But I always felt it was kind of accidental that it opened, but God
permitted it and He wanted it because that's one of the nicest places we have today.
Sr. Anita:
But I guess that priest would have prayed, “Providence can provide, Providence did provide,
Providence will provide.”
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure.
Sr. Anita:
He certainly must've felt he pulled a good one when he walked out of it. Who was the Mother
then?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
[Mother Mary Grata Mullaney], the greatest Mother we ever had.
�Sr. Anita:
Was she wonderful?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
God, she was the greatest one.
Sr. Anita:
Why was she good?
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Kind and thoughtful. My father died, I went home while I was in Hasbrouck Heights. I made my
vows in July and my father died June 6th. And I went home for my first visit to his funeral and we
weren't allowed to do really anything in those days. But my mother said to ... I wasn't allowed to
go to the cemetery. He's buried up in Connecticut. And she asked me if she thought I could get
permission after November 1st, I had buried my dad, if I could go up to the visit the grave in
Norfolk, Connecticut. And Stella Maris said, "Hey, write to Mother and ask her." I wrote to her
and she wrote me a letter within three days saying ... My mother was planning a day trip. And she
said, "You may go with your good mother." And she said, "You do not have to come back the
same day."
Sr. Anita:
That was extraordinary in those days.
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
There's a Sisters’ ... The Sisters of Mercy have a con- Imagine how she investigated. The Sisters
of Mercy have a convent in Torrington, Connecticut, which is right near there. And she said, "You
may stay there overnight and come back the next day." My mother almost died. And my mother
was the most beautiful letter writer. She wrote all her life, she never stopped writing. And she
wrote to mother in gratitude. She was so ... That was unusual.
Sr. Anita:
And this was to visit your father's ...
Sr. Eleanor Maria:
Papa's grave. My whole family's buried up there.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth, Convent Station
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
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Pettit, Sister Eleanor Maria, S.C.
Interviewer
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Constance, Sister Anita, S.C.
Original Format
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cassette tape
Duration
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0:08:15
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Sister Eleanor Maria Pettit, S.C. Oral History
Subject
The topic of the resource
Pettit, Sister Eleanor Maria, S.C.; Corpus Christi School Hasbrouck Heights, NJ; Mother M. Grata Mullaney
Description
An account of the resource
Description of the opening of a new school in 1928 and the kindness of Mother Mary Grata Mullaney
Creator
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Pettit, Sister Eleanor Maria, S.C.; Constance, Sister Anita, S.C.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
circa 1993
Contributor
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Neary, Sister Noreen, S.C. (Editor)
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Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth
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Audio/mp3
Language
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English
Type
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Oral History
Identifier
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Sister Eleanor Maria Pettit, S.C. describes the opening of a new school in 1928 and the kindness of Mother Mary Grata Mullaney
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
circa 1993
Education
Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth